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[Nvzman]

Men_in_Boxes tried to tell me that TF2's character design is horrible.

Thats actually insane, TF2 has pretty much some of the best character design in any multiplayer game because they also intentionally play a very heavy factor into the gameplay design too. Nowadays people would find "this character is big because he has big weapons" or "oh this character is small because he's fast" cliche and derivative, but what they don't realize is that TF2 was basically THE game that successfully executed that trope for class-based shooters. It does it so insanely well that I highly recommend listening to dev commentary about how the classes are thought out, its incredible how much attention they gave it.

Anyone criticizing TF2's character design straight up has no clue what they are talking about with video game design, period. Valve has always been a masterclass when it comes to game design.

 

[ChoosableOne]

This is bs. I think Concord looks pretty good, and the gunplay seems solid. The main issues are the ridiculousness of the characters, getting lost in the oversaturated hero shooter market, lacking originality, and not being free-to-play. If it were free, I would have liked to try it.

 

[Elginer]

Resistance 3 and Killzone 2 were amazing and now we’re left with shit. Sony investing in trash gaas.

 

[Ultros]

I loved Killzone 2 so much. Spent dozens of hours on that multiplayer at least.

That little beep you heard when you killed someone in MP for some reason was very satisfying

 

[Sushi_Combo]

In what way has Killzone 2 not been topped?

I had the most fun in its MP component, I really enjoyed the dynamic changes in gameplay objectives occurring in the same match + each class felt useful (A good tactician would tip the scales of battle). I feel that other mp games haven't tried or maybe did but failed at it.

 

[Last Hearth]

It's almost as if the game dev industry doesn't give a shit anymore, because most of the talent left and what we are left with is a bunch of talentless hacks.

I think it's the difference between people working in the game industry because they loved playing games, and learned how to make game by doing it, versus people who got degrees in programing because they heard it paid well, and then happened to be hired by a gaming company, so to them it's a just a job.

 

[Ultros]

I think it's the difference between people working in the game industry because they loved playing games, and learned how to make game by doing it, versus people who got degrees in programing because they heard it paid well, and then happened to be hired by a gaming company, so to them it's a just a job.

Most definitely! If you look at photos and videos of dev teams in the 90s and early 2000s. They were a lot smaller, but they were mostly having fun and loved what they were creating. I'm 100% sure that 20 years from now people won't look back as fondly games from the last few years, as we look back fondly at the games from the 90s and early 2000s

 

[DonF]

I know that the goal of this video is say that concord is lame, which is true, but it actually made me say that killzone 2 is great, and I wish I could play it again.

 

[Crystal Winters]

.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Kill zone 2 is a stout shooter and still one of the best shooters.

 

[Neilg]

I think this video really highlights how the culture of game development is different between the two. And that's not universal, but I see it as the difference between a team where people turn up absolutely fucking stoked that they get to make games for a living, who don't have to be asked to work late to finish features because it's very personal to them, and 'their' feature that looks/feels cool is their little stamp on the game.
Concord was absolutely made by a bunch of 9-5ers that would turn up in the morning, check ftrack for their tasks to do for the day, then they'd chip away until it was time to go home. You can feel the lack of energy and passion in the studio.
How many people do you think independently took a stand and said 'I know I don't have to, but I'm going to go above and beyond to improve this asset/detail because I don't feel it's good enough'? I'm not even talking about working late - just working harder, to create more time and space to find things to upgrade. All the little features and details in the FPS's were not defined as tasks on a whiteboard, it was a bunch of people who really love FPS's thinking about ways to improve it and pitching quick ideas to their bosses.

 

[CuckooBananaNuts]

I think this video really highlights how the culture of game development is different between the two. And that's not universal, but I see it as the difference between a team where people turn up absolutely fucking stoked that they get to make games for a living, who don't have to be asked to work late to finish features because it's very personal to them, and 'their' feature that looks/feels cool is their little stamp on the game.
Concord was absolutely made by a bunch of 9-5ers that would turn up in the morning, check ftrack for their tasks to do for the day, then they'd chip away until it was time to go home. You can feel the lack of energy and passion in the studio.
How many people do you think independently took a stand and said 'I know I don't have to, but I'm going to go above and beyond to improve this asset/detail because I don't feel it's good enough'? I'm not even talking about working late - just working harder, to create more time and space to find things to upgrade. All the little features and details in the FPS's were not defined as tasks on a whiteboard, it was a bunch of people who really love FPS's thinking about ways to improve it and pitching quick ideas to their bosses.

