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[Mexen]

I absolutely love bloodborne, I love it so much, its probably one of my favourite games ever by now. But I started Dark Souls 2 on PS4 the other day after getting it cheap from gamestop, played about 10 hours, and man its not good, I think I'm gonna quit. I mean, I don't know if sucks is exactly the right word for it, but its so fucking obtuse, frustrating, the combat is so dull and bullshit, drives me mad. Am I a peasant who doesn't understand good mechanics or what?

Here's 10 enemies to try and dodge that you could kill in two hits but you can't get them all before they get you isn't fun. Horde enemies just aren't fun like this.

My room-mate's friend complained about the same thing. I am yet to play it myself because I am not done with Dark Souls. Considering I have not played Bloodborne yet either, perhaps I should play Dark Souls 2 first..

 

[terrible]

The best Dark Souls player in the world, UrbanOrb, made a movie-length video about why Dark Souls 2 is bad, OP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGLBk7O8o5c

I don't even understand his first negative. He's saying there's input lag and also sometimes your character does stuff you don't tell them to do? Never experienced that in the PS4 version once.

 

[Durante]

Dark Souls 2 is fantastic.

Every Souls game has some tradeoffs, but DS2 is the one which appeals to me most overall.

 

[Spence]

I loved DS2, I view all the souls games as different games, they all share some similarities but really just play differently. I went into DS2 without comparing it to anything and it was a very enjoyable experience for me, it had a great sense of exploration to it.

 

[Greddleok]

I think I like Dark Souls 2 more than Bloodborne. I tried going back to Bloodborne with the DLC, and man...it's just kinda boring. More of the same constantly.

I loved my first and second play throughs, but after that, I have zero interest in it. Dark Souls, Demons' Souls (and to a lesser extent Dark Souls 2) I can keep going back to, again and again.

 

[Timu]

Why do people keep saying it's bad?

It's not bad at all.

 

[data]

I'm decent at DkS1 and BB, but this one just feels hard to me, too. I haven't spent that much time with it though.

 

[Spinx]

DS2 is better than DS1, this is a proven fact from both reviews and sales.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Almost laughed audibly on public transportation reading this. Criticisms don't have innate value simply because it was voiced by someone, somewhere, at some point. Bloodborne being impacted at all because one's roleplay experience was affected by the CG intro movie leaning in the assumption the character was male is by far the most irrelevant criticism of any game i've ever read.

Bloodborne being impacted at all...? What? Did you not see that I was talking about Dark Souls 2's CG intro movie and not Bloodborne...? And in fact in my opinion that Bloodborne did the whole thing the right way compared to Dark Souls 2?

I mean, I am glad that you get a laugh out of it, but what are you even saying...?

And it's just one criticism. An unfortunate thing. Of course it doesn't impact the gameplay quality, but it may impact someone's enjoyment of the game, especially if the person is heavy on roleplaying his/her own character (like me), who would love to create stories for their avatars including their gender with the game not implying what is the "correct" gender to play as (the same problem with Fallout 4).

 

[SpiceMelange]

This is completely false and takes about two seconds to debunk. Dark Souls 2 is more analog than the previous games and doesn't snap your dodging into backwards/forwards/left/right.

I just booted SOTFS and he's right, when not locked on and moving straight ahead degrees with my joystick and my character's orientation degrees were not 1:1 like ds1, there's some sort of threshold going on.


I'm going through DS1 presently, tried about one-two hours of SOTFS just to get a feel until I complete the first one but already I can tell the combat is going to be bullshit. Mobs fucking spin around 270 degree while attacking it seems like. Backstabs and parries are clunky for some reason and they aren't even fully invincible (at least the backstab, not sure about parry), no reason to use them anymore. Dodging doesn't feel satisfying like 1 too.

 

[IC5]

That extra stress only serves to make combat more tedious. Especially when fighting groups of enemies. It in no way makes the game better. Theres a reason DaS3 is reverting on that stance. Its simply bad design.

