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This "I'm a progressive but if Hillary is the nominee, I'm not voting" shit is stale

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I could survive a Trump presidency but it seems awfully selfish to go that route given you'd be throwing the LGBT community and most minorities under the bus. Especially as its pure speculation about any attitude or political shifts that happen afterwards.
I feel the same about Clinton though. I feel like I'd be throwing the LGBTs, minorities, you, me and the entire rest of the country under a bus. The bus might be so big that a majority of Americans don't even realize they're under it until it's too late.

All I can say in favor of Clinton is that there's a chance I'm wrong about her. I hope to the god that I don't believe in that I am wrong about her.
 

grumble

Member
I really don't get the argument against free-trade. Economists disagree on a whole lot of shit, but basically all of them agree that free-trade is a good thing. Protectionism just protects a small segment of the economy and a few jobs and the expense of the entire economy and the average citizen who now has to pay more to buy an inferior and more expensive product. The long term consequences of this are not good.

Things aren't that simple. It's very economics 101. While in models it should increase the net wealth of both nations, the increase doesn't occur in equal measure to each citizen of both nations. It is very possible for the benefits to accrue to an elite while the harms accrue to the masses.

It's also complicated due to second order effects. Network theory shows that as the middle class deteriorates, there is a point where the economy collapses. Supply side economics only looks at half the picture.

I am not against free trade - between the 50s and now it's dramatically improved our quality of life. That isn't necessarily true going forward and we should have a reasoned discussion about that.
 

Fularu

Banned
Hum, quick question, are blank votes tallied in the US?

If they follow the international standard, they're counted as invalid votes. You have voted, but your vote "won't count"

It's a know value though, most systems should be accounting for it (because you need to be able to balance the number of people who voted with the bumber of votes in your box)
 

lenovox1

Member
I feel the same about Clinton though. I feel like I'd be throwing the LGBTs, minorities, you, me and the entire rest of the country under a bus. The bus might be so big that a majority of Americans don't even realize they're under it until it's too late.

All I can say in favor of Clinton is that there's a chance I'm wrong about her. I hope to the god that I don't believe in that I am wrong about her.

*Sigh*

Even if you feel that Clinton is an opportunistic lying flip flop floozy who only says things that make her look good with the public, she backs up what she says with action.* She doesn't just say she's a liberal and then sits on her ass and does nothing from her position.

*See her Congressional voting record and her global LGBT and women advocacy as Secratary of State.
 

Piecake

Member
Things aren't that simple. It's very economics 101. While in models it should increase the net wealth of both nations, the increase doesn't occur in equal measure to each citizen of both nations. It is very possible for the benefits to accrue to an elite while the harms accrue to the masses

It's also complicated due to second order effects. Network theory shows that as the middle class deteriorates, there is a point where the economy collapses. Supply side economics only looks at half the picture.

I am not against free trade - between the 50s and now it's dramatically improved our quality of life. That isn't necessarily true going forward and we should have a reasoned discussion about that.

This is an argument for a re-distributive tax policy, not an argument against free-trade. The negative consequences of protectionism outweighs its positives while you can mitigate potential free-trade negatives with a more re-distributive tax policy.

And this whole economics 101 BS is incredibly condescending. Just because I didn't fully explain all of the pluses and minuses of free trade on a message board does not mean that I don't understand it is a more complicated issue. That really doesn't change the fact though that the vast majority of Economists favor free trade.
 

rjinaz

Member
*Sigh*

Even if you feel that Clinton is an opportunistic lying flip flop floozy who only says things that make her look good with the public, she backs up what she says with action.* She doesn't just say she's a liberal and then sits on her ass and does nothing from her position.

*See her Congressional voting record and her global LGBT and women advocacy as Secratary of State.

