Shmunter
Member
If it’s legit RDNA2 it should do. But that’s actually not a guarantee till confirmed.
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CJY
Banned
Seeing as the talk was essentially a GDC talk aimed a devs, and with Cerny failing to mention anything about how much RAM is being reserved for the OS, I am really curious about whether they've decided to use maybe an ARM co-processor again, with its own dedicated RAM and/or storage for OS tasks. That would be really great to be honest, perhaps leaving 100% of the GDDR6 RAM for devs. I dunno if this is functionally possible though.
I consider the OS and its features "consumer-facing", so I fully expect them to go into it at the full reveal. Can you imagine how exciting it would be if the whole 16GB of RAM is available just for games? Would be amazing.
I also saw something mention that GameDVR functionality would eat up a whole chunk of RAM... I don't see why this would be the case when the IO is so fast. PS5 could hold as little as 5seconds of video in RAM (for example) and constantly write it out to storage at a low priority. Seems rather obvious to be honest, so maybe I'm missing something on why people think all the video needs to be stored in memory.
Edit: on the bandwidth, I believe that it's a fairly decent match for the 36 CUs. Redtechgaming went into extensively enough in the video I linked above. Said there were some rumours that the RAM could have possibly been clocked to 512GB/s, but they decided to keep it at 448GB/s.
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B_Boss
Member
Higher framerate improves input lag and response time. This is a scientific fact. You have been gaming on consoles for too long if you can't see or feel that.
Here’s the thing, If I’m a fish in water, how am I losing a good experience? Sadly I’m not sure you read and fully understood or appreciated my experience because as I’ve stated, my subjective experience is that slicker moving framerate (60+) is not ideal to me. It reminds me of the soap opera effect and for realistic games it isn’t ideal (visually) for me.
While relative to one another perhaps, there is absolutely no noticeable lag for 30fps games. My experience certainly doesn’t seem that way at all. From Battlefield (BC2, BF3/4 on PS3/360) to Division 2, Destiny, all on consoles, I input a command, it’s instantaneous. I recognize input lag (again, when using/testing soap opera effect for example or on a bad monitor/tv) but I don’t experience it when I play my 30fps games in that same way. I also play 60fps games and it seems that when I input a command on either game, the effect feels instant enough for me to know I’m not suffering lag so much that I can’t game.
Consoles have been around for over 35 years? Microsoft of all companies, created a gaming console so your apparent jab(?) at someone gaming on consoles for a while slams into a wall. I’m not sure what you’re implying there but I appreciate explicit thoughts and discussion.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Not really, haven't you heard about sound cards?
Sound Blaster Internal and External USB DAC and Amp Sound Cards and Buying Guide - Creative Labs (United States)
The Sound Blaster product range has an audio upgrade solution – internal and external—for every setup. Don’t stop at stunning visuals. Redefine your audio experience with Sound Blaster.
www.soundblaster.com
Matt made it pretty clear that he's expecting to purchase the Series X to play multiplatform games on.
Ther Series X has the GPU advantage, CPU advantage, and memory bandwidth advantage, of course games are going to look and play best on it.
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
he expected it to be more powerful across the board and it’s not. This was his own personal opinion and he admitted he did not know where the numbers stood when he made this statement originally. AFAIK he hasn’t clarified what system he will get multiplats on after both specs have been revealed, and probably won’t until we get back actual benchmarks
And because we now know the advantage in GPU and CPU is only 6% and 16%, with SSD being 220% in Sony’s favor and clocks being 20% in Sony’s favor, amongst a slew of other cofactors in the hardware, you’d think that maybe multi platform buying decisions wouldn’t come down to simply which console has the highest measure of one factor
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megreotsugua
Banned
Can you see the difference in 4K and sub 4K in Digital Foundry comparison in youtube? No, it will not show to the average eye.
Texture detail, texel density, and more artwork will be VISIBLE right off the bat.
XSEX will have a hard time convincing average gamers looking at youtube videos that XSEX is better when the PS5 is showing a lot more detailed and high resolution textures.
More detailed high-resolution textures > Screen output resolution
Texture detail, texel density, and more artwork will be VISIBLE right off the bat.
XSEX will have a hard time convincing average gamers looking at youtube videos that XSEX is better when the PS5 is showing a lot more detailed and high resolution textures.
More detailed high-resolution textures > Screen output resolution
Kazekage1981
Member
All this techno babble is making my video game hard on flaccid to the point I might become impotent to play video games anymore.
