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[NickFire]

Why people talk about marketing and PR if this was a panel mostly aimed at developers??? Is everything all right???

They released the vid on the official PS Blog. Enough said?

 

[kyliethicc]

Here’s my best guess on specs for both consoles. Italics means I’m guessing.

 

[dangopee]

Where the fuck are people getting the idea that wide and slow is worse than narrow and fast?

Compare the 5500XT to an underclocked 5700 and the 5700 will stomp it, even if you limit memory bandwidth so it is more comparable.

First of all, 5500XT has 22 CU and the 5700 has 36 CU. Games are more likely to be able to keep lower CU counts fed with data to process at all times. The XSX 52 CUs is pretty large to keep saturated with work at all times. Cerny literally said in the presentation that a lower CU count is easier to keep filled with data to process. Not all algorithms parallelize perfectly and efficiently. Also, the shaders arent the only part of the chip that is affected by clock speed. The ROPs for example will benefit from higher clock.

 

[pasterpl]

We have not seen pricing yet, lets wait and see how much stuff costs.

What is Ps5 is 499 and Series X is 799 , I do not hink this will be cheap at all.

If series X is 499 and ps5 399, sony cheaped out and fucked up design probbaly due to some suit accountant.

that ps5 ssd wont be cheap, ds5 with all extras will cost extra penny as well. I assume the price difference between both systems to be somewhere between $50-$100, remember Phil have said that they will not be done on price and power, so far he delivered.

 

[Reindeer]

so it's fake 10TF Lmao
Put some respect on GitHub

Checkerboarded 10 tflops

 

[SlimySnake]

Just thinking about this. Cerny fucked this up so much that he ended up proving VFXVeteran and Timdog right. He designed the console like these github truthers wanted him too. Narrow and fast and inefficient.

If that's not the most ironic display of incompetence i dont know what is.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Yes, the emphasis on the whole pipeline in the talk was impressive. WWS at least will be doing very clever things with it I think.

I'm interested in how the memory mapping for v-cache works with it. The amount of decompression ASIC ICs they have for the memory controller is pretty insane.

Also I've been wondering if they mentioned about third-party drives being installed in the same port/bay as the internal drive or if those connect through a different port? Asking because dunno if Cerny mentioned it or not. Also asking because I've been thinking about XSX's storage and MS made it seem like the expansion card can be inserted while the internal drive sits on the drive simultaneously..

...BUT I'm wondering if they could actually run data from both the internal and external expansion drive simultaneously? Games probably could not code around the expansion drive always being there (because it won't always be there), but maybe the OS could utilize it as a boost in speed performance so that if both are being ran from concurrently combined it reaches performance closer to PS5's custom drive (4.8 GB/s vs 5.5 GB/s)?

Just something I've been thinking about especially after today's presentation.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Well we know it's vastly underpowered compared to the Xbox. Sony might not value that and that is fine.

But for me it's a ball dropped. It's kind of like on a PC comparing GPUs. No one can deny a GTX 2070 is good and will play games at great FPS and with great textures etc.

But that's doesn't change the fact a GTX 2080 will play them at either higher frames and quality etc.

I value those frames and Pictures quality so for me being 16% less powerful is major.

You make good points in the bottleneck though but we are only working we current infor. We cannot know if Ps5 or XSX will have problems developing for.

With current info it is safe to assume Devs will be able to get more out of the XBox.

For me a big difference in spec so a huge difference in price is needed.

16% less teraflops. Whether that translates to 16% less power remains to be seen because clocking the GPU at higher frequencies also speeds up rasterization, and the L1/L2 caches, for instance. There's also the split RAM pool solution the XBX is going with. While 10GB of that RAM is faster than the PS5's RAM, the other 6GB is much slower. In addition, the PS5 uses a unified RAM pool with uniform speeds.

You haven't seen any comparison videos, so why are you making such early judgments without seeing anything? If we were to talk about a 16% difference in resolution, for instance, that is the difference between 2160p vs. 1800p. However, there are videos out there (like Hardware Unboxed) showing how 1800p upscaled to 4K with RIS looks very similar to native 4K.

And to add onto how your XB1 to PS4 comparison is flawed, the difference wasn't just in teraflops. The PS4 had twice the ROPs, the XB1 used DDR3 RAM and 32MB of esRAM, and the PS4's GPU had much greater GPGPU potential. The 40% teraflop difference was not completely responsible for the power disparity between those two consoles.

 

[Bladed Thesis]

Why people talk about marketing and PR if this was a panel mostly aimed at developers??? Is everything all right???

Because the entire gaming world is starved for PS5 info and this is the first info to come out.

Horribly managed PR from Sony.

 

[Reindeer]

Just thinking about this. Cerny fucked this up so much that he ended up proving VFXVeteran and Timdog right. He designed the console like these github truthers wanted him too. Narrow and fast and inefficient.

If that's not the most ironic display of incompetence i dont know what is.

No, he designed the console that appeared on GitHub which people believed in.

 

[pasterpl]

Here’s my best guess on specs for both consoles. Italics means I’m guessing.

we know that there will not be full bc compatibility with ps4, there will be exclusives for xsex within first 12 months, comment about 2 years was made around 1 tear ago

 

[FullNelson]

From day one to wait & see

Same here. I was ready to throw my money at Sony, but the messaging has been awful. I'm happy with the specs, but the BC thing is so confusing.

 

[elcapitano]

The more I read the worse this console is in comparison. What where Sony thinking. Should have done two SKUs many would much rather pay for a machine that isn't behind from the start.

 

[SlimySnake]

the only thing going forward I can take from all our speculation threads going forward is insiders don't know shit all lol.

i think every single insider needs to be banned. or get a tag. Maybe forced to go with 'Poorly Vetted Insider'.

 

[JLMC469]

Is it too early to give a power gap? Percentage wise?

 

[Marlenus]

So based on the DF reveal video we know that the Xbox Series X in a rushed port performs on par with a 2080 @ 4k Ultra. The PS5 is closer to a 5700XT so the Xbox SeX is around 20% faster in raw framerate + it has more RT performance and more CPU performance. That will mean slightly better visuals and more consistant frame rates if devs don't over do the graphical fidelity.

The SSD might make a differece in exclusives but the vast majority games are going to be designed with PC hardware in mind which is SATA 3 or PCIe 3 SSDs.

It won't be as bad as 900p vs 1080p like Xbox One vs PS4 but it could be closer to 4k medium vs 4k high instead.

Unless the PS5 is $100 + cheaper the Xbox SeX is the better buy from a purely hardware standpoint IMO. Obviously if youre favourite franchises are on the PS5 then that is what you will buy regardless and it is still a powerful console but the Xbox is more so.

 

[kyliethicc]

I'm interested in how the memory mapping for v-cache works with it. The amount of decompression ASIC ICs they have for the memory controller is pretty insane.

Also I've been wondering if they mentioned about third-party drives being installed in the same port/bay as the internal drive or if those connect through a different port? Asking because dunno if Cerny mentioned it or not. Also asking because I've been thinking about XSX's storage and MS made it seem like the expansion card can be inserted while the internal drive sits on the drive simultaneously..

...BUT I'm wondering if they could actually run data from both the internal and external expansion drive simultaneously? Games probably could not code around the expansion drive always being there (because it won't always be there), but maybe the OS could utilize it as a boost in speed performance so that if both are being ran from concurrently combined it reaches performance closer to PS5's custom drive (4.8 GB/s vs 5.5 GB/s)?

Just something I've been thinking about especially after today's presentation.

Yeah it better be a second expansion bay for the PS5 so we can have the 825 internal AND more we add. If it is just 1 at a time they’re idiots.

 

[Reindeer]

Damn, Foxy Games is crying hard, he ain't taking this well.

 

[Okami Haundo]

I just saw the PS5 news and not gonna lie, I'm really underwhelmed. Primarily on the front of PS4 BC. "Top 100 games by playtime" makes sense to me, but it also means a ton of weirder games I really like would be left out.

Looks like I'm continuing on the Xbox train and will get a PS5 for cheap exclusives down the line.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Is it too early to give a power gap? Percentage wise?

On paper, it appears to be 16%. Not small enough to scoff at, not big enough to feel threatened.

 

[44alltheway]

I am so impressed by the speed/efficiency PS5 has and SONY never disappointed me since PS1 always they deliver with performance, efficiency, price. I believe it will deliver a good price point! I will definitely be getting PS5 on day one! XSX will have to wait untill black friday with more games to come. can't buy console that doesn't have exclusives I am looking forward to just yet. but XSX it has to wait 2021-22 Black friday

While agree with this is probably a big deal, how can one say they are impressed by it when they haven't seen it yet? That's my biggest issue with this presentation. Sure, they didn't have to announce their new triple A blockbuster, but at least show off what a 5.5 GB/s SSD can do, because just talking about it doesn't really allow people to visualize it.

Again, I'm not saying the SSD isn't a big deal - it is - but they should have had some sort of demo around it.

 

[elcapitano]

So based on the DF reveal video we know that the Xbox Series X in a rushed port performs on par with a 2080 @ 4k Ultra. The PS5 is closer to a 5700XT so the Xbox SeX is around 20% faster in raw framerate + it has more RT performance and more CPU performance. That will mean slightly better visuals and more consistant frame rates if devs don't over do the graphical fidelity.

The SSD might make a differece in exclusives but the vast majority games are going to be designed with PC hardware in mind which is SATA 3 or PCIe 3 SSDs.

It won't be as bad as 900p vs 1080p like Xbox One vs PS4 but it could be closer to 4k medium vs 4k high instead.

Unless the PS5 is $100 + cheaper the Xbox SeX is the better buy from a purely hardware standpoint IMO. Obviously if youre favourite franchises are on the PS5 then that is what you will buy regardless and it is still a powerful console but the Xbox is more so.

My Fav games are PS games but unless this thing Is way cheaper than the the clearly superior Xbox I see no reason to buy it until it drops in price.

It really is a bad offering from Sony for me.

 

[Daniel_Mallorca1985]

Ok, lets move on. Be the weaker hw in a generation is not the end of the world.

 

[M-V2]

That spec sheet was not bad too many people were being unrealistic in their expectations.

What's unrealistic is doing a 36CU & clock at 2.2ghz, this is a bad desgin decision imo

 

[B_Boss]

Someone needs to Photoshop this crashing

Why though lol? Hype train doesn’t necessarily mean that those members assumed that the PS5 would be the technically more powerful console (I sure as hell would never make such an assumption unless it was officially stated by Sony in this case and I’d wager some members on the train did assume as such) but just excitement for their console of choice, regardless of its strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Zoradeity]

My only complaint about today's presentation is the lack of tech demos. If your hardware is all about speed, give us a taste of what you can do with it. All the headlines will be about them having a weaker spec sheet, not sure they put much thought into this.

 

[icerock]

Just thinking about this. Cerny fucked this up so much that he ended up proving VFXVeteran and Timdog right. He designed the console like these github truthers wanted him too. Narrow and fast and inefficient.

If that's not the most ironic display of incompetence i dont know what is.

Cerny designed a $400 PS5 for 2019 (8TF imo), internally they had to delay it and in return launch simultaneously with Series X which resulted in hail-mary attempts with these clock speeds to boost compute power.

I don't think this is entirely on him.

Is it too early to give a power gap? Percentage wise?

Series X is comfortably ~18% faster.

So based on the DF reveal video we know that the Xbox Series X in a rushed port performs on par with a 2080 @ 4k Ultra. The PS5 is closer to a 5700XT so the Xbox SeX is around 20% faster in raw framerate + it has more RT performance and more CPU performance. That will mean slightly better visuals and more consistant frame rates if devs don't over do the graphical fidelity.

The SSD might make a differece in exclusives but the vast majority games are going to be designed with PC hardware in mind which is SATA 3 or PCIe 3 SSDs.

It won't be as bad as 900p vs 1080p like Xbox One vs PS4 but it could be closer to 4k medium vs 4k high instead.

Unless the PS5 is $100 + cheaper the Xbox SeX is the better buy from a purely hardware standpoint IMO. Obviously if youre favourite franchises are on the PS5 then that is what you will buy regardless and it is still a powerful console but the Xbox is more so.

Nah, not an accurate comparison. 5700XT is based on RDNA1 architecture, 10.3TF RDNA2 GPU with IPC gains is gonna perform better. All you're going to see is PS5 utilize checkerboard rendering to reach 4K while Series X runs it native, 18% more compute power won't magically allow for a lot of room in visual fidelity. Any differences will be marginal.

The bigger worry in here is PS4 BC compatibility, that shit should work 100% out of the box. Also, SSD is a double-edged sword. Faster SSDs are extremely pricey, and given minimum 5.5GB/s requirement, that's another big hurdle.

 

[JLMC469]

I believe Sony’s 1st party will do wonders with 10 tflops. Gorgeous looking games. I mean, look at what they did with the PS4. No need to worry guys.

 

[DiddyInAHellcat]

Enjoy playing minecraft with Raytracing

I'm getting both systems but I will be playing the Sony exclusives on PlayStation and the third party multi-platform games on the Series X

 

[SportsFan581]

kyliethicc , MS already said that the CPU is locked at 3.6 with SMT enabled, and 3.8 when it is disabled. 8 threads @ 3.8 or 8 + 8 SMT @ 3.6. Safe for you to update your chart on that one.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

Lol of course you have and would say this. You are cut from the same cloth

Thank you!

