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Gaf, why is Dark Souls 2 so bad?

thefil

Member
Count me in on the Dark Souls II defense force. I have not yet played SotFS. I like the story, I like the map tonal difference, I love Majula, I don't find it mechanically to be particular better or worse than Dark Souls or DeS, just different. I think it's the most consistent of the Souls games, but Bloodborne is probably more consistent and obviously Dark 1 has higher highs.

Some days, it's my favourite game in the series.
 

impact

Banned
Never had real hitbox problems even on SL1 outside of the few obvious ones (like the Ogre's grab attack).

They exist

Or just type "dark souls 2 hitbox" into youtube. There's people who played Dragons Dogma on PS3 and claimed "there is nothing wrong with this game, it runs fine!" because they just didn't notice how bad the port was. I feel the same thing happened with DS2 and it's garbo hitboxes.
 

MayMay

Banned
It blows my mind how much they fucked up SotFS.

I didnt play alot of it, but in the early game areas it's crazy just how many more enemies they added that don't belong there at all. Original DS2 already had more than enough enemies and you were constantly fighting huge groups but SotFS makes it even worse

And it's supposed to be the "true" Dark Souls 2 experience.. yeah, no thanks.

Edit: Not even gonna mention all the bugs the 60fps introduced. PC had them since release of the original DS2, and some (not even all) only got fixed once console players had them too when they got SotFS.
 
They exist

Or just type "dark souls 2 hitbox" into youtube. There's people who played Dragons Dogma on PS3 and claimed "there is nothing wrong with this game, it runs fine!" because they just didn't notice how bad the port was. I feel the same thing happened with DS2 and it's garbo hitboxes.

I don't know if they patched the hit boxes but I remember watching a Dark Souls 2 stream on twitch a while back and it was very apparent the hit boxes were off. Even the guy playing kept mentioning how bad it was. This was maybe weeks after the game launched so I'm not sure if they ever fixed it. I'm playing it on the ps4 and I'm very early in the game but I did notice the giant hippo creatures do grab you sometimes when they're not supposed to.
 

Aurongel

Member
DS2 is literally the best example in recent memory of a developer taking a formula and just cranking up the raw numbers in order to add challenge.

Group combat is the norm, boss health bars become a test of patience, some enemies have infinite stamina and the game is filled with less than stellar areas devoid of character.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
They exist

Or just type "dark souls 2 hitbox" into youtube. There's people who played Dragons Dogma on PS3 and claimed "there is nothing wrong with this game, it runs fine!" because they just didn't notice how bad the port was. I feel the same thing happened with DS2 and it's garbo hitboxes.

Phantom range and lag bullshit as been in all the games. I'm not gonna pretend there arent issues but at least you could have shown me single player stuff. I already have like 400 hours of pvp in 2 so I know hitboxes can be weird there just like they were weird in souls 1.
 

Tagyhag

Member
Because it's the worst of the Souls series.

The level design sucks, the enemies mostly suck, there's too many bosses and not enough variety, the lore is not as interesting as other games and the Scholar update added more enemies to somehow try to fight bad encounters (It didn't help).

It has some upsides, 60fps for current gen consoles, lots of different builds that are effective, some nice art direction, and lots of content.

I'm not even a big fan of Bloodborne but I'd take it over DS2 any day.
 
Phantom range and lag bullshit as been in all the games. I'm not gonna pretend there arent issues but at least you could have shown me single player stuff. I already have like 400 hours of pvp in 2 so I know hitboxes can be weird there just like they were weird in souls 1.

LOL Did you watch the video. Jerp talks about the previous games and it isn't close to being that bad.

And if you look earlier in the thread there plenty of single player hitbox bullshit.
 

Stevey

Member
I liked it.
The world/map or whatever of Dark Souls is so much better, but it's by no stretch of the imagination a bad game.

Looking forward to Dark Souls 3.
 

Cyrano

Member
Phantom range and lag bullshit as been in all the games. I'm not gonna pretend there arent issues but at least you could have shown me single player stuff. I already have like 400 hours of pvp in 2 so I know hitboxes can be weird there just like they were weird in souls 1.
Yeah, pretty much. Unless they use GGPO as their solution, it's unlikely any combat in an online videogame is going to feel seamless.
 

Skii

Member
It's a good game but a really bad Souls game. I'd suggest you play proper Souls games like Demon's and Dark Souls before moving on to DS2. But I'd expect DS3 to return to the formula of Demon's/Dark/Bloodborne which will be great for the player. Based Miyazaki.
 
DS2 is literally the best example in recent memory of a developer taking a formula and just cranking up the raw numbers in order to add challenge.

