• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Space Marine 2 Boss: "I think if anything has contributed more to the loss of jobs [in the industry], it’s the multi-hundred million dollar budget"

LectureMaster

Gold Member
Source

Matthew-Karch.png



Space Marine 2 Boss Predicts The End Of $400 Million Triple-A Games​

Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 2 received multiple 2024 Game Awards nominations and sold over five million copies. But its makers say the visually impressive old-school-feeling sci-fi shooter cost only a quarter of what’s needed to make most big-budget AAA blockbusters. Developed by Saber Interactive, the company’s CEO, Matt Karch, thinks this model is the future.

“I think that the age of the $200 million, $300 million, $400 million triple-A game is on its way out,” he told Stephen Totilo at Game File in an interview published earlier this week. “I don’t think it’s necessary. I don’t think it’s appropriate.”

By some estimates, average AAA game budgets have more than doubled every console generation. The first Spider-Man on PlayStation 4 was around $100 million to make. Spider-Man 2 on PlayStation 5 was over $300 million. But the games don’t sell dramatically better and are only priced $10 higher.

Some games try to make up the difference with aggressive microtransaction shops. Karch thinks part of Space Marine 2's success, and the way fans flocked to it, can be attributed to its one-and-done campaign and the fact it doesn’t “milk, nickel and dime” players like live-service games.

Insomniac Games, the studio behind Spider-Man 1 and 2, like many teams in the video game industry over the last few years, suffered layoffs just a few months after the sequel came out despite strong sales. “I don’t know how best to put it...I think if anything has contributed more to the loss of jobs, it’s the multi-hundred million dollar budget,” Karch told Game File.

He pitches Space Marine 2 as an alternative. Last year, former id Software studio director turned Saber Interactive chief creative officer, Tim Willits, told IGN thatthe sequel to the cult-favorite Xbox 360-era shooteronly cost half of what it took to make Doom Eternal, but looks and plays equally well. No doubt part of that is due to much cheaper development costs outside of the U.S. where most of Saber Interactive’s staff work.

“We can make games [like] Space Marine,” Karch told Game File this week. “You’re not going to tell me it doesn’t have a Triple A vibe to it. You may say, ‘Oh it’s double-A plus.’ It’s a solid game. Its budget was a quarter of what anybody else would spend.”

Whether Space Marine 2 proves to be the exception or the new rule remains to be seen. Others warn that the mid-level space it’s playing in is essentially dead for all but the biggest standouts, swallowed up by Fortnite, Call of Duty, and other mega-hits that consume an increasing amount of money and time from a limited number of players. And the biggest game of 2025, Grand Theft Auto 6, will likely have cost way more than just $400 million to make.

 

kevboard

Member
higher budgets with higher financial risks also mean that the developers aren't allowed to take creative risks, which then leads to dogshit games like Spider-Man 2, where everything is dumbed down and automated as to never frustrate the casual target audience they need to cater to in order to sell enough copies to make a profit.
 

Three

Member
I suppose that's one way of looking at it but he's essentially saying teams should have been smaller to begin with or paid less. Those aren't good for the industry either.
 

Zuzu

Member
I don’t think big budget games will disappear but there might be fewer of them, at least for a while. I don’t want them to go away either. I love games with great graphics, spectacular set pieces and really high quality animation, voice acting and cutscenes. Hopefully they can figure out a number of ways to bring the costs down while maintaining the same production quality.
 

samoilaaa

Member
Can't disagree. From last year, Metaphor, Astro Bot and Space Marine 2 were my favorite games by far. Clearly none of those have hundreds of millions invested in them. I would be perfectly happy seeing more games like those in the future.
hes wrong

bioware is now less than 100 people because of the budget ? if the game was fun it would have sold over 10 million copies and we wouldnt be having this conversation

look at cyberpunk , budget of over 400 million and is very successful , just make your game fun , appealing and not woke ( i know cyberpunk is woke but not veilguard or concord woke ) and watch how the magic happens

another example is BG3 with a budget of over 150 million , nobody thought that an turn based rpg would sell in this day and age but it did and very well too
 
Last edited:
hes wrong

bioware is now less than 100 people because of the budget ? if the game was fun it would have sold over 10 million copies and we wouldnt be having this conversation

look at cyberpunk , budget of over 400 million and is very successful , just make your game fun , appealing and not woke ( i know cyberpunk is woke but not veilguard or concord woke ) and watch how the magic happens
Elder Scrolls VI, Fallout 5, and Witcher 4 would also easily sell 10s of millions of copies too even if their budgets are 400, 500 million etc cause those games are going to be awesome especially Fallout 5 and Elder Scrolls VI.
 
