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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
It's like F, which is all you need to know regardless of Sony past generation,
Trying to say xbox doesnt have exclusives and their only exclusive is their BC. Trying to cover up the fact sony fcked up BC by piling on xbox. Lame. The whole silence and then totally crap BC and hindered console is lame. I like both companies but sony isnt doing a great job here.I don't get why Sony threw this slide in. It was really weird.
That being said. We will have better gaming for all if xsx makes up ground and we have two companies truly battling
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Maxwell House
Member
Why not? From what I’ve read, 52 CUs doesnt cost that much more than 36 CU to manufacture necessarily, especially with less of a need to run at insane clock speeds. There was at least one recent article/rumor that the PS5’s materials cost is actually higher than XSex. Think Sony just made a huge planning blunder by not adding more CU’s than the PS4 Pro. Will never understand what they could have been thinking.
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Zero707
If I carry on trolling, report me.
yeah i will recommend this headset if you don't want to hear PS5 Jet engine
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
So PS5's secret sauce is a 2.23 ghz boosted gpu and a giant fan. Cool.
Gamernyc78
Banned
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Reindeer
Member
Pretty sure Series X has a dedicated audio chip too and ovetall faster bandwidth with 13.5GB that is dedicated to games. Seems like that guy didn't do his homework.Good value comment
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it_wasn't_me
Banned
What's the problem if Sony patented some different cooling solution?
This guy doesnt take into account what DF showed. CPU or gpu... choose. 9tf
Ovech-King
Member
One thing for sure though is that with both machine having the same amount of GDDR6 but the ps5 having twice as fast access to it than Xbox one series X, this will free horsepower for graphics. In summary , the graphics of PS5 exclusives will DESTROY anything you'll be seeing on Xbox Sex
icerock
Member
THANK YOU, seeing how many people are mis-interpreting this is doing my head in. He's basically set a power limit, and not the thermal limit for CPU/GPU to downclock. So if the SKU is drawing close to maximum power for continuous amount of time, devs will have a decision on their hand to make, downclock either component by couple of %.
I'm in agreement, it's a shitty design, but I can't help but feel they didn't have much of a choice. Gotta try the hail-mary when push comes to shove!
If you're going to call people out, at least have the facts right. Memory bandwidth in Series X is split up, so even in there, devs have only 10GB of 'fast' bandwidth available to them.
Timestamp for 9TF figure in the DF video?
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it_wasn't_me
Banned
Overall bandwidth for games is around 476 GB/s on XSX Because 10 GB and 6 GB.
Reindeer
Member
Plus his comment on memory bandwidth is wrong.
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
I'm fine with the machine, we will see absurd games. But I will never say it enough: what bothers me is that they really believed they could announce a streaming dedicated to devs in a time like this and receive no complains. It's crazy.
kyliethicc
Member
Imagine if Sony has unveiled the PS5 with like a show.... idk, get a stage? And then maybe have a live orchestra start playing music to set the tone. No talking. Then the curtains draw back.... and we transition from music to live gameplay. A beloved character is revealed and we see live gameplay for a new exciting upcoming exclusive. This continues for 10 minutes, until the title is teased. And then boom, another one. And then a 3rd game. Several more never before seen exclusive games are shown/teased and the hype builds until a huge live gameplay demo to end it all. 30 minutes, games. Just game. All of it never before seen, and innovative. Then just end the show and throw the specs up on a blog post later.
Null_Key
Neo Member
I was wondering about that-- it's either a very bad slide design or it was intentional, I guess we will see soon enough.
MarkMe2525
Banned
Well I'm just saying. If math is being is being used to prove a point, one should use correct info.
Now another variable to the math problem. You used ps5 max clocks and we know it cannot sustain those at all times. So would we say 30% to 18%?
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I'm just curious what happened to previously-scheduled MS Game Stack presentation on Ray tracing. It was supposed to go for 35-40min today, and it was the topic I was most interested in. They replaced it with talk with the devs for Dread Machine and Gears Tactics. Is this going to be another inside scoop for DF, or what?
vdopey
Member
After watching DF video, maybe I was too quick to judge, who am I kidding I know I will be buying the PS5 on launch.