I just can't comprehend that after 8 years of development ... this was the result.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Another thing to highlight is how awesome the map designs are in Killzone 2

Open areas with lots of unique features for choke points. You really memorize the maps easily since everything looks so distinct and hand crafted and absolutely dripping with thick atmosphere

Salamun Market
Blood Gracht
Radec Academy

Gyatt daym

The maps in concord straight up ass in comparison. Boxy, generic, confined

 

[INC]

if only sony would release kz2 remaster, 4k, 60fps, no input lag

or better

a VR version

 

[ConkerTheSquirrel.]

Killzone 2 budget: $20 million

Concord budget: +$100 million



Knowing that, and seeing the finished product for both, makes me think what kind of fat I should trim out if I was Firewalk Studios/Sony. Watching the video, I can think of one.

 

[fart town usa]

I'd gladly go back to the days when gaming wasn't as mainstream. Even though the PS2/OG Xbox was very popular, gaming wasn't "mainstream" back then in the sense it is now. I'd rather be back in those days. And when devs actually gave a shit and made awesome fun game. Fuck now I feel like replaying God Hand for the 10000th time

Yea, I rely on AA, Indie, and retro consoles. I'm never at a loss of games to play but it is a damn shame that AAA game quality has really deteriorated, it truly is a joke the vast majoroty of the time. It's really suŕreal to watch these expensive disasters play out but it makes complete sense when you look at how creatively bankrupt the entertainment industry is. They have truly lost the plot.

 

[LordOfChaos]

It's time to bring Killzone back as a gritty realistic PS5 shooter. We'll all agree to forget Shadowfall existed.

 

[Embearded]

The video isn't about KZ, but Concord, a 1st party game, that missing features that existed in a first party shooter 15 years ago.

I don't know if Concord really cost them 100m, but i surely cannot see this amount of money when i see gameplay.
A shooter should have interaction between the game world and ammunition firing everywhere.

 

[Snake29]

This thread could have been “All shooters from recent years vs Killzone 2”. I can’t see what this has to do with Concord?

 

[Rudius]

What he says at 10:42, my god! That's why old games were so much better and always breaking new ground.

 

[Last Hearth]

This thread could have been “All shooters from recent years vs Killzone 2”. I can’t see what this has to do with Concord?

Isn't that even worse though? If it were just Concord we can write it off as an outlier, but if it's all shooters wouldn't it be an indictment on the entire industry, and validate though who say gaming has been in decline?

 

[Omnipunctual Godot]

I thought it cost $200M.

 

[aerts1js]

Resistance 3 and Killzone 2 were amazing and now we’re left with shit. Sony investing in trash gaas.

I was gonna throw a mention to Resistance 3 as well… that game is in dire need of a remaster.

 

[aerts1js]

All of a sudden, I have this regret that I never played Killzone games. FPS games are not normally my thing, but these older games and also games made by eastern game devs are so much better than anything post 2014, with only a few exceptions here and there.

The graphics for killzone 2 and 3 still hold up. Like they look better than a lot of stuff that’s released today

 

[Sooner]

You can do this with almost any game. Diminishing returns in gaming started long ago.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Cut the Con cord.

 

[Radical_3d]

I’m probably the bigger hater of KZ2 out there (because I’m a massive KZ1 fan), but man. This video makes me want Sony to hire Ryan again so they can fire him along Hulst, and then tar and feather them alongside Spencer. Out with the clowns in this industry and bring back good management!

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I’m probably the bigger hater of KZ2 out there (because I’m a massive KZ1 fan), but man. This video makes me want Sony to hire Ryan again so they can fire him along Hulst, and then tar and feather them alongside Spencer. Out with the clowns in this industry and bring back good management!

Killzone Shadow Fall sales vs Horizon Forbidden West sales.

The change of direction seemed to work out pretty well for Guerilla.

 

[Ultros]

Yea, I rely on AA, Indie, and retro consoles. I'm never at a loss of games to play but it is a damn shame that AAA game quality has really deteriorated, it truly is a joke the vast majoroty of the time. It's really suŕreal to watch these expensive disasters play out but it makes complete sense when you look at how creatively bankrupt the entertainment industry is. They have truly lost the plot.

I'm also playing a lot of AA, indie and my old consoles. I still have sealed PS3/360 games. And I have an itch to replay God Hand again. I don't scoff at my old consoles or games because fun is fun regardless of how long ago a game came out.

 

[fart town usa]

I'm also playing a lot of AA, indie and my old consoles. I still have sealed PS3/360 games. And I have an itch to replay God Hand again. I don't scoff at my old consoles or games because fun is fun regardless of how long ago a game came out.

