Dirk Benedict
Member
Especially mobile games with a simple click mechanic.
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I just uncovered why AAA games are declining: developers aren't as good as they used to be
- Thread starter GigaBowser
- Start date
- Opinion Poll Analysis
Especially mobile games with a simple click mechanic.
Frank Horrigan
Banned
Jobs, Gates, Sweeney, they all did the same.Carmack spent an estimated 10,000 HOURS learning how to write code.
Pics are from the early 90s, and would routinely work 60-80 hour weeks, foregoing friendship/relationships to practice what he loved.
People called them "geeks', "nerds", etc back during the time these pics were taken.
This was not considered a glamorous position (coding or game development).
Games developed by people who LOVED GAMES.
Bill gates was the worlds biggest nerd, even Simpsons took the piss out of him. Yet, people are redefining nerds as these super cool types who are socially acceptable, when that was never the reality.
Though i suppose the redefining of the term nerd shows how much gaming has changed and has itself been redefined. In a way it's very fitting
hey guys
did you know that game developers worked 60-80 hours per week in the 90s
this is totally something exclusive to that era and modern game developers totally dont have those kinds of work hours at all nor do they have any passion for what they make
because op posted some photos from the 90s of two guys on their computers
very convincing
btw daikatana sucked
did you know that game developers worked 60-80 hours per week in the 90s
this is totally something exclusive to that era and modern game developers totally dont have those kinds of work hours at all nor do they have any passion for what they make
because op posted some photos from the 90s of two guys on their computers
very convincing
btw daikatana sucked
D-ray
Member
Games were just games back then. There was no division between "AAA" and "Not AAA".
Just go play indies, comrade. Those are made by idiots full of poopoo and imagination in their pants.
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
Games are better than ever?
Flutta
Banned
I mean same shit is happning in the movie/tv-show business. The She-hulk, series is a good example of that. And that show i believe is mostly made of by a team of women
There’s some truth to what he’s saying. I mean diversity in a work space is a top priority over talent in most Fields nowadays
Puscifer
Member
Also at some point people like this need to realize that gaming back then the inmates were running the asylum. You could make so called "AAA" games for a couple million dollars and 20-40 people. Now you probably have the same amount of resources in a small element of the game.
Silent Hill 1 - 4 had around 40 people each game and would shrink to the core 15-18 after the heavy lifting was done.
If I feel like digging out the issue Game informer where EA said transitioning to HD meant that they couldn't be as flexible as they used too. They could greenlight 20 games and if only about 8 of them were successful it wouldn't matter if the other ones were cancelled or sold low. Meaning that Madden, FIFA, MLB, Tiger Woods, NCAA Football, and Basketball, and The Sims carried the companies success that allowed them to do stuff like Burnout, Strangers Wrath, those 007 games like Night fire and Everything or Nothing.
Also another big thing people don't realize is how much those casual games that used to be published like Singstar and Trivia went to mobile that helped fund a lot of the games we used to play. Cheap to make, publish and priced stupidly low isn't there anymore really funneled gaming into the space it is now. The amount of risk aversion that's just gone in the industry is astounding in how it's just evaporated. I'm not saying I won't miss stuff like Gravity Rush or Ape Escape, I really do, but now that I realize what it takes to make those style of games and what their failure means NOW and as opposed to 20 YEARS AGO is why I just brush it off.
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Drizzlehell
Banned
If getting rid of toxic frat boy culture also means no more tedious games like Red Dead Redemption 2 then bring it on.
Also, go fuck yourself, OP.
Also, go fuck yourself, OP.
Interfectum
Member
OP almost has it... it's not the individual, it's not the fact that a woman or a minority has taken on these roles. There are a ton of talented people at these studios and diversity allows for more idea into gaming.
The problem is politics and how it's seeping into games through some of these people. Can you imagine the morale at Insomniac during R&C Wild Rift development with that one lady going ape shit over Rivet? Can you imagine what other shit went on at the time? You destroy employee morale, you hurt the project. Another issue is a lot of these new bloods in development actively hate the fanbase they are creating games for. Hard for a good product to come out of contempt.
Same shit is happening everywhere in entertainment. Check out MCU Phase 3 vs Phase 4.