Yes, budgets have spiraled out of control and it needs to be contained. There's nothing inherently wrong about having gigantic budgets, but every game cannot operate that way. There needs to be reasonable scale for the expectations which are realistic.
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
Can't disagree. From last year, Metaphor, Astro Bot and Space Marine 2 were my favorite games by far. Clearly none of those have hundreds of millions invested in them. I would be perfectly happy seeing more games like those in the future.
KCD2 just released! 😉

And hell, even Rebirth probably didn’t cost anywhere near Spider-Man money.
 

Topher

Identifies as young
hes wrong

bioware is now less than 100 people because of the budget ? if the game was fun it would have sold over 10 million copies and we wouldnt be having this conversation

look at cyberpunk , budget of over 400 million and is very successful , just make your game fun , appealing and not woke ( i know cyberpunk is woke but not veilguard or concord woke ) and watch how the magic happens

another example is BG3 with a budget of over 150 million , nobody thought that an turn based rpg would sell in this day and age but it did and very well too

He isn't wrong because that isn't his point. His point isn't that all AAA games will fail and cause people to lose their job. Obviously that is not the case. His point is that games don't have to cost hundreds of millions to be successful and be a fun game. Personally I have become less enthused by AAA games over the last few years because they never seem to live up to the hype whereas a game like Space Marine 2 has its hooks in me and I can't get enough.
 

ZehDon

Member
The same kind of inflation happened in films. For example, Disney's Star Wars sequel are among some of the most empty and unoriginal movies in their entire library. On paper, these are basic movies, which should have landed USD$100m budgets at most. Yet, they each cost more than the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy. Massive budgets are thrown around on unambitious slop because these industries believe they know what their audiences want, but they've grown so disconnected from the actual audience that they can't tell what's good from what's trash. When you're game is ambitious as Cyberpunk 2077, a USD$400m budget can be explained. It's an absolute marvel and amongst the best games of all time. But when you're making unambitious crap like Concord, it standards as a monument to why an industry crash is damn-near required.
 

Zacfoldor

Member
AAA don’t need to cost that much. Cut costs!!! no big city office, no office perks, no voice, actors union, no 200% tax, no coffee bar in office, no baby changing table in bathroom, no nap chairs in break room, have a room, made out of two by fours in plywood, make game in room and with remote workforce.

Pay licenses for unreal and pay for IP but stop wasting money on extravagances, taxes, and culture wars that you don’t have any business in. consultants, DEI consultants, incredibly, ridiculously expensive rent every month for a gigantic facility in downtown anywhere, intimacy coordinators, these are all leeches to steal your money and make your game cost more, and you do them because HR tells you to, you do not have to do it anymore.

Costs will continue to balloon until you cast the leeches off and learn to take advantage of AI and remote work like every other industry. You also cannot carry under performing employees!
 
Last edited:

Pimpbaa

Member
I still don’t understand Spider-man 2. They made Spider-man 1 from scratch, yet doing that was significantly cheaper than a slightly bigger city and some higher res textures and more polygonal detail on buildings. Spider-man 2 not $200 million+ better than Spider-man 1. It was worse, much worse (in terms of writing). What the hell was all that extra money used for?
 

ProtoByte

Weeb Underling
I still don’t understand Spider-man 2. They made Spider-man 1 from scratch, yet doing that was significantly cheaper than a slightly bigger city and some higher res textures and more polygonal detail on buildings. Spider-man 2 not $200 million+ better than Spider-man 1. It was worse, much worse (in terms of writing). What the hell was all that extra money used for?
Even Insomniac recognizes this internally. Why is no doubt hotly debated, but this is my read:

1. General industry work culture shift - for the worse.

Between the workflows dev studios have taken up, the pseudo-unionist uprising as a result of Jason Schreier's anti-crunch Kotaku reporting, and general attitudes, devs work very differently today as opposed to 2015 when Spider-Man 1 started development. Devs have legitimately gotten lazier.