They have put a lot of effort into the audio and into the SSD - if it does turn out that the streaming of data in does indeed turn into a massive game changer, then maybe what Sony has done will end up amazing everyone, I am not sure.
They have put a lot of effort into the audio and into the SSD - if it does turn out that the streaming of data in does indeed turn into a massive game changer, then maybe what Sony has done will end up amazing everyone, I am not sure.
Reindeer
Member
Probably 15-20 and 25 max.
Reindeer
Member
10GB of fast ram + 3.5 of slow ram that is dedicated to gaming is still faster than 13.5 of PS5 Ram, even if by insignificant amount.
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Joey.
Member
The PS5 is still going to be a beast of a console.
And hands down, they currently have the better game library. Although I think this is another sector that Xbox is really working on improving.
I don't think you can go wrong with any console next gen, to be honest.
Both will be fantastic.
I think, I, like many others here, just were not fans on how Sony has dealt with this whole situation. They got caught with their pants down so I guess I can't fault them too much, they bunkered down in the war room and stayed silent until they could come up with 'something' to play to their strengths. Xbox completely stunned them. Also I think people are ticked off about the "insiders" crawling through these forums and threads. There might be one or two that have honest intentions and connections, but what a load of crap from many here. Must be a boring life to prance around as an "insider" and make stuff up. Jokes on you.
And hands down, they currently have the better game library. Although I think this is another sector that Xbox is really working on improving.
I don't think you can go wrong with any console next gen, to be honest.
Both will be fantastic.
I think, I, like many others here, just were not fans on how Sony has dealt with this whole situation. They got caught with their pants down so I guess I can't fault them too much, they bunkered down in the war room and stayed silent until they could come up with 'something' to play to their strengths. Xbox completely stunned them. Also I think people are ticked off about the "insiders" crawling through these forums and threads. There might be one or two that have honest intentions and connections, but what a load of crap from many here. Must be a boring life to prance around as an "insider" and make stuff up. Jokes on you.
Lol are you serious. Go see any negative comment I've ever made about sony or ps. Not one. I love my ps4 pro. Loved my ps3 too. But sony dropped the ball so far. This isnt about sides. I'm sorry if your a fanboy and cant see facts for facts. I will own a ps5 and xsx and a gaming comp and probably rarely play any of them because of work. That doesnt stop me from being able to clearly see xbox is really pulling all the stops going into this gen.You trying too hard it's really transparent.
Read the comment above mine . Exact same sentiment. Everyone wanted ps5 to bring a little more.
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Null_Key
Neo Member
This I agree with. Mark Cerny is good, but his PS4 presentation was far better. Even without a live audience, If anything Xbox beat the marketing, information release, and consumer relations and far better than Sony. The Ceo comes off as incompetent, we need for Shu or Andrew House.
xool
Member
Basically it's "we need to reduce power to the thrusters, or the shields will go down" and "the engines can't take much more of this" - he could have said it simpler I feel.
I think the clocking is automatic not a dev decision (though that would be interesting too), with the GPU taking preference if its power draw causes the total system power draw to exceed the figure they've got.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
In the presentation Cerny specified both the CPU and GPU would run max clocks most of the time ( that can mean 92%, 95% or 98% ). Surely it's not a 9.2 TF machine
few sec. earlier he also said the same crap for GPU. Hey, but probably Penello or Arthur Gies knows more.
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
To my ignorant eyes, the idea of splitting memories to have a very fast portion is simple yet obvious. Not everyone seems convinced of this, surely not Cerny who went with unified memory, but I also see Xbox idea.
I would fucking love to have a master on this shit sometimes.
travisktl
Member
We'll have to see how Xbox is handling their version of 3D audio, but the PS5 seems to be doing it in a completely different way than Series X. Xbox has already adopted support for Atmos, but as Cerny said, what they're wanting to achieve is far beyond what Atmos is capable of. They have an audio block with the compute power equal to the entire Jaguar processor that was in the PS4. I think it will end up making a bigger difference than people think. If they are able to get custom HRTF maps for people, that would completely change how a game's audio is perceived for each person, because it will be custom tailored to how your ears are shaped.