Dear Mark Cerny,
Please show us the cheetah like power of PlayStation 5 with your talented first party teams that are capable of making beautiful and immersive games. All will be then forgiven.
Sincerely,
Me.
Dear Phil Spencer,
Minecraft is nice, and Gears of War 5 is cool, but please show us next gen Forza 8, and the talent of all your recent studio acquisitions. I heard your launch title lineup is going to be the best ever.
Sincerley,
Me
Dear Mark Cerny,
Please show us the cheetah like power of PlayStation 5 with your talented first party teams that are capable of making beautiful and immersive games. All will be then forgiven.
Sincerely,
Me.
Dear Phil Spencer,
Minecraft is nice, and Gears of War 5 is cool, but please show us next gen Forza 8, and the talent of all your recent studio acquisitions. I heard your launch title lineup is going to be the best ever.
Sincerley,
Me
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squidilix
Member
WTF, this guys is like Doritos-man, so much commercial.
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Shmunter
Member
I may have been the one speculating on gamedvr. The potential issue with video and storage is that these systems are recording constantly. No issue dumping it to ssd, but if you are doing it too often what’s the impact on drive longevity? Maybe negligible with current tech, no idea.
CuriousToe
Member
Matt has been clear that the PS5 will not outperform XSX on multiplats. He responded to someone who was discussing this as a possibility with a clear 'no'. This was only in the last few days.
There is no reason to believe that given the existing approach to development, that the XSX will not be the best place for multiplatform games. The question at this stage is by how much?
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Audiophile
Gold Member
Here's an Nvidia Turing SM (Streaming Multiprocessor), which is a effectively and equivalent of an AMD CU (Compute Unit). The RT core isn't separate, it's integrated in the SM.
Are you by any chance basing the idea of separate cores on the simplified infographic below (Turing, Right)?
Here's an official RT patent from AMD. By itself it doesn't guarantee this is AMD's exact solution but its worth mentioning that MS, Sony and DF have mentioned "Intersection Engines" in regards to PS5/XSX's RDNA2 RT implementation:
While the exact manner in which it's integrated differs, it's still the same fundamental concept as the first pic of the Nvidia SM. An Intersection Engine/RT Core inside the Compute Unit/Streaming Multiprocessor, next to the shaders, caches etc.
There would be no advantage in sticking a bunch of extra cores outside the CU, you want everything tightly integrated for latency.
While we don't yet know how performant AMD RT is relative to Nvidia RTX. I'd hazard a guess based on this proposed implementation that it could be more dynamic and flexible; and perhaps a more efficient means of using die space for hybrid RT.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I have those Xperia S ones
And the Xperia Z2 ones to which are far superior
But I also have Sony's Hi Res Extra Bass, the PlayStation NC ones.
PlayStation Gold Headset
And a set of Sony Bluetooth Extra Bass earbuds
I'm very picky with my headphones
A lot of the ones I see people using lack warmth and real bass, tops have distortion
And my AV system is over 1000 Watts RMS
and supports Uncompressed Audio, Dolby True HD although I'm convinced it's weaker then my older system, you could feel that outside lol
That does need upgrading as with have newer audio formats now but I'm too fond of it.
Wow! I've been a Sony phone guy since 2005: Walkman 550i/Satio/C905/K800i/Xperia S/Xperia Z3/Xperia XA2 and waiting for Xperia 1ii to be available. Sony has pullled out of the middle eastern market, sadly 2 years now before the new overhaul. I would buy it from B&H most likely.
Might pick the new WH-1000XM4 if it's 100% compatible with PS5, and the DS5 can produce 7.1 instead of 2.0. Using Astro A40 + Mixer in the meanwhile, and I don't like the bass but the clarity is great.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
this depends on your metric of performance
is It resolution?
framerate?
loading times?
texture detail?
LOD?
audio quality?
traditionally it’s always been resolution and framerate, because they are generally paired with better performance with textures, loading, and LOD across the board
that is not the case here.
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Again, SeX isn't leading in just one measure, it's leading in many.
Matt has been one of the most reliable insiders out there. He knows what he's talking about.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
he said the TFlop count difference isn’t going to matter or be worth arguing about
PS5 is also leading in many of its own areas with a larger difference than TF/CPU
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Sure that could be a bottom line but the conversation is far from over. We accept that the series X has a stronger GPU...now what? Let’s analyze and have a great time doing so. The conversation continues...
