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[superseohyun]

Who will benefit from whitewashing a random guard NPC which plays so little role in the game?

probably just some lazy mistake.

 

[Famassu]

This make me laugh more than anything.

I can see why people take offense to white-washing a game that has already been released, but I personally find it hilarious that instead of spending time fixing the product on a technical level to make sure it runs swell on new hardware they are going back and editing minor character models of all things. Was the dark skin having a texture problem or something?

That's really not how game development of these remasters work. The person who changed the skin tone was quite likely not someone who has anything to do with the more technical aspects of the game. Nor it is the kind of change that would take all that long to make, so even if he/she did have something to do with engine work, it's not like this particular change was something that made or broke the port.

Besides, doesn't this run at a fairly smooth 30fps vs. the uneven performance of the PS3 version? So what is there to fix anymore than they already have?

 

[Amon37]

Is the game done? Maybe they just add the darkness later. This is Saudis at the alpha stage.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Harlequin]

Could this maybe just be an accidental fuck-up? Like, maybe a lot of the secondary characters didn't have SSS skin materials (haven't played the game so I have no idea if that's actually the case) and they decided to go back in there and give them that for the remaster which meant changing the skin materials and someone just didn't pay attention to what the original characters looked like and simply assumed they were creating materials for white characters? I mean, something along those lines doesn't sound completely implausible to me.

 

[jWILL253]

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait...

Are we really, REALLY gonna have three pages full of people using Rupert Murdoch logic to explain this inexplicable change by Cage & Co?

Nah. Fuck David Cage and QD.

 

[dragonbane]

Now this?

This is fucking unbelieveable. Fuck you Cage/QD, you racist wankers.

Nah. Fuck David Cage and QD.

GAF getting more embarrassing to read with every passing day lol

Yup, just like Navajo and Mogadishu. Beyond was pretty racist/stereotypical, but I attribute that to the incompetence of Cage and his decisionmakers.

You still havent explained how Mogadishu was racist. But keep fighting I guess.

Could this maybe just be an accidental fuck-up? Like, maybe a lot of the secondary characters didn't have SSS skin materials (haven't played the game so I have no idea if that's actually the case) and they decided to go back in there and give them that for the remaster which meant changing the skin materials and someone just didn't pay attention to what the original characters looked like and simply assumed they were creating materials for white characters? I mean, something along those lines doesn't sound completely implausible to me.

This is the only explanation that does make sense. Certainly way more than someone stepping in and ordering white wash for just this scene for a freaking remaster.

 

[MrCunningham]

It looks like they also narrowed his nose slightly and made the lips less pronounced. Putting the two images in photoshop... yeah, it looks like they did. The alteration isn't huge, but yeah, they gave him a little plastic surgery.

 

[dragonbane]

It looks like they also narrowed his nose slightly and made the lips less pronounced. Putting the two images in photoshop... yeah, it looks like they did.

They re-did his entire model, which is used about 3-4 times throughout the scene. They also left another model alone, which is also used about 3 times (a fact Eurogamer conveniently ignores).

 

[Marvel]

Holy shit.

 

[Coll1der]

Could it be a placeholder?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Who will benefit from whitewashing a random guard NPC which plays so little role in the game?

probably just some lazy mistake.

Never assume laziness or a mistake in such instances. That's what some rely on to cover their intentions...

 

[Chû Totoro]

getting that hollywood treatment

Perfect.

Actually it should be the new claim of the western gaming industry big studios.

 

[dragonbane]

Never assume laziness or a mistake in such instances. That's what some rely on to cover their intentions...

But we probably should when they didn't even replace everyone. Especially when the ones they did replace actually needed replacing because they looked kinda bad up close on PS3. At worst the artist decided he wanted things to be more varied across the 4 generic NPC models that they use for this scene and since he had to re-do the model anyway he went with a lighter tone for it.

Could it be a placeholder?

It's intended as a replacement, as the PS3 model wasn't up-to-par. Consistent with other texture changes in the same scene, it seems the artists had complete creative freedom to update textures the way they saw fit. Instead of just improving existing carpet textures for instance, the artists created an entirely new design for them. It seems prior texture was maybe not considered while doing this and they worked again based off concept art. Hence this coming down to one individual choosing this look most likely.

 

[Lime]

dragonbane, I know you ardently love and support Quantic Dream, but in this case I think this is something you don't need to defend and just think of it as an unfortunate thing that happened (unintentionally or not). It's just a game company that has made a mistake, no need to spend your time trying to rationalize its implications.

