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[Bo_Hazem]

If just for the curiosity and satisfying geekiness then great, but if for fueling fanboyism then no.

FEED. ME. MORE.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

So the Sony-cultists from this forum say that Dictator is MS biased because they don't like the reality, nice...

no, we just don’t agree with his position of TF being the be all end all metric to definitively state one platform is superior, or that the 16% advantage is worth crowing about

 

[Evilms]

Not just that, but the decompression you get with Kraken would take the equivalent of 9 Zen 2 processors......That is just bonkers.....





You guys should have seen how Dictator, Durante and other DF staff use to gang-up on NXgamer trying to embarrass him at every turn on old GAF..........I was one of those who started posting his videos early on, I thought he did great work and his attention to detail was way above the rest....I think that his analysis on the UC4 trailer did him in very early with those guys "how dare you praise a Sony game so much" and of course when he showed many things in his faceoff the others didn't and showed opposed framerate views in his videos, the mobbers came at him with lots of angst and vitriol...…It's crazy that he always stayed civil through it all though...Kudos to that...

Yet I think early in Resetera's forum life, one of his videos was at loggerheads with that of DF's and they came at him fierce, Durante was a mod over there at the time and he went in hard and encouraged others to do the same, he never locked the thread when the attacks became more toxic as he was the primary gunner...It was then I think NXgamer decided to quit and thankfully many fans rallied and he came back 1 year or so later...…Man this comparison business is really serious business......Yet, I always appreciate a level head in those things and he gave so much new and valuable insight/info into every single analysis and interjected a bit of humor in there as well, which suggests a very informed and well rounded individual.....

Of course that crowd of Dictator, Durante etc....we don't really see eye to eye and had many disagreements on OLD GAF, nothing has changed though they argue with those who don't agree with their assessments or who have different views, they immediately get to personal insults and grandstanding...….

In any case, we would like to remain on the positives.....I wish NXgamer the best, and I hope he maintains his composure......Yet moreso, I hope he is preparing some awesome videos for us next gen.....I think it will be the most exciting gen of the last few decades...…...Hardware is finally heavily customized and great again...

I didn't know about the story with NXG, it's always good to know even if their penchant for Microsoft isn't from this generation but rather from the PS360 era.

And the presentation of the XBO X and the XSX exclusively at their home shows that they are not neutral.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

no, we just don’t agree with his position of TF being the be all end all metric to definitively state one platform is superior, or that the 16% advantage is worth crowing about

SSDs are a step in the ideal direction even more for consoles, for both consoles.
Those machines are meant to be easy and istantaneus. It is a great thing for OS usability in relation to the identity of a console, for starters.

 

[BlackBuzzard]

So the Sony-cultists from this forum say that Dictator is MS biased because they don't like the reality, nice...

*Looks at post history*

So whose alt account are you?

 

[SgtCaffran]

Andrew Goossen. "For the Series X, this work is offloaded onto dedicated hardware and the shader can continue to run in parallel with full performance." Doesn't sound like the intersection calculation is built into the shaders for XSX like pS5 which Cerny said it's built into the shaders(maybe it's both separate and built in for MS which is where the 25TF number comes from ?) which is why the ps5 shaders are bigger than PS4 s so....if so...does that indicate a different setup? Perhaps. Microsoft would just be doing what Nvidia does with their separate RT cores where it does sound like Sony is. Also if built into the shader for Sony does that mean that the shader is occupied for Ray Tracing? Which is different from what Gossen is saying for XSX. Someone should ask Sony that particular detail on their RT setup. Again just speculation. But the potential for that speculation is there based on what both architects have said so far.

For RDNA2, the hardware raytracing component is an intersection engine that exists in parallel to the shader engine inside a compute unit. There is an AMD patent that shows how this works (was already known in 2019).

So with RDNA2 you are able to calculate intersections between rays and triangles or boxes with these "intersection engines". Because they run independently from the shader engines, you are able to do this without a penalty. This is where the 25TF number comes from, since if you wanted to do the intersections with the regular GPU blocks it would take 13TF to do so. But now, you can do it in parallel. The rest of the raytracing calculations have to be done by the regular GPU blocks.