So awesome to read this. I’m the same way Bhuna. Not crazy about 2/4/8k lol. I mean it’s awesome technically but it in no way has ever enhanced my gaming experience. That’s just my subjective experience and opinion.
I would advice you to buy ANY cheap 4K HDR, at ANY size you like, even the cheapest. You'll thank me later. It's not just better, it's MASSIVELY better!
CuriousToe
Member
The specs would indicate that resolution and frame rate will be in XSX's favour. Those are generally the metrics sites like DF and the like will use.
Audiophile
Gold Member
It's a standard feature of RDNA2 and I'd think Sony would have had to actively opt out of it if they didn't want to use it; which would be utterly bizarre give it's advantages, especially in the console environment.
I fully expect it to be there and very much hope it is. I'm guessing they simply haven't mentioned it yet.
It's worth noting Sony have patents on VRS that even MS have cited in their own documentation.
MS' DirectX "patented VRS" simply refers to their API implementation. If it's in PS5, Sony will simply have their own API implementation and may refer to it with a different name, but there'd both be leveraging the same fundamental hardware function.
Audiophile
Gold Member
This is one criticism I agree with, I think Sony needs to pony up for some 16Gbps chips.
rnlval
Member
Sony talks about SSD superiority while larger game world simulation has a higher CPU workload which impacts GPU's memory allocation.
XSX's 560 GB/s memory bandwidth has factored increase CPU workload (from larger game world simulation) while maintaining superior GPU memory allocation.
PS5's 8-to-9 GB/s SSD vs XSX's ~6 GB/s SSD is not 2X. XSX would need slightly aggressive forward texture loading. CPU world simulation can run independently from texture load and XSX has higher AI compute power for AI upscaled textures. https://wccftech.com/an-xbox-game-s...w-res-textures-to-be-ai-upscaled-in-real-time
But every CPU access to the slow memory pool reduces the overall affective bandwidth of the bus to 366GB/s for the period of the memory transactions. This would reduce the effective bandwidth per frame for ever CPU access you make. The XSX's memory solution is good for saving costs, but bad for performance.
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
yes, resolution will be around 16% higher
resolution is not the only thing you see on the screen. Texture detail and LOD also play a factor
nor is it the only metric that impacts enjoyment or frictional costs of enjoyment such as loading
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
there may be more to the story here if all 16GB are devoted to VRAM and the OS has its own or is directly accessing the SSD
TLZ
Banned
Not 6gb/s. 4.8 gb/s. At least be honest with the specs.
rnlval
Member
Four GDDR6 1GB chips remain dedicated channels while six GDDR6 2GB chips are partly or fully allocated to the higher clocked CPU. This is why I cited PC's DDR4-3800's 60 GB/s example.
Are you claiming PS5's GPU will deliver RTX 2080 class performance? XSX's memory solution is good for GPU's higher resolution performance i.e. design to win Digital Foundry pixel count.
rnlval
Member
Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs
This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …
www.eurogamer.net
"Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver more than 6GB / s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads the decompression job from the CPU and adapts to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck. The decompression hardware supports Zlib for general data and a new (system) of compression called BCPack that adapts to GPU textures that generally comprise the vast majority of a game's pack size. "
The XSX's memory system is literally to avoid paying for 20GB of GDDR6.
You cant split channels like that as they require channel bonding / striping to get full performance, so whilst those 4 other chips may be exist they will only be able to strip with each other getting a total bandwidth of 224GB/s at best from the 4 chips and any data accessed like that can only be accessed at a max of 224GB/s _regardless_ of how many channels are 'free'.
But thats a moot point because its not at all how memory controllers work in reality, in reality the two consumers of memory will push request onto the controller and it'll reorder them to some degree to helpful the latency sensitive device (CPU) first and then do the GPU requests.
If the CPU requests are by the slow memory allocation they will lock the entire bus from being read by the GPU and transfer at a max of 336GB/s for the entire transaction.
TLZ
Banned
Literally in the same link:Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs
This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …
"Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver more than 6GB / s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads the decompression job from the CPU and adapts to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck. The decompression hardware supports Zlib for general data and a new (system) of compression called BCPack that adapts to GPU textures that generally comprise the vast majority of a game's pack size. "
Shmunter
Member
Pixel density, XsX all day everyday in games. Game built with focus on detail maxed by 5.5gig asset streaming, XsX half detail of PS5. How often we see max utilisation is another matter; but the hardware potential is clear.
Anybody that is not a raging fanboy can acknowledge the basics of potential above.