The problem is politics and how it's seeping into games through some of these people. Can you imagine the morale at Insomniac during R&C Wild Rift development with that one lady going ape shit over Rivet? Can you imagine what other shit went on at the time? You destroy employee morale, you hurt the project. Another issue is a lot of these new bloods in development actively hate the fanbase they are creating games for. Hard for a good product to come out of contempt.
Same shit is happening everywhere in entertainment. Check out MCU Phase 3 vs Phase 4.
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Roni
Member
Talent erosion has little, if anything, to do with female developers.
It has to do with quarterly driven profits, forcing game devs to work without documenting anything, paying obscene salaries for the actual hours they need to work, actively preventing unionization, risk averse investors, the peter principle, etc...
You force devs to work at break neck speed, without putting anything down in writing, then you force them to work overtime. Of course the top talent that doesn't need to be there (because they can work anywhere) will leave. Coincidentally, they're usually the senior staff, who know what the fuck they're doing.
The result is management people who are in management just to get a paycheck without doing anything productive, a low quality workforce who doesn't know any better than the reality they're in and millions of dollars being spent down the drain while the incompetent leadership flails about trying to make a passable game to keep their jobs and blame sales anywhere else but the real problem.
It has to do with quarterly driven profits, forcing game devs to work without documenting anything, paying obscene salaries for the actual hours they need to work, actively preventing unionization, risk averse investors, the peter principle, etc...
You force devs to work at break neck speed, without putting anything down in writing, then you force them to work overtime. Of course the top talent that doesn't need to be there (because they can work anywhere) will leave. Coincidentally, they're usually the senior staff, who know what the fuck they're doing.
The result is management people who are in management just to get a paycheck without doing anything productive, a low quality workforce who doesn't know any better than the reality they're in and millions of dollars being spent down the drain while the incompetent leadership flails about trying to make a passable game to keep their jobs and blame sales anywhere else but the real problem.
Windle Poons
Made a crappy phPBB forum once ... once.
Is this an account suicide thread?
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
The games they make speak for them.
Repetitive products designed by committee and without any kind of passion put into them.
Your post says otherwise.
Like the guy says, you’re taking umbrage at a picture of Rockstar celebrating their female developers. With zero evidence, you’re assuming they aren’t qualified for their jobs.
That’s just bloody embarrassing.
Miyazaki is younger than all these guys and he’s one of the best in game development today. Still active. His games are every bit as good as anything these folks have made. Eiji Aonuma succeeded Miyamoto as Nintendo’s chief creative genius and he’s directing some of their best ever output today. Neil Druckman is just 43 and leading Naughty Dog in their award winning games. Cory Barlog is 47 and was one of the chief contributors to God of War (2018) one of the best games ever made.
You really are out of touch.
cireza
Member
I think that it was a much more niche medium, this is why people who were attracted to it were deeply passionate. It was possible to release some of the most impressive games with a small, dedicated team of people. Many genres were in their infancy, and the rules and mechanics we are now used to for each genre, were still being put in place. Creativity had much more room in this context.
I like to think about Rieko Kodama and the awesome team at SEGA that worked on the Phantasy Star games. I think that this is a series that demonstrate really well this situation, with each game building some fantastic ideas, great creativity and design, eventually leading to Phantasy Star IV which is timeless in its mechanics and gameplay.
I like to think about Rieko Kodama and the awesome team at SEGA that worked on the Phantasy Star games. I think that this is a series that demonstrate really well this situation, with each game building some fantastic ideas, great creativity and design, eventually leading to Phantasy Star IV which is timeless in its mechanics and gameplay.
AV
We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
Then Carmack went on to release RAGE in the same year that Minecraft got its first full release, a game made by some guy in Java that is now literally the most popular video game ever made.
But I'm sure Minecraft is also shit because it's for kids, or something. Times change.
But I'm sure Minecraft is also shit because it's for kids, or something. Times change.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Well, modern AAA western games tend to be sucking more and more as years go by so I guess something must be wrong with the dev culture at those places.
IlGialloMondadori
Member
I'm half convinced some of the people in here are creations made by an AI asked to create a butthurt gamergate nerd culture fanboy forum lurker.
I can no longer tell what is real and what is fake.
I can no longer tell what is real and what is fake.
IlGialloMondadori
Member
No women allowed in the clubhouse, huh?