Absolutely. Classics are classics for a reason and most games play great if you never stopped playing retro titles. It's like subsequent gens never happened.

 

[Syphon Filter]

dam killzone 2 is 15, time flies.

 

[Radical_3d]

Killzone Shadow Fall sales vs Horizon Forbidden West sales.

The change of direction seemed to work out pretty well for Guerilla.

Ryan and Hulst are responsible for spending hundreds of millions, when not billions, in acquisitions to boost their GaaS ambitions. Closed Japan Studio. Cancelled half or more of the live services projects anyways. Only HD2 comes out as something mildly interesting, gameplay wise. Let their target audience starving with no variety outside the movie-like hits once every 4 centuries or crappy live services. What the fuck do I care if Guerrilla sells a lot of games nowadays.
I said what I said. I want them tar and feathered. And Spencer too.

 

[Ultros]

Absolutely. Classics are classics for a reason and most games play great if you never stopped playing retro titles. It's like subsequent gens never happened.

Exactly! That's why so many people still play Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, Deus Ex, Half Life, Mario games, Ninja Gaiden, etc, etc(too many to name). Because regardless of age. They are still a blast to play and as good today as when they were released years ago

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Ryan and Hulst are responsible for spending hundreds of millions, when not billions, in acquisitions to boost their GaaS ambitions. Closed Japan Studio. Cancelled half or more of the live services projects anyways. Only HD2 comes out as something mildly interesting, gameplay wise. Let their target audience starving with no variety outside the movie-like hits once every 4 centuries or crappy live services. What the fuck do I care if Guerrilla sells a lot of games nowadays.
I said what I said. I want them tar and feathered. And Spencer too.

Yeah, personal preference is one thing.

Good business strategy is another.

"Good management" seems to imply the later.

 

[Radical_3d]

dam killzone 2 is 15, time flies.

The hype building around Halo 3 and Killzone 2 were the best GAF times. Prove me wrong.

 

[JayK47]

The water effects in Concord are non-existent. Could use a remaster of Killzone 2 it seems.

Sad to see such a loss of details over 2 generations. Is it laziness, cheapness, or loss of ability? I do miss shooters that used to pay attention to details like bullet effects, destructive environments, etc.

 

[cash_longfellow]

Sad why? Let them now every day where they failed so they don't do it again

Know…only reason I’m focusing on grammar is because I'm convinced there are multiple posters in this thread who are the same person with alts…

 

[cash_longfellow]

Let me get this out of the way, the story is average and Sevchenko/Team is not the memorable. However the game is still leaps and bounds in:

- Atmosphere / Immersion
- Gunplay (could care less about COD lovers)
- Warzone Multiplayer
- Violence / Gore / Grit
- Classes in Multiplayer
- Physics Engine for Bodies / Explosions
- Heaviness Of Movement
- Helghast (Iconic)
- Sound Design for Guns / Chirp
- Amazing World Building
- Amazing Back Story (if you ever read it)
- Scolar Visari / Brian Cox

What do you think is better? Amuse me.



Haters gonna hate. That E3 trailer wasn't even as good as the actual game. KZ2 critics are people who are happy with Concord like shit. Go back to playing trash.

“Could care less”??? Point mute

 

[cash_longfellow]

Sad why? Let them now every day where they failed so they don't do it again

 

[Jinzo Prime]

I thought it cost $200M

He was just being nice.

 

[nial]

Let their target audience starving with no variety outside the movie-like hits once every 4 centuries or crappy live services.

Meanwhile this was up just today.

Astrobot Launch Trailer

So good!!! Can't wait to pick this up next week!

www.neogaf.com

 

[Fahdis]

“Could care less”??? Point mute

Grammar Nazis get the shaft. Someone already corrected me. I just left it up on purpose to annoy you thumb twiddlers.

 

[CuckooBananaNuts]

“Could care less”??? Point mute

moot*

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

To be fair, Concord looks great technically even if I hate the art style and the butt ugly characters and hero shooter genre.


KZ2 was a technical marvel and to this day still looks incredible in many ways. I don't even think it has been topped when it comes to creating an atmosphere by any shooter since it came out.


Funny enough Hermen Hulst was head of Guerilla when KZ2 came out. We probably wouldn't have got KZ2 without him

 

[CamHostage]

I’m probably the bigger hater of KZ2 out there (because I’m a massive KZ1 fan)...

A massive KZ1 fan? I didn't know such a thing exists... And liking the KZ franchise but minus KZ2, that's shocking to me too.