What’s not yet clear is what the bespoke subsystems in each console contribute to offloading pressure on cpu/GPU tasks. We can only speculate.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Actually when you push that ~6GB/s from the MS side then it's ~22GB/s with the mighty Kracken if you've been paying attention to the conversation around here.
How all that would workout? Well, we need to see that head-to-head with the same game, or let's say it'll differentiate from game to game so we might see a winner in one and a loser in another. Those assets are picked up on the fly by PS5 and that's not happening in XSX, so less load needed on CPU/GPU/RAM. Not to mention that speedy 2.23Ghz can pick up orders much faster resulting in more efficient work and less idling. That 448GB/s can pick up much more data out of the SSD, up to 4x faster than in XSX. This should result in some interesting scenarios.
I view both of them like AK-47 (M16) vs AK-74 (M4). While the AK-47 has more brute impact force due to its larger bullet and longer distance fatality, AK-74 has faster RPM and better bullet speed and penetration. With AK-47 (M16) being XSX and AK-74 (M4) being PS5. Both are fatal, yet different. (assuming you are shooting at zombies
)
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I'm sorry but I can notice the difference between 1800p and native 4K on youtube. But it's not a big deal overall and depends on your screen size and how far you're sitting. For me it's 55" and 2 meters away, and looking to upgrade to at least 65". But I agree on your final conclusion.
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Captain Hero
The Spoiler Soldier
Ahem
It's leading on one area lol. An area which won't effect the performance of a game... Sorry, but we all see the specs... I'll side with Matt who hasn't really been wrong yet in saying that Series X will be the place to play multiplatform games.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Audiophile
Gold Member
XSX is 2.4GB/s (RAW) & 4.8GB/s (Compressed).
The Decompression Block is 6GB/s, I presume this simply provides overhead. They have a very smart solution that only loads chunks of textures for greater efficiency. Textures will make up a substantial part of traffic and their BCPack solution seems to be very well optimised for this. Based on the memory controller they're likely using it will run with 4 Channels.
PS5 is 5.5GB/s (RAW) & 8-9GB/s (Compressed).
Cerny stated 25GB/s for data that compresses particularly well, this probably refers to their own decompression hardware in tandem with their custom I/O logic that provides "6-layers of priority". PS5's SSD has 12 Channels, which means more parallelism and faster, more granular access.
Both are great systems but they each had their priorities and Sony simply went further in this regard, it seems they've reached a threshold where there will be an even greater array of gameplay possibilities, particularly without compromising complexity.
When you can effectively teleport between two distinct, detailed environments in a second or load in new terrain faster than you can effectively traverse it, then the functional possibilities in a game environment become virtually limitless. Imagination and manpower will become the limit.
The Decompression Block is 6GB/s, I presume this simply provides overhead. They have a very smart solution that only loads chunks of textures for greater efficiency. Textures will make up a substantial part of traffic and their BCPack solution seems to be very well optimised for this. Based on the memory controller they're likely using it will run with 4 Channels.
PS5 is 5.5GB/s (RAW) & 8-9GB/s (Compressed).
Cerny stated 25GB/s for data that compresses particularly well, this probably refers to their own decompression hardware in tandem with their custom I/O logic that provides "6-layers of priority". PS5's SSD has 12 Channels, which means more parallelism and faster, more granular access.
Both are great systems but they each had their priorities and Sony simply went further in this regard, it seems they've reached a threshold where there will be an even greater array of gameplay possibilities, particularly without compromising complexity.
When you can effectively teleport between two distinct, detailed environments in a second or load in new terrain faster than you can effectively traverse it, then the functional possibilities in a game environment become virtually limitless. Imagination and manpower will become the limit.
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Wow.This is my problem with the XSX.
Sony got an SSD? We got an SSD.
Sony doing 3D audio? We do 3D Audio.
Sony got variable? Ours is fixed.
Sony have Flops? We need moar flopsss.
SSD is the game changer next gen and for me, XSX SSD concept sucks, faster load times... wow. What else? Nothing.
There is no finesse to Xbox and doesn't illicit any passion, just raw grunt.
To use the car analogy, XSX is like a Humvee, big and gross, gets the job done at all costs. PS5 is like a sexy refined sports car.
Come at me xbois
You understand that MS has had move engines, audio blocks even a dedicated jpg compression chip in Xbox One?
Your giving Sony props for “finesse”, while in all likely hood MS has literally focused on what’s new in the new xbox vs features they already had implemented.
