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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Bo_Hazem

Banned
Ok, so is not a completely separate hardware like SeX, or it's the same? Because, again, if without SeX solution and just with raw power you will need 25 TF for current standard, what the fuck PS5 do?

They are all seperated yet integrated, if that makes sense. Meaning they are paired together, probably to work faster and better than RTX solution? We should see and wait, but that's VERY likely with XSX making 100fps at native 4K with ray tracing with no optimization compared to 2080ti struggling around 60fps.
 
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kyliethicc

Member
I know I’m gonna get flamed for this, but I don’t care. I wouldn’t count out ReRAM just yet, as well as full backwards compatibility with all four previous gens of PlayStation. That GDC talk focused on features they confirmed way back in 2019 and isn’t even a consumer-focused event. And remember what Jim Ryan said regarding PS5’s unannounced features:



I remember listening to Jason Schreier’s recent podcast and he was talking about how developers were texting him after the GDC stream about how the PlayStation 5 hardware is more superior in ways they “can’t talk about.” In other words, they’ve been NDA’d pretty hard and would be sued into oblivion if they end up spilling the beans.

What Schreier said during the podcast:







Podcast link (Timestamp: 42:09-51:20)

I believe Sony will have mic-drop moments at their blowout reveal and I think ReRAM will be our “8GB GDDR5” moment.
Yeah I noticed this too. I wonder what are these things devs wish they can say about PS5 but Sony haven’t announced? My first guess was the controller, but that seems a bit too simple to be it. Maybe it’s their APIs and developer tools? Maybe it’s this ReRam, idk much on that. What else could it be?
 

ethomaz

Banned
Ok, so is not a completely separate hardware like SeX, or it's the same? Because, again, if without SeX solution and just with raw power you will need 25 TF for current standard, what the fuck PS5 do?
Inside of the CU or DCU (called WGP) you can have fixed units.

That is a WGP.

images


AMD probably added RT units inside it.
 
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They are all seperated yet integrated, if that makes sense. Meaning the are paired together, probably to work faster and better than RTX solution? We should see and wait, but that's VERY likely with XSX making 100fps at native 4K with ray tracing with no optimization compared to 2080ti struggling around 60fps.
This is what I understood too, I was trying to contextualize the explanation of another dude.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
As someone who will still be on 1080p for the foreseeable future (TV is 1080p, no reason to upgrade unless it breaks), I'm expecting to get 1080p @ 60fps on all PS5 titles.

Something that has me excited is that the PS4 BC games will apparently benefit from performance boosts. Could finally see Bloodborne at a stable 60fps.

Also, being on a base PS4, I don't have access to things like God of Wars 60fps in pro mode. I imagine I'll get to enable that..?

Also, also: does anyone yet know how much RAM the PS5 is reserving for the OS? Maybe 2.5GB, like the Xbox Series X? Was there any mention of a dedicated 1-2GB as speculated, leaving the full 16GB for developers? Or is that now wishful thinking?

Probably nothing on the Ram for OS because of ultra fast SSD. You should by any cheap-ass 4K tv and I assure your you'll be 100% happy and have a huge boost in terms of graphics and details. Go to the nearest shop and pick the cheapest 4K HDR available, I guarantee you will be more than satisfied.
 

semicool

Banned
They are all seperated yet integrated, if that makes sense. Meaning the are paired together, probably to work faster and better than RTX solution? We should see and wait, but that's VERY likely with XSX making 100fps at native 4K with ray tracing with no optimization compared to 2080ti struggling around 60fps.
You don't know that and I disagree, but I could be wrong. I believe the RT solutions between the two are setup differently. You need to change your statements as it's something you "believe" and don't know for sure. I believe the XSX setup is like Nvidias with separate dedicated RT cores from the Xbox architects statements on DF. I believe Sony's is different based on Cerny's statements in his presentation.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
This is what I understood too, I was trying to contextualize the explanation of another dude.

More like twisted words of that guy, with all due respect to him. I would say RT comes as standard with all RDNA2 dies paired with the CU's that's why each CU is massive even being 7nm compared to 28nm.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Funny how everyone now talks about RDNA 1.0 1.5 2.0 2.1 2.1 (higher is better), TFLOPs (my flops are better than yours), Ray Tracing (HARDWARE)......but no talk about games?! I mean you guys are all Mark Cerny now?

:messenger_hushed:
We are about 9 months from release yet.
Games are being showed to PS4 yet.