Quote by Cerny about PS5 raytracing: "based on the same strategy as AMD's upcoming PC GPUs". It is not confirmed that Xbox use the intersection engines but it is confirmed that they use RDNA2 and one of the main features of RDNA2 is... raytracing with intersection engines. So indeed it is like 99% that both use the same AMD technology but of course the APIs will be different.

 

[Fake]

So the Sony-cultists from this forum say that Dictator is MS biased because they don't like the reality, nice...

Disagree with someone = Sony-cultists?

 

[BlackBuzzard]

More and more game devs praising Tempest 3D audio, but what would they know they actually work with this stuff.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

If XSX doesn't has a chip audio for this that will true but is not, XSX has a chip audio also, the same peoply of Ninja theory says they don't need to use resource from other parts now.

Xbox Series X will have a dedicated audio chip, Ninja Theory engineers reveal

Xbox Series X will have a dedicated audio chip, Ninja Theory engineers reveal Hardware acceleration could enable 3D audio Xbox Series X will have its own dedicated audio chip, which will improve the quality of sound in next-gen games, first-party engineers have told VGC. Hardware...

www.neogaf.com

But we are reading CPU, not GPU. So it might only solved one part of the problem. Sony on the other part is referred to it as an engine, and it's based on a AMD GPU used back in the PS3 era with modifications of course.

It's pretty heavy, much more heavy work than what's on XSX. But' we need to hear more about it from other sources.

 

[xacto]

Quality.

This is what happens when the boys with the 12 TF machine are STILL FRUSTRATED by the PS5.

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

Wait. Wait.
Are we REALLY sure about this? Because this would be a total 180 and put PS5 on top, kind of strange that Cerny didn't stright up explained that very easily so everyone could catch it.

I dont know man if the person who wrote the article is correct or not, reason why I included the source/link so people can check it out.

What I can assure you is that he did not get any data from this

 

[Metroiddarks]

But we are reading CPU, not GPU. So it might only solved one part of the problem. Sony on the other part is referred to it as an engine, and it's based on a AMD GPU used back in the PS3 era with modifications of course.

It's pretty heavy, much more heavy work than what's on XSX. But' we need to hear more about it from other sources.

Yeah could be true but

Is not

 

[M-V2]

Let me break down this a bit. Which SSD will not be utilized, Xbox SX or ps5??

It's the Xbox SX, why?? Because;

1. There will be no games made from ground up on SX for 2 years, as we know they're gonna make games for the regular Xbox one for 2 years, which means their SSD will not be utilized.

2. Xbox will release all it's first party games on PC so they will aim for the majority & that means they will put HHD in mind again. Let's not forget the Xbox Series S, I'm sure it will come with lower SSD speed, so all in all it's not looking well for MS when it comes to utilizing the SSD. (That's based on my assumption)


On the other hand 1st party studios on Sony side will do wonders.

 

[vdopey]

You don't know that and I disagree, but I could be wrong. I believe the RT solutions between the two are setup differently. You need to change your statements as it's something you "believe" and don't know for sure. I believe the XSX setup is like Nvidias with separate dedicated RT cores from the Xbox architects statements on DF. I believe Sony's is different based on Cerny's statements in his presentation.

But they have already shown the silicon die no ? Where in that silicon are those RT cores ? they have 52 cus and 2 x 4 core cpus in 360.45 mm2 die size - surely Microsoft would be highlighting the "RT" cores in the silicon, this is the only image I could find of it:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/Xbox_Series_X_chip.jpg,


To me it looks like the 2 cpu blocks followed by all of the CU's im no expert in this, this stuff is beyond me, but also fascinates me. The only thing I know is that its a limited size apu and the 52 cus and 2 cpus must take up a massive amount of the die, so the RT cores have to fit somewhere if they are dedicated and they must be on the apu, so where are they ?

 

[-kb-]

But they have already shown the silicon die no ? Where in that silicon are those RT cores ? they have 52 cus and 2 x 4 core cpus in 360.45 mm2 die size - surely Microsoft would be highlighting the "RT" cores in the silicon, this is the only image I could find of it:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/Xbox_Series_X_chip.jpg,


To me it looks like the 2 cpu blocks followed by all of the CU's im no expert in this, this stuff is beyond me, but also fascinates me. The only thing I know is that its a limited size apu and the 52 cus and 2 cpus must take up a massive amount of the die, so the RT cores have to fit somewhere if they are dedicated and they must be on the apu, so where are they ?