Do you know for sure MS doesn’t have dedicated audio block? What makes you think they don’t given they done it in both the Xbox one and Xbox 360?
Finesse?
no. I think it’s Safe to say that we only get PS4 BC and not even for all titles.
Is there seriously someone who believe we get PS1,PS2 AND EVEN PS3 BC? Hard to imagine.
Why wouldn’t sone say so in their GDC talk? They talked about PS4 BC. Doesn’t make any sense.
I think PS1 and PS2 is likely but PS3 isnt, its just to odd to do proper BC for.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
It's leading in the only area that has a substantial difference between the consoles at a whopping 220%. It very much can affect the visuals you see in a game, by virtue of better texture density/clarity, superior LOD (less pop in). Do these aspects somehow NOT influence visuals? Especially when it's a 220% difference? This isn't even mentioning the 20% difference in clocks, which has advantages and can help mitigate the 16% difference in TFlops.
The GPU/CPU differences are a blip. They are a non-factor. It's the difference between 2160p and 1978p. Unless you are sitting ridiculously close to a 65"+ TV you are not going to be able to ascertain a resolution difference.
If you side with Matt, then you side with the person who said that the systems are not meaningfully different from a visuals POV.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Sorry man, for Multiplatform games, the ssd will not provide an advantage compared to Xbox series x.
The series X already has a very fast SSD, AND at the same time, has better cpu, gpu, memory and RT....
if series x would have a traditional HDD then yes, but they already have a super fast ssd... Sony’s ssd will be wasted and not really utilized by third party devs. And it’s not THAT important anyway. The SSD is SLOWER to an gddr3. Lol.
are you seriously saying that an SSD is MORE IMPORTANT to graphical fidelity, to resolution, to FPS than GPU+CPU+Memory+RT???
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TLZ
Banned
I still hope they manage to do it. There are a lot of great PS3 games that could do with better performance and higher res.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Sorry man, for Multiplatform games, the ssd will not provide an advantage compared to Xbox series x.
The series X already has a very fast SSD, AND at the same time, has better cpu, gpu, memory and RT....
if series x would have a traditional HDD then yes, but they already have a super fast ssd... Sony’s ssd will be wasted and not really utilized by third party devs. And it’s not THAT important anyway
are you seriously saying that an SSD is MORE IMPORTANT to graphical fidelity, to resolution, to FPS than GPU+CPU+Memory+RT???
The SSD certainly will provide an advantage compared to the XSX in the areas I just mentioned - Textures, Asset Diversity, LOD, loading, etc. It's a 220% difference which is substantial. The GPU and CPU are the smallest difference that has ever existed between two consoles in the history of videogames. Let that sink in how important those difference will be.
Resolution is only one aspect that determines the quality of an image. There are a ton of different factors.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
You know that you can't have both? It's either one or another and at most 5fps if not optimized for a locked 60fps. And guess what? That SSD also helps with input lag and framerates. Let's not over-look that.
CuriousToe
Member
I'm really not interested in arguing this sort of speculation and semantics.
Ultimately, the XSX is better equipped to handle multiplats. All things being equal, it is more capable on the GPU and CPU front.
As I've said before, I'm excited for PS5. In fact, it's very likely that it will be my next gen console of choice for all games. I do think exclusive games that make use of the insane SSD are going to be incredible.
But none of that is going to help when the major 3rd party studios design a game on PC and then port to XSX and PS5. One console is more powerful 'PC like' in its setup, and you should expect that in the final result.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Sorry man, for Multiplatform games, the ssd will not provide an advantage compared to Xbox series x.
The series X already has a very fast SSD, AND at the same time, has better cpu, gpu, memory and RT....
if series x would have a traditional HDD then yes, but they already have a super fast ssd... Sony’s ssd will be wasted and not really utilized by third party devs. And it’s not THAT important anyway. The SSD is SLOWER to an gddr3. Lol.
are you seriously saying that an SSD is MORE IMPORTANT to graphical fidelity, to resolution, to FPS than GPU+CPU+Memory+RT???
Do you know that GDDR6 at a speed of 560GB/s will be bottlenecked by the slow 4.8GB/s, right? Unless XSX is going to install the game directly into GDDR6 (good luck with that) then that 560GB/s is wasted with multiple cycles to transfer the same amount compared to PS5, the result that 448GB/s will do it in 1 go and the 560GB/s will do it in 2 cycles (at least) making it 280GB/s in practice.
Keyword: BALANCED
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