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[IbizaPocholo]

PlayStation 3 was the first mainstream console with a digital AV output... or was it? Nintendo's GameCube featured digital output functionality that was never fully utilised - until the release of HDMI adapters based on the GCVideo project. In this DF Retro special, John talks with MyLifeInGaming's Marc Duddleson about the various solutions available, showcasing the Eon GCHD Mk2.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

The GameCube gave me many good memories.

And it has the best version of any Metal Gear game... Twin Snakes.

 

[Fox Mulder]

These are neat. I had a 29 inch Sony PVM, but got rid of it due to space. I imagine most people would be happy with retro stuff just looking good on modern TV's.

It's still very niche and costs a lot.

 

[stranno]

And it has the best version of any Metal Gear game... Twin Snakes.

The weirdest for sure.

 

[MadFuzzy]

It’s no real mystery that GameCube supported digital out because at the time early Japanese HDTVs had D-Terminal connectors: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Terminal

Sony did D-Terminal cables for PS2 and PS3 as well. We never saw them in the west as it was a Japanese-only standard.

 

[SidViscous]

Knowing some folks are happy to spend £150 on a HDMI adapter for the gamecube, makes me feel less guilty about my own retro spending habits.

Thanks Digital Foundry

 

[Elfstar]

The GameCube gave me many good memories.

And it has the best version of any Metal Gear game... Twin Snakes.

Terrible bait

 

[SonGoku]

Terrible bait

Theres always that guy, Its like they get pleasure from pimping that atrocity, they know dem jimmies will be rustled

 

[Musky_Cheese]

Terrible bait

Definitely not bait.

I love that game. Made the Goat... better

 

[dark10x]

It’s no real mystery that GameCube supported digital out because at the time early Japanese HDTVs had D-Terminal connectors: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Terminal

Sony did D-Terminal cables for PS2 and PS3 as well. We never saw them in the west as it was a Japanese-only standard.

Well, yes, it's on the Framemeister as well. As far as I'm aware, it's still very much an analog standard rather than digital.

 

[Stuart360]

Well, yes, it's on the Framemeister as well. As far as I'm aware, it's still very much an analog standard rather than digital.

Slightly off topic, but i think you should do a DF Retro on Street Fighter 2 and its varying ports. That would be a big hit.

 

[Grinchy]

I had a 29 inch Sony PVM, but got rid of it due to space

Wow, how much does a 29'' PVM weigh? That thing must have been massive.

 

[SonGoku]

Wow, how much does a 29'' PVM weigh? That thing must have been massive.

I have a 29" Sony Triniton, its insanely heavy you could seriously injure yourself if you are not careful lifting it

 

[Fox Mulder]

Wow, how much does a 29'' PVM weigh? That thing must have been massive.

It was like 115 pounds. It's a big cube with handles meant to be team lifted I'm sure.

It was amazing, but I needed room in my apartment and cut down my physical collecting. I found it at a flea market for $20.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

I have a 29" Sony Triniton, its insanely heavy you could seriously injure yourself if you are not careful lifting it

My 36" Wega takes 3 people and 2 hernias to move. Also, my GameCube is connected by component to it. Life is good, unless you need to move the t lol.

OP: I watched the video earlier today and enjoyed it. Though for the price I think I'll keep my component cables and if those ever break or the GC breaks I'll use my first black Wii. W/ GC ports and component.

 

[El_Belmondo]

I have not seen the video yet, but I've been reading the era thread and i can't say I really approve D dark10x dismissing Wii w/component cable and Wii U HDMI vía homebrew for being slightly inferior solutions.

In fact i find somewhat uninformed his comments about launching gc discs via wii being cumbersome, and slightly hypocritical to classify using swiss on a pal GC for getting 480p something minimal while bashing the Wii for needing a wiimote (you don't even need a sensor bar anyway, you're set with a classic controller for moving the cursor. Please do your homework properly)

Truth to be told, i have a load of things to say, but i respect you and want to think that some of those comments were honest mistakes, because as a pal user who have been playing gamecube games vía Wii U, Wii and Gamecube i can't help but to find your comments kinda disingenuous.

 

[Virex]

Another solid DF video. Glad the gamecube is getting some love. Was really a great console

 

[dark10x]

I have not seen the video yet, but I've been reading the era thread and i can't say I really approve D dark10x dismissing Wii w/component cable and Wii U HDMI vía homebrew for being slightly inferior solutions.

In fact i find somewhat uninformed his comments about launching gc discs via wii being cumbersome, and slightly hypocritical to classify using swiss on a pal GC for getting 480p something minimal while bashing the Wii for needing a wiimote (you don't even need a sensor bar anyway, you're set with a classic controller for moving the cursor. Please do your homework properly)

Truth to be told, i have a load of things to say, but i respect you and want to think that some of those comments were honest mistakes, because as a pal user who have been playing gamecube games vía Wii U, Wii and Gamecube i can't help but to find your comments kinda disingenuous.

Let me explain then.

With WIi U it really comes down to two things for me - the HDMI output quality isn't quite on par with the solutions I was discussing (slightly softer and darker) and, more importantly, it requires using ISOs. I can understand that's not an issue for some but that's a HUGE turn-off for me personally. The double menu element is also annoying (though you can boot straight from the quick launch on the pad - but it still has to load for a while). If you don't mind it, though, it's a solid solution for HDMI GameCube gaming on the cheap.

Now the Wii comments - do your homework, really? Come on now, you really think I wouldn't know about that? The issue is that the CC still requires you to connect it to a Wii-mote with its own batteries. It's similarly annoying to having a sensor bar up.

...but I can agree that brushing off the Swiss aspect is hypocritical and, for that, I can apologize. I have mine configured to auto-boot at startup so it's minimal fuss but the configuration isn't that simple and it requires extra hardware. Really, though, the majority of my collection is NTSC-U so I haven't had to face the PAL problem TOO often. If your entire collection is PAL then it's definitely similarly annoying to using a Wii.

The main issue for me with Wii is that, for 480p, I find the component video output to be much noisier and lower quality overall. It looks bad on my OSSC compared to the GC component cables or the GC Video adapters. For 480i then, on my PVM, I run into a region annoyance in that the NTSC Wii doesn't support RGB SCART which is how my PVM setup is wired. Running component to it requires me to pull out my setup, disconnect the BNC plugs, connect some BNC to RCA adapters then plug the Wii in. It's kind of a hassle so the Wii is basically not part of my setup as a result. So, for me, it's just not a good fit at all but that doesn't mean it can't work for others.

So what I've said isn't a mistake at all but I was, perhaps, a little too harsh. So apologies for that.

The main thing I'm liking about this EON adapter and why it's such a good fit is that it can do analog and HDMI output at the same time. This allows for easier capture while playing. I can send the HDMI directly to my capture gear while the analog goes to my OSSC for line 2x 960p mode. It's working very well indeed.

 

[dirthead]

Technically Dolphin is the best quality possible for the Gamecube....

 

[dark10x]

Technically Dolphin is the best quality possible for the Gamecube....

Nope.

Dolphin is VERY good but it offers a different kind of experience with its own limitations (and glitches). Not everyone prefers it.

There are many ways to enjoy the system. You prefer Dolphin, good for you.

 

[dirthead]

Nope.

Yup. Metroid Prime on real hardware looks like fucking crap compared to my setup.

 

[dark10x]

Yup. Metroid Prime on real hardware looks like fucking crap compared to my setup.

Ohhh, your amazing setup. What is your setup then?

 

[dirthead]

Ohhh, your amazing setup. Yeah, whatever pal.

Yeah, it is pretty amazing, actually.

 

[dark10x]

Yeah, it is pretty amazing, actually.

What is it? I bet I can beat it.

 

[Inviusx]

DF Retro has got to be among the best gaming content on Youtube.

 

[dirthead]

What is it? I bet I can beat it.

No, you really can't. Having said that, there is no winning or losing, because there's no perfect setup. Everything's a tradeoff. Monitor technology is too primitive to be able to say any single existent setup is ideal.

 

[dark10x]

No, you really can't. Having said that, there is no winning or losing, because there's no perfect setup. Everything's a tradeoff. Monitor technology is too primitive to be able to say any single existent setup is ideal.

So what is it then? Please, share with me. I accept your challenge.

I want all the details. PC specs. Monitor/TV specs. Sound system. Everything. What are you running?

You're right, though, everything is a trade-off. I still want to know your specs to understand better.

 

[MadFuzzy]

Well, yes, it's on the Framemeister as well. As far as I'm aware, it's still very much an analog standard rather than digital.

Sure. I think that at the time no-one was quite sure where things were going with global HD standards, and since the HDMI spec was still work-in-progress when GameCube hardware was being specced out I guess Nintendo must have decided to give themselves a bit of breathing space with their digital video output whilst things shook out.

If the GameCube had sold a bit better and had another few years of life so that it overlapped more with the popularisation of HDTVs, maybe Nintendo might have done their own HDMI cable for it (especially as people at the time were already tapping the pins on the digital cables to get VGA out of it).

 

[dirthead]

So what is it then? Please, share with me. I accept your challenge.

I want all the details. PC specs. Monitor/TV specs. Sound system. Everything. What are you running?

I'm not here to compare e-weiners, dude, but don't pretend that Dolphin doesn't render Gamecube games way better than real hardware.

 

[El_Belmondo]

Let me explain then.

With WIi U it really comes down to two things for me - the HDMI output quality isn't quite on par with the solutions I was discussing (slightly softer and darker) and, more importantly, it requires using ISOs. I can understand that's not an issue for some but that's a HUGE turn-off for me personally. The double menu element is also annoying (though you can boot straight from the quick launch on the pad - but it still has to load for a while). If you don't mind it, though, it's a solid solution for HDMI GameCube gaming on the cheap.

Now the Wii comments - do your homework, really? Come on now, you really think I wouldn't know about that? The issue is that the CC still requires you to connect it to a Wii-mote with its own batteries. It's similarly annoying to having a sensor bar up.

...but I can agree that brushing off the Swiss aspect is hypocritical and, for that, I can apologize. I have mine configured to auto-boot at startup so it's minimal fuss but the configuration isn't that simple and it requires extra hardware. Really, though, the majority of my collection is NTSC-U so I haven't had to face the PAL problem TOO often. If your entire collection is PAL then it's definitely similarly annoying to using a Wii.

The main issue for me with Wii is that, for 480p, I find the component video output to be much noisier and lower quality overall. It looks bad on my OSSC compared to the GC component cables or the GC Video adapters. For 480i then, on my PVM, I run into a region annoyance in that the NTSC Wii doesn't support RGB SCART which is how my PVM setup is wired. Running component to it requires me to pull out my setup, disconnect the BNC plugs, connect some BNC to RCA adapters then plug the Wii in. It's kind of a hassle so the Wii is basically not part of my setup as a result. So, for me, it's just not a good fit at all but that doesn't mean it can't work for others.

So what I've said isn't a mistake at all but I was, perhaps, a little too harsh. So apologies for that.

The main thing I'm liking about this EON adapter and why it's such a good fit is that it can do analog and HDMI output at the same time. This allows for easier capture while playing. I can send the HDMI directly to my capture gear while the analog goes to my OSSC for line 2x 960p mode. It's working very well indeed.

Sorry for going in Circles around the Wii, but just noticed that i somehow forgot mentioning GeckoOS. Put that on your homebrewed Wii, and lauch the homebrew channel vía bootmii. With it you can launch the disc with only a Gamecube controller.

That's why I talked about doing your homework (Sorry, i know it's a kind of aggressive expresión). My fault for for getting it when it was the very first homebrew i used on my Wii for loading NTSC games

 

[dark10x]

I'm not here to compare e-weiners, dude, but don't pretend that Dolphin doesn't render Gamecube games way better than real hardware.

It does but with issues in many games. I also don't feel all artwork scales up well to higher resolutions. I prefer the look of them on a good PVM in many cases. Dolphin IS excellent, though, but it's not so black and white.

I do like to compare. You may have me beat, though, since you seem very confident. We'll see where I upgrade next.

PC = 10-core Skylake X i9 + 32gb DDR4 3200 + 8tb worth of SSD drives + GTX Titan Xp (soon 2080ti). CPU was selected primarily for video projects, though, rather than gaming but it's not a bottleneck with Dolphin. I can run anything in Dolphin but that doesn't mean Dolphin handles everything flawlessly.

TV = 65" C8 OLED in addition to 38" 3840x1600 ultrawide monitor with ULMB + 32" 1440p CAD monitor and a pair of Sony PVM CRT monitors + Pioneer Kuro second gen. None are perfect but it's about the closest I've managed to get.

Sound = KEF R300s + matching center + SVS sub + surround/Atmos configuration paired with a recent Denon amp (good enough).

Sorry for going in Circle around the Wii, but just noticed that i somehow forgot mentioning GeckoOS. Put that on your homebrewed Wii, and lauch the homebrew channel vía bootmii. With it you can launch the disc with only a Gamecube controller.

That's why I talked about doing your homework (Sorry, i know it's a kind of aggressive expresión). My fault for for getting it when it was the very first homebrew i used on my Wii for loading NTSC games

Yeah, I've had weird issues with this myself (lots of black screens) when trying to boot in this way but I really should give it another shot as that does sound interesting. I really need to check out some of the in-progress Wii video mods.

Either way, for this video, the Wii isn't really part of the conversation at all but, yeah, there IS potential there in the future.