Its a modification to the TMU so your unlikely to see the change from a die shot that is so zoomed out.

 

[ethomaz]

But they have already shown the silicon die no ? Where in that silicon are those RT cores ? they have 52 cus and 2 x 4 core cpus in 360.45 mm2 die size - surely Microsoft would be highlighting the "RT" cores in the silicon, this is the only image I could find of it:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/Xbox_Series_X_chip.jpg,


To me it looks like the 2 cpu blocks followed by all of the CU's im no expert in this, this stuff is beyond me, but also fascinates me. The only thing I know is that its a limited size apu and the 52 cus and 2 cpus must take up a massive amount of the die, so the RT cores have to fit somewhere if they are dedicated and they must be on the apu, so where are they ?

If nothing changed they are here.

It is together with the TMU and Filter Units.
The yellow blocks at right in the pic below.

 

[Insane Metal]

How about CPUs? We now know that the XSX CPU has 5MB os L2 cache, which is interesting since the desktop part has 4MB. Do we know how much L3 it has? Cause the desktop part has 32MB. Their mobile part, however, has only 8MB of L3 cache.

3700X = 3.6Ghz base clock, 4MB L2, 32MB L3
4800H = 2.9Ghz case clock, ?? L2, 8MB L3

It sounds to me like the XSX might be identical to a 3700X performance wise, which is pretty awesome for a console. I wonder if PS5 CPU is based on the same specs. If so it should be in between the 3600X and the 3700X, something like 10% less performance than the XSX.

 

[vdopey]

It is together with the TMU and Filter Units.
The yellow blocks at right in the pic below.

Thanks Ethomaz, appreciated . If that is the case then its also part of the CU in which case right ? So its not completely different silicon its part of the same CU, which is essentially the same as the PS approach or rather the whole AMD approach ?

It also stands to reason the xsx has more interesection engines 36 cus to 52 cus, which is fine.

 

[ethomaz]

Thanks Ethomaz, appreciated . If that is the case then its also part of the CU in which case right ? So its not completely different silicon its part of the same CU, which is essentially the same as the PS approach or rather the whole AMD approach ?

It also stands to reason the xsx has more interesection engines 36 cus to 52 cus, which is fine.

It is either one unit per CU or one unit per WGP (2CUs)... in case Xbox will have more units.

 

[Pirlosuj]

 

[-kb-]

Im going to laugh when his game runs on cards <10TFLOPs and we realise its not coming to PS5 because he was given sacks of cash.

 

[vdopey]

How about CPUs? We now know that the XSX CPU has 5MB os L2 cache, which is interesting since the desktop part has 4MB. Do we know how much L3 it has? Cause the desktop part has 32MB. Their mobile part, however, has only 8MB of L3 cache.

3700X = 3.6Ghz base clock, 4MB L2, 32MB L3
4800H = 2.9Ghz case clock, ?? L2, 8MB L3

It sounds to me like the XSX might be identical to a 3700X performance wise, which is pretty awesome for a console. I wonder if PS5 CPU is based on the same specs. If so it should be in between the 3600X and the 3700X, something like 10% less performance than the XSX.

I think DF speculated that they had cut down the cache I'm pretty sure both Sony and MS are more inline with the mobile part than the desktop part. Also again remember xsx with SMT enabled is 3.6GHz ps5 with SMT enabled is 3.5GHz variable. In normal full boost 3% difference, with the 2% downclock 5% difference in SMT enabled mode, I don't quite understand why MS have an SMT disabled mode at all, why even bother disabling 8 threads ?

 

[xPikYx]

Bo_Hazem

I think you were totally right about the audio thing this morning.