You still havent explained how Mogadishu was racist. But keep fighting I guess.

It's the typical dumb portrayal of African characters as either victims or brutal militia/savages.

 

[RipperGrim]

It's the typical dumb portrayal of African characters as either victims or brutal militia/savages.

Sounds like Mogadishu alright.

 

[CryptiK]

Who will benefit from whitewashing a random guard NPC which plays so little role in the game?

probably just some lazy mistake.

Don't bring logic in here.

 

[YianGaruga]

Full official statement from Cage

It has been brought to our attention that someone on Twitter published screenshots from BEYOND: TWO SOULS PS4 with comments mentioning that some characters in the Embassy scene would have been "white-washed" compared to the original PS3 version. Some internet sites also echoed this tweet.
So here is the explanation:
Beyond is a game featuring 300+ unique characters. The cast features many different races, including some Arab characters in the scene called THE EMBASSY. The scene takes place in what is obviously a middle-eastern embassy, with characters who are obviously from the middle-east, wearing obviously Arabic clothes and speaking obviously Arabic.
What was reported is that a couple of guards and passers-by in the Embassy appear to have a lighter skin compared to the original game.
This is due to two reasons:
1. the lighting has changed as well as the skin shader we use, leading to slightly lighter skins in general (which can also be seen on Jodie's white skin), although some black skins are a little bit darker (which has not been reported...).
2. All characters have been upgraded on the PS4 version compared to the PS3, which sometimes led to creating a new face that can be different from the previous one (as well as different clothes or accessories). The skin tone or type of few characters may have changed in the process, although only a couple of characters out of 300 have seen their skin getting slightly lighter (without changing their racial type to keep the consistency of the characterisation).
Talking about the skin colour of two guards in the context of a game like Beyond is absurd, and for me personally, upsetting. Quantic Dream has been actively promoting cultural, gender and racial diversity in all of its past and present games, as well as in our own company. Quantic Dream is a studio in which people from around the globe, of all races and religions work together and share the same passion for crafting meaningful emotional experiences.
We sadly regret that we have to justify ourselves when the skin color of a passer-by has slightly changed for technical reasons, but we would like to reassure our fans and tell them that Quantic Dream will continue to promote racial and gender diversity in games, as well as positive human emotions and values.
- Quantic Dream

Source Eurogamer
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...quantic-dream-addresses-ps4-skin-tone-changes

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Good on QD for addressing the matter head-on. Racism isn't reliant on intent.

 

[Ricky_R]

Quick, someone make a thread about black skins being darker now.

 

[nbnt]

Full official statement from Cage

Source Eurogamer
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...n-tone-changes

"2. All characters have been upgraded on the PS4 version compared to the PS3.."

Are you saying that whitewashing is "upgrading"?

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Never assume laziness or a mistake in such instances. That's what some rely on to cover their intentions...

It's just a lazy mistake, a one off.

Just like that movie set in Hawaii where all the named characters were caucasian was a one off, lazy mistake.

Or Exodus, set in ancient Egypt, where none of the main characters are played by Arabs. It's just a momentary lapse into laziness.

You need to stop looking at this repeating pattern of mistakes in western entertainment media because they're all one off, unrelated incidents and you need to be more like that guy who doesn't see skin colour and accept Chinese actresses playing geisha because you're colour blind therefore they all look the same to you.

 

[vpance]

Full official statement from Cage

Source Eurogamer
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...quantic-dream-addresses-ps4-skin-tone-changes

We sadly regret that we have to justify ourselves when the skin color of a passer-by has slightly changed for technical reasons, but we would like to reassure our fans and tell them that Quantic Dream will continue to promote racial and gender diversity in games, as well as positive human emotions and values.

.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

It looks like they also narrowed his nose slightly and made the lips less pronounced. Putting the two images in photoshop... yeah, it looks like they did. The alteration isn't huge, but yeah, they gave him a little plastic surgery.

Yeah, there has definitely been some changes to the nose. The 'lighting engine change' thing does not explain this.

Quick, someone make a thread about black skins being darker now.

I'd be interested to know if this is true. I mean, Jodie's skin is fractionally lighter, but nowhere near comparable to the changes with the guard.

 

[rockman zx]

Full official statement from Cage



Source Eurogamer
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...quantic-dream-addresses-ps4-skin-tone-changes

I can't believe they have to answer to this BS polemic, good answer in any case.

 

[HMD]

Oh thank god they adressed the skin colour change, now unto more offensive stereotypes in that same scene, oh wait, those don't matter to Gaf so whatever.

