What on earth are you talking about. I actually moved this picture to my 42" TV and got about 5" from it to be sure and there is not any aliasing on that. I think what you are seeing is the low poly geometry. Hold on I'll find a better picture it was my fault for choosing a poor example.
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At 4K does AA become unneeded?
- Thread starter bomblord1
- Start date
What on earth are you talking about. I actually moved this picture to my 42" TV and got about 5" from it to be sure and there is not any aliasing on that. I think what you are seeing is the low poly geometry. Hold on I'll find a better picture it was my fault for choosing a poor example.
Super sampling is Anti-Aliasing. It's the best kind of AA as well.
You don't get to pick better examples until you find one that satisfies your theory. You should be able to bring up any screenshots of any game at any moment, and if you can see aliasing in any of them, then you're wrong man.
First answer the question of whether you are using 4k internal resolution.
Because then what you are posting is a downsampled (to 1080p) 4k image with 2xAA.
So a 1080p image with 4xSSAA and 2xMSAA on top of that.
(And actually, that's a very low-contrast game overall, which inherently makes aliasing issues less pronounced)
Oh, and I am quite capable of distinguishing low-poly rendering from aliasing
TouchMyBox
Member
I don't mind a little bit of aliasing, so at 1440p AA is the last thing i ever enable. Of course high resolutions are harder to drive as it is, so I'd take the performance jump every time over AA.
I imagine if I got a 4K screen I'd hardly ever use AA and wouldn't really mind, but it would still be noticeable, yeah.
Considering that an 8K 27 inch monitor would have a similar pixel density to the iPhone 5, and aliasing is still slightly noticeable on that device, we'd probably need something like 400 PPI, so like 10K or something.
I imagine if I got a 4K screen I'd hardly ever use AA and wouldn't really mind, but it would still be noticeable, yeah.
Considering that an 8K 27 inch monitor would have a similar pixel density to the iPhone 5, and aliasing is still slightly noticeable on that device, we'd probably need something like 400 PPI, so like 10K or something.
Supersampling is basically anti-aliasing by way of rendering at higher resolutions, though. Its not fair to keep saying @1080p when you're not really rendering at 1080p anymore.
Nope, since there are such evil things as texture aliasing producing nasty-looking moiré patterns. To fix that you need some of that tasty quality AA.
Does AA help with textures?
Yes.
His original example said that AA is needed even when downsampling from 5K (also its 4X IR not 4K ir that's a typo 4x 480p) It's a ~2k image being rendered to a 1080p window with 2X AA.
Help what? And which type of AA?
MSAA doesn't change textures at all.
SSAA improves perceived texture detail and reduces texture aliasing.
FXAA also may reduce texture aliasing, but at the cost of some blurring.
No, that's AF (Anisotropic filtering)
Corronchilejano
Member
Jaggies and aliased sprites aren't something that can be solved with any type of AA, and has nothing to do with resolution.
Anyway, Durante is all up in this
female dog
I know what it is, I described what it is in the post you responded to.
I also edited that post to add:
If we were to take your method for eliminating aliasing at 1080p and apply it to a 4K screen resolution, it seems we would be rendering at 8K, with 2xSSAA applied over the top of that to effectively be needing the power to run at a resolution of 16k or so. That's just not feasible as far as hardware at this point, and not a realistic way to deduce that AA at 4K is not needed.
As I said earlier in the thread, what it really should be is pixels per degree of the field of view.
PPDFOV if you will.
Stop saying 2xAA. Saying what type of AA, cuz its becoming confusing what you're talking about.
Also '2k' isn't any one thing. It could mean one of several different resolutions.
Be clear when talking about this stuff so we're all on the same page.
I'm saying you are perceiving aliasing where there is none the sprites and textures are being blow up from 480p (this is a wii game) to 1080p that's where the effect is coming from.
I just grabbed a random screenshot of a game I took in dolphin (I know the settings I took it in) because I remembered it being incredibly crisp without inspecting it well enough (low res textures and sprites causing issues). the actual geometry in that picture has no visible aliasing in it. Look at the edge of the shoulders for example.
Well technically no, it cant be 'solved', but you *can* diminish jaggies to a degree that they become imperceptible depending on your viewing situation. And this is done through AA techniques and resolution. Obviously if get close/zoom in enough, you'll still be able to see the pixel steps of an object but there's no need to be so literal about it when we're talking about practical scenarios.
4x 480p exactly 2560 x 2112 with 2x AA running in dolphin.