Apparetly XSX could only have 9.6tf of raw power for video purposes after all



Source:

Game-insider.com

Funny times ahead

Mmm discrete GPUs on pc manage audio as well nobody ever noticed a performance gap

 

[-kb-]

I think DF speculated that they had cut down the cache I'm pretty sure both Sony and MS are more inline with the mobile part than the desktop part. Also again remember xsx with SMT enabled is 3.6GHz ps5 with SMT enabled is 3.5GHz variable. In normal full boost 3% difference, with the 2% downclock 5% difference in SMT enabled mode, I don't quite understand why MS have an SMT disabled mode at all, why even bother disabling 8 threads ?

Cause it allows you to increase the clock.

 

[B_Boss]

It’s PS3 Cell vs 360 all over again. PS5 is weaker and certain people just can’t let it go.

Here is a little information some people seem to be missing. Xbox Series X is designed by smart engineers too.

Absolutely and no one should ever deny that. Technical, scientific and historic facts are the facts period and that’s alright.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Im going to laugh when his game runs on cards <10TFLOPs and we realise its not coming to PS5 because he was given sacks of cash.

Exactly we are talking about diference between the consoles but if far of be something which makes impossible to make in ps5 is just
better to say not because I have contract with Xbox.

 

[Pirlosuj]

Im going to laugh when his game runs on cards <10TFLOPs and we realise its not coming to PS5 because he was given sacks of cash.

JAJAJAJAJA OK

 

[Metroiddarks]

Mmm discrete GPUs on pc manage audio as well nobody ever noticed a performance gap

Maybe not the new gen of GPUs in Nvidia and AMD but the older one because now the games will use more power for audio because the console now allow that

 

[CJY]

I've been following these following guys on AMD-related YouTubers/Commentators for a number of years:

Not An Apple Fan

Moore's Law is Dead

AdoredTV

Coreteks

For me, they are the most unbiased, impartial YouTubers out there. (You can verify this by looking through their video post histories). These are the people who gave me confidence in investing in AMD a good while back.

Paul (Not an Apple Fan) - a fellow country-man - put out this video a couple of days ago which I missed until now:



Just thought I'd share it with everyone here. Interesting times ahead for sure.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I think DF speculated that they had cut down the cache I'm pretty sure both Sony and MS are more inline with the mobile part than the desktop part. Also again remember xsx with SMT enabled is 3.6GHz ps5 with SMT enabled is 3.5GHz variable. In normal full boost 3% difference, with the 2% downclock 5% difference in SMT enabled mode, I don't quite understand why MS have an SMT disabled mode at all, why even bother disabling 8 threads ?

I'm pretty sure it is to make them adaptable to the workload they are doing.
On a more general point, the die space for the Zen2 extra cores is probably a bit of a waste of space for both systems based on how little utilisation additional cores help PC gaming performance, but an AMD APU with 3GHz probably meant Zen2 by default. SMT enabled helps efficiency by 10-20% if the core is doing general purpose workloads that need to randomly branch - like if the console core was running a dedicated server for Live or PSN. SMT disabled, the core might be doing more intense compute workloads to help out the GPU or doing like physics, compression, audio or video encoding.

 

[Metroiddarks]

I've been following these following guys on AMD-related YouTubers/Commentators for a number of years:

Not An Apple Fan

Moore's Law is Dead

AdoredTV

Coreteks

For me, they are the most unbiased, impartial YouTubers out there. (You can verify this by looking through their video post histories). These are the people who gave me confidence in investing in AMD a good while back.

Paul (Not an Apple Fan) - a fellow country-man - put out this video a couple of days ago which I missed until now:



Just thought I'd share it with everyone here. Interesting times ahead for sure.

The first two love with passion AMD until the point their judgment is affected sometimes, the third ends very angry when all his inside knowledge of the navy generation was wrong I remember
some fake insiders of the past weeks jajaja.

I didn't know the last one.

 

[quest]

I think DF speculated that they had cut down the cache I'm pretty sure both Sony and MS are more inline with the mobile part than the desktop part. Also again remember xsx with SMT enabled is 3.6GHz ps5 with SMT enabled is 3.5GHz variable. In normal full boost 3% difference, with the 2% downclock 5% difference in SMT enabled mode, I don't quite understand why MS have an SMT disabled mode at all, why even bother disabling 8 threads ?