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PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
More like a timed ban thread..
Rickyiez
Member
Fully agreed.
JimmyRustler
Member
A whole lot of text for saying that devs are not the nerds that were making games with passion in their basement anymore but "mostly regular people" who are just doing their job.
It is what it is. PS2 days were simply the peak as there was this good balance between costs and creatvity and it's not coming back. It's the same for movies bascially, which arguably peaked in the 80s and 90s. Today everything so so god damn commercialzed and made in a way to squeeze every cent possible from the property.
Luckily every now and then some passion project manages to slip through the cracks. We just have to live with it. "We" as the ones who are not happy with the current situation that is.
It is what it is. PS2 days were simply the peak as there was this good balance between costs and creatvity and it's not coming back. It's the same for movies bascially, which arguably peaked in the 80s and 90s. Today everything so so god damn commercialzed and made in a way to squeeze every cent possible from the property.
Luckily every now and then some passion project manages to slip through the cracks. We just have to live with it. "We" as the ones who are not happy with the current situation that is.
DryvBy
Member
Games aren't sold for only $60. They're sold at $60+ all the MTX they can legally offer.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
Read this book, Carmack is 110% a legit nerd.
My point wasn't that he wasn't a nerd, it was that this idea they must be some outcast is incorrect.
Frank Horrigan
"a hobby which is no longer seen by society as socially unpopular, means he was never a social outcast?"was? lol foh, now suddenly they don't need to be social outcast, merely in the past, prior and or "was" lol Ok bud, it sounds silly and some gatekeeping shit as if someone needs to fucking show you some Atari game or Pet Rock or DnD booklet to make a fucking game now.
How the fuck do you know none of those people in those pictures fit any of that though?
"How old are you in a span of a decade? for example 20-30 or 10-20"
Yea...so gatekeeping? This shit is about generalizations, assumptions and gatekeeping as if a fucking picture has now told you the life of someone, its why you are now jumping to the classic gatekeep defense to avoid any real factual discussion. So this whole identity politics shit where now someone needs to wear a retro Dungeons and Dragons shirt to make a video game sounds fake and forced.
edit. deep lolz, Identity Politics The Thread lol
Off topic and added to ignore.
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The artful mincer
Member
He personally doesn't like them as much so apparently a sample size of one is enough evidence to declare AAA games are on the decline.
Oh and he read a comment "somwhere" that all the talent has moved on while simultaneously complaining that current directors have been too long in the industry.
And to top it off a bunch of moaning about woke culture while cherry picking a couple of shit games to prove a point because obviously shit games never existed in the past.
Clearly flawless logic and research on his part!
Rickyiez
Member
Fully Agreed
The only reason of the so called "decline" of AAA games is corporate greed , not the creatives . The good developers that still wanted to make good games went to AA and indie space . This is proven from the quality games by smaller devs like Hades , Returnal , Dead Cells , Pathfinder Wrath of Righteous , Pillar of Eternity 2 , Divinity O/S 2 , Cuphead , Ori , Soma , Xcom , A plague Tale , Gears Tactic , Shadow Warriors , Cross Code and so on and so on .
And yeah , go fuck yourself OP x2
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TheBROgamer
Banned
This is exactly why companies like Activision, EA, and Ubisoft just double down on very few franchises.
When years prior, they were experimenting in a variety of genres.
Frank Horrigan
Banned
Then your point is wrong.
nerd were outcasts back in the days that OP is referring to. Nerds are no longer outcasts. Just look at Big Bang Theory. a tv show about nerds and geeks that was more popular than friends.
TheBROgamer
Banned
Games from a time you likely weren't born, came as a complete package.
For example, Halo 3 with a split screen campaign, multiplayer, forge, etc.
Halo Infinite in 2022, no split screen campaign or multiplayer, forge, etc and it COST more and has microtransactions.
Those microtransactions and such that you spend all your money on, used to be free unlockables within the game itself too.
Less features for more money = modern gaming.
Crazy...
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64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
Gaf: wdym, games are still bring made by gamers, for gamers!
Also gaf: OMG, this new game is so woke and doesn't appeal to any of us at all. It's clear the woke mob made this to fuel the culture war/appeal to those God damned zoomers!
Make up ur damn minds....