 

[stranno]

I have not seen the video yet, but I've been reading the era thread and i can't say I really approve D dark10x dismissing Wii w/component cable and Wii U HDMI vía homebrew for being slightly inferior solutions.

Wii outputs really good quality in Gamecube for me but WiiU has a really poor image scaler and it only has Limited Range over HDMI, so the final image doesnt hold up well..

 

[El_Belmondo]

It does but with issues in many games. I also don't feel all artwork scales up well to higher resolutions. I prefer the look of them on a good PVM in many cases. Dolphin IS excellent, though, but it's not so black and white.

I do like to compare. You may have me beat, though, since you seem very confident. We'll see where I upgrade next.

PC = 10-core Skylake X i9 + 32gb DDR4 3200 + 8tb worth of SSD drives + GTX Titan Xp (soon 2080ti). CPU was selected primarily for video projects, though, rather than gaming but it's not a bottleneck with Dolphin. I can run anything in Dolphin but that doesn't mean Dolphin handles everything flawlessly.

TV = 65" C8 OLED in addition to 38" 3840x1600 ultrawide monitor with ULMB + 32" 1440p CAD monitor and a pair of Sony PVM CRT monitors + Pioneer Kuro second gen. None are perfect but it's about the closest I've managed to get.

Sound = KEF R300s + matching center + SVS sub + surround/Atmos configuration paired with a recent Denon amp (good enough).


Yeah, I've had weird issues with this myself (lots of black screens) when trying to boot in this way but I really should give it another shot as that does sound interesting. I really need to check out some of the in-progress Wii video mods.

Either way, for this video, the Wii isn't really part of the conversation at all but, yeah, there IS potential there in the future.

Yes, I'm aware, however since i'm banned over there i wasn't able to counterpoint you and i really wanted, since i found you being... Yeah, quite harsh, i can understand you however given the initial reactions to the Video.

I'll watch it tomorrow btw, i watched the My life in gaming video and got me interested in your angle too. Sorry if i came out a little harsh too.

 

[dark10x]

Yes, I'm aware, however since i'm banned over there i wasn't able to counterpoint you and i really wanted, since i found you being... Yeah, quite harsh, i can understand you however given the initial reactions to the Video.

I'll watch it tomorrow btw, i watched the My life in gaming video and got me interested in your angle too. Sorry if i came out a little harsh too.

That’s no problem. You’re right, I intentionally took a harsh approach due to the initial reaction even though I don’t feel THAT strongly or anything. I was simply annoyed by some of the comments.

 

[Aintitcool]

The lack of gamecube classics on switch is such a waste.

 

[El_Belmondo]

The lack of gamecube classics on switch is such a waste.

To be honest, some games wouldn't be comfortable without a Gamecube controller.

I really don't think it would work.

 

[Moses85]

I'm not here to compare e-weiners, dude, but don't pretend that Dolphin doesn't render Gamecube games way better than real hardware.

OMG, what a Kindergarten, tell him your specs.

 

[Chittagong]

To be honest, some games wouldn't be comfortable without a Gamecube controller.

I really don't think it would work.

https://www.powera.com/us/gamecube/

though

 

[El_Belmondo]

https://www.powera.com/us/gamecube/

though

Those don't have analog+2 stage triggers. Power A gc controllers are basically pro controllers inside a Gc-like shell

It's Power A basically banking on the Smash release

 

[Chittagong]

Those don't have analog+2 stage triggers. Power A gc controllers are basically pro controllers inside a Gc-like shell

Really? What a shame. There’s always some weird compromise with Nintendo officially licensed controllers. For the D pad one it was no wireless. For Pokeball Plus it’s no home button. I guess here it’s at least understandable as Switch doesn’t support analog triggers as standard.

 

[El_Belmondo]

Really? What a shame. There’s always some weird compromise with Nintendo officially licensed controllers. For the D pad one it was no wireless. For Pokeball Plus it’s no home button. I guess here it’s at least understandable as Switch doesn’t support analog triggers as standard.

My guess is that third parties just want to go cheap so they can compete. The PowerA seem to be a good alternative, mostly, for what i've been reading over the net, but only if you want an almost genuine Gamecube feel with your Switch.

I prefer going official (I'm giving a good use to my Wii U GC adapter) but i can see how this can have an audience.

 

[Chittagong]

My guess is that third parties just want to go cheap so they can compete. The PowerA seem to be a good alternative, mostly, for what i've been reading over the net, but only if you want an almost genuine Gamecube feel with your Switch.

I prefer going official (I'm giving a good use to my Wii U GC adapter) but i can see how this can have an audience.