For xbox one games and an option for developers who don't have engines that scale past 7 threads lot indy guys and lot cross generation titles.

 

[CJY]

The first two love with passion AMD until the point their judgment is affected sometimes, the third ends very angry when all his inside knowledge of the navy generation was wrong I remember
some fake insiders of the past weeks jajaja.

I didn't know the last one.

Agreed on adoredTV, I stopped listening to him mostly after the leak debacle, but I still trust him. I don't think he lied. Just relayed info that was given to him.

 

[Sinthor]

Ummm....looks great I guess? If you want water that looks like it's made out of blocky chunks? Otherwise....SUPER IMPRESSIVE!

 

[Insane Metal]

Very good video from RGT:



(He inverted the SSD info on the table though)

 

[ClearMind]

This is what happens when the boys with the 12 TF machine are STILL FRUSTRATED by the PS5.

Yep, Xbox fanboys thought the Sony fanbase would break down crying like they did back in 2013 but since its not happening they are the ones ironically once again making an ass out of themselves.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

You know what there was some space left on the image explaining legacy modes for PS4 and Pro in Cerny's presentation, and I think there is something cooking up for at least PS3 BC in the background.....

Give credit when credit is due

Did Mark Cerny REVEAL the SHAPE of the PlayStation 5 Console AND BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY in the most SUBTLE way possible? (Visual Proof ITT!!!)

This is NOT a troll thread. When I saw this slide during the morning GDC presentation, I was a bit intrigued by this slide for two things: The Shape of that object resembles ALOT like a traditional console, especially the PlayStation 3 Slim....speaking of which...... The fact that the slide...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Metroiddarks]

I remember was Naughty Dog who in ps3 era use the audio chip or something similar for graphics purpose

 

[SonGoku]

The thing that worries me the most about PS5 is the anemic 448GB/s bandwidth
How is that going to be enough especially considering CPU takes a portion. Is it even possible for RDNA2 to be much more efficient?

 

[SportsFan581]

But they have already shown the silicon die no ? Where in that silicon are those RT cores ? they have 52 cus and 2 x 4 core cpus in 360.45 mm2 die size - surely Microsoft would be highlighting the "RT" cores in the silicon, this is the only image I could find of it:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/Xbox_Series_X_chip.jpg,


To me it looks like the 2 cpu blocks followed by all of the CU's im no expert in this, this stuff is beyond me, but also fascinates me. The only thing I know is that its a limited size apu and the 52 cus and 2 cpus must take up a massive amount of the die, so the RT cores have to fit somewhere if they are dedicated and they must be on the apu, so where are they ?

The RT cores are in the CUs, they aren't separate like Nvidia. That 360mm2 die has twice the transistors of the Xbone X chip, the CU transistor count has fattened up quite a bit.

 

[TGO]

If you listened on earphones or headphones and it only sounded like basic stereo then you're likely one of the unlucky people whose HRTF would sit far outside the norm. A custom HRTF profile like Cerny was alluding to should fix this.

That demo should sound very close to being in the room and voices/sounds should have an eerie sense of locality, presence and subsequent reality.

They also intend to map this tech out to TVs, Soundbars and Surround Sound over time; the latter of which would be like Dolby Atmos on steroids. This effectively makes for one audio standard for all which then makes the best possible situation out of any given setup.

What I mean is it just like good stereo sound.

Man, you seriously need to upgrade your gear. It feels insanely creepy as fuck. You won't understand it without proper set, I'm listening to it from my PC and with Sony small earphones that came with my cellphone 5 years ago (I think with Xperia Z3 or even older the Xperia S).

High quality audio is MASSIVE and cheap sound quality is an immersion breaker for me, that's why I only use headphones even when watching Netflix on my TV I have a 5-10 meters aux extension

I have those Xperia S ones
And the Xperia Z2 ones to which are far superior
But I also have Sony's Hi Res Extra Bass, the PlayStation NC ones.
PlayStation Gold Headset
And a set of Sony Bluetooth Extra Bass earbuds
I'm very picky with my headphones
A lot of the ones I see people using lack warmth and real bass, tops have distortion
And my AV system is over 1000 Watts RMS
and supports Uncompressed Audio, Dolby True HD although I'm convinced it's weaker then my older system, you could feel that outside lol
That does need upgrading as with have newer audio formats now but I'm too fond of it.