Group combat is the norm, boss health bars become a test of patience, some enemies have infinite stamina and the game is filled with less than stellar areas devoid of character.

Well thats what it feels like. But I haven't played Demons Souls or Dark Souls 1 yet, so we'll see.
 

impact

Banned
Phantom range and lag bullshit as been in all the games. I'm not gonna pretend there arent issues but at least you could have shown me single player stuff. I already have like 400 hours of pvp in 2 so I know hitboxes can be weird there just like they were weird in souls 1.

Like the video says though, there's no reason for this shit to happen as much as it does. It's so much more frequent in DS2 than in Demons or Dark 1. Netcode should get better with time and experience, not worse.
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
I'll admit I'm not a fan of the enemy placement in SOTFS, it does adversely affect game balance early on, like it was meant for NG+ not a straight new game. Its much more manageable later on.
I still think DSII gets a really bad rap for what it lacks in level design and the frame issues. That said, the build and weapon variety is pretty good. DSII at worst is an A-
 

Arttemis

Member
Everything about the movement and mechanics in DS2 feels wrong and incorrect than DeS, DS, and BB. It's as though the character's steps and animations are improperly applied to some floating model. Yuck.

I heard the DLC in it is well designed, but I can't suffer through the game long enough to find out.
 
Not a bad game but it's easily the worst in the Souls series. My biggest complaints:

1. An embarrassing proportion of enemies follow the cookie-cutter "tall humanoid with huge weapon they swing from side to side". This goes for bosses as well. The amount of non-humanoid enemies that don't go down easily by circle strafing is tiny. Circle strafing in this game seems less like a legitimate strategy and more an easy workaround for the clunky AI not built all that well to handle it.

2. Thematically and aesthetically inconsistent. Some places look gorgeous, while others look ass ugly. Art style is all over the place. Some places have fantastic lighting and texture work, others look like amateur hour with flat shading and repeating textures everywhere. Some places look super inspired, others are insipid retreads of existing Souls environments offering nothing new.

3. Level design takes a huge step down. By far the least "lived-in" world in the game, and not just because its distances were deliberately obfuscated. I'm talking about buildings with hallways, rooms, and alcoves that make no sense, square and large empty rooms in way more places than there should've been, tons of invisible walls of areas you can't get to that were "cordoned off" by rubble that your character could easily jump over, etc. There were inspired ideas but were half-assed and were marred by ideas that just shouldn't have made it into the final game.

4. Combat is...there. This is largely the fault of the uninspired enemies leading to generic encounters, but the combat didn't feel fresh or inventive in any way. I can attest to the fact that I was screwed over by plenty of shitty hitboxes, and while it wasn't something that happened literally every time I played, it was still something that happened too often.

5. Bonfire placement is screwed up. I understand they wanted a "snappier" gameplay loop where it felt like you were progressing more easily, but it just made the world design a mess. Bonfires were less "milestones" in your progression and more like mere checkpoints. They reduced the cap on your HP on death precisely because otherwise you lose practically nothing by dying. I never once felt the dread of being smack dab in the middle of an oppressive environment, not knowing when the next bonfire is and desperately wanting to get to it, and feeling a rush of relief once I see one. The frequency of DS2's bonfire placement killed that feeling, and it's one of the best things Souls games do.

6. World design is the worst of the series. Not terrible, but nowhere near the genius of the world design in other Souls games. It doesn't have the thematic consistency of Bloodborne, the intricate interconnected-ness of Dark Souls 1, or the elaborate semi-linear level-based structure of Demon's Souls. You basically picked a singular direction to go to and went further and further until you beat a major boss, then you watch as the game developers run out of ideas, shrug their shoulders, and just plop in a "Primal Bonfire" in a big empty room to clunkily dump you back into Majula. There was also a big case of quantity over quality. So many different environments in the game, but very, very few were memorable and quite a lot of them were tiny and underdeveloped. It felt they were more interested in rushing you into the next environment so you wouldn't realize how undercooked your current environment is.

7. Encounter design is poor. I only played SotFS and even though I did think the "enemies rush you" complaint is a bit overblown, they do overdo it in spots. Iron Keep is the worst at this. The Ivory King DLC's gankfest before the final battle there is easily the stupidest and worst designed encounter I've ever played in Souls series. Besides ganking, though, is the fact that enemies in several places just feel like they're sprinkled on empty rooms. The amount of times where they weaved enemy behavior into unique architecture to create interesting encounters is very few. Sometimes they just plop in enemies in rooms/hallways and call it a day.

I can't comment on the story because I wasn't anywhere near interested enough to actually dig up clues.