(I only really care for KZ3 and the two portables though, so takes all kinds.)

 

[CamHostage]

Killzone 2 budget: $20 million

Concord budget: +$100 million

The KZ2 "budget" was $20mil, but it blew past that to $45-50mil production cost, which is $70-75mil after 15 years inflation.

(KZ3 is less publicly documented than KZ2, but it could well have been more. and KZ:SF even more than those, albeit a fair portion more of the added cost would be from outsourced assets.)

I have questions about what went into Concord, but as far as premium title production, the development cost comparison between these two is not so wacky.

 

[Senua]

Let me get this out of the way, the story is average and Sevchenko/Team is not the memorable. However the game is still leaps and bounds in:

- Atmosphere / Immersion
- Gunplay (could care less about COD lovers)
- Warzone Multiplayer
- Violence / Gore / Grit
- Picking different tactical strategy with perks for your Soldier in Multiplayer
- Heaviness Of Movement
- Helghast (Iconic)
- Amazing World Building
- Amazing Back Story (if you ever read it)
- Scolar Visari / Brian Cox

What do you think is better? Amuse me.



Haters gonna hate. That E3 trailer wasn't even as good as the actual game. KZ2 critics are people who are happy with Concord like shit. Go back to playing trash.

Atmosphere was great, but didn't hold a candle to Stalker, the gunplay was probably good below the surface but ruined by abysmal input latency. Story was lame like you said but there but there were memory moments. I never played the MP sadly. I don't think It's a bad game in the slightest but definitely don't see how it hasn't been topped by countless FPS games, it's unique for sure though. I definitely need to try it on RSPC3 though from the footage it looks crystal clear, is the input latency any better?

Haters gonna hate. That E3 trailer wasn't even as good as the actual game. KZ2 critics are people who are happy with Concord like shit. Go back to playing trash.

You lost me with this though, the CGI trailer was light years ahead, and no one here hates Killzone they just don't see it as God's gift like you do, it's better not to be upset about other people's opinions

 

[CamHostage]

To be fair, over the past fifteen years, most action games have ditched complex simulation and AI in favour of visuals and animation. The industry has enjoyed immense growth during that time, so while I do mourn it somewhat, I think the industry probably had the right instinct. These kinds of details make for interesting side-by-sides, but in the moment-to-moment gameplay, they don't matter enough to dedicate serious time, budget and CPU cycles to creating.

It's also a modern design aesthetic to go very clean and undistracted and rigidly unrandomized. Stray movement and unexpected falling chaos distracts from the very specific action (which is already incredibly busy with poppy color and flashing deploys and transparent goops going on) that the player should be focused on. Speed, clarity, and situational awareness.

I personally think they went too far or did too little in the Concord design. However, they're trying to make an "eSport" with these products, and sports try to avoid totally random, confusing shit.

 

[CamHostage]

Everything KZ2 does should be possible in 2024 as a baseline.
But capable software developers have had to change industries as all that is left are talentless hacks who couldn’t write their own engine if their lives depended on it.
UE5 node combining editor users who copy broken code from Git Hub, the lot of them.

Everything KZ2 does is possible at a baseline, it's just not what this game does.

You're angry at the modern node-weaving developers not knowing how to code their own engines (as if there weren't offices full of developers for the vast majority of games produced in the PS3/2/1 eras who had to turn to Renderware or an equivalent because they too couldn't or shouldn't code an engine,) but they don't have to when all of this stuff is available on a marketplace if they so choose to use them. The decals and the water and the surface chunking everybody here is cooing over, that's all a plug-in or so away from being tossed into their UE toolbox. It's not a matter of l33t coding skill to click the checkbox for "Enable Chaos Caching".

I'm with you that I don't really understand such sterile and unrealistic choices for a shooter, it seems like explosions and smashing stuff is fun stuff that videogames should never get enough of. But it's not like this surface-level tech stuff in Killzone can't be done today without brainiacs in a coder's basement writing brilliant code for it. Today, you just connect up the node for it*.

(*OK, there's more to it than just plug-and-play when it comes to making a shippable commercial product, but my point is, the concepts are already worked out. A coder needs to know how customize a Houdini effect and optimize a Chaos implementation, not necessarily how to build these tools themselves.)

BTW, Firewalk Studios Lead Graphics Engineer Andy Smith literally wrote his own custom engine in a staff of four engineers at Thekla to create The Witness. So, these capable software developers are still out there...

 

[GymWolf]

That little beep you heard when you killed someone in MP for some reason was very satisfying

It was more of a chirp, the headshot one was even better.