Pretty much. You don't have to think she is fantastic. In fact, you can think she is pretty awful if you want. But she is a Democrat and she WILL keep things going in the left direction, and at worse, keep things the same as they are now. Trump? Shuddering even imaging what he will do, it's anybody's guess really. The guy only answers to Trump, not the people.
 

akira28

Member
the point I was trying to make is that it didn't go through. the system slowed that change

well an all gop system would be running off the rails. and maybe that's the point. Trump is Casey Jones riding the crazy train. We the people will just become socialists and establish a barter society.
 

ucdawg12

Member
This is an argument for a re-distributive tax policy, not an argument against free-trade. The negative consequences of protectionism outweighs its positives while you can mitigate potential free-trade negatives with a more re-distributive tax policy.

And this whole economics 101 BS is incredibly condescending. Just because I didn't fully explain all of the pluses and minuses of free trade on a message board does not mean that I don't understand it is a more complicated issue. That really doesn't change the fact though that the vast majority of Economists favor free trade.

I would really like to see more of an equal effort to fairly distribute the gains from trade in tandem with future trade agreements before I am willing support more of them. There is no urgency or even recognition that this is needed, let alone the will to do it.
 

beef3483

Member
It's a persons right not to vote. I will vote, but I'm just going to write-in Bernie. Stop worrying about what other people do, and take care of your own business. If you ask me, what's more annoying is people pressuring others about their voting decisions.
 
Pretty much. You don't have to think she is fantastic. In fact, you can think she is pretty awful if you want. But she is a Democrat and she WILL keep things going in the left direction, and at worse, keep things the same as they are now. Trump? Shuddering even imaging what he will do, it's anybody's guess really. The guy only answers to Trump, not the people.

No man, the last couple decades were all just part of her master plan to get elected as a democratic president and then finally let loose her true True Conservative Form and repeal gay marriage.
 
You should read the book I linked since he argues very persuasively that that started happening under Eisenhower, not Reagan. And the groundwork for that change started well before that.

Perhaps it started under Eisenhower, to some extent, but its metastasization increased a great deal under Reagan.

And Kissingerian Realpolitk was a sharp break with the idealistic cold war interventionist policy since Truman, so I am not sure why its return is a radical change when idealist interventionistism has been a part of our foreign policy options since forever.

It's not JUST the interventionism, I misspoke because I can't type quickly on my phone, so much as it is the whole ethos of America needing to exert its military might as a moral force for democracy and freedom across the world. Prior to Reagan, the U.S. certainly intervened in a number of situations, most notably Vietnam, but one can at least say that there was geopolitical triangulation happening, given the U.S. desired to check the expansion of Communist imperialism. Reagan not only prolonged the Cold War by reigniting Soviet hardliners, but began the neoconservative spiral that eventually birthed the Iraq War - which, while not a RADICAL break from American interventionist policy with respect to their oil supply, was sold to the public on the grounds that Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction that could eventually be used against America and its allies, and that we therefore had a moral duty to overthrow him and install a democratic government, democracy being construed as an institution inherently friendly to American interests. Had Reagan not turned the ideals of American exceptionalism and moral destiny up a number of notches, I don't think the public could have been so readily snookered into what was essentially a second Vietnam War on such spurious philosophical and practical grounds.

Again, I am not saying that nothing changed, but how is this a radical change when a party gains control of the white house and congress for the first time in a while and starts implementing the ideas that they have been advocating for a long long time? Sure, the leftward burst was discredited, but that was a product of it being discredited due to a shit economy and good propaganda by the Republicans, but is that really radical?

I don't disagree that Reagan was just the conduit of ideas that had been in the ether for a long time, but he not only implemented them, he instituted a rightward shift of the national political conversation so complete that even the opposing political party is limited in the kinds of changes it can propose because so much of his philosophy has seeped into the political unconscious of so many. He also is the one that shepherded the Republican Party away from responsible curtailing of the federal welfare state to becoming a party that both kept the welfare state in place while drastically cutting taxes and increasing military spending, knowing that this would endear them to voters (the dreaded "two Santa Clauses" theory) while deluding themselves into buying into the movement conservative bullshit that tax cuts and deregulation would drive prosperity and pay for themselves. Neither turned out to be true, and Reaganomics are thoroughly discredited, but they still form the basic basis of the economic policy of one of the two main political parties of the country.