Games for PS5 will be showed around the old E3 time... June probably.
 

ethomaz

Banned
You don't know that and I disagree, but I could be wrong. I believe the RT solutions between the two are setup differently. You need to change your statements as it's something you "believe" and don't know for sure. I believe the XSX setup is like Nvidias with separate dedicated RT cores from the Xbox architects statements on DF. I believe Sony's is different based on Cerny's statements in his presentation.
Both are the same.
RDNA2 has “separated” units for RT just like nVidia.

I just have the feeling it is not stronger like nVidia one.

BTW nVidia RT cores are not exactly separated.
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
You don't know that and I disagree, but I could be wrong. I believe the RT solutions between the two are setup differently. You need to change your statements as it's something you "believe" and don't know for sure. I believe the XSX setup is like Nvidias with separate dedicated RT cores from the Xbox architects statements on DF. I believe Sony's is different based on Cerny's statements in his presentation.

:messenger_fearful:

3ti7jq.jpg
 

semicool

Banned
Both are the same.
RDNA2 has “separated” units for RT just like nVidia.

I just have the feeling it is not stronger like nVidia one.

BTW nVidia RT cores are not exactly separated.
Check. Not saying all this is true but for the love of....stop acting like anyone knows the definitive answer on this...we don't know yet and there's a strong possibility the 2 systems are setup differently for RT, there's reason to at least believe

See:


Everyone is speculating at this point.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
Check. Not saying all this is true but for the love of....stop acting like anyone knows the definitive answer on this...we don't know yet and there's a strong possibility the 2 systems are setup differently for RT, there's reason to at least believe

See:

The less impressive RT solution by you link is due to PS5 having less CUs so less RT units than Xbox.

You are trying to make up something against all the evidences is the opposite.
 
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M-V2

Member
Funny how everyone now talks about RDNA 1.0 1.5 2.0 2.1 2.1 (higher is better), TFLOPs (my flops are better than yours), Ray Tracing (HARDWARE)......but no talk about games?! I mean you guys are all Mark Cerny now?

:messenger_hushed:
Games will come, visual fidelity will be all over the place, there is really no other possible outcome. But, you know, is also good to try learning something new on what makes games... games.
 

semicool

Banned
The less impressive RT solution by you link is due to PS5 having less CUs so less RT units than Xbox.

You are trying to make up something against all the evidences is the opposite.
I just posted it as showing speculation. There's going to be lots of speculation before we know...which is my point ...we don't know....that includes you.
 
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Can someone explain this BS 🤦

2jZlx0Y.jpg


its rendered a useless opinion because we are using RDNA2 and not RDNA1

RDNA2 increases the effectiveness of higher clocks on performance
 

liviopangt

Neo Member
You should put in mind those numbers with SSD's superiority can bloat to 3-4 times higher, meaning that 448GB/s coud bring all data needed in one go, but that 10GB with 500GB/s is bottlenecked.

exact ps5 has that monster of custom i \ o that allows you to directly fill the ram without going through the cpu in less than 2 seconds, and the cpu is not minimized in the data decompression, the cpu is free from decompression and writing in ram rereading processing and rewriting in ram to start reading the gpu of the data, reads the processing data only once and rewrites in ram once only in practice it does 2 fewer steps with a mass of data at full capacity
 

Audiophile

Gold Member
Ok, so is not a completely separate hardware like SeX, or it's the same? Because, again, if without SeX solution and just with raw power you will need 25 TF for current standard, what the fuck PS5 do?

Based on everything that has been said the SeX solution is the RDNA2 solution, is the PS5 solution.

There's no separate hardware in terms of layout, the RT acceleration consists of an RT core (intersection engine) in the CU. That RT core is (in the case of XSX) the equivalent of 13TF of conventional compute when accelerating BVH creation/traversal.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
so basically we are excited about everything that Cerny said, and making it even better with our interpretations but we are downplaying everything that MS said about RT, VRS, 3D Audio, velocity architecture, BCPacks, DLI etc. ffs this is sad.

power of the ssd, less cus is better, higher clocks on console from manufacturer of PS4 aka jet engine is good as well now....I am guessing that if Sony would announce ps5 with 18cu at 3ghz some here would try to spin it as well (We would get videos of cars vs motorcycle)

You know why, because we've seen the best looking games from PS4 this gen, and Sony has a track record of being game-focused since 1994. And we mentioned all those because those aren't interpreted, those are facts said by the LEAD architect of PS5 himself.

XSX is a great piece of hardware, what it lacks in speed compensates by brute forcing it as described by devs. Let's see how this "our most powerful console" turn out.
 