Tell me how its better to be fighting an enemy and dodge an attack which is punishable but having to wait, re-position then attack, compared to being able to do that in one full motion. BB has 8 Directional dodging similar to Ds2. The difference is the PC always faces the enemy giving the gameplay a more upbeat feel. Again Ds2 feels like playing a game of red light, green light. This is a problem the earlier, more restrictive games(in terms of lock on) did not run into.

Having to work for openings against enemies should be dependent upon the way their moveset works. Not on how restrictive/un-intuitive the developers can make player movement.

I really don't have a problem dodging and subsequently attacking, in Dark Souls 2. and I actually find it easier to reliably dodge or roll in the an intended direction Vs. how things worked in Dark Souls. The lock-on is too strong and becomes a bit of a crutch. Combined with the generous I-frames, Dark Souls 1 gives you a ton of room to be imprecise.
I think this is why a lot of people were sour about Dark Souls 2, at first. Because they couldn't lazily dodge a giant's sword swing or something like that. Dark Souls 2 tightens things up a lot and forces the player to be more deliberate and exact, with how they move. Even when you do gain back some of your I-frames, you still have to work harder. Enemy attacks are also often designed to keep the player from simply diving in. As one usually could, in Dark Souls.

I'm going through DS1 presently, tried about one-two hours of SOTFS just to get a feel until I complete the first one but already I can tell the combat is going to be bullshit. Mobs fucking spin around 270 degree while attacking it seems like. Backstabs and parries are clunky for some reason and they aren't even fully invincible (at least the backstab, not sure about parry), no reason to use them anymore. Dodging doesn't feel satisfying like 1 too.

I would actually argue that parries and ripostes are more generous in Dark Souls 2, then they ever have been.
Backstabs were way too easy to pull off in Dark Souls1. They narrowed the activation window and yes, made you vulnerable during the animation. It works out much better in PVP or group fights.
As I just got finished talking about, you cannot lazily dodge, like you used to in Dark Souls. A lot of people got used to it and felt cool because they could blow off Sif's sword swings no problem, etc. Press roll at some general time in the fight, to avoid damage. You can't do that in Dark Souls 2. Once you get used to being more deliberate, it actually feels MORE satisfying. Heide Knights are tough to fight, because you have to work at it. You can't roll into a 360 spear spin.

 

[Cyborg]

It's not bad it just isnt good as DeS, DS1 and BB. My biggest compaint is the lack of atmosphere and memorable bosses.

 

[Moff]

I really liked it
but Demons Souls and Dark Souls were certainly better
DS2 simply gets some pluspoints for how well and smooth it runs on pc, I really liked spending time with it.

 

[SpiceMelange]

I really don't have a problem dodging and subsequently attacking, in Dark Souls 2. and I actually find it easier to reliably dodge or roll in the an intended direction Vs. how things worked in Dark Souls. The lock-on is too strong and becomes a bit of a crutch. Combined with the generous I-frames, Dark Souls 1 gives you a ton of room to be imprecise.
I think this is why a lot of people were sour about Dark Souls 2, at first. Because they couldn't lazily dodge a giant's sword swing or something like that. Dark Souls 2 tightens things up a lot and forces the player to be more deliberate and exact, with how they move. Even when you do gain back some of your I-frames, you still have to work harder. Enemy attacks are also often designed to keep the player from simply diving in. As one usually could, in Dark Souls.


I would actually argue that parries and ripostes are more generous in Dark Souls 2, then they ever have been. Backstabs were way too easy to pull off in Dark Souls1. They narrowed the activation window and yes, made you vulnerable during the animation. It works out much better in PVP or group fights.
As I just got finished talking about, you cannot lazily dodge, like you used to in Dark Souls. A lot of people got used to it and felt cool because they could blow off Sif's sword swings no problem, etc. Press roll at some general time in the fight, to avoid damage. You can't do that in Dark Souls 2. Once you get used to being more deliberate, it actually feels MORE satisfying. Heide Knights are tough to fight, because you have to work at it. You can't roll into a 360 spear spin.