I certainly don't think so considering that social security, medicare, and medicaid and all the hallmarks of the welfare state still remained, even if they were a bit weakened. Did Reagan put on the breaks for more? of course, but how the hell is that a radical change? It certainly is change, but it is not like the structure or services of the government fundamentally changed.

Reagan certainly was not a RADICAL change, in the sense that he didn't rewrite the Constitution or anything like that, but I'd say the changes he brought to the country's political culture were certainly radical. It wasn't called the "Reagan Revolution" for nothing.
 
Especially as its pure speculation about any attitude or political shifts that happen afterwards.


Yeah, what's interesting to me is that a lot of people seem to be attached to a "don't vote" strategy, but most aren't able to explain it; it makes me wonder if they have self-examined the strategy and found it to be effective, or if they chose not to vote first and later chose to call it a "strategy".

As far as I can see, the "don't vote" strategy hasn't worked so far.

People age 18-34 vote at around 23% in mid-term elections. People age 65+ vote at around 60% in mid-terms. What that means is that even though there are many more people in the younger group, there are many more voters in the older group.

And this difference has existed forever. It's not like people used to vote and gave up. They never voted. The country as a whole has never tried the "voting" strategy. So my argument is, why not? Not voting hasn't been spectacularly successful (except for the politicians who have historically had great job security).

The argument that we shouldn't talk about the strategies of voting is silly. I'm not shaming anyone. And again, maybe the "not voting" strategy is just about to pay off. If someone makes that argument I'll listen and maybe even change my mind if the argument is strong. But right now it seems like a massive, sustained voting effort, sweeping Republicans out of office, with people like Hillary in the White House and Warren in the senate, would be more effective both immediately and for the future. Voting is also something we haven't tried yet, while not voting is the status quo.
 

rjinaz

Member
No man, the last couple decades were all just part of her master plan to get elected as a democratic president and then finally let loose her true True Conservative Form and repeal gay marriage.

Damn,it all makes sense now. The Republican party falls to shambles, and Hillary is there to pick up the broken pieces and mold it into her own vision of what the party should be, probably in her own self-interest with more corporate interests than ever.. Hawkish,genius,and devious. It's all true. 20 years from now, Republican's will be all about the Hillary and saying Reagan who?
 

HariKari

Member
Damn,it all makes sense now. The Republican party falls to shambles, and Hillary is there to pick up the broken pieces and mold it into her own vision of what the party should be, probably in her own self-interest with more corporate interests than ever.. Hawkish,genius,and devious. It's all true.

The suggestion that she'll move right back to the center isn't outlandish. It doesn't need to be responded to in a childish manner.
 
Stop worrying about what other people do

That's what politics are though. Worrying about what other people do. Worrying about people, period. Worrying about people using/misusing the political system to make things worse for people is why people get politically active. To prevent that. To instead make things better.

It might be inconvenient to you to hear that your symbolic vote isn't going to have the desired effect you think it will when you make your grand gesture with it. Is the inconvenience you feel worth more than the inconvenience the country will feel when votes that could be counted towards preventing the country regressing at an alarming rate of speed with a notoriously poor decision-maker in charge (who happens to also be racist, xenophobic, and misogynistic as well) are instead spent on this empty symbolism?

If so, proceed. But at least be honest about the decision you made, and the nature of the protestation in response. You decided that "At least I didn't compromise" is worth more than "At least I tried to help," and you're hearing about how weird and counterproductive that is.
 
Right back to the snake in the grass or the lion. You can get real close to the snake without ever realizing what's about to happen. I'll say if there was a forced vote I'd choose Clinton over Trump and that's about the best I can do lol.

Let's say that Hillary does harm to LGBT people. Let's quantify it. Hillary causes a net harm of 1 to LGBT people. Trump, meanwhile, does a net 10. Remember how I talked about LGBT people having to settle? Well, Hillary's an example of that, at least in the scenario where we assume that she will ultimately harm LGBT people. She may not be the best candidate for the advancement of LGBT rights, but she's preferable to a candidate who panders to a base that hates LGBT people and who may set back LGBT rights by decades. Again, people are just asking you to be honest and acknowledge what can happen if choose not to vote - it can mean that Trump wins, and the people with the most to lose, lose. You speak of wanting this to be what causes politics to change, but you need to consider how changing it through destruction and chaos can hurt, even kill, people. No one can force you to vote for Hillary, but we can make the point that abstention is a privilege, not a right, that many do not have access to.
 

