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They definitly have no idea how to present what they have done, whether it's good or bad, they showed it the worst way possible.
chilichote
Member
Cerny said some assets are 400 times saved on a HDD on PS4. So thanks to the SSD in the PS5, games could be smaller because they don't need redundant assets.
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xacto
Member
I completely agree with you on this one.
LokusAbriss
Member
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, but that will be the same for XSX... That has more to do with SSD technology compared to HDD.
chilichote
Member
I was concerned with your statement that there would only be room for 1 or 2 games on the SSD in the PS5; not about the XBox.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
The most baffling thing about all this was they picked THAT way to show the console, THAT event.
It just baffles me...
The PS5 is pretty much worse off in every way other than SSD. It’s audio is on par with what the series x is doing.
I truly believe that the SSD is an amazing feat of engineering. I do. It will allow Sony first party to shine. But third party titles will still be the same story we have every generation, and will cater to the lower spec of the two. You’re looking at better fps and better resolution on the series x, versus the possibility of loading a little quicker on the ps5. I say loading because they will also be using the slower SSD in the series x as their loading base, so for third parties st least, ingame effect will be minimal.
But that slow SSD in the series X? It’s not slow. AT ALL. But essentially, the more data you will be loading into your scene or loading call, the longer the difference will get. But you need to be loading a LOT of data for this to impact anything. I’m not talking a few gb, im talking a few hundred gb. Everyday games will have no real difference between the two. SX will ideally hit 4.8gb/sec and PS5 will ideally hit 8.5gb/sec, so we can say ideally you’re looking at twice the speed. I say ideally because loading doesn’t work like this, and the speed things can be shuffled in and out of your scene depend on a lot of other factors, but based on speed alone, it’s about double. Now as games will get smaller, but file sizes will get larger, we can assume that ideally you will be looking at complex scenes with roughly a small bump in data numeracy but a large bump in asset file size. Remember that even when you’re using these SSDs you still have *other* laws in effect, and the rest of the system plays a part here too.
Ingame won’t see much difference, you will load assets in without any big difference at all that will be perceivable. You will get slightly longer loading on the sx, but I’m talking 1-2 seconds versus 2-3.
But first parties? This is their time to shine. Sony will continue to pimp our amazing quality titles I’m sure, and MS have made massive strides with theirs, too. But it’s now on THEM. And with al the background stuff MS are up to, as well as Sony, I expect both to be dropping some bombs this year.
I feel the PS5 is a damn good machine, a bloody awesome one. It’s not as good as the SX, and they banked maybe a little bit too much on that SSD (Remember it’s not just about having that data, but decompressing and rendering it too).
So I’ll stick by what I said all along. The differences are small, they are close, but this generation will provide some damn good entertainment, and nobody will lose this time.
The only other area is services, and we still have yet to see what either of them are really doing. I don’t believe for one second BC will stop at Ps4, and I’m sure they will announce more later on. But there’s a lot of other areas to chat about.
So, yeah, in short, on thinking about it over night, the Ps5 is a good console, just not as good as the SX. It seems to have a few very odd things that could work, but seem very dependant on certain situations. The throttling seems a tad worrying, for one.
But all in all... this presentation didn’t help one bit. They could have really sold what it was, but gave this awful video.
Get a ps5, get an SX. You will be more than happy either way. But as I said, I’ll be getting both - PS5 for exclusives, SX for everything else.
Now let me get a coffee and wake up, lol.
It just baffles me...
The PS5 is pretty much worse off in every way other than SSD. It’s audio is on par with what the series x is doing.
I truly believe that the SSD is an amazing feat of engineering. I do. It will allow Sony first party to shine. But third party titles will still be the same story we have every generation, and will cater to the lower spec of the two. You’re looking at better fps and better resolution on the series x, versus the possibility of loading a little quicker on the ps5. I say loading because they will also be using the slower SSD in the series x as their loading base, so for third parties st least, ingame effect will be minimal.
But that slow SSD in the series X? It’s not slow. AT ALL. But essentially, the more data you will be loading into your scene or loading call, the longer the difference will get. But you need to be loading a LOT of data for this to impact anything. I’m not talking a few gb, im talking a few hundred gb. Everyday games will have no real difference between the two. SX will ideally hit 4.8gb/sec and PS5 will ideally hit 8.5gb/sec, so we can say ideally you’re looking at twice the speed. I say ideally because loading doesn’t work like this, and the speed things can be shuffled in and out of your scene depend on a lot of other factors, but based on speed alone, it’s about double. Now as games will get smaller, but file sizes will get larger, we can assume that ideally you will be looking at complex scenes with roughly a small bump in data numeracy but a large bump in asset file size. Remember that even when you’re using these SSDs you still have *other* laws in effect, and the rest of the system plays a part here too.