 

[Metroiddarks]

The thing that worries me the most about PS5 is the anemic 448GB/s bandwidth
How is that going to be enough especially considering CPU takes a portion. Is it even possible for RDNA2 to be much more efficient?

Yes I agree even I saw in some first reviews of the 5700 xt where that gpu needs more bandwidth, the ram speed is more important than the SSD but looks like Sony thinks different.

 

[CJY]

Very good video from RGT:



(He inverted the SSD info on the table though)

Video was great. Thanks.

Also watched this one (on 2x speed of course):



I've watched plenty of his videos before, but wasn't subbed. It's probably the best analysis I've seen so far. Looking forward to more of his content.

The thing that is great about these smaller independent YouTubers is that (I think) they are not beholden to sponsors and really just speak their mind. They're also PC-guys, so are not even that emotionally invested in the "console war".

 

[-kb-]

The thing that worries me the most about PS5 is the anemic 448GB/s bandwidth
How is that going to be enough especially considering CPU takes a portion. Is it even possible for RDNA2 to be much more efficient?

I think the more interesting question is how will the slower CPU access to the GDDR6 bus on the XSX affect overall effective bandwidth for the GPU?. I dont think in practise till ever hit 560GB/s with any CPU interactions, and the more CPU interactions the lower the effective bandwidth goes.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

Very good video from RGT:



(He inverted the SSD info on the table though)

Anything about Velocity in XSX? Heard that SSD in XSX can do more than PS5's SSD

 

[vdopey]

Yes I agree even I saw in some first reviews of the 5700 xt where that gpu needs more bandwidth, the ram speed is more important than the SSD but looks like Sony thinks different.

Yeah I think this is possibly a compromise too far - that ssd is just so damn expensive, they should have gone with faster GDDR6 we will have to wait and see how it ends up performing.
I think the xsx split ram pool is also possibly a compromise too far, their ram situation is not perfect either.

 

[Insane Metal]

Anything about Velocity in XSX? Heard that SSD in XSX can do more than PS5's SSD

He is talking about their GPUs more specifically.

 

[01011001]

Im going to laugh when his game runs on cards <10TFLOPs and we realise its not coming to PS5 because he was given sacks of cash.

he says it's barely running at 30fps on ab RTX2080, and that card is more powerful than the PS5's gpu

 

[Metroiddarks]

Yeah I think this is possibly a compromise too far - that ssd is just so damn expensive, they should have gone with faster GDDR6 we will have to wait and see how it ends up performing.
I think the xsx split ram pool is also possibly a compromise too far, their ram situation is not perfect either.

Exactly just imagine your logic of your game is soo simple or eficient than you dont need those 3.5 GB for OS, if you want o use now you will have some issues for huge difference in bandwidh in those ram pools.

 

[B_Boss]

Bottom line is that the new xbox is more powerful than ps5 I dont get why people want to fabricate things it's ok they both will be better than what we got now

Sure that could be a bottom line but the conversation is far from over. We accept that the series X has a stronger GPU...now what? Let’s analyze and have a great time doing so. The conversation continues...

As someone who will still be on 1080p for the foreseeable future (TV is 1080p, no reason to upgrade unless it breaks), I'm expecting to get 1080p @ 60fps on all PS5 titles.

Something that has me excited is that the PS4 BC games will apparently benefit from performance boosts. Could finally see Bloodborne at a stable 60fps.

Also, being on a base PS4, I don't have access to things like God of Wars 60fps in pro mode. I imagine I'll get to enable that..?

Also, also: does anyone yet know how much RAM the PS5 is reserving for the OS? Maybe 2.5GB, like the Xbox Series X? Was there any mention of a dedicated 1-2GB as speculated, leaving the full 16GB for developers? Or is that now wishful thinking?

So awesome to read this . I’m the same way Bhuna. Not crazy about 2/4/8k lol. I mean it’s awesome technically but it in no way has ever enhanced my gaming experience. That’s just my subjective experience and opinion.