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Michael Pachter destroys Jason Schreier on Naughty Dog expose...

thelastword

Banned
How exactly is Pachter destroying Schreier…...Whenever I see a Pachter thread here on GAF people normally destroy his character, saying he has never been right on anything, but now, he destroys Schreier and people are receptive to it?......From where I'm sitting, Schreier has been pretty much on point with lots of news and info pieces and he lets any company of developer have it from what I've seen....
 

Virex

Banned
To be fair, Pachter is a shill, too. He is a successful marketing analyst who gives his "advice" away for free on videogame shows. He has his "brand". Pachter says things publicly which are intended to benefit the companies that he works with privately.
No you're understanding me wrong. Not a fan of Patcher either
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Michael Pachter destroys Jason Schreier on Naught Dog expose...

The gist..
  • Michael knows the people on the inside, never heard of such claims.
  • Schreier Is motivated by selling tabloid news
  • Not hard to find disgruntled company ex-employees to support narrative
  • Company doesn’t take Schreier seriously, no need to change culture
  • If you don’t like it work elsewhere
For your entertainment....



Have you heard the things Michael Pachter has said in the past? If so, you'd realize how WRONG he's been. Like 1,000 times! He's a meme at this point.
 

yurinka

Member
Not news, Pachter mentioned multiple times that he does not think crunch is a problem, unions are needed, etc... company does not need to take Schreier seriously, but bleeding talent and seeing the one inside burning out should be a wake up call one day.
Crunch is a problem, but not only in ND. In almost the entire industry, specially in those studios that aim to do top tier game like them. Unions are (or should) be good, at least they are in Europe. Rumors spreaded by Schreier & co. saying that ND is bleeding talent are false, any mid to big studio every year sees people joining or leaving for a ton of reasons, it's normal.

Rumors spreaded by him and others saying that ND has problems to hire people and that they are forced to put juniors in senior positions is laughable. Tons of devs would kill to work in ND. To find people for some job positions is more difficult than for others, specially inside a certain area and for games that require a certain top level like ND. Not everybody wants to move to somewhere else. But this is true for ND and for any other studio.

And tons of studios would kill to hire people from ND, so if devs don't leave it's because they don't want to.

And well, when a studio aims to the top they have to work hard, because that is obviously not easy.
 
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Anti-SJWs coming into this thread thinking it's going to validate their TLOU2 leak conspiracy theories by debunking what Jason found out:
7BRj.gif



If Jason is a shill and he was lying about ND like Patcher is suggesting, who was he shilling for? Microsoft? Nintendo?
It seems like Microsoft is hiring quite a lot, so if they promise whatever to attract talent they may just get it, companies lie all the time to get the employees they need, this happened to me before... once you give your resignation at the previous place you find out the benefits package is not at all what you were led on to believe.
 
Crunch is a problem, but not only in ND. In almost the entire industry, specially in those studios that aim to do top tier game like them. Unions are (or should) be good, at least they are in Europe. Rumors spreaded by Schreier & co. saying that ND is bleeding talent are false, any mid to big studio every year sees people joining or leaving for a ton of reasons, it's normal.
Are you sure they are so good in Europe? I'm in Canada and I know many people who immigrated here because of the work market over there, either as an employee or as a business person.
 
"Destroys"? Are we really that far down the clickbait hell-hole? Soon it'll be in capitals and bolded...

Anyway, Pachter has been around the industry a lot longer, so his words carry some weight. With that said, I do wonder if that means he's less in touch with, say, a number of junior animators stuck working 16 hour days for 9 months on animating the same mo-capped cut-scene, and perhaps more connected to the lead animation department supervisor who is heavily invested in the company, and who may have a personal reward bonus attached the success of the game? Because if it's the later, that feedback might be different.
I would love to answer you, but first let me tell you about Raid : Shadow Legends

Raid: Shadow Legends is a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game. The game's story takes place in the fictional realm of Teleria, which has been subjugated by the Dark Lord Siroth. Players take the role of an ancient Telerian warrior resurrected to defeat the Dark Lord and restore peace and harmony to the territory. Players must assemble an army for battles in settings such as castles, dungeons, deserts and temples defended by enemies and possible allies. Throughout the game, players accumulate Shards, vessels containing the souls of past warriors. Shards come in four types with different properties. Another currency in the game is Silver, which the player uses to do almost anything in the game, from leveling up champions, to playing a stage.

RAID_Shadow_Legends_logo.png


The game consists primarily of story-driven single-player campaign with twelve levels, each level made up of seven stages with three levels of difficulty. The single-player campaign is interconnected with a multiplayer component to decide player rankings.

The game's narrative was written by Paul C.R. Monk, and the game adopts a Western art style, with realistic characters, and settings inspired by dark fantasy.

Ok now that we have that out of the way, lets get into your question.

Also don't forget to slap that reaction in the bottom left and hit follow, it really helps my profile. Consider giving me money via Patreon, you will get exclusive opinions I don't share anywhere else.

Yes we are that far down that hole.

Thanks to Raid : Shadow Legends for sponsoring this post. I'll see you all next time.
 

yurinka

Member
Are you sure they are so good in Europe? I'm in Canada and I know many people who immigrated here because of the work market over there, either as an employee or as a business person.
It depends on the country. In gaming they don't exist, because gaming is a new industry that started a few decades ago. Same happens with other tech/computer science related industries.

Unions here are more common in traditional industries, