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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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They could do a super stripped down version of Windows I guess which only has the Windows Store and locks everything else out. That could work and add extra value.

But then you have to worry about things like viruses, it’s just too messy imo.
 

Darklor01

Might need to stop sniffing glue
If you didn't know, before E3 2019, it was a "common sense" to think that next Xbox will be the most powerful because 2 SKU strategy, one the most expensive one and one the cheapest, PS5 somewhere in the middle. And like that, it was, in general, accepted. I didn't saw anyone ( i dunno, maybe i've missed some comments ) on PS side which claimed that PS5 will be more powerful - before E3. It was a blasphemy to even think that PS5 will be the most powerful one. But after Reiner's tweet, everything changed......

I’m sorry, I never thought it was common sense. In fact, I assumed nothing.
 

joe_zazen

Member
Why would a 3rd party dev know the size of the chips though?

Relative sizes based on extrapolation of power and feature set? But they wouldn’t have exact numbers.

I am riding the dual train, with the OS seeing the pair as a single gpu. sony rolled the dice with either a 2X36 CU chiplet design, or increaed cu count in a single chip, and moved to 7nm+. Cerny the gambler.

Not everybody but there are a group there that is really ugly.

mod approved bullies.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
TF this, TF that.

It won't just be about TF's next gen. There will be a ton of other customization's that won't tell the tale on the surface. Much more so than last gen's "safe but hearty" first entry into the x86-64 platform / ecosystem. Some fanatics want to cling to a TF number because it is a simpleton way to troll. It will not be the end all be all, but they will shout from the rooftops like it is.
 

Disco_

Member
If only Tflops actually mattered for gaming performance and not used as marketing spin. We might as well go back to Bit performance but that's why everyone compares FPS performance between graphic cards and not TFlops
If Tflops mattered, NVIDIA would be using the same formula as AMD rather than do what they do now and undersell their Tf count.
 

semicool

Banned
TF this, TF that.

It won't just be about TF's next gen. There will be a ton of other customization's that won't tell the tale on the surface. Much more so than last gen's "safe but hearty" first entry into the x86-64 platform / ecosystem. Some fanatics want to cling to a TF number because it is a simpleton way to troll. It will not be the end all be all, but they will shout from the rooftops like it is.
No, but it'll turn into fps with a designated resolution. Which TFs for the same RDNA architecture is indicative of, at least preliminarily...ie Xbox xsx TFs vs PS5...pretty valid comparison though their customizing of RDNa will be different and the other outlier being the dedicated(They both have different hardware accelerated Ray tracing and it remains to be seen if they're both DEDICATED Ray tracing hardware acceleration) Ray tracing acceleration implementation.
 
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saintjules

Member
Agreed. So no truly next gen games from them for the next two years. Open season for Sony. Terrible message.

Yea, Sony has to be watering at the mouth if they have even 1-2 PS5 exclusives on the ready at launch. And according to Schreier, they have just that. Good start if they pull it off.

"I've heard some of the PS5 launch titles will be PS5-only. Some of the stuff I've heard about is PS5 only," Schreier said in a recent Kotaku Splitscreen podcast.
 
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Doesn't it contradict Osirisblack leak though?

Kind of. He said they're doing really well in terms of games, but didn't specify if they were next-gen exclusives.

Granted, this is probably a lose-lose situation for MS. If they made all their games next-gen exclusive they'd be accused of abandoning current-gen. But now you have the opposite issue, people saying they may not have any genuine next-gen exclusives (some, even myself, are wondering if there will be any XSX-exclusives even if they are timed for a year or two, before getting PC releases and Xcloud support).

I think MS doesn't want the issue PS4 had at the start; the first year or two were pretty rough for PS4 exclusives, outside of Infamous which was generally okay. Killzone was meh, Knack was meh, Driveclub was delayed then eventually came out and was "okay" (improved much better later on), Order 1886 was bad. Cross-gen games and early remasters like TLOU plus superior 3rd party games were what really drove PS4 growth early on.

Wasn't until Bloodborne when the consistency in 1st-party quality games actually started happening, that's a general consensus. So roughly two years after launch. And I remember some people (myself included) were wondering if Sony had spread themselves too thin because games like GT6 should've probably been PS4 launch titles or at least cross-gen, this stuff was said right around launch time for the system too.

MS probably wants to avoid that problem for XSX and at least by making titles cross-gen out the gate they won't have a GT6 type of problem. But now they may have a situation where even if XSX is more powerful they might not have a next-gen game that shows that power off until a year after launch (it's usually 1st-party games that really show off hardware power). There've been rumors Sony is running behind on PS5 launch titles too but they have at least a couple of studios who should have something ready for launch: Guerrilla and Polyphony. Especially Polyphony, and Polyphony knows how to make "weaker" hardware really sing, just look at their track record with PS2 GT games. Arguably the best looking racers that gen, yet on hardware technically weaker than GC and Xbox.

...That said I'm just assuming whatever next GT and Horizon game are coming will be actual next-gen exclusives for PS5; Sony does like supporting their older platforms for at least a couple of years after the new system launches, so those games could be cross-gen as well. But MS could still have the problem of lacking next-gen exclusives that really push the XSX unless they stagger deployment between XSX/Lockhart > Xcloud (for streaming to other devices) by a year or two, at least for the marquee titles. And they need to make sure some of those games are developed with XSX as the lead platform; Lockhart would just get the downscaled versions. They can't ALL be the other way around, otherwise XSX is nothing more than a next-gen Xbox One X.
 
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Nickolaidas

Member
OsirisBlack has me intrigued.

On one hand, he says that MS is killing it, then he says a title announced as a multiplat will be an exclusive, and not for PC (at first). This immediately means it's not for Xbox, since MS is now releasing all first party games at both Windos AND Xbox. So it's a PS5 game.

As for the (possibly JP) dev coming to MS, I am really curious to see who it is.

Anyway, since I invest in both consoles, I will undoubtedly enjoy all those games, eventually.
 

demigod

Member
Yea, Sony has to be watering at the mouth if they have even 1-2 PS5 exclusives on the ready at launch. And according to Schreier, they have just that. Good start if they pull it off.

You don't really need Jason for that, Sony has had exclusive console launch titles the past 2 gen. MS is now more concerned with gaas so i'm not surprised that they won't have exclusives for their new boxes.
 

HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
I don’t like this concept. What’s my incentive to drop my money on a series X when I can keep my current Xbox and buy a PS5 to get all exclusives?

Maybe it’s a great plan in the long run for software sales, but a terrible way to hype a “new” console if it’s just going to play like another mid-gen refresh.

Just my 2 cents but they don't care if they sell you a new Xbox or not if you are happy with the current Xbox as long as you keep throwing money into their software and services.
 

RasAlGhoul

Member
OsirisBlack has me intrigued.

On one hand, he says that MS is killing it, then he says a title announced as a multiplat will be an exclusive, and not for PC (at first). This immediately means it's not for Xbox, since MS is now releasing all first party games at both Windos AND Xbox. So it's a PS5 game.

As for the (possibly JP) dev coming to MS, I am really curious to see who it is.

Anyway, since I invest in both consoles, I will undoubtedly enjoy all those games, eventually.
A third party game, that is moneyhatted into an exclusive is still a third party game. It’s not suddenly first party.
 

PaNaMa

Banned
Now I understand why Sony promotes the speed of PS5, 1 Tflop more power is little but the differences in charging times will be important.

So I have a Xbox 1X with a Samsung SSD drive connected to it. My load times are already a minute+ faster than my friends loading into games like Destiny, Battlefield, PuBG etc.
So, I'm not impressed by this guy's statement

** meant to quote the video posted there by TeamGhobad
 
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“The gaymes aren’t goin to be next gen if they aren’t exclusive herp derp!”

Yup, just look at Flight Simulator. It looks atrocious!
 
Sega isnt only studio. Its company which develop games and publish them.

I dont know why they want Japanese developer while they not exist in Japanese market. They didnt work with Japanese devs.
If Microsoft is buying any Japanese studio, it's likely a small studio who would like to have a large publisher who has the money and resources for localization, similar to the PSO2 situation. Falcom would be one such example, though I doubt MS will buy Falcom as the studio wants to release their games on Playstation and PC.
 

Nickolaidas

Member
“The gaymes aren’t goin to be next gen if they aren’t exclusive herp derp!”

Yup, just look at Flight Simulator. It looks atrocious!
Indeed. People seem to forget that this gen had quite a few games with jaw-dropping visuals as it is. I think next-gen is going to be more about visual effects (i.e. UE4 storm video) and native 4K resolutions.
 
