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(Editor’s note: Variety’s interview with Sony Interactive Entertainment CEOs Hermen Hulst and Hideaki Nishino occurred on Oct. 16, prior to PlayStation’s Tuesday announcement it is shutting down Firewalk Studios and Neon Koi. SIE was unable to make studio business CEO Hulst available for additional comment or to clarify his previous comments about layoffs in this story ahead of publication.)
This spring, Sony CEO Kenichiro Yoshida turned heads when he picked two PlayStation vets to lead Sony Interactive Entertainment: Hermen Hulst and Hideaki Nishino.
After all, having co-CEOs is a potential recipe for friction. In their first interview since assuming their new roles in June, Nishino and Hulst speak to Variety about how their partnership works. They argue that the scale of the company behind the “God of War” and “Spider-Man” franchises has grown to require two operations that each need specialized leadership: a platform business run by Nishino and a studio business headed by Hulst.
“This is not co-CEOs; it’s two CEOs for the company,” Nishino says. “Hermen runs his thing, I run my thing, and then we get together to talk about how to grow the business.” Nishino acknowledges the tension inherent in the structure but spins it as a healthy dynamic: “Growing the business for success has a conflict as well: how we impact each other or how we want to sacrifice or not. It’s a balance. It’s an opportunity and a risk part.”
Hulst estimates that 80% of their day-to-day time is spent managing their discrete areas. “It’s really nice to have two devs at the helm. We both have engineering degrees; we’re both pretty hands-on,” he says, adding: “There needs to be huge trust, and we’ve worked together for a very long time.”
The two-in-a-box CEO arrangement is rare, but there’s evidence the right duo can make it work. In early 2023, for example, Netflix installed double CEOs to pilot the streamer — and so far, Ted Sarandos and Greg Peters have overseen impressive growth and stock-market highs.
Nishino became head of product at SIE (previously SCE) in 2016, then from 2021, was head of the Platform Experience Group until he became CEO in 2024. Hulst came over from his post as chief at “Horizon” maker Guerrilla Games, which Sony acquired in 2005, and went on to become head of PlayStation Studios.
It’s an unpredictable time for PlayStation. SIE’s Bungie studio laid off more than 200 staffers in July. In September, the company shut down its “Concord” live-services game two weeks after its Aug. 23 launch, then closed studios Firewalk, the maker of “Concord,” and mobile-focused brand Neon Koi earlier this week. PlayStation also was dinged over the $699 price tag for its PS5 Pro console, due out in November.
At the same time, PlayStation drew praise for new platformer “Astro Bot” and has built back cred with fans with the announcement of “Ghost of Tsushima” sequel “Ghost of Yōtei.” The division also is riding high on anticipation for Season 2 of HBO’s megahit adaptation of PS game “The Last of Us” and Amazon’s new “God of War” series.
Hulst and Nishino have adopted a “show, don’t tell” leadership style at PlayStation. “It’s important we convey our strategy,” says Hulst. “But at the end of the day, I am with the creators a big chunk of time.”
Nishino is on the same page: “To me, the product, the content, it should be the forward-facing things,” he says, adding self-effacingly: “Behind the scenes, who is the guy doing it? It doesn’t matter.”
Rest of Variety's interview with Hulst and Nishino below:
With the PS5 Pro coming out very soon after we we publish this story, I wanted to ask about the timing of that versus what will be the actual next gen device. Are you waiting for Nintendo to make the first move with a Switch 2 announcement before you will get there? And what is the plan for rolling out Pro and making it clear who the product is for versus who the actual next generation device will be for?
Nishino: So we have done Pro in the last generation. We learned a lot from there. When we were selling PS4 Pro, in addition to the PS4, 20% of customers actually got the PS4 Pro. It was high end, it was premium tier. So there are potential users acquiring those kind of units. Interestingly enough, it was not just about highly engaged users; actually, new users comes to PlayStation to get PS4 Pro, as well. So we started working on PS5 Pro even before PS5 launches — it was another five-year project for us. So there was a conversation around whether we wanted to do another Pro or not. But the main thing was, there are technologies we can grow up in three years time or five years time. So the innovation and technology advancement is more quicker in a modern world. Phones are updating every year, PCs are updating every year. I don’t think we’d go every year updates, but there are things we can package together to bring the greatest things into game console segment range. So that’s the vision.