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Oh wait I have.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Then how do you expect them to make the Lockhart much cheaper than the Series X? Unless you think they're trying to sell the Lockhart for like 50 less than the Series X while being around 4TF.
I have to believe, it's also for thermals as well, in addition to "shifting" but Marks not gonna say that in his presentation. It's AMD Smartshift in new RDNA2 terms.
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PaintTinJr
Member
My initial reaction after glimpsing the specs over at EG was that I wanted to upload the Gif of Beau Bennet from the Ranch getting given a salad for his lunch. But after watching the whole thing – intently - these are the points I took away, in order of importance.
1. Going for more CUs than 36 didn’t fit with scene complexity in the game development they analysed. So even if packing workloads into 52 CUs resulted in as little as 10% more wasted compute than 36 CUs. At those relative speeds both are in touching distance.
36 @ 80% efficient * 2.23GHz * 64 * 2 = 8.22TF
52 @ 70% efficient * 1.825GHz * 64 * 2 = 8.5TF
2. Higher clocks provide better performance throughout the GPU, with Fillrate being the major one he mentioned specifically – so might be like comparing PS5 as Nvidia versus XsX as AMD GPU.
3. The die space in the APU used for their custom IO complex – with SRAM, Kraken (zlib enhanced) decompression unit and DMA controller, along with two I/O co-processors - is the real next-gen component and worth the sacrifice(IMHO), as it will make a radical difference in how the 16GB pool of GDDR6 will appear by size to game developers – removing the need to waste 2/3rds of the memory for assets your viewpoint isn’t looking at, like in this gen – so probably an effective increase in memory of 2GB to 10GB (1 to 5) for what we see on screen, even if we forget about the playstation unique GPU cache scrubbing feature(garbage collector) and the free Kraken h/w decompression making the 16gb of GDDR6 more effective.
4. The performance in the PS5 ssd flash controller is going to be significantly more important than the memory speed differences and the ssd drive speed differences of the consoles imply.
5. The simplicity and automatic ability to get the new memory controller/ssd benefits on the PS5 without additional work is likely to make it the target system for 3D party developers; especially if it takes less memory from developers for the PS5 OS.
6. Replacing the Nvme drive in the PS5 with alternatives that meet technical requirements will be possible, meaning improving specs, falling prices and competition by different brands will eventually reduce the costs of upgrading the 860GB nvme chip to be much cheaper than XsX’s exclusive proprietary Seagate nvme storage and the ability to park data on USB HDDs, means large cheap external SSDs will probably be used in the meantime with minimal inconvenience.
7. Their custom TEMPEST 3D AudioTech is a customized CU to be a lot like an SPU, and seems like it might be worth the effort.
8. Clock boosting looks like a very green balancing act and in the long run will probably result in 9.2TF performance, but those games will be at maximum efficiency workloads, so in reality getting more performance in real-terms. It is almost like the hardware clock is grading the development quality of the publisher by clock speed. My understanding was that it is like two people eat the same food, but one does an office job all day and then needs a high intensity workout to burn off excess energy. Someone else does a physically demanding job all day and so relaxes when they finish as their food and work are in balance.
9. They were very vague about the RT capabilities - which worries me as that was the real next-gen feature I wanted - but on balance I suspect magnitude of the bottlenecks that the PS5 design has removed for game developers, will result in many games performing better on PS5 than XsX, even if on paper the one important Xbox number is 2.8TF higher.
On the fence about buying straight away because of the vague RT talk, might be more inclined to buy the XsX first if it is better at RT.
1. Going for more CUs than 36 didn’t fit with scene complexity in the game development they analysed. So even if packing workloads into 52 CUs resulted in as little as 10% more wasted compute than 36 CUs. At those relative speeds both are in touching distance.
36 @ 80% efficient * 2.23GHz * 64 * 2 = 8.22TF
52 @ 70% efficient * 1.825GHz * 64 * 2 = 8.5TF
2. Higher clocks provide better performance throughout the GPU, with Fillrate being the major one he mentioned specifically – so might be like comparing PS5 as Nvidia versus XsX as AMD GPU.