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This is just pure speculation on my part but i think both machines use the base APU so both are on equal footing regarding raw power.

The difference between them will be things like SSD, RAM setup and Hardware Ray Tracing. I suspect these areas are where you will see one slower or faster than the other.

This would also line up with why many insiders saying that the differences are very minimal between them and why the TF numbers are meaningless.

I may be wrong here but this is my gut feeling with these next consoles.
This is about the only thing that makes sense right now
 
Indeed. People seem to forget that this gen had quite a few games with jaw-dropping visuals as it is. I think next-gen is going to be more about visual effects (i.e. UE4 storm video) and native 4K resolutions.

There’s loads of ways to scale a game across 2 generations of hardware. 30fps vs 60fps. Higher resolution. Better graphics. Old engine vs new engine. People act like next gen consoles are some kind of alien technology 😂

That’s not to say that a next gen exclusive can’t achieve more when it is directly targeted to specific hardware. But pushing the systems in the first year or so never really happens anyway, by both 1st and 3rd party. It’s not usually until the 2nd and 3rd wave of games start coming out. By which time the install base is large enough to cut ties with the old gen for good.
 
You don't really need Jason for that, Sony has had exclusive console launch titles the past 2 gen. MS is now more concerned with gaas so i'm not surprised that they won't have exclusives for their new boxes.

He hasn't come right out and said they won't have exclusives




From what's being said here, it sounds like MS wants to support OG XBO and X with games in the future through things like Xcloud, which kinda makes sense.

For cross-gen games early on, I wonder if there are going to be differences in game modes, campaigns, certain gameplay features etc. in addition to visual differences. IIRC there were differences like that with certain XBO/PS4 cross-gen titles early on, and especially with some PS2/Xbox/GC and 360 cross-gen titles in the first year or two of that gen.

All that said, I don't know if this was really something worth Booty saying. People could've simply assumed this would've happened anyway or saw it happen in action, but the messaging should be on 1st-party content and/or exclusive 3rd-party games pushing the XSX for launch and the launch window.

Sony's going to have a lot of cross-gen games themselves (TLOU2 most likely getting a PS5 update, Ghosts very likely, possible Death Stranding PS5 re-release or "PS5 mode" download patch, 3rd-party cross-gen games etc.), but they probably aren't just going to come right out and say that, hopefully.
 
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saintjules

Member
You don't really need Jason for that, Sony has had exclusive console launch titles the past 2 gen. MS is now more concerned with gaas so i'm not surprised that they won't have exclusives for their new boxes.

You're right, you don't. His comment was for added measure in case.
 
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demigod

Member
He hasn't come right out and said they won't have exclusives


From what's being said here, it sounds like MS wants to support OG XBO and X with games in the future through things like Xcloud, which kinda makes sense.

For cross-gen games early on, I wonder if there are going to be differences in game modes, campaigns, certain gameplay features etc. in addition to visual differences. IIRC there were differences like that with certain XBO/PS4 cross-gen titles early on, and especially with some PS2/Xbox/GC and 360 cross-gen titles in the first year or two of that gen.

Why are you quoting me with that dude? I'm not clicking on that, dude is clickbait. Are you saying Matt Booty hasn't came out saying they won't have exclusives?
 
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Marlenus

Member
Yes I am actually. Note that Van Gogh is notebook APU, likely for Apple. I am not sure if its N7P or EUV, but I am pretty sure consoles are N7P.

At least Xbox judging by die size for 56CU part. I think they have to be, because they will have to have 6-7m of them come launch, and back last year they probably thought about how risky it is to move and redesign chip for 7nm EUV and 15% density improvement vs 10% TDP reduction straight by N7P, which requires no redesign and will have more then enough wafers.

Assuming those shots of the Apu are scaled and the die is roughly 405mm² let's do some playful Apu building to see what we get.

N7P is as dense as N7 so you are likely to have around 43M xtors / mm².

N7+ is a 15-20% denser, let's go on the lower end at around 16% and we get 50M xtors / mm².

On N7P that gives us roughly 17.4B transistors to play with and 20.2B on N7+.

Navi 10 is 10.3B
Zen2 is 3.9B
IO die is 2.1B
Total of 16.3B transistors.