Also gaf: OMG, this new game is so woke and doesn't appeal to any of us at all. It's clear the woke mob made this to fuel the culture war/appeal to those God damned zoomers!
Make up ur damn minds....
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Bonfires Down
Member
Is this GigaBowser’s alt account?
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
Gigabowser just has hot takes on game franchises, this guy sort of says what's on his mind
TheBROgamer
Banned
This is correct, gaming was not a socially respected industry back in the 80s/90s/early 2000s.
It attracted a certain type of person.
Frank Horrigan
Banned
EDMIX
Good, add me to ignore. I don't need people as emotionally stunted and immature as you clogging up my alerts list. You argue against your own point in every post while trying to get some kind of gatcha, rather than discussing in good faith.
If you or others can't differentiate between the gaming industry of 10, 20 and 30 years ago compared to today, then i question how much you know about the gaming industry
phil_t98
#SonyToo
I mean same shit is happning in the movie/tv-show business. The She-hulk, series is a good example of that. And that show i believe is mostly made of by a team of women
There’s some truth to what he’s saying. I mean diversity in a work space is a top priority over talent in most Fields nowadays
she hulk is ok but its aimed at women mostly. its ok to aim things at women to
Frank Horrigan
Banned
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
There’s been like 30 “old man yells at clouds” thread this weekend. No games developers aren’t worse. People just prefer things that came about in their formative years. We literally got Elden ring a game that had as good of a case as any for GOAT. Ragnarok is also this year which at least will be one of the highest quality games we’ve seen. Enjoy that we have a great hobby with superb out put. Or play the old games you love so much.
TheBROgamer
Banned
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
Good, add me to ignore. I don't need people as emotionally stunted and immature as you clogging up my alerts list. You argue against your own point in every post while trying to get some kind of gatcha, rather than discussing in good faith.
If you or others can't differentiate between the gaming industry of 10, 20 and 30 years ago compared to today, then i question how much you know about the gaming industry
thats nice bud, continue the identity politics, you'll find those nerds needed to make games lol
lol None of that will fucking tell you what all those people are or aren't in that picture bud. The industry has changed sure, that doesn't mean you 100% know who the fuck is or isn't a "nerd" as if you are mind reader or something.
Nice try though...
No evidence that we have no one in the industry today that isn't passionate to create or something. Unless any of you have some device to measure this, its merely a generalization as if you know all the people fucking making games today or something.
So you are trying to force an idea about millions of people you don't know....then proceeding to act as if your view on them is FACT and that suddenly no one is passionate to create games, oh but they all where back them bro lol
Some can create with passion back then no different then today, someone can grift and take advantage of the industry back then just like they can today etc. All that can exist back then and currently, but stop forcing this idea that 1 picture MUST mean this and another MUST mean that or something, you don't know those people to then argue this.
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Griffon
Member
You're almost there OP, but there's a bit more to it:
Back in the 80s and 90s, there wasn't any video game schools nor curriculum. People who wanted to be in games had to make their own way with their own raw talent and passion. There was no school to tell you what to do, you had to think for yourself. As such it attracted a very particular type of person.
It all changed when schools started to make a lot of money selling game dev classes, preying on the dreams of young morons without talent.
The now vast majority of people who are now into games are those people. They are factory-made, with a premade set of preconception and preprogrammed to be cogs in the AAA machine. The job market is flooded and employees are treated like disposable resources, to be used and thrown away.
There is no natural "homegrown" talent anymore, and the people who would have the predisposition are rather going elsewhere.
Back in the 80s and 90s, there wasn't any video game schools nor curriculum. People who wanted to be in games had to make their own way with their own raw talent and passion. There was no school to tell you what to do, you had to think for yourself. As such it attracted a very particular type of person.
It all changed when schools started to make a lot of money selling game dev classes, preying on the dreams of young morons without talent.
The now vast majority of people who are now into games are those people. They are factory-made, with a premade set of preconception and preprogrammed to be cogs in the AAA machine. The job market is flooded and employees are treated like disposable resources, to be used and thrown away.
There is no natural "homegrown" talent anymore, and the people who would have the predisposition are rather going elsewhere.
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Frank Horrigan
Banned
No one is saying that.
Women have been in the industry for decades. It's as retarded as saying that men didn't want female characters in their games before 2010.