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semicool

Banned
Xbox fans are really something else :messenger_tears_of_joy:
When I say PS fans can reach Xbox fans level people disagree rssss

While the normal fans are fine in both the extreme ones are way high level on MS side.
There's plenty of that from both Sony and Xbox fans, don't be one sided blinded.
 
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Xbox fans are really something else :messenger_tears_of_joy:
When I say PS fans can reach Xbox fans level people disagree rssss

While the normal fans are fine in both the extreme ones are way high level on MS side.
You need to understand them, their preferred brand has never constitute a monopoly two times at least. They desperately needs those 16% more teraFLOPs.

There's plenty of that from both Sony and Xbox fans, don't be one sided blinded.
It's true, but also damn funny. I mean "Xbox ass", c'mon lol
 
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M-V2

Member
I really want to know more about PS5 features in terms of APIs and software, though.
Believe me when I say it, there's many features Cerny didn't talk about. I heard the podcast of Jason schreier when he said that many devs told him that the ps5 is superior in many ways, and there are things Cerny didn't mention in his talk.

Imo the marketing for the ps5 didn't start yet. Wait & see.
 

ethomaz

Banned
There's plenty of that from both Sony and Xbox fans, don't be one sided blinded.
There is a clear different between extremes.

You can say I’m a PS fanboy but you ever saw I offending any Xbox fan?

While we disagree a great extent I never reached that low.

The same can be saw in other place with PS fans and Xbox fans.
 
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Even Vulkan has VRS, although Sony doesn't use it, just saying it's not exclusive to weak-ass DirectX 12 that was noticeably weaker system compared to Vulkan (open-source, linux).

But who knows, could they use it? It has Mesh Shading, VRS, Ray Tracing, and Machine Learning as well.

Vulkan%2012%20Press%20Deck_02.png


Vulkan%2012%20Press%20Deck_07.png
Someone knows why PS5 use a separate chip to do Occlusion Culling if they have mesh shaders already, or they will use mesh shader is that chip is because is faster or what ?
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Someone knows why PS5 use a separate chip to do Occlusion Culling if they have mesh shaders already, or they will use mesh shader is that chip is because is faster or what ?

No idea, what I know that Mark Cerny dealt with all potential bottlenecks, so it can be slower than anticipated that it needed a supplemental chip? PS5 is heavily customized and many are still trying to understand it.
 

xool

Member
ive sorta kept my opinion to myself over all of this but after going over some things i am starting to understand what cerny was going for.

i wont be comparing it to the beast that is the xbox Sex. maybe more of the ps4


if everyone here remembers how HZD engine runs it has the slice of pie style FOV. with in that fov is where it streams off textures and objects and it helps that its procedural so alot of the scene isnt saved in ram just waiting to be called when the camera moves. the cpu just places what ever the heck it wants there to paint the scene. the outside of the FOV is also stored in ram with minimal assets just in case of a wuick turn or a panning motion takes place. its a smart way to run an open world which most games have done

during cernys talk he showed a small clip on the screen of this same FOV but with someone in a room walking around. the whole point of that brought me back to the HZD style of streaming in assets but with PS5 youre able to not have to save any of the assets in ram and can instantaneously Pull directly from the SSD with out ever noticing.

so the way i think ps5 games will be made to run, is that most games unlike now where you load in an entire map or an entire room or what ever building youre in, it will only load and stream in what ever is in your FOV on the fly. it can use its 9TF engine to just render the slice of pie in front of you. and not waste any power on loading in the entire screne, map, room, building, forrest, or town.

please feel free to correct me anywhere that i was wrong.

(No) .. that "slice of pie" was just a visualisation of "view frustum culling" - all that stuff was in RAM, even the stuff round the "pie" (you re right about some procedural placement though)

Even with the superfast SSD if you try to pull the stuff outside the "slice" from SSD in real time you'll start to get limits to how fast you can turn in game - not good for an action game imo.
 
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kareemna

Member
If you rewatch the video, you will notice how Ceryn highlighted that increasing the CU doesn't mean faster TMU, ROPS..etc. While increasing the clock rate means all other components will be faster.

I think this philosophy is specifically tailored to avoid bottlenecks on the GPU, which i think they went through with the PS4pro having a 64 ROP gpu which was the same amount as X1X and where basically an overkill for the pro as it cant fill them out.
 
Guys I have a question. I know each new architecture improve memory bandwidth but I wonder if it can also reduce VRAM usage in games as well? Sometimes 1080ti vs 2080ti shows similar VRAM usage, but there are also scenarios when VRAM usage looks little bit different and I wonder why is that?
Yes and Not, will be reduce as they need less memory for streaming propurses but as you know with better graphics comes more details in models and textures so in the end will be more GBs but now use for things in display.