Ingame won’t see much difference, you will load assets in without any big difference at all that will be perceivable. You will get slightly longer loading on the sx, but I’m talking 1-2 seconds versus 2-3.
But first parties? This is their time to shine. Sony will continue to pimp our amazing quality titles I’m sure, and MS have made massive strides with theirs, too. But it’s now on THEM. And with al the background stuff MS are up to, as well as Sony, I expect both to be dropping some bombs this year.
I feel the PS5 is a damn good machine, a bloody awesome one. It’s not as good as the SX, and they banked maybe a little bit too much on that SSD (Remember it’s not just about having that data, but decompressing and rendering it too).
So I’ll stick by what I said all along. The differences are small, they are close, but this generation will provide some damn good entertainment, and nobody will lose this time.
The only other area is services, and we still have yet to see what either of them are really doing. I don’t believe for one second BC will stop at Ps4, and I’m sure they will announce more later on. But there’s a lot of other areas to chat about.
So, yeah, in short, on thinking about it over night, the Ps5 is a good console, just not as good as the SX. It seems to have a few very odd things that could work, but seem very dependant on certain situations. The throttling seems a tad worrying, for one.
But all in all... this presentation didn’t help one bit. They could have really sold what it was, but gave this awful video.
Get a ps5, get an SX. You will be more than happy either way. But as I said, I’ll be getting both - PS5 for exclusives, SX for everything else.
Now let me get a coffee and wake up, lol.
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Mriverz
Member
VFXVeteran
whats your take on the Ssd and performance improvements? Possible? Maybe? No?@X-Fighter i see your points, Size wise 825 vs 1tb think Its not going make a big difference a extra game Or so depending? More curious to see if it will make a difference in the performance. Feel like thats what Df was pointing to. Alot of unknowns still on sony side on how everything mesh’s together and what that ssd can actually do at a 8-9gb compressed. Definitely need gameplay footage. Either way both consoles look really good and both are hella different on how they approached this gen.
lepermessiah
Member
Christ almighty 
The way the ssd is implemented in the PS5 is...it's never been done like that before, and certainly not at those speeds. I think the results will speak for themselves. No wonder the devs are so excited.
The way the ssd is implemented in the PS5 is...it's never been done like that before, and certainly not at those speeds. I think the results will speak for themselves. No wonder the devs are so excited.
Mriverz
Member
“ Sony's solution is proprietary, 825GB is most optimal match for the 12-channel interface and there are other advantages too”
hardseppo
Member
I think it's 1 TB and the rest is reserved for the system. I could be wrong, but I think my Pro also had 825 GB free from the get-go.
pasterpl
Member
i am not an expert but this sounds like pr bs to me
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
@OsirisBlack
@HeisenbergFX4
@BGs
Gavin Stevens
some of these just vanished from this thread.
all these riddles nonsense makes me feel stupid for some reason
I posted all day yesterday despite what was going on here at home, went to bed, and posted first thing this morning.
Do me a lemon mate. I’ve hardly run off.
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D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah indeed, size wise it doesn't matter. It's more about if you only have 1TB SSD, and you really want to take advantage from that super fast SSD, even more so than the one from XSX then your games are going to be huge in size. Because you need all those textures. So I think it will be mostly about loading times, and less about visuals and textures. We'll find out in June when we see the games.
Darius87
Member
i know that's why i used word some meaning not all of you, i hope you'll get your fake ass banned from here.
p.s get well from corona.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Absolutely.
We can disregard third party titles, as truth be told they will go for the PS5 lower speeds, and the SX lower SSD speed, as their baseline. That won’t change. You will see some fast loading, amazing looking games.
First party is where you will see both sides take advantage of their strengths.
Now for the PS5 SSD, it’s fast, there is no doubt about it. Twice as fast as the SX one, it’s amazing. I can’t give them enough props for that. The trouble is, to effectively use that in a realistic situation that isn’t on paper, it’s... wasted. Because the other components in the system will hard it back in various ways. So while you can effectively load so much more so much quicker now, you will still be limited by how much you can decompress, what speed it can be called into and out of memory, and how much you can store.
Effectively, due to the other factors in the system differences, a real world scenario wouldn’t have it being twice as quick at all for ingame asset streaming. In fact it may indeed be barely in-perceivable to people playing the game.