It's not just iframes, but also coupled with the auto-tracking that makes the combat feel bullshitty. I generally have no problem with tighter dodging timing. It's the spinning around added to it that drives me mad. Also they could just made that backstab/parry change for PVP. I have zero reason to use them anymore in DS2. I am not committing to a 4 seconds animation of backstab ever now. I can't tell how you can say it's better designed if now I'm compelled to never use it.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The intro doesn't imply the player character is male. You don't see their gender at all. It's just a nameless hollow until you use the effigy the old lady gifts you and then you see what your character looks like.

As someone who feels strongly about equality of gender representation, I think claiming this breaks the role-playing experience is patently silly, and just going out of one's way to criticize the game. It's grasping at straws.

 

[DoubleTake]

I really don't have a problem dodging and subsequently attacking, in Dark Souls 2. and I actually find it easier to reliably dodge or roll in the an intended direction Vs. how things worked in Dark Souls. The lock-on is too strong and becomes a bit of a crutch. Combined with the generous I-frames, Dark Souls 1 gives you a ton of room to be imprecise.
I think this is why a lot of people were sour about Dark Souls 2, at first. Because they couldn't lazily dodge a giant's sword swing or something like that. Dark Souls 2 tightens things up a lot and forces the player to be more deliberate and exact, with how they move. Even when you do gain back some of your I-frames, you still have to work harder. Enemy attacks are also often designed to keep the player from simply diving in. As one usually could, in Dark Souls.

Load up Ds2. Lock to an enemy and roll left or right or straight back attempting to do a rolling attack. Tell me how many times you miss or swing away from an enemy, especially with weapons that dont have wide sweeping attacks. Yes dodging is better in Ds2 because of the increased range of movement, but the restrictions placed on the player make it moot. The game is entirely about dodging to not be hit whereas the other games accomodated that playstyle and had mechanics in place to allow players to dodge to hit.

That is inherently more restrictive than Dark Souls 1 four-way rolling because the former is easily fixed by unlocking and aiming your attacks, another thing that Ds2 does away with.

Again difficulty shouldnt come from placing restrictions on player movement but from enemy design and movesets.

 

[Laughing Banana]

The intro doesn't imply the player character is male. You don't see their gender at all. It's just a nameless hollow until you use the effigy the old lady gifts you and then you see what your character looks like.

As someone who feels strongly about equality of gender representation, I think claiming this breaks the role-playing experience is patently silly, and just going out of one's way to criticize the game. It's grasping at straws.

In my view, I quite disagree on that. Well to be fair a player can also imagine that lady and the kid she's holding is her (the PCs) sister or someone equally important though...

And it is just *a* criticism, not *the* criticism. Just because I feel like the opening is not being handled rather well does not mean that I abhor the game or anything like that. It seems like such a rather weird thing that by simply noting something that I find unfortunate is equal to me "going full force on trying to make the game look bad" as you seem to imply I'm doing in here.

Anyway, that's just my view on it.

 

[Ferr986]

Backstabs were way too easy to pull off in Dark Souls1. They narrowed the activation window and yes, made you vulnerable during the animation. It works out much better in PVP or group fights.

Yeah, backstabs on DS1 were just plain cheap.
Backstab are something I could do without in a Souls game, same as, for example, enemy grab attacks.

Bloodborne did it best IMO because atleast it required to do a charge attack behind the enemy first.

They could also make backstabs only posible on enemies that didn't aggro you yet. Backstabs being easy to trigger again was the only bad part of the DS3 Test for me.

 

[SRTtoZ]

It clearly feels worse after you play BB but DS2 is still a fantastic game.

 

[takriel]

The intro doesn't imply the player character is male. You don't see their gender at all. It's just a nameless hollow until you use the effigy the old lady gifts you and then you see what your character looks like.