I beat the game and was thoroughly entertained by it, but yeah, easily the worst Souls game. I think there's a lot of great ideas in there but the execution was marred by designers who simply didn't know the nuances of what makes a good Souls game, and that kind of issue permeates in every aspect of the game, from level to world to encounter to enemy design. I think it's valuable in that it goes to show just how easy it is to screw up a Souls game, because without a doubt it's difficult to design these games and make them interesting and hard without being cheap.

Eh. Different design philosophy. It's Demons Souls level design (Hub with spokes, that is) without shortcuts because you can warp from the start. I agree that exploring and finding your own shortcuts is much more rewarding though.

That's not Demon's Souls level design, though. DeS level design is...well...levels. There's a definitive beginning, middle, and end, and at the end of each level is a boss followed by an Archstone that discretely separates the levels. If you lose in the middle of a level or at the boss encounter you're sent back to the beginning of the level. The levels are self-contained areas with shortcuts that loop backward or forward within the level, so if you're having a hard time with a boss you're given tons of opportunities to explore other alcoves in the levels and are encouraged to find checkpoints to make your run to the boss easier.

Dark Souls 2's design philosophy is just DS1-style areas with more bonfires haphazardly thrown around. There's no rhyme or reason or any sort of attention to pacing in between the areas. To call it the "Demon's Souls" philosophy is to overlook practically everything about Demon's Souls actual level design philosophy.
 

Mman235

Member
boss health bars become a test of patience

This is straight up wrong if we're comparing to the other games. DS2 is probably the easiest game in the series to annihilate bosses with massive amounts of damage (which is part of why many of them don't stick out), especially as you can get max upgrade weapons about a quarter of the way into the game if you know what to do.

Bloodborne in particular is a far worse offender with the later stuff (I think BB has the overall strongest set of bosses despite that, but goddamn you could cut at least a quarter of the health off some of the end-game stuff and lose nothing but tedium).
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
LOL Did you watch the video. Jerp talks about the previous games and it isn't close to being that bad.

And if you look earlier in the thread there plenty of single player hitbox bullshit.

Yeah I had a way worse time with lag and connection issues in 1 than in 2. I dont know if it was different on console compared to pc though and I have no idea if it was different at launch compared to when i played it several months later.
 

Tiops

Member
What about teleporting enemies?

TemptingDenseEskimodog.gif


Ok, I'll stop. I love the game, at the same time I hate it.
 

Cyrano

Member
Like the video says though, there's no reason for this shit to happen as much as it does. It's so much more frequent in DS2 than in Demons or Dark 1. Netcode should get better with time and experience, not worse.
It's about the same. Improving netcode would be nice, but it's doubtful it's going to be a focus.
 

neoism

Member
I absolutely love bloodborne, I love it so much, its probably one of my favourite games ever by now. But I started Dark Souls 2 on PS4 the other day after getting it cheap from gamestop, played about 10 hours, and man its not good, I think I'm gonna quit. I mean, I don't know if sucks is exactly the right word for it, but its so fucking obtuse, frustrating, the combat is so dull and bullshit, drives me mad. Am I a peasant who doesn't understand good mechanics or what?

Here's 10 enemies to try and dodge that you could kill in two hits but you can't get them all before they get you isn't fun. Horde enemies just aren't fun like this.

that sucks was my goty for 2014 plus thevanilla version is the best one... to play... i loooooved BB as well... but ds2 s the best souls game.. its also the BEST pvp souls game even better than BB the bell system sucked ass...
 

Spukc

always chasing the next thrill
i never liked any demon souls game..
and i am no scrub i finished most monster hunter game.

the souls series never seemed to respect my time
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
This is straight up wrong if we're comparing to the other games. DS2 is probably the easiest game in the series to annihilate bosses with massive amounts of damage (which is part of why many of them don't stick out), especially as you can get max upgrade weapons about a quarter of the way into the game if you know what to do.

Bloodborne in particular is a far worse offender with the later stuff (I think BB has the overall strongest set of bosses despite that, but goddamn you could cut at least a quarter of the health off some of the end-game stuff and lose nothing but tedium).

Yup. Souls 2 bosses generally have piss poor defenses (the mace and rapier will annihiliate the base game). You have to go into the DLC to find bosses with serious resistances and health bars.
 
Out of all the Souls games and Bloodborne I love it the most by far and I haven't even played Sins.

Something about it was so much more satisfying the the other games. Hell I couldn't even beat Dark Souls because I got feed up with it shortly after blighttown.
 

ZangBa

Member
This is straight up wrong if we're comparing to the other games. DS2 is probably the easiest game in the series to annihilate bosses with massive amounts of damage (which is part of why many of them don't stick out), especially as you can get max upgrade weapons about a quarter of the way into the game if you know what to do.