Loading times however will be where it will shine. But even then, you are limited in how much data you will load, and you will be looking as a few seconds difference, not minutes.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Haha, knobjoke . Thanks ❤ Also, I explained why the info I passed on was what it was. I didn’t see anybody else bother. So give me the benefit of the doubt at least that this wasn’t my fault.
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LokusAbriss
Member
That SSD is a great achievement for Sony. But they present it as their strongest part of the console. The PS4 was a great success, because they focused on the important parts and performance. They created a solid and more powerful console than their competition. It feels like the PS3 reveal, where it is questionable if the advantages of certain hardware (blu-ray-drive) are that noticable in comparison. The super fast SSD is impressive, but when will we see that hardware widely used in the pc market? Most SSD on pc are not in that performance range.
3D Audio sounds great on paper, but even Cerny said that some people dont even hear the improvements. For it to work properly, we might need further configurations or even scans of our ears! Will it work with soundbars, tv-speakers and so on?
Both advertised features are not easy to sell to the general gamer and not even that important to them.
Another problem for me, is the fact that they use variable frequencies. If done wrong, it can end up beeing a very bad experience. Will the console get too hot, when under high load too long?
Many unanswered and open questions. They made so much money with the PS4 and cheaped out on PS5 hardware, compared to MS. Sad.
3D Audio sounds great on paper, but even Cerny said that some people dont even hear the improvements. For it to work properly, we might need further configurations or even scans of our ears! Will it work with soundbars, tv-speakers and so on?
Both advertised features are not easy to sell to the general gamer and not even that important to them.
Another problem for me, is the fact that they use variable frequencies. If done wrong, it can end up beeing a very bad experience. Will the console get too hot, when under high load too long?
Many unanswered and open questions. They made so much money with the PS4 and cheaped out on PS5 hardware, compared to MS. Sad.
pawel86ck
Banned
Can you show me where it's mentioned in eurogamer article? In the PS5 article a dedicated audio processor is mentioned, but I cant find anything that would suggest a dedicated audio processor in xbox SX. Right now I'm assuming RT sound on xbox will be using the the same RT hardware as GPU is using and it will slow GPU performance as a result.
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Zoro7
Banned
Cheaped out on hardware isn’t the right term. You honestly think Sony couldn’t bring out a more expensive machine with all it has now plus more TF? Yea they could but they had their fingers burnt before with expensive hardware. This is their solution to both an affordable price and great hardware. It’s a compromise.
Little Chicken
Member
Some of the mental gymnastics surrounding the PS5 specs deserve a gold medal.
FranXico
Member
They bragged about ray-traced audio already. It's not that hard to assume that if the hardware for ray tracing is there, it can be used for both lighting and audio.
What separates Sony is that they also have a distinctive solution for virtual sorround. That' s the part of the talk that excited him the most tbh.
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toxiichollow
Member
So no AMD ps5 pr article??
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
And this is Neogaf, do you expect everyone to be master engineers?
pawel86ck
Banned
I know MS also talked about RT sound, but I want to know if XSX has a dedicated audio chip like PS5. if XSX will need to use GPU RT resources for sound it will impact the RT performance.
Mriverz
Member
But isnt that why Sony added kraken, and everything else to make that there is no bottlenecks or compromises with the other components?
“ All of this is delivered to developers without them needing to do anything. Even the decompression is taken care of by the custom silicon. "You just indicate what data you'd like to read from your original, uncompressed file, and where you'd like to put it, and the whole process of loading it happens invisibly to you and at very high speed," Cerny explains.
Sounds like 3rd partys will be able to max the ps5 ssd without extra work??
VFXVeteran
Banned
I think the speeds will definitely factor into streaming and loading of assets. Storing textures and any other assets that need per pixel shading however, will have to be in memory already. I'm not sure how that would translate to faster FPS though. It's a good question and one that we'll hopefully see the answer to pretty soon.
It lowers the effective bus from 320bits to 192bits only when accessing the high part of the larger modules, so in other word thats the slower 6GB. There is no advantage to this performance wise, its just cheaper.
My guess is that games will be smaller not larger this generation, and theres plenty you can do with a fast SSD, it allows you to reduce your cache pool for one, freeing up more RAM.
Nickolaidas
Member
This will definitely force to finally invest on an av receiver with 4k hdmi ports to be used for both picture and sound.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
There's already enough RAM though. For proper 4K, 16GB is more than enough.
K.N.W.