Basically this means the start of the train poin for GPUs with less than 8 GB and also the ports of Switch well
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
I am still a ps guy, but i will call out fud when i see it.

This load time vs resolution thing is absurd. No one in their right mind cares about 5 second load times especially in an age where system resume exists across multiple games and everything is open world with barely load times anyway apart from when you decide to fast travel.

I'm sure the ssd will offer more advantages than load times. I was specifically replying to the guy who bright up 5 second load times.

In a friendly tone (no ridicule/sarcasm), do you read through the pages? All of those points have been thoroughly discussed, compared. It's a personal thing to not read anything you don't want to, but it's better to see what others provide and discuss. You can always buy XSX anyway, but let's not go in circles with this "only load times" nonsense.
 

Marlenus

Member
If you rewatch the video, you will notice how Ceryn highlighted that increasing the CU doesn't mean faster TMU, ROPS..etc. While increasing the clock rate means all other components will be faster.

I think this philosophy is specifically tailored to avoid bottlenecks on the GPU, which i think they went through with the PS4pro having a 64 ROP gpu which was the same amount as X1X and where basically an overkill for the pro as it cant fill them out.

There are 4 TMUs per CU so increasing Compute Units increases TMUs so texturing in scaled.

ROPs are separate but they are not tied to anything so just having more of them is entirely possible. Same goes for the rasterisers but Xbox One had more than double the triangle setup rate vs the PS4 and that made no difference so I doubt a 20% increase in triangle rate will change anything.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
It’s PS3 Cell vs 360 all over again. PS5 is weaker and certain people just can’t let it go.

Here is a little information some people seem to be missing. Xbox Series X is designed by smart engineers too.

Hmmm, you smell like PC, and I think you'll never buy an Xbox SX. Kinda deja vu :pie_thinking:
 
If you rewatch the video, you will notice how Ceryn highlighted that increasing the CU doesn't mean faster TMU, ROPS..etc. While increasing the clock rate means all other components will be faster.

I think this philosophy is specifically tailored to avoid bottlenecks on the GPU, which i think they went through with the PS4pro having a 64 ROP gpu which was the same amount as X1X and where basically an overkill for the pro as it cant fill them out.

It's also my assumption that the 36 compute units - the same as Pro - is linked to helping devs get up to speed with the new platform as quickly as possible.

At the start of the presentation, Cerny talked about the 1-2 months for PS4 but for PS5 they are aiming for 0-1 month. Probably only applicable to the bigger 3rd party studios.
 
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Lampiao

Member
One thing that bothers me about this exaggeratedly tall 2.2 clock is that there will be a console in the future that allows the replacement of the ps5, to be backwards compatible, a new technology will have to use superior clocks and this is not always possible. It may be a indication that ps5 is the last physical PlayStation.
 
I know I’m gonna get flamed for this, but I don’t care. I wouldn’t count out ReRAM just yet, as well as full backwards compatibility with all four previous gens of PlayStation. That GDC talk focused on features they confirmed way back in 2019 and isn’t even a consumer-focused event. And remember what Jim Ryan said regarding PS5’s unannounced features:

I have the same doubt ... please don't be the details of sound hrtf I love to see another chip for some specifics functions like physics or machine learning.

I remember listening to Jason Schreier’s recent podcast and he was talking about how developers were texting him after the GDC stream about how the PlayStation 5 hardware is more superior in ways they “can’t talk about.” In other words, they’ve been NDA’d pretty hard and would be sued into oblivion if they end up spilling the beans.

What Schreier said during the podcast:

Podcast link (Timestamp: 42:09-51:20)

I believe Sony will have mic-drop moments at their blowout reveal and I think ReRAM will be our “8GB GDDR5” moment.

This could be just the SSD specifications :lollipop_neutral:
 

liviopangt

Neo Member
everyone assumes that ps5 has worse rt because it has 36 cu 1 cor rt for cu. and if cerny has put inside the cu 2 core rt for cu it would have 72 cores rt, remember that nobody has the dimensions of the ps5 die do not do it deceive by the number of cu, for those who doubt that it is rdna2 because it does not have the vrs, and because cerny has eliminated it since it cannot use it and optimize it and it is only a waste of resources for memory and executions instead of the vrs has implemented the geometry egine which is a much more powerful and optimizable engine in programming and intersection egine in addition the internal parts of the gpu have a frequency of 33% faster than that of the alu (rasterization, cache and most likely also the rt cores)
 
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