 

[Reindeer]

On paper, it appears to be 16%. Not small enough to scoff at, not big enough to feel threatened.

That's at best possible scenario running in boost mode, that and around 40% worse Ray Tracing on PS5.

 

[Zero707]

Let The Ws rain #TeamGitHub

 

[Marlenus]

First of all, 5500XT has 22 CU and the 5700 has 36 CU. Games are more likely to be able to keep lower CU counts fed with data to process at all times. The XSX 52 CUs is pretty large to keep saturated with work at all times. Cerny literally said in the presentation that a lower CU count is easier to keep filled with data to process. Not all algorithms parallelize perfectly and efficiently. Also, the shaders arent the only part of the chip that is affected by clock speed. The ROPs for example will benefit from higher clock.

The 2080 Ti keeps its 4352 shaders fed and is the epitome of wide and slow vs narrow and fast when you compare it to the 2080Super and the 2080Ti at 4k is about 20% faster than the Super.

As far as ROPs go they will benefit from high clockspeeds but the Xbox One Series X has more of them just like it has more shaders and more RT units and well, just more of everything apart from heat and noise because unless RDNA2 is a miracle architecture with desktop cards clocking at 2.5Ghz + the PS5 is going to be running much higher up the voltage frequency curve which means a lot lot more power used.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

My only complaint about today's presentation is the lack of tech demos. If your hardware is all about speed, give us a taste of what you can do with it. All the headlines will be about them having a weaker spec sheet, not sure they put much thought into this.

100% agree with this.

I wasn't expecting games but I did think we would get a couple of demos.

Really hope this "reveal" lets Devs start talking/showing more of what they have been working on and get some video going.

I hope we don't have to wait until around E3 time for this stuff.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

People under estimating that SSD imo.

Sure I wanted more power but I was not expecting even 12 so I don't get this doom and gloom for PS5.

With how games were looking even on the Pro that PS5 is going to be a kick ass machine with a great gaming lineup.

It is an amazing tech achievement that won't ammount to much when it comes to games: multiplats will simply focus on the Xbox one, since is more common place and it's the lower denominator.

Only first party will use it, so what's the point really?

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

that ps5 ssd wont be cheap, ds5 with all extras will cost extra penny as well. I assume the price difference between both systems to be somewhere between $50-$100, remember Phil have said that they will not be done on price and power, so far he delivered.

Well being outdone on price and power is pretty rare. Usually it's one or the other

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

It is an amazing tech achievement that won't ammount to much when it comes to games: multiplats will simply focus on the Xbox one, since is more common place and it's the lower denominator.

Only first party will use it, so what's the point really?

Because a lot of us love Sony first party games.

Do you seriously have to ask whats the point?

 

[kyliethicc]

kyliethicc , MS already said that the CPU is locked at 3.6 with SMT enabled, and 3.8 when it is disabled. 8 threads @ 3.8 or 8 + 8 SMT @ 3.6. Safe for you to update your chart on that one.

Digital foundry said in their video it’s 14 threads at 3.8 or 16 at 3.6. I trust them being correct on the console they were given the exclusive reveal of.

They said at 3.8 GHz, 2 threads are reserved for the OS. While at 3.6 w/ SMT, all cores and threads can be used.

 

[CrustyBritches]

UPDATE: They changed the timing from yesterday.

xCloud info should be coming up on Game Stack at 11:55am PT. Linky.

There's no more scheduled Ray tracing talk at 1:20pm PT?

 

[Shambala]

Big dick Microsoft came out swinging.

 

[Deeper Underground]

Man hats off to the Xbox team and their fanboys. They managed to convince the world that having 12TF automatically means the system is better before we’ve even had a chance to see real world performance. This thread is embarrassing.

 

[jackets with pockets]

Bruh WTF, big fucking dissapointment. Not only for the hardware but the whole presentation itself, like they didn't show nothing.

It's because of Game Developers Conference, which would have been in full effect right now without the COVID-19 virus running rampant.

So, this was not an E3 presentation but Cerny's talk for game developers. It's just a bit awkward that Sony didn't communicate it better to the world. They should have said it in the tweet.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

Just thinking about this. Cerny fucked this up so much that he ended up proving VFXVeteran and Timdog right. He designed the console like these github truthers wanted him too. Narrow and fast and inefficient.

If that's not the most ironic display of incompetence i dont know what is.

Albert Penello knew the whole time as well. His post on Era showed just that.

 

[xool]

If the GPU hits top speed the CPU may/will thermally throttle .. nobody wanted to hear that - that's what I just heard though

"slightly better stereo"

insert lynchedinsider.gif .. all those journalists too .. and klee .. wtf misinformation campaign ??