Member
Since fire is fire, let's burn. Did you understandd that, if developers will put effort into that, the SSD might really improve RAM usage?? Every game on every machine usually has part of the RAM used for "preloading" game contents that are not used in said moment/place. With the SSD, said data, would temporarily rest in the drive, making more RAM space available for what is going in said moment. Hell, having more free space, means also a better management of the available bandwith, bringing its usage closer to the theorethical performance level.
And the best part is that, this may be implemented automatically by the SDK.
And the best part is that, this may be implemented automatically by the SDK.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Third parties can, of course, but of you do something that’s not possible on the other console...? See the problem?
Also, MS have quite a few things as well that will help with all this.
As I said, don’t get me wrong here, the Ps5 SSD will alow some utterly insane stuff to be done, but you will need to look at first party for the real show stoppers there. They will more than likely still deliver some better stuff than the SX. But there ARE laws to follow that you can’t break, and some of them sadly are a little bit more rigid.
If you went ps4 this gen, you will not be disappointed in any way with Ps5 next gen. that much is true. I myself went all three this gen and will go all three next gen. but there’s no wrong choice this time.
The biggest issue was that utter shit show of a, well, show. It made them look really bad, when in reality they have a damn good product.
xPikYx
Member
The only good thing I can say about this ps5 is that maybe, MAYBE, the secret sauce they were talking about, is that the ssd is fast enough to load a 3d scene with all the assets and textures, portion by portion, given the example about Jak and Daxter, and this can be a game changer theorically, it's even better than Variable rate shading, in real time the ssd will load the scene in front of the player piece by piece according to where is looking at, so the weak compute power may result bigger because the powee is used to render smaller portions of a 3d scene, loaded step by step, is LOD at its finest. Hence must be seen if this apply to 3rd party titles or only 1st party will use such feature, sure is they should have give to people some demo of this because as it is the result has been 10,28tf is < of 12.115, even from a developer point of view a believe they have not been clear enough
Mendou
Banned
These are now consoles that don't have hard disks. They use fast SSDs. Your Seagate hard drive will not run PS5/XSX games on it.
geordiemp
Member
They have the lockart so, do you think Phil is referring to the lower cost lockart of a cheap XSX ?
mmm, idk
Its more then enough for current gen games but you can never have enough really. Itll be interesting see what Sony uses to show off the PS5 and if they are mostly exclusives.
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Mriverz
Member
Indeed went Ps/Switch this gen. But definitely picking up both or at the very least a lockhart if theres no big difference between Sx/Ps.
K.N.W.
Member
No.
FranXico
Member
Even based on the examples Cerny gave, ray traced audio is much cheaper than ray traced lighting. Orders of magnitude less intensive, in fact.
Will not impact RT for lighting.
pawel86ck
Banned
XSX also has similar technology and they call it velocity architecture. Memory savings thanks to SDD will be huge on both machines although it looks like PS5 will provide even faster streaming (4.8GB vs 9GB compressed data).
Darius87
Member
because you sound like i child take responsibility for it you posted fake info pretending you have sources which makes you responsible like i you're responsible for your child, you should think twice before posting any info from anyone. we will see if mod of war keeps his word and take action like he said he will.
pawel86ck
Banned
As I remember Cery talked about how demanding RT audio is in his PS5 presentati
on and that's why they have build a dedicated audio processor.
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Every time he delivered infos he said he wasn't sure, it's just what he heard etc... if people skips that part and just went OMG 11.6, than really to post insider info here you betta be sure like Mark Cerny level. C'mon.
because you sound like i child take responsibility for it you posted fake info pretending you have sources which makes you responsible like i you're responsible for your child, you should think twice before posting any info from anyone. we will see if mod of war keeps his word and take action like he said he will.
Mod of War will likely ban "fake vetted". He is not vetted, can't ban him because he told something he heard and not wanted to get vetted because wasn't sure. Grow up.
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As in the main the specs are not out there (yeah there's still going to be a load of mud slinging about TF here and an SSD there) the good news is going forward both companies can now focus on the games and services they have to offer. Yeah we have the PS5 form factor reveal, but for me it's now all about the games, services, game streaming etc. This is far more interesting than the specification bollocks we've had for far too long.
Burrito Bandito
Banned
as far as im concerned, the whole thing was pr bs.
from downplaying tflops, to the last minute boost clocks to claim 10.3 (when really its 9.2), to the 825gb ssd, ect. it was all spin, and in fact most of what he said also applies to the xbox except the xbox does it with more.
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