As someone who feels strongly about equality of gender representation, I think claiming this breaks the role-playing experience is patently silly, and just going out of one's way to criticize the game. It's grasping at straws.

Try removing your clothes in Things Betwixt, then. It's clearly a male character. Now I don't have a problem with this, but you're clearly male at the beginning of the game.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Try removing your clothes in Things Betwixt, then. It's clearly a male character. Now I don't have a problem with this, but you're clearly male at the beginning of the game.

The character's completely hollow, barely recognizable as human. lol

 

[KORNdoggy]

not the best out of the souls.

i'd never call it a bad game

i felt it slipped into "bad game territory" personally. i thought it was by far the worst souls game in it's vanilla release. and the PS4 first sin release just made it bad.

 

[AzureSky]

just wanted to say that i played DS2 first and liked it just fine, it's a great game. Then i played Dark Souls 1 and understood how much better the second one could have been.
It's not just nostalgia, the first one is clearly better designed, but it doesnt make the second game bad.

and btw, Bloodborne is a much more different game, it shouldnt be compared in my opinion. It's faster, more focused expirience. I personally didnt enjoy it as much. Dark Souls combat is more deliberate and has more variety.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

The intro doesn't imply the player character is male. You don't see their gender at all. It's just a nameless hollow until you use the effigy the old lady gifts you and then you see what your character looks like.

As someone who feels strongly about equality of gender representation, I think claiming this breaks the role-playing experience is patently silly, and just going out of one's way to criticize the game. It's grasping at straws.

It does. It even shows the main character shirtless. It even gives him a wife and child further nailing his character down. Strongly introducing the player character before you have rolled it in an RPG is just dumb. A choice that makes no sense at all.

 

[Mman235]

•shit like duel wielding and bows that were hyped up to be actually be good were just if not more useless in ds2.

Wow this is almost on par with the "Dark Souls has shit level design" comment. Bows and dual wielding are incredibly powerful in Dark Souls 2 (and the former are the strongest they've ever been outside of cheese). Bows are so good they even have some utility in PvP.

They forgot to include Well, What Is It?

This is true. Well, What Is It? Better be back in Dark Souls 3.

Edit:

I don't even understand his first negative. He's saying there's input lag and also sometimes your character does stuff you don't tell them to do? Never experienced that in the PS4 version once.

It happens in all the non-60fps Souls games for me on console (and when the PC versions aren't smooth). It's some sort of problem with how low framerates make the input buffer much bigger and it certainly isn't unique to DS2.

 

[Celegus]

Best game of 2014 isn't bad.

 

[GeordieMark]

i felt it slipped into "bad game territory" personally. i thought it was by far the worst souls game in it's vanilla release. and the PS4 first sin release just made it bad.

I think so to. I think the solid mechanics carried over from Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are the only good things about it. Everything else is worse than any other Souls game. Its such an ugly game too. Dark Souls wasn't a graphics powerhouse, but it has far better artwork and world design.

 

[Vaga]

It is the worst of all the souls but that doesn't mean it's bad just certain mechanics are dissapointing like combat, hit detection, level design and general atmosphere.

Jumping from Bloodborne would feel like coming home to your boring 20 year old marriage after spending 2 weeks vacation in the carribean with your hot lover.

 

[DieNgamers]

Mods should change this thread's title to Gettysburg......

On topic; I just wanted to pop in and say that I just started playing Scholar of the First Sin because I missed the original DS2 and I'm absolutely in love with it. Like....like deeply. Don't know why so many dislike it, it has never once seemed unfair to me; I earned every one of my deaths through stupidity and it taught me to adapt and overcome by learning the enemies tells and move sets. I'm only two bosses in but I'm absolutely head over heels in love with it so far, and this is from someone who absolutely adored Demon's Souls and Bloodborne as well so....I dunno. Feel free to continue arguing amongst each other about how this person's opinions are wrong; etc. etc.