I don't think the APU will have all 32MB of l3 cache so if we reduce that to 8MB like Renoir we can shave off around 1.8B transistors (I can show my working if you want to see it). We also don't need anywhere near all the IO in the IO die, probably only a small fraction at most so let's say we can save 1.6B xtors there as well meaning our new total is around17.4B - 3.4B = 14B.

That means we now have a budget on N7P of 3.4B transistors for more stuff. Navi 14 has 3.9B transistors fewer than Navi 10 and that difference accounts for 2x64 bit MCs, 16CUs, 32Rops, 1 SE and 8 PCIe4 lanes.

It seems to me that a 60CU (56 active) design can fit in that 400mm² die area with raytracing and an 8c zen2 die.

What do we get if it is N7+ though. Well we get to play with 6.2B xtors so what might that include. I think if it is 400mm² and N7+ we might see a 3SE design with 96 ROPs and upto 66 CUs (60 active) or maybe fewer CUs but more custom stuff or beefier RT hardware.
 
Why are you quoting me with that dude? I'm not clicking on that, dude is clickbait. Are you saying Matt Booty hasn't came out saying they won't have exclusives?

You could bother to read what was posted afterwards or parse the video for relevant information. Worth having your own critical opinion of thought on these things.

I'm just saying some people are jumping on Booty's comments as a doomsday scenario or worst-case situation when that isn't even necessary. We already know Sony will also have cross-gen games, either for upcoming releases like TLOU2 and Ghosts (either as PS5 upgrade re-releases or downloadable "PS5 upgrade" patches for those playing PS4 versions on PS5), and 3rd parties will have them as well.

So why are some people acting like Booty saying the literal equivalent of that means they have no games planned for XSX or only plan on having cross-gen games throughout? Neither company's even officially revealed their full launch or launch window lineup, it's premature to assume what the software slate is like on either front this early on.

Also just using rational thinking, if they're using XBO as an example of cross-gen, even if they said there'd be cross-gen with XBO 3-4 years down the line they obviously would be implying Xcloud as the bridge for that cross-gen support. The fact Halo Infinite is cross-gen should already cue people in that they'll have at least some cross-gen games, but it's not known if all releases in the first year will be cross-gen and even if so, in what way they'll be cross-gen (internal studio could be handling XSX versions, contracted 3rd-party could handle older versions, similar to one of the early XBO Forza Horizon games that had a 360 version too).
 

demigod

Member
You could bother to read what was posted afterwards or parse the video for relevant information. Worth having your own critical opinion of thought on these things.

I'm just saying some people are jumping on Booty's comments as a doomsday scenario or worst-case situation when that isn't even necessary. We already know Sony will also have cross-gen games, either for upcoming releases like TLOU2 and Ghosts (either as PS5 upgrade re-releases or downloadable "PS5 upgrade" patches for those playing PS4 versions on PS5), and 3rd parties will have them as well.

So why are some people acting like Booty saying the literal equivalent of that means they have no games planned for XSX or only plan on having cross-gen games throughout? Neither company's even officially revealed their full launch or launch window lineup, it's premature to assume what the software slate is like on either front this early on.

Also just using rational thinking, if they're using XBO as an example of cross-gen, even if they said there'd be cross-gen with XBO 3-4 years down the line they obviously would be implying Xcloud as the bridge for that cross-gen support. The fact Halo Infinite is cross-gen should already cue people in that they'll have at least some cross-gen games, but it's not known if all releases in the first year will be cross-gen and even if so, in what way they'll be cross-gen (internal studio could be handling XSX versions, contracted 3rd-party could handle older versions, similar to one of the early XBO Forza Horizon games that had a 360 version too).

I’m not clicking on that dude because he had a clickbait video on ps5 either in 2018 or early 2019.

And you didn’t even bother to read what i wrote hence why i skipped over what you wrote. I don’t recall Sony having cross gen titles during launch for ps3 and ps4. I’m talking about first party title.

Why don’t you go ask Matt Booty specifically why he said that?
 

Joho79

Member
One can argue if it’s a stupid decision or not to make games cross-gen. But I think it’s also stupid to assume that cross-gen games will look the same on Xbox one and series x. We all saw that games on one X looked and played superior over other consoles this gen.
 

Handy Fake

Member
I’m not clicking on that dude because he had a clickbait video on ps5 either in 2018 or early 2019.

And you didn’t even bother to read what i wrote hence why i skipped over what you wrote. I don’t recall Sony having cross gen titles during launch for ps3 and ps4. I’m talking about first party title.