Piecake

Member
Perhaps it started under Eisenhower, to some extent, but its metastasization increased a great deal under Reagan.

The author argues that it Metastasized as an Republican only thing under Nixon when the One Nation Under God movement split, and became the sole providence of the Republican party. I even won't disagree with you that it became a bigger thing under Reagan, but with so much history behind it I am not quite sure how you can call that a revolution. That seems like slow, gradual change to me, but perhaps we just have different definitions of radical change.


It's not JUST the interventionism, I misspoke because I can't type quickly on my phone, so much as it is the whole ethos of America needing to exert its military might as a moral force for democracy and freedom across the world. Prior to Reagan, the U.S. certainly intervened in a number of situations, most notably Vietnam, but one can at least say that there was geopolitical triangulation happening, given the U.S. desired to check the expansion of Communist imperialism. Reagan not only prolonged the Cold War by reigniting Soviet hardliners, but began the neoconservative spiral that eventually birthed the Iraq War - which, while not a RADICAL break from American interventionist policy with respect to their oil supply, was sold to the public on the grounds that Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction that could eventually be used against America and its allies, and that we therefore had a moral duty to overthrow him and install a democratic government, democracy being construed as an institution inherently friendly to American interests. Had Reagan not turned the ideals of American exceptionalism and moral destiny up a number of notches, I don't think the public could have been so readily snookered into what was essentially a second Vietnam War on such spurious philosophical and practical grounds.

I think the Cold War was very ideological and one of the main reasons for the fight against Communism was to stop its spread and save Democracy and Freedom around the World.

As for the Iraq War, I assumed that he was talking about the first one, Desert Storm, because he was talking about the first Bush in his post. I would also argue that you can consider that war pretty a fairly realpolitik decision.

And again, an ideology driven foreign policy that wants to spread democracy throughout the world is nothing new or radical to our history. That was one of the main arguments for the Mexican War, that we should attack Mexico and conquer this new territory to spread democracy and freedom. Same with a lot of our interventions in Latin America during the 19th Century. So I don't think Iraq War 2 is a radical change because that is a strain of foreign policy thinking that has been present in our nation since its founding. The Jeffersonian Republicans were all about helping France and supporting them in their wars to support and spread Democracy and freedom. Luckily, Washington and Adams took a more realpolitik approach.

I don't disagree that Reagan was just the conduit of ideas that had been in the ether for a long time, but he not only implemented them, he instituted a rightward shift of the national political conversation so complete that even the opposing political party is limited in the kinds of changes it can propose because so much of his philosophy has seeped into the political unconscious of so many. He also is the one that shepherded the Republican Party away from responsible curtailing of the federal welfare state to becoming a party that both kept the welfare state in place while drastically cutting taxes and increasing military spending, knowing that this would endear them to voters (the dreaded "two Santa Clauses" theory) while deluding themselves into buying into the movement conservative bullshit that tax cuts and deregulation would drive prosperity and pay for themselves. Neither turned out to be true, and Reaganomics are thoroughly discredited, but they still form the basic basis of the economic policy of one of the two main political parties of the country.

I think we might just have different conceptions of radical change because the Right have used the same sort of rhetoric to discredit the welfare state since the New Deal. It simply worked in the 1980s because the economic downturn discredited the left while the boom in the 80s 'supported' reaganomics.

I would agree that voodoo economics was a change, but again, maybe we disagree on definition because I woundn't consider that a huge change.

Reagan certainly was not a RADICAL change, in the sense that he didn't rewrite the Constitution or anything like that, but I'd say the changes he brought to the country's political culture were certainly radical. It wasn't called the "Reagan Revolution" for nothing.