Right? I'm wondering what's wrong here, actually. You don't even need to argue in this thread – the opinions differ that much. Personally I think with time people will look back much more positively on Scholar of the First Sin. This may be on the 3rd or 4th place in the Souls series but it's still a better game than most (if not all) games out there right now. Second best PS4 game easily.

 

[generic_username]

It is the worst of all the souls but that doesn't mean it's bad just certain mechanics are dissapointing like combat, hit detection, level design and general atmosphere.

Jumping from Bloodborne would feel like coming home to your boring 20 year old marriage after spending 2 weeks vacation in the carribean with your hot lover.

lol

 

[PhilipDoesMatter]

Playing DaS after Bloodborne demands some comprehension on the logical downgrade in battle. DaS is an amazing game, but after playing Bloodborne I could not come back.

 

[ElFly]

This is stupid.

Almost every generic enemy in souls/borne you can kill 1 on 1. If you can't, you won't make it to even half of the game.

Of fucking course the game tries to trap you into fighting multiple enemies. That's the whole point. Kiting every enemy out into single duel is boring.

 

[Coda]

It's probably the worst in the series and it definitely takes getting used to after playing Bloodborne, but I still generally had a good time playing it. I think the AGL stat thing is BS and they shouldn't have made that such a unknown thing for new players.

 

[Gbraga]

Kitamura is also the composer for the Astral Clocktower song, right? She's fucking awesome.

 

[Ferr986]

Kitamura is also the composer for the Astral Clocktower song, right? She's fucking awesome.

Yep! She composed that one too.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

It's by far the worst in the series. I played it right as it was released and it just was no fun even though I loved both predecessors. Bloodborne turned out incredible as well but Dark Souls II felt just awfully off.

 

[Gbraga]

Yep! She composed that one too.

Jesus Christ, just found out that the INCREDIBLE Dark Souls III Network Test Menu Theme was composed by her as well.

TOO
DAMN
GOOD

Please, From, make everyone happy with Dark Souls III, it just HAS to be amazing.

Spoiler

Please bring back Gwyn!

 

[Markoman]

It is the worst of all the souls but that doesn't mean it's bad just certain mechanics are dissapointing like combat, hit detection, level design and general atmosphere.

Jumping from Bloodborne would feel like coming home to your boring 20 year old marriage after spending 2 weeks vacation in the carribean with your hot lover.

Wait, errrrrrrrrrr [using imagination] errrrrrrr, you are right, sir!

Graphics, animations and hitboxes take a huge dive as years go by when married.
(not talking from personal experiences though)

White knights assemble and safe me from my own political/social incorectness.

 

[Starzonedge]

This is stupid.

Almost every generic enemy in souls/borne you can kill 1 on 1. If you can't, you won't make it to even half of the game.

Of fucking course the game tries to trap you into fighting multiple enemies. That's the whole point. Kiting every enemy out into single duel is boring.

The sweetspot lies in letting the player take at least one or two hits before having to dodge or block rather than having to trade hits because enemies 3 and 4 are landing their attacks as your attack animation ends. I'd rather fight blue spear knights/Cthulu warriors (Bloodborne DLC)/Silver Spear Knights steadily chip away at my health in groups of two max than fight five nerdy enemies (each needing about four hits to die, so I need to land twenty hits while meticulously doing hit and run tactics). The latter is doable but a slog. Best example I can think of is the area in the Harvest Valley with the 5+ enemies (both the big guys with the spears and the undead soldiers) where you end up going up the ramp, taking a left, chipping away at their health, dropping down the ledge once you've been backed into a corner, and looping this for five minutes.

 

[test_account]

If the combat is the problem, why single out Dark Souls 2? Its the same in Dark Souls 1 and Demon's Souls too. Unless that the OP havnt played those games though.