3. The die space in the APU used for their custom IO complex – with SRAM, Kraken (zlib enhanced) decompression unit and DMA controller, along with two I/O co-processors - is the real next-gen component and worth the sacrifice(IMHO), as it will make a radical difference in how the 16GB pool of GDDR6 will appear by size to game developers – removing the need to waste 2/3rds of the memory for assets your viewpoint isn’t looking at, like in this gen – so probably an effective increase in memory of 2GB to 10GB (1 to 5) for what we see on screen, even if we forget about the playstation unique GPU cache scrubbing feature(garbage collector) and the free Kraken h/w decompression making the 16gb of GDDR6 more effective.
4. The performance in the PS5 ssd flash controller is going to be significantly more important than the memory speed differences and the ssd drive speed differences of the consoles imply.
5. The simplicity and automatic ability to get the new memory controller/ssd benefits on the PS5 without additional work is likely to make it the target system for 3D party developers; especially if it takes less memory from developers for the PS5 OS.
6. Replacing the Nvme drive in the PS5 with alternatives that meet technical requirements will be possible, meaning improving specs, falling prices and competition by different brands will eventually reduce the costs of upgrading the 860GB nvme chip to be much cheaper than XsX’s exclusive proprietary Seagate nvme storage and the ability to park data on USB HDDs, means large cheap external SSDs will probably be used in the meantime with minimal inconvenience.
7. Their custom TEMPEST 3D AudioTech is a customized CU to be a lot like an SPU, and seems like it might be worth the effort.
8. Clock boosting looks like a very green balancing act and in the long run will probably result in 9.2TF performance, but those games will be at maximum efficiency workloads, so in reality getting more performance in real-terms. It is almost like the hardware clock is grading the development quality of the publisher by clock speed. My understanding was that it is like two people eat the same food, but one does an office job all day and then needs a high intensity workout to burn off excess energy. Someone else does a physically demanding job all day and so relaxes when they finish as their food and work are in balance.
9. They were very vague about the RT capabilities - which worries me as that was the real next-gen feature I wanted - but on balance I suspect magnitude of the bottlenecks that the PS5 design has removed for game developers, will result in many games performing better on PS5 than XsX, even if on paper the one important Xbox number is 2.8TF higher.
On the fence about buying straight away because of the vague RT talk, might be more inclined to buy the XsX first if it is better at RT.
Stuart360
Member
I think its only fair to say the PS5 is still a good machine. I mean its not a XB1/PS4 situation where both were very underwhelming power wise at launch, with one being a bit less of a dud than the other. Both XSX and PS5 are powerful consoles, probably similar to what the 360 was at launch (compared to PC's of the time).
mitchman
Gold Member
Well, I guess I wasn't completely off the mark here.
Joey.
Member
I'm listening to IGN podcast...
With the Xbox Series X specs fully released, the whole panel is pretty unanimous that they think the XSX will be priced at $599.99, and that it will be sold at a loss. They have an article breaking down the parts/specs and if you wer to buy these parts to build a PC it would cost $1000.00.
They think the XSX will be $599, PS5 $499 (this was before the PS5 specs released today), XSS will be $399.
Just predictions of course.
XSX will be a monster though.
With the Xbox Series X specs fully released, the whole panel is pretty unanimous that they think the XSX will be priced at $599.99, and that it will be sold at a loss. They have an article breaking down the parts/specs and if you wer to buy these parts to build a PC it would cost $1000.00.
They think the XSX will be $599, PS5 $499 (this was before the PS5 specs released today), XSS will be $399.
Just predictions of course.
XSX will be a monster though.
Yeah still a good machine if prices right for sure. Guess we were all just hoping for a bit closer 11tf range
Ellery
Member
Yup they have handled it badly and I have no idea if it has to do with corona virus or why they had this weird reveal in a tech talk kind of way.
Microsoft for sure made the best out of it in revealing the console (compared to Sony), but to be fair the Xbox One has a disasterously bad library of games and basically no 2020 games to be excited about while Sony is releasing Final Fantasy VII Remake, The Last of Us 2 and Ghosts of Tsushima which are games in 2 month span that are better than what Xbox had to offer in the last 7 years.