Why don’t you go ask Matt Booty specifically why he said that?
A Booty call?
 

LordOfChaos

Member
If this is true - I think it is since they've had a similar conversation last year - then the PS5 could be 4 TF and people would still buy it. Almost no one is going to upgrade their console and pay 300-500€ to just play the same games they can play on their current console.

I think it would hamper adaptation for sure, but isn't this the very model the 8.5 gen consoles tried to scope?
 
I’m not clicking on that dude because he had a clickbait video on ps5 either in 2018 or early 2019.

And you didn’t even bother to read what i wrote hence why i skipped over what you wrote. I don’t recall Sony having cross gen titles during launch for ps3 and ps4. I’m talking about first party title.

Why don’t you go ask Matt Booty specifically why he said that?

Sony didn't have cross-gen 1st party? TLOU had a PS4 remaster a year or so after the PS3 release, that counts as a cross-gen game. Many third-parties had them as well. And I already said how them not having cross-gen for a lot of 1st party games kind of was a bad move as a general consensus early on, up until around Bloodborne's release. Outside of Infamous: Second Son, their 1st party titles on PS4 were either seen as average or in some cases, poor (Order 1886).

Even before the system released, many wondered why games like Gran Turismo 6 weren't at least cross-gen releases and never got cross-gen ports a year or so later on. Meanwhile PS4 exclusives they premiered at the reveal event like Dreams were way, way off (hell I basically stopped caring about that game last year when in 2013 it was one of the biggest reasons I looked forward to PS4).

Anyways, you aren't going to ever have an informed critical thought on this stuff if you only go looking for what you already want to hear. Shutting out logical points of a topic simply doesn't make any sense. I do think Booty should have simply not mentioned cross-play related plans at all right now though; anyone could've assumed cross-gen would've been a thing, but people paying attention to next-gen systems aren't really thinking about cross-gen gaming. Though it could be beneficial for multi-platform online gaming with cross-play, so that could be a reason for caring about cross-gen support I suppose.

One can argue if it’s a stupid decision or not to make games cross-gen. But I think it’s also stupid to assume that cross-gen games will look the same on Xbox one and series x. We all saw that games on one X looked and played superior over other consoles this gen.

It's a bit more than that; the worry is that if they decide to make ALL their games going forward cross-gen (as in, natively playable on older systems), the support for the older systems will bottleneck full use of XSX in terms of graphics, physics, game mechanics/features, online scope and other things where more power is simply necessary.

Now, if those are just games for the first year of XSX, it probably won't be as big of a deal. Usually, launch games and first-year library of games for next-gen systems rarely show off the full power of next-gen systems or show paradigm shifts in game design from tail-end of previous gen. But we also gotta remember, in the past console architectures were also radically different gen-to-gen, meaning lots of new things had to be learned, old tricks re-learned for new hardware architectures, and so on.

These new systems are basically just extensions of previous gen but powered-up. So the learning gap won't be nearly as hard as it was going from, say, PS1 to PS2, or PS2 to 360. Also they can keep most of their dev pipeline and toolchains from previous gen going into this one, no radical changes needed. So by that metric, even if the jump from last gen to this one isn't as big as, say, PS1/N64/Saturn to DC/PS2/Xbox/GC (or those ones to 360/PS3), it is still a jump, the gains are still noticeable, and having some next-gen exclusives in the first year could actually outdo cross-gen efforts visually and in other ways if they specifically target a given spec.

At the same time, the next gen basically being souped-up versions of current gen systems architecturally (outside of some things like ray-tracing and the custom SSD) means there's no reason to not have cross-gen support, either. There's no guarantee that any next-gen exclusives in the first year will be that much more impressive than current-gen games releasing this year and next year (especially if those have PS4 Pro/Xbox One X versions available) to justify them being next-gen exclusive. Chances are unlikely any next-gen exclusives will have some monumental paradigm shifts in game design, online play, or physics that can easily be looked at and say "Yep, that's next-gen gaming". If anything, they'll just be prettier versions of current-gen games with some early-effort ray-tracing put on top, but functionally play like a current-gen game.

In that case, might as well let most (if not all) of them be cross-gen, since it'll probably start with the 2nd-wave next-gen games where you start getting those genuinely fresh next-gen experiences taking more advantage of the hardware, that can't necessarily be done on the older hardware (even the Pro models).
 
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