4x native in dolphin is 2560x2112. I believe they implement 2xSSAA one-dimensionally, so what we are seeing there is either 5120x2112 or 2560x4224 downsampled to 1080p. Combined with the overall low contrast, and the fact that it's just an image (eliminating temporal aliasing and flicker) it's not too surprising that there's little aliasing in that.
Btw in Dolphin 1xIR = 640x528. 4xIR = 2650x2112. That screenshot looks like 2xMSAA as well, which is why aliasing is still visible.
Edit: Beaten by Durante. However I'm pretty sure that Dolphin uses MSAA for anti-aliasing.
bomblord1 you should check your monitor/TV's sharpness settings, it might be messed up.
Edit: Beaten by Durante. However I'm pretty sure that Dolphin uses MSAA for anti-aliasing.
bomblord1 you should check your monitor/TV's sharpness settings, it might be messed up.
I don't know if it's needed at 4K I just thought since I can't even see it on my 20" monitor while downsampling in dolphin to 1080p with 2xAA then a 4K monitor would probably be not needed. I've never seen a 20" 4K monitor in person. That initial "32K" resolution was what started this.
And it's therefore not really accurate to say "1080p with 2xAA has no noticeable aliasing on my 1080p monitor" when that is what you are actually talking about.
the different functions kinda answers my questions. In my mind and mostly in the way I hear AA spoke of it usually seems to only be in regards to the edges of a model rather than what's going on inside of the model, if that makes sense.
According to that test everything is good.
You're not seeing the same things we are, since you're on a 20" monitor from 3ft away, obviously. There *is* aliasing in that screenshot.
You should probably get a larger monitor if you're sitting that far away, too. Must seem tiny.
You are right I was wrong on that I didn't actually check the rendering resolution until I started grabbing screenshots. It would be better to say 2560x2112 downsampled to 1080p with 2xAA
Just moved to my 42" TV still not seeing it.
No. 4xIR in Dolphin is 4x of 640x528 which is 2560x2112. 4K is 3840x2160.
To be fair 2560x2112 with 2xMSAA, while not perfect, is pretty decent.
As for the screenshot, I noticed aliasing in the right character's right leg; you can see a tiny little stairstep in front of the left guy's sword.
And how far are you from your 42" TV?
So not quite 4k.
I got close enough I could make out individual pixels and inspected the edges of all the characters to try to find the Aliasing.
Mohonky
Member
Depends on the display tech also. I game on a plasma so the image is inherently softer. Bayonetta 2 got murdered when people discussed its graphics because of jaggies and honestly I saw fuck all jaggies when I played it. The only time I saw them was during cutscenes which looked oddly lower res for some reason and the jaggies were really obvious, in game though I barely even noticed any anyless there was an object that was prism shaped with hard sharp edges, thats when thats about the only time in game I noticed them, outside of that and the cutscenes I cant recall seeing fuck all.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
On my 42 inch plasma and a proper distance? No. Post-process AA gets it damn close, but shader aliasing can still create issues.
http://abload.de/img/so3ee9-3zcsef.png
Same settings ignore the hud and background shrubbery (they are flat textures no geometry) the hud is being rendered in 480p. I can notice slight aliasing here on the edges of characters specifically around the top of the girls hat 4XAA would probably fix that.
lightchris
Member
Perceived edge aliasing will be less than at 4k without AA though (at least on average).
It would be great if you mentioned what 4xAA in this context means.
Dolphin's solution they literally don't label it. Someone earlier said it's MSAA.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
I feel bad for you
Schreckstoff
Banned
Shouldn't that be measured in ppi/dpi?
My surface pro 2 has a 10" 1080p so that'd be 208 dpi, my 47" tv has just 47 dpi in comparison
My surface pro 2 has a 10" 1080p so that'd be 208 dpi, my 47" tv has just 47 dpi in comparison
I agree that's why it crossed my mind that 4K on an "average" sized monitor at an "average" sitting distance may not need AA at all.
Now I want you to attempt similar comparisons with modern games, with more detailed geometry, Higher Dynamic Range and Greater Specular highlights.
Aliasing becomes a lot less visible when there isn't a great deal of contrast. In other words as in generic signal processing terms, you're trying to fit too much real information with too limited a capability to physically replicate.
200.26 PPI with the solution in the OP @ 1-2 foot.
There's pretty obvious aliasing on high-contrast near-horizontal or near-vertical edges in that, e.g. between the tree and the sky.
No.
About 3 million pixels short, actually.
Then you don't know what to look for.
Aliasing is aliasing man, however its caused. You cant just say, "Oh those jaggies don't count." There's aliasing all over that image. The grass, the walls, the tree trunk, the characters, the stone railing, etc.
Stevey
Member
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