OsirisBlack , Tommy Fisher , HeisenbergFX4 Gavin Stevens - you're ok .. always nice to see you ... some of the anti-github wolves though .. pls seek help


todays big news SonGoku is back

Shit should have came out in 2019.

This is the answer.

[we need talk about price]

 

[01011001]

I think the biggest graphics difference between games on these consoles will be the Raytracing. since it's tied to the CU count.

 

[alcapwne1]

What's unrealistic is doing a 36CU & clock at 2.2ghz, this is a bad desgin decision imo

This so much. Why the overkill ssd? Why did the Cu count stay the same? Bad design decisions, that i dont get.

 

[elcapitano]

If there outdone on price and power imma nope outta buying it.

Will wait till all the sequels to my favourite games cones out then get it. .

And I was day 1 if it was even a TF lower than Xbox and same price.

 

[Chromata]

The average consumer who buys FIFA and Cod is what matter. They buy the console for the services and for the better console to play 3rd party games.

Wii won the gen not because of exclusives
Switch is selling like cake not because of exclusives but because Nintendo created their own market and didn’t compete directly. WiiU with the best exclusives of gen failed miserably.

It’s not the SNES days. It’s not about exclusives only. It’s about the best place to play the games and Xbox offering is very interesting with Gamepass and a powerful console and big investment in studios and great technical features like quick/resume that Sony failed to show in a TECHNICAL 1 hour talk.

Sony dropped the ball from the marketing to the hardware specs. FOR THE PLAYERS yet Microsoft first revealed the console in a player focused event and Sony first talk about the console is a boring talk with fake audiences.

Yes I’m a big Sony fan and I’m pissed.

The first things that come to mind when thinking of Nintendo are Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, and Super Smash Bros. Those are all exclusives and Nintendo created their market off the backs of these exclusives. Wii U had a lot of problems and didn't have the best exclusives, that doesn't discount Nintendo's storied legacy.

I'm not denying any of your points about Xbox, Microsoft has been killing it lately and I'm glad to see the competition. I love Xbox game pass for PC.

Sony messed up big time with how they did the reveal, but the only reason why people are reacting so negatively is because of one metric (Tflops). That sole number isn't going to make or break an entire console, especially when people who are actually making the games (developers and engineers) are saying Tflops don't tell the whole story.

We've heard nothing but excited remarks from developers currently working with PS5 devkits. This whole thing is going to blow over once you start actually seeing the games.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I don't know man, memory setup doesn't fill me with confidence either, given how quickly it was glossed over. Series X setup is weird, and there are some legit concerns about the 'faster' memory reserved for GPU tasks but if Sony had a leg up on it, wouldn't they mention it?

SSD can help mitigate certain memory related tasks, but there is one trouble it shall always have i.e. latency. What sort of customization do they have on their SSD for these tasks? They didn't dwelve into either. I dearly hope for the 'full tear-down' they invite DF, only they are competent enough to identify these talking points. Also, I need some clarification on base clocks, even if they are to the tune of 'few percentages', I need to know.

Actually that's a good point; they definitely flexed on the SSD, I figure they'd do the same with memory if they had an advantage. I think it'll have some advantages if it's 16 GB @ 448 GB/s (or even 512 GB/s, tho the GPU clocks make it seem it's more at 448 GB/s), maybe not enough to flex tho.

SSD will help in a lot of things especially as memory-mapped virtual cache but it is still limited by NAND tech same as XSX's. The decompression hardware helps with the latency but still, it won't be an exact replacement or supplement for RAM, that's just not what NAND was built for. And if they had some persistent RAM there as a cache I definitely feel it would've been mentioned.

Hopefully there's clarification on the clocks for the GPU; right now it feels like base clock could be 9.2 TF after all and for games that need the extra performance it can boost up to 10.28 TF. Still amazed with the high clocks, RDNA2 efficiency is no joke.

Here’s my best guess on specs for both consoles. Italics means I’m guessing.

Pretty accurate, except two things maybe. I think Matt Booty's exclusives comment was made at E3 2019 (remember E3? xD), and applicable for 2019 and 2020. So I think we'll start seeing them in 2021, in the back half.

Also pricing; it SOUNDS like Lockhart might be happening after all? Dunno I'm listening to a stream RN and they just mentioned something about MS revealing the Lockhart soon. Anyway, I think PS5 will be either $399 or $450, and I can't see XSX being above $500. But maybe that depends on Lockhart (which I still hope isn't launching this year).