Bloodborne in particular is a far worse offender with the later stuff (I think BB has the overall strongest set of bosses despite that, but goddamn you could cut at least a quarter of the health off some of the end-game stuff and lose nothing but tedium).

You mean to tell me Laurence could lose some health? More like double it.
 

Klyka

Banned
One of the most boring looking and playing games I played. After DS1 which was great, this one fell so flat and was just uninspired in every way.
 

Hollow

Member
Ok, I'll stop. I love the game, at the same time I hate it.

That pretty much sums up how I feel as well. I love the class freedom. It's probably the most open Souls game in terms of character builds. But mechanically it fails so frequently it causes this bubbling hatred to build up in your gut to the point you start to loath it. After that bubbling subsides you forget why you hated it in the first place and jump back in.
 

Kudo

Member
Well I guess if you compare it to Bloodborne every game is bad.
Don't do that to yourself though, just enjoy them for what they are.
 

Emedan

Member
that sucks was my goty for 2014 plus thevanilla version is the best one... to play... i loooooved BB as well... but ds2 s the best souls game.. its also the BEST pvp souls game even better than BB the bell system sucked ass...

This is just wrong.

I for the life of me can't understand how anyone could think DS2 is the best souls game. It's an alright game, but that's a far cry from DS1 which might be one of the greatest games ever made. I haven't played a game my whole life as well designed as DS1 is, it has flaws naturally but come on, it's brilliant - everything that made DS1 brilliant is lacking in DS2.

Bloodborne is a way better designed game than DS2 and comes extremely close to DS1, but not even that can top it. This is not even opinion, DS1 is factually a better designed game than DS2.
 
It's not. Certain vocal members of GAF have created this myth that the game is bad. Things couldn't be more wrong. I personally like DS2 better than Bloodborne. As a game Dark Souls 2 is better. As an immersive experience Bloodborne wins.

It is very jarring when you come from Bloodborne and you start playing DS2. Everything feels slow as shit. You think the animations are fucked, etc. However, that is the same experience I've had with every new "Souls" game. Try going from DS1 to Demon's Souls and it just as jarring.

After you get used to the mechanics, and you understand the Adaptability stat and how it works, the game comes into it's own. Yeah the bosses are rehashes of old ones, but so are the ones in Bloodborne. When it comes to variety and just sheer amount of content, DS2 wins hands down. Also the DLC is amazing.

Now let's be honest, the game has flaws. You never really feel scared, or immersed. There is no Sen's Fortress. There is no sense of dread. The music could be better. But to me Bloodborne didn't deliver on a lot of things.

So no, DS2 isn't bad. It is still an amazing game. If you want the best of the best then go back and play DS1 and Demon's Souls.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Holy shit I don't remember it being that bad o_O

That's because that video is what it's like to play with someone with horrible ping. That's why you turn Regional on for online, else you'll get that shit show there if you connect across continents
 
Majula feels like a place you go when you've died, and the music there is perfect in every sense that something can be perfect.

The rest of the game falls short of this perfection, but it's still pretty awesome. Put Majula into Dark Souls 1, though, and now we're talking!
 

Kite777

Neo Member
I take an elevator up to a volcanic crater? Deal breaker.

I know it's dumb but all they had to do was make the elevator go down and it wouldn't be so jarring. I hate that "you don't know how far you're actually traveling" lore excuse because it's dumb and not really explained in the game.
 

Nerokis

Member
"thats your fault for not having your ADP at 73 by the time you hit Iron Keep" [/ds2apologist]

Considering that GIF has been posted a ridiculous amount of times since DS2's release, I would hope to see a better comeback than that from a DS2 apologist.

It's kind of amazing how much currency a narrow range of GIFs and videos (Smelter Demon GIF, Matt's review, etc.) have managed to have in these discussions. DS2's basic combat doesn't have the incredible precision and consistency of the other games, but none of them would look especially good if you looked at them through the lens of GIFs selectively chosen to showcase their jankiness. It doesn't at all capture my experience, which is that I can go from encounter to encounter, generally the game will reliably respond to whatever I do, and I can trust what the game is showing me on the screen. (Keep in mind I almost never PvP, but this is still mostly true in terms of coop, with the occasional annoying damage delay from my attacks.)

There are too many "okay, what happened there?" moments in comparison to something like Dark Souls, but combat is smooth the vast majority of the time. Of course you never see GIFs of the game working as expected.
 

legacyzero

Banned
I have trouble calling it bad. I just think DS1 set the bar so hi, that DS2 didnt stand a chance to clear it.

Then Bloodborne happened.
 
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