I think it was great to see people talking about it. Like year three, usually, the conversation around the gaming console comes down, so people are shifting the conversation more to the next gen, or something like that. But we’re kind of happy to see, like most engaged gaming users are interested in the PS5 Pro, and then I’m pretty sure new users will grab the PS5 Pro as well. If it’s the PlayStation you want to get, that’s the thing. So that’s where we designed the generation at this moment. We design everything with having one ahead in our mind. It’s not like we just make a next step and we don’t know about the two steps ahead. That’s not our way of working, because we need to make sure that the 10-year-old, generation cycle continues to be going as well.
How do you balance that on the development side: knowing when certain devices are going to hit and what titles you are ready to announce or not? I’m very excited about “Ghost of Yōtei” next year, but I feel like there isn’t another really big one you have announced yet that would show a need to be played on PS5 Pro. Do have big title announcements coming soon tied to Pro or for the next gen?
Hulst: We spend a lot of time doing portfolio planning, and platform is a big part of that. So when we were doing our planning from early stages of PlayStation 5, it was really important to get really high quality titles on PlayStation 5 right out of the gate. And that’s served us well and bought us the position of PlayStation 5 that’s really, really good.
I think the other thing to say here is that the teams love tinkering with the hardware. They love the privilege of being involved in the hardware. And hardware is not just the boxes, it’s also the peripherals. And teams like Team Asobi on “Astro Bot,” that team is a prime example of early on, helping design, in addition to some schemes, the hardware features of the controller, creating demos for it. And actually, in some cases, these demos evolve into an entire product that becomes a large product in its own way. So we are involved in that. We enjoy that very much. Same with PS5 Pro. Both of the demos that you’ve seen are PlayStation Studios. Teams take great pride in doing that. Obviously we’re involved in any hardware planning efforts. It’s very much that symbiosis of on the hardware side, what can you guys do with it? And here’s the feedback, and can you make demonstrations for it? And all of that to inspire third-party, which is a huge source of revenue, obviously, for the business, to inspire what you can do and what’s the quality bar for these short showcases. That always has been part of what PlayStation studios do, and it will always be. And that’s in addition to finding the incremental additional revenue streams or opportunities to leverage in film and television and merchandise and location-based entertainment and whatever else.
Nishino: I just wanted to say that the Pro is not a next gen. It is still in the PS5 generation. PS5 Pro will do everything what PS5 does. So it’s a consumer choice. If they see a need for more visuality, they will get it. So we wanted to provide an option for the consumer within the generation, that’s what we’re doing.
When it comes to the adaption side, which has obviously revved up a lot at PlayStation over the years, with “The Last of Us” Season 2 — potentially Season 3 after that? — and the “God of War” and “Horizon” TV shows in the works. Where are those projects right now? And on the game side, are you looking at releasing new games in those franchises alongside those shows?
Hulst: “The Last of Us” HBO series has been a game changer in terms of the credibility of adaptations from games to television series. We learned a lot from that. We learned that it’s really important to involve the original creators to ensure that your experience remains very authentic. As the teams stay involved, we’re applying these kind of learnings across the board. At PlayStation productions, we have 10 productions now in the works: “The Last of Us,” “Twisted Metal,” a few others that we’re very excited about. I think going forward, we will become increasingly meticulous and rigorous about our franchising. So we’re talking about adaptations, but in adaptations, that’s taking the game and then see what else you can do with it. We’re actually looking to build from the ground up — as we tried to do originally with “Horizon,” in creating this world and creating this storyline — and how can you tell stories in this world on various mediums? And so we’re setting up franchise teams and portfolio management teams to work with teams to do that properly and find different ways to tell stories in the worlds that we’re creating.
You all underwent rounds of layoffs earlier this year similar to those that hit the entire gaming industry in 2024. But Microsoft recently had new ones, you all have taken “Concord” offline, and you had additional cuts at Bungie. What is the current outlook for PlayStation and expectations of studios and games being shut down moving forward?
Hulst: I will say a few things on that. It’s our duty to look at our our resource planning, and make sure that we run a sustainable business. That’s part of being CEO. We never take that lightly, because we know these people personally, and it’s very close to our hearts and the teams and good working atmospheres. But yes, we’ve had some layoffs. But it’s also important to realize that on the content side, PlayStation Studios is now a much bigger organization than when it started. It’s grown tremendously. And that is organic growth that our existing teams, I think, hired quite aggressively, as well as through M&A. So the organization, the employment is much greater now than it was, let’s say, for example, five years ago.
PlayStation CEOs Hideaki Nishino and Hermen Hulst Reveal How New Two-Business Strategy Impacts Studio, Console Plans (EXCLUSIVE)
New PlayStation CEOs Hideaki Nishino and Hermen Hulst sit down for their first interview together after assuming their roles.
variety.com
(if Xbox doesn't pull out all together)