 

[Dunkley]

All characters have been upgraded on the PS4 version compared to the PS3, which sometimes led to creating a new face that can be different from the previous one (as well as different clothes or accessories). The skin tone or type of few characters may have changed in the process, although only a couple of characters out of 300 have seen their skin getting slightly lighter (without changing their racial type to keep the consistency of the characterisation).

The reason is why though, they had a base to work with and still intentionally made their skin lighter?

Why? I wasn't going to butt in since I figured it was a mistake but this makes it seem like it was legit intentional.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I can't believe they have to answer to this BS polemic, good answer in any case.

Yeah, poor them

It's not like this has been a problem across various media for a long time, and addressing it must have been real hard. The snide, indignant aspects of the comment were real justified

Oh thank god they adressed the skin colour change, now unto more offensive stereotypes in that same scene, oh wait, those don't matter to Gaf so whatever.

No one's mentioned there game's poor handling of other cultures on GAF before?

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Who will benefit from whitewashing a random guard NPC which plays so little role in the game?

probably just some lazy mistake.

I guess you didn't go to the actual article, because it's not just a single guard. It's the darker skinned people in the scene in general. They almost all got tweaked designs and skin lightened. That's not a mistake.

 

[GorillaJu]

The reason is why though, they had a base to work with and still intentionally made their skin lighter?

Why? I wasn't going to butt in since I figured it was a mistake but this makes it seem like it was legit intentional.

No, that doesn't at all make it seem intentional, it makes it coincidental. As he stated earlier, some dark skins become darker in the newer version, but no one mentions that.

Why the fuck would anyone make random guards and passers by lighter skinned. What agenda could that possibly serve?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

No, that doesn't at all make it seem intentional, it makes it coincidental. As he stated earlier, some dark skins become darker in the newer version, but no one mentions that.

Why the fuck would anyone make random guards and passers by lighter skinned. What agenda could that possibly serve?

Whether it's intentional isn't the real problem.

 

[Finaika]

Talking about the skin colour of two guards in the context of a game like Beyond is absurd, and for me personally, upsetting.

Is he calling us absurd?

 

[HMD]

No one's mentioned there game's poor handling of other cultures on GAF before?

Like my comment said, I'm specifically talking about this scene, and I as a Saudi didn't find the skin colour change offensive, in fact I found it more accurate.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

No, that doesn't at all make it seem intentional, it makes it coincidental. As he stated earlier, some dark skins become darker in the newer version, but no one mentions that.

Why the fuck would anyone make random guards and passers by lighter skinned. What agenda could that possibly serve?

It doesn't need to be 'intentional' or serve an agenda, in fact that's probably why this happened. Caucasian is the default setting in western society which is why whitewashing keeps happening, the presence of a brown/black/Asian character needs to be intentional because they're out of the ordinary. It's just assumed that everybody is white unless you can come up with a story reason for them not to be.

Even if you want to go down the unintentional route, in the eurogamer piece that kicked it all off, brown characters became white but not one of the white party guests in the video ended up being remodelled as brown for the PS4 version because that would require 'intent' instead of skewing towards the pale end of the spectrum because white is normal.

 

[GorillaJu]

It doesn't need to be 'intentional' or serve an agenda, in fact that's probably why this happened. Caucasian is the default setting in western society which is why whitewashing keeps happening, the presence of a brown/black/Asian character needs to be intentional because they're out of the ordinary. It's just assumed that everybody is white unless you can come up with a story reason for them not to be.

Even if you want to go down the unintentional route, in the eurogamer piece that kicked it all off, brown characters became white but not one of the white party guests in the video ended up being remodelled as brown for the PS4 version because that would require 'intent' instead of skewing towards the pale end of the spectrum because white is normal.

Dude no one became white I have no idea what you're talking about. They are Saudi people and under a different lighting engine *in one scene* their skin appears lighter. Just like if you stand under a stronger light. No one became Caucasian, look at the character models, they're clearly Saudi.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Dude no one became white I have no idea what you're talking about. They are Saudi people and under a different lighting engine *in one scene* their skin appears lighter. Just like if you stand under a stronger light. No one became Caucasian, look at the character models, they're clearly Saudi.

Then pretend he said "Caucasian-looking," or "whiter" instead of Caucasian, and the point being made still stands. The examples in the OP are beyond lighting gdifferences — if you can see their lighter skin tone, then you do have an idea what Boban's talking about.