2. Bloated staffing

Dev studios have too many employees on one project. A lot of this new staff is just adding to the middle management bureaucracy and fat like overwrought accessibility devs. Not bringing up a new concept when I say Pareto principle.

3. Less pressure from distracted leadership
It's very obvious that the Ryan-Hulst regime wasn't thorough enough in setting the expectations for Sony Studios. Ryan hyped up Spider-Man 2 as if it was going to be a huge advancement and demonstrator of the PS5's potential, despite having to have known how much of a rehash it looked like, especially considering Miles Morales. Unlike Shuhei Yoshida and Shawn Layden (who may lament ambitious games now, but definitely didn't while he ran 1st party), he obviously doesn't have an eye for that exemplary game, and neither does Hulst if he really thought Concord was Sony's lifeline. They were more focused on live service crap than advancing their "mastered" area.

4. California is expensive due to a mixture of regulations and insanely high cost of living - thanks state government!


5. WFH is not more efficient in game development, and it was total gaslighting when devs were yapping the otherwise on twitter during lockdownerism

There are too many disciplines and too much necessary instances of collaboration needed for mass-WFH orders to work in big games. Nevermind any productivity hits taken because of the few people not doing shit, there's just a loss of concordance and clarity with the project.

I think the next line of leaders across the game industry are going to be hired specifically to get spending under control.
 
AA gaming is where it's at.

Who gives a F about the vast majority of AAA games we know are going to suck, and always do. Give more discussion and coverage to the games that get passed over for no good reason.
 

Bernardougf

Member
The inefficiency on the AAA industry has reached peak/break levels ... imagine the budget whatever that was 200-400 mil for that dogshit it was concord ... its unsustainable when you think 2 guys can create something like Hollow Knight.

Their priorities are all messed up.
 

BossLackey

Gold Member
Why are these games costing so much? For the most part they don’t make their own engines so they don’t need to hire expensive software engineers.

It seems like once a studio reaches a certain size, adding more people doesn't necessarily make the game better—it just makes development more expensive. Growth is the natural goal of any business, but in game development, that often just means hiring more people. The problem is, there’s a point where throwing more developers at a project leads to diminishing returns. Communication slows down, coordination becomes harder, and production pipelines get bloated. Instead of efficiency improving, costs spiral upward without a proportional increase in quality.
 

Justin9mm

Member
I have mixed feelings from Space Marines 2. I personally feel the love for the game is overhyped. It was fun, but it already got boring for me near the end of the campaign. It overstayed it's welcome and it's not even that long. I don't know, It started well and then the combat got stale and didn't hold my attention. I was just waiting to finish it in the last couple hours.
 
Last edited:

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
I didnt even realize the primary developers of Space Marine 2 were Saber St. Petersburg?
I imagine they moved development to another studio or relocated the studio entirely once the war started.
 

Da1337Vinci

Member
This strategy will reduced drastically the amount of work force in gaming.

And looking at the latest trends the amount of games winning in this high competitive environment haven't increased. Looking purely at keeping people employed AAA size games are no that bad of a strategy.
 

Topher

Identifies as young
I have mixed feelings from Space Marines 2. I personally feel the love for the game is overhyped. It was fun, but it already got boring for me near the end of the campaign. It overstayed it's welcome and it's not even that long. I don't know, It started well and then the combat got stale and didn't hold my attention. I was just waiting to finish it in the last couple hours.

The operations are an extension of the campaign and really broaden the gameplay, imo.
 

nnytk

Member
I enjoyed Space Marine 2 but it was way too short, it lacked gameplay depth in the singleplayer department and the online wasn't for me.

I hope they put all their resources for the next game, in the campaign and offline/singleplayer replayability.

In other words, be more like Hades or Balatro, or classic Gears please.
 
Top Bottom