 

[The Artisan]

Critics or user-wise? For me, the the ramblings here on NeoGAF are a better indicator of a game's appeal than professional reviews. Dks 2 is a massively polarizing game here, and that's exactly my opinion on the game, as well.

gaf & the internet as a whole also gives opinions on why Me2 and Uc3 aren't as good as they're made out to be. while i agree to an extent, it isn't really always for the reasons stated.

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

If the combat is the problem, why single out Dark Souls 2? Its the same in Dark Souls 1 and Demon's Souls too. Unless that the OP havnt played those games though.

I haven't yet played them. I picked up dark souls 2 cos it was cheap on PS4, and cos I enjoyed bloodborne so much.

 

[King Gilga]

It's like people forget how bad DS1's hitboxes were sometimes, probably because they could also be so great 10 seconds after.

Artorius also did dumb shit like pivoting/tracking mid air on his sonic attack thing and people still give him a free pass.

•shit like duel wielding and bows that were hyped up to be actually be good were just if not more useless in ds2.

What? DW was great, did it the whole game and it was pretty piss easy.

 

[KidB]

I'm currently playing SotfS and it's far from a bad game. It's not as good as the other three games, especially from a level design perspective, but I'm still enjoying it quite a bit.

 

[Marty-esque]

I just started this earlier this week. I picked swordsman and was wondering if I need to upgrade adaptability or should I focus on mostly health and dexterity?

 

[KidB]

I just started this earlier this week. I picked swordsman and was wondering if I need to upgrade adaptability or should I focus on mostly health and dexterity?

Upgrading adaptability should be one of your main concerns early on.

 

[Clear]

I'm currently playing SotfS and it's far from a bad game. It's not as good as the other three games, especially from a level design perspective, but I'm still enjoying it quite a bit.

One of the best features of DS2 is it really improves the deeper you get, whereas DS1 kind of plateaus around Sen's Fortress/Anor Londo. Particularly in terms of level design, I think you'll find a lot to enjoy in the DLC areas, so your opinion may improve.

As I wrote earlier, I found DS2 the most difficult game in the series to start with because a lot of the techniques I felt I mastered in Demons' and DS1 really didn't serve too well. However after adapting my approach and playing through enough cycles to platinum the game all that had changed and I was really having a great time.

 

[KidB]

One of the best features of DS2 is it really improves the deeper you get, whereas DS1 kind of plateaus around Sen's Fortress/Anor Londo. Particularly in terms of level design, I think you'll find a lot to enjoy in the DLC areas, so your opinion may improve.

As I wrote earlier, I found DS2 the most difficult game in the series to start with because a lot of the techniques I felt I mastered in Demons' and DS1 really didn't serve too well. However after adapting my approach and playing through enough cycles to platinum the game all that had changed and I was really having a great time.

I know, I just finished The Sunken King and the level design is much better than the vanilla game up to the point I'd reached.

 

[GRIP]

It's like people forget how bad DS1's hitboxes were sometimes, probably because they could also be so great 10 seconds after.

Artorius also did dumb shit like pivoting/tracking mid air on his sonic attack thing and people still give him a free pass.



What? DW was great, did it the whole game and it was pretty piss easy.

Not that I disagree that DS1 had questionable hitboxes at times, but I'm pretty sure that there is an AOE on the slam in that first example. Not completely sure since I haven't played in a while, but I think that's what's happening.

 

[Griss]

It's not bad at all. It just falls far short of three of the greatest games ever made. (Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Bloodborne)

At the highest level of game design, tiny choices determine whether a game ascends to be more than the sum of its parts or, on the other hand, less. Whereas every single part of the design of Bloodborne was well thought out, every texture meticulously created, every sound effect perfectly judged, in DSII that same level of care just isn't quite there, and at these rarified heights that makes a big difference.

On the other hand, if you're comparing DSII to the vast majority of AAA games that come out these days, it's probably still right at the top. That's the problem with being the weakest game in a legendary series, though. You're going to get judged harshly.