I think Reagan was simply a culmination in the reaction against the New Deal that the Right has been working towards for a long long time. This shift in the political culture was greatly helped out by the Cold War anti-communism and the economic cycle. Again, I wouldn't consider this revolutionary because it all it really is a shift back to the values and ideals before the New Deal taking a more prominent role.

As for the Reagan Revolution, I think people like to overuse terms like that and the vast majority of people don't pay attention to gradual historical change. Again, we might just have a different definition of what constitutes a radical change.
 
Progress isn't limited only to economic inequality.

I think we have certainly improved access to health care and improved LBGT rights as well. Isnt that progress?

Economic inequality is arguably the single most important issue facing the developed world today. It affects literally everyone.
 
I don't think voting for Trump over Hillary is necessarily at odds with a progressive mindset if free trade is singularly the pivotal issue for you. On this, Trump has far more credibility than anybody else in the field save Sanders. Regardless of my negative feelings for her as a person and as a candidate, I have no qualms voting for Clinton even though she will likely pass TPP/TTIP and keep the US committed to its allies abroad. That makes her more appealing to me because I agree with that agenda.

I believe in America's global outlook. I think it makes the world a better place in the long-run, and frankly it benefits my socioeconomic class. However, I wouldn't hold this position if I came from small-town USA in the Rust Belt. The unfortunate reality is that economic transformation has a severe human cost. I don't begrudge those left behind for fighting back.
 

Azzanadra

Member
I think this is the mindset some people have: People like Clinton allow for people like Trump to exist (basically under Clinton, there will definitely be more Trump-likes), and Trump is either going get assassinated or impeached within his first year of presidency. Therefore, electing Clinton only delays the inevitable collapse and reform of America. Trump will only hasten the process to real change and revolution.
 

Tesseract

Banned
I think this is the mindset some people have: People like Clinton allow for people like Trump to exist (basically under Clinton, there will definitely be more Trump-likes), and Trump is either going get assassinated or impeached within his first year of presidency. Therefore, electing Clinton only delays the inevitable collapse and reform of America. Trump will only hasten the process to real change and revolution.

this is tea party talk, dewd

Earl_Grey_tea_hot.jpg
 
I get the point that you're trying to highlight your efforts, but it doesn't really answer the question at all. I don't get why you wouldn't vote for Hilary, who actually has a shot at choosing the SCOTUS you claim to care about.

Writing letters to the mayor, while highly admirable, doesn't have anything to do with the importance of deciding who will appoint SCOTUS.

Nice edit though. But your pettiness is pretty transparent. How you think to pat yourself on the back as you throw change at the homeless person on the street and go "See, I helped."

Done with thread though. All arguments have already been argued. I can't be refreshing my phone every 5 minutes for this shit.

Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.
 
I think this is the mindset some people have: People like Clinton allow for people like Trump to exist (basically under Clinton, there will definitely be more Trump-likes), and Trump is either going get assassinated or impeached within his first year of presidency. Therefore, electing Clinton only delays the inevitable collapse and reform of America. Trump will only hasten the process to real change and revolution.

I heard someone say something similar. If Trump gets elected, we could have him kicked out of the white house in 4 years, whereas we'd have to suffer Hilary for 8.
 

benjipwns

Banned
My analogy for abstaining:

Person A is pushing Person B over the edge of a cliff.

You, Person C, have three choices.

1) You help Person B push Person A.
2) You watch and do nothing.
3) You help Person A push Person B.

Are all three choices essentially different?

No. Now choice 2) & choice 3) are essentially the same. So, you have two choices, not three.
I very much enjoy the framing here where the two choices are between who to commit violence against.
 
Let's say that Hillary does harm to LGBT people. Let's quantify it. Hillary causes a net harm of 1 to LGBT people. Trump, meanwhile, does a net 10. Remember how I talked about LGBT people having to settle? Well, Hillary's an example of that, at least in the scenario where we assume that she will ultimately harm LGBT people. She may not be the best candidate for the advancement of LGBT rights, but she's preferable to a candidate who panders to a base that hates LGBT people and who may set back LGBT rights by decades. Again, people are just asking you to be honest and acknowledge what can happen if choose not to vote - it can mean that Trump wins, and the people with the most to lose, lose. You speak of wanting this to be what causes politics to change, but you need to consider how changing it through destruction and chaos can hurt, even kill, people. No one can force you to vote for Hillary, but we can make the point that abstention is a privilege, not a right, that many do not have access to.