Don't worry about the hardware itself. Lots of loudmouths talking right now about the small Teraflop difference like it actually means something. Also price has not been revealed yet. That will be a huge diciding factor for many casual gamers and I have the same sentiment many here have that Sony has to price it lower. My guess would be Sony $499 and Series X $599 as of right now
icerock
Member
And? That is going to be a potential bottleneck for a large GPU running at 1.825GHz in addition to a 3.8GHz CPU. Which was the point the guy was originally making. We had this discussion couple of days back, Series X is monster of a console, but it's memory configuration is not ideal. It could be starved off bandwidth. Consoles are always going to come with compromises, MS did on memory. Sony, pretty much everywhere.
I think he explained it as well as he could've, it's just a complex topic to navigate tbh. My read is, they're giving the option to devs to prioritize. Besides, if we take his words at face value, couple of % on either end would result in only a very marginal downgrade in performance.
It's annoying (and expected) that folks would twist it and try to push their narrative though.
It's as good a machine they could put out given the development and changes it went through (plus possibly lower build target?). It's only paling in comparison to Series X, because MS went balls out. Should give credit to MS for being bold with their approach, than laying into Sonys' engineering team.
saintjules
Member
Ok, I am going to post two pics and I am waiting on more (back, triggers and light bar). I compared measurements to the current DS4, and it appears the grips on this mockup/prototype/or elaborate fake are indeed fatter. One thing that is making me a little suspicious, is that the connection ports are the same as the DS4, but that could be for legacy usage, and the extra "hole" Cerny mentioned does not appear to be present like the patent pictures. Now that could be either moved to a different location, thus waiting on more pics.
Otherwise, outside of a few minor perceivable aesthetic differences, it appears to look the same. And why on a Vaio? I thought they were out of production, at least with the Sony branding, no?
I will let Detective GAF do their diligence:
Was this caught
Mod of War
? Coincidence
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xool
Member
According to all the data and theoreticals I have 2.23GHz is 1.9x to 2x the power draw of the same number of CUs at 1.8GHz .. that's a lot of power ..
..it would be 33% more power consumption for 10.2 TF for the GPU compared to 52CUs at 1.8 giving 12TF ..
More power for less TF - I cannot believe this is deliberate design, and not compensation for a poor hand dealt to them due to circumstances out of their control.
..it would be 33% more power consumption for 10.2 TF for the GPU compared to 52CUs at 1.8 giving 12TF ..
More power for less TF - I cannot believe this is deliberate design, and not compensation for a poor hand dealt to them due to circumstances out of their control.
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Null_Key
Neo Member
This isn't necessarily true if the ram amount exceeds the 10GB threshold, at that point you must prioritize your instructions between ones that requires the higher bandwidth from the ones that doesn't, granted it maybe awhile before that is required, but who know this high resolution textures and resolution are each memory up like its nothing. In short it's a bottleneck, albeit its a small one right now. Logically speaking, its simliar to the original Xbox One between using Esram and DDR, granted this time around its not as big of a bottleneck. Gaming wise, 360 really introduced the unified memory, which chocked the PS3, which begs the question why MS moved away from there own terrific design.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Yeah I brought this up a few pages ago, sure amused me as well
I'm going to make a prediction, you can bookmark this like a time capsule: Microsoft will increase the GPU and CPU clock speeds before launch (..like they did with the cpu before Xbox one launch) or sometime after launch..(like Nintendo did with the Switch with an system update).
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Well, narrow and faster like it was previously said.
Stuart360
Member
I thought 2.0ghz was ridiculous when that was the rumour, 2.2ghz is beyond mindboggling. No way would you set out making a console with that in mind. Simple fact is 10.3tf sounds a hell of a lot better than 9.2tf, especially when you know your opposition is bringing 12.1.
I dont care what anyone says, and imo tech sites will prove it after launch, PS5 wont be running close to 10.3tf when running actual games.
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Reindeer
Member
The fact they are comparing them to PC parts already means you shouldn't be listening to them on this. You cannot compare off the shelf price to what these companies get.
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Stuart360
Member
The fact that the clocks are locked shows the headroom is there, but why would they need to up them?. I think they have gone for stability and balance with XSX.
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