Probably most of the audience is people like me who found the official controller and adapter sold out, and found this. It’s got great reviews and is wireless with essentially same input lag as the wired controller with adapter. But yeah, without analog triggers it’s not really a GameCube controller.

 

[benjohn]

D dark10x

I wish you could do a video on how to get the best picture through emulators whenever you have the time and feel like it. Sometimes emulators are the only option when cost and accessibility are involved. I'm not very knowledgeable on this kind of tech, Often I find the emulated picture crappy and inaccurate

 

[Shotpun]

D dark10x

I wish you could do a video on how to get the best picture through emulators whenever you have the time and feel like it. Sometimes emulators are the only option when cost and accessibility are involved. I'm not very knowledgeable on this kind of tech, Often I find the emulated picture crappy and inaccurate

Not the easiest thing to do, lots of user preference involved and no emulator is perfect. Things can also change game by game.

Not that I would mind something like that from DF.

 

[El_Belmondo]

D dark10x

I wish you could do a video on how to get the best picture through emulators whenever you have the time and feel like it. Sometimes emulators are the only option when cost and accessibility are involved. I'm not very knowledgeable on this kind of tech, Often I find the emulated picture crappy and inaccurate

But that one is... kind of subjective

It you open a thread about it, you'll likely get a different answer per person. Just take a look at PSOne for example, there are people that one the emulation as faithful as possible, others would like it at original res but without wobbly polygons and textures, others would like it in HD, and that's without speaking about filters, scanlines, etc...

This kind of videos (Like My Life in Gaming's RGB series) are looking to get the cleanest, crisper image you can get from a console regardless of the price, and there's no debate there, but emulation is a whole different beast.

 

[Spukc]

Cool i only use my pal gamecube with full rgb scart cable to my framemeister and a gameboy player modded software to force 240p output.

Is the hdmi mod an upgrade for me ? If i play gba games ?

 

[El_Belmondo]

Ok, finally managed to watch the video. First, kudos to D dark10x for getting Marc Duddleson there, he's one of my most respected youtube personalities along with dark10x himself, so this video was kind of amazing..

Second, i can't understand the criticisms, not every single DFRetro needs to be an amazing showcase of whatever game dark10x choses, in fact we just had the Resident Evil 2 one. Cut him some slack, dammit.

And third, i... don't think i would ever get the e.o.n, yesterday i watched the MLIG video and those plastic connectors just don't look too solid for me, i'd rather get the Carby and output the sound via analog cable. Still, it looks like a great product, but if i'm going to pay the price of a New 2DS for an accessory it should at least look solid.

As a final commentary, i'm pretty happy to see all this stuff about Gamecube coming out, i finally got myself another GC after selling mine a few years ago because i needed the money (Still looking to get a Game Boy Player, i need that or my setup will never be complete) and while it looks nice in my TV with game mode on and a RGB cable, i know i want it to look better. It's kind of curious, because while i'm not too fond of Nintendo's classic series iterations on it, i've always loved the machine itself, from its desing to some of the craziest games released on it. It gave us freakin' Pikmin, and Link in Soul Calibur, it's worth it just because of that.

 

[BerenKaneda]

Really? What a shame. There’s always some weird compromise with Nintendo officially licensed controllers. For the D pad one it was no wireless. For Pokeball Plus it’s no home button. I guess here it’s at least understandable as Switch doesn’t support analog triggers as standard.

Yeah its such a pain to try to change the user or even turn off the console with the Pokeball... It should have had one more button or a combination to go to the menu

 

[El_Belmondo]

To be honest the Pokeball is kind of like using a Gamecube controller for Smash: It's a fun gimmick but it's not the main controller to play with.

I find it charming anyway, and it's not like the Joycon are going to stop working when using it. Same with the GC controller on Smash.

 

[benjohn]

Cool i only use my pal gamecube with full rgb scart cable to my framemeister and a gameboy player modded software to force 240p output.

Is the hdmi mod an upgrade for me ? If i play gba games ?

Yeah, definitely an upgrade. Whether or not you are into paying that much for the upgrade is a question that only you can answer.

But that one is... kind of subjective

It you open a thread about it, you'll likely get a different answer per person. Just take a look at PSOne for example, there are people that one the emulation as faithful as possible, others would like it at original res but without wobbly polygons and textures, others would like it in HD, and that's without speaking about filters, scanlines, etc...

This kind of videos (Like My Life in Gaming's RGB series) are looking to get the cleanest, crisper image you can get from a console regardless of the price, and there's no debate there, but emulation is a whole different beast.

I agree that it's mostly subjective. The accuracy is still a point that's worth the attention though.