What is Hillary's recent record on gay rights? I've always assumed that she was for gay marriage in recent times, but I know her husband had a hand in signing the defense of marriage act back in the 1990's. I always took Bill Clinton to be somewhat indifferent to the issue altogether. He wasn't necessarily gung ho for gay rights, but he wasn't the ideological screed that Pat Buchanan was.

Whatever the case may be, I seriously hope that there isn't a sizable number of people within the gay community pondering the idea of either voting for Trump or sitting this one out.
 

benjipwns

Banned
What is Hillary's recent record on gay rights? I've always assumed that she was for gay marriage in recent times, but I know her husband had a hand in signing the defense of marriage act back in the 1990's. I always took Bill Clinton to be somewhat indifferent to the issue altogether. He wasn't necessarily gung ho for gay rights, but he wasn't the ideological screed that Pat Buchanan was.

Whatever the case may be, I seriously hope that there isn't a sizable number of people within the gay community pondering the idea of either voting for Trump or sitting this one out.
Hillary was personally opposed to same-sex marriage until 2013.

Trump was generally in favor of or not opposed to same sex marriage until 2011. (Though he has said since the SC ruled he won't fight it.)

You may note that these dates are close to Presidential races the person had interest in, and I assure you they are not in anyway related.

I have an inkling that Trump, in reality, is closer to Hillary than the GOP in terms of cultural sexual issues. And I doubt either will do much to turn back the tide on gay rights. Neither Obama nor Bush could after all.
 
Hillary was personally opposed to same-sex marriage until 2013.

Trump was generally in favor of or not opposed to same sex marriage until 2011. (Though he has said since the SC ruled he won't fight it.)

You may note that these dates are close to Presidential races the person had interest in, and I assure you they are not in anyway related.

I have an inkling that Trump, in reality, is closer to Hillary than the GOP in terms of cultural sexual issues. And I doubt either will do much to turn back the tide on gay rights. Neither Obama nor Bush could after all.
Why? Do you believe Trump would nominate liberal or moderate USSC judges?
 

benjipwns

Banned
Why? Do you believe Trump would nominate liberal or moderate USSC judges?
I don't think it will matter. Some things are just too hard to roll back when they're culturally accepted.

Besides, Romer, Lawrence, Windsor and Obergefell all happened under a "conservative"/Republican dominated Court. Which helps my optimism.
 
I think this is the mindset some people have: People like Clinton allow for people like Trump to exist (basically under Clinton, there will definitely be more Trump-likes), and Trump is either going get assassinated or impeached within his first year of presidency. Therefore, electing Clinton only delays the inevitable collapse and reform of America. Trump will only hasten the process to real change and revolution.

1. People said that Obama was going to get assassinated.

2. That's a rather simplistic perspective - sure, Trump getting nominated could hasten "real change and revolution", but at at what cost, and to whom?
 

The Flop

Banned
The best thing about this election cycle is that it showed at least on one side that "the good old boy" mentality won't fly anymore.

Whereas the DEMs seem to still have their candidate pre picked, and HRC dodged another "Change" candidate.
 
The best thing about this election cycle is that it showed at least on one side that "the good old boy" mentality won't fly anymore.

Whereas the DEMs seem to still have their candidate pre picked, and HRC dodged another "Change" candidate.

Quite, and as reflected by this very thread the one establishment candidate is afraid of a mutiny in the ranks. It's not a big chance, but it exists.

The one thing Bernie is 100% right is that it's all about the money. Corporate America is quite willing to let social and rights issues go whichever way, but the flow of money needs to stay as it is. The capitalist ideology of accelerating growth can at this point be only supported by cannibalizing the lower and middle classes.
 
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