 

[YianGaruga]

Not sure if people clicked the article, there are direct comparisons supplied by Quantic

Top PS3
Bottom PS4

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Dude no one became white I have no idea what you're talking about. They are Saudi people and under a different lighting engine *in one scene* their skin appears lighter. Just like if you stand under a stronger light. No one became Caucasian, look at the character models, they're clearly Saudi.

That's a fucking strong light then.

 

[GorillaJu]

That's a fucking strong light then.

... It's not the same person, man it's a completely different persons face. And he doesn't look whiter at all, he still looks Saudi. Look at his uniform, and the woman's skin and hair. It's all changed slightly.

 

[Aurongel]

Seems like an odd choice to stir up controversy around something that was barely a controversy to begin with. That's what we call the "Streisand Effect". I'm not entirely convinced this isn't just a difference in lighting or some weird RNG thing for NPC generation.

 

[Harlequin]

Honestly, comparing this to something like Exodus or Gods of Egypt is blowing it WAY out of proportion. I can sort of see why people think it's still problematic, even though it's clearly unintentional, but I can also see why Cage would call it absurd when people throw around comparisons like that. The characters in question are clearly still Arabs.

 

[Dali]

Their explanation is basically them copping to the change. The shader's effect is marginal. The bulk of the difference is the result of an intentional "upgrade." They intentionally changed the color and facial features of the character. I don't think the company is particularly close minded given the romantic options in the game, but their reasons for the change aren't proper justification.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

... It's not the same person, man it's a completely different persons face. And he doesn't look whiter at all, he still looks Saudi. Look at his uniform, and the woman's skin and hair. It's all changed slightly.

And he doesn't look whiter at all, he still looks Saudi.

Look at his uniform, and the woman's skin and hair. It's all changed slightly.

Yes. To make him look whiter.

How are you not getting this?

 

[GorillaJu]

Because it doesn't look whiter. He doesn't look like a white person. Things appearing lighter in different lighting conditions doesn't actually mean their race changed.

 

[dragonbane]

It's the typical dumb portrayal of African characters as either victims or brutal militia/savages.

Well, Mogadishu is kinda a war zone. But yeah, let's move on lol

I'd be interested to know if this is true. I mean, Jodie's skin is fractionally lighter, but nowhere near comparable to the changes with the guard.

Yeah it is, you can see it upstairs during the same scene on another guard. He appears darker toned due to changed lighting. This is mostly explained due to their new skin shader obviously. It interpretes values differently than the old one, which also results in the massively different DoF strength in certain scenes, sometimes its non-existent anymore, because the new DoF filter interprets the values differently (they didn't actually adjust the values that are set by cutscenes, just the filter). I assume the new skin shader mostly affects the extremes and doesn't portray the middle ground well unless specifically adjusted. Since the guards got their faces upgraded on PS4 (unlike most NPCs) it might have just defaulted to that tone as well since a new material file was created from scratch. They did that for many low res passer-bys and most look a lot different.

 

[Dunkley]

Not sure if people clicked the article, there are direct comparisons supplied by Quantic

Top PS3
Bottom PS4

Nice, there's our guard from the OP:

So nope, not the lighting, not the skin shading, definitely a new texture along with some changes to nose and lip shape like seen in the in-game comparison pic.

 

[Henrar]

Yes. To make him look whiter.

How are you not getting this?

Sure, they changed all their shaders (look at the background colors), to make sure that intentionally whiter Saudis blend in and nobody will notice...

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Reading the official PR I would be fucking naive to believe they couldn't fix this if they wanted to. Of the 1000 effects they employ in games to achieve every effect imaginable they can't fix the one that affects the skin tone of the dark characters? Yeah okay.

Whatever excuse they wanna present for not fixing it doesn't matter. If they know its an issue and they won't fix it then they are condoning its fine to lighten up dark characters. Everything else is just justifying some bullshit.

 

[Marvel]

Pardon me, but the lighting in that shot is identicle?

Edit: nvm seems to be a different npc

 

[Zabka]

Now that a guard's skin has been lightened the racists will buy Beyond. Cage's plan has worked.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Their explanation is basically them copping to the change. The shader's effect is marginal. The bulk of the difference is the result of an intentional "upgrade." They intentionally changed the color and facial features of the character. I don't think the company is particularly close minded given the romantic options in the game, but their reasons for the change aren't proper justification.

I agree about QD being generally open-minded, so Cage's response seems like the indignation you hear when someone does something that's more or less indistinguishable from something racist (e.g. Holloywood's whitewashing) without intending to be racist/evoke historically racist practices, but won't just say "we didn't mean to, we'll be more mindful of what we do from now on."

People get defensive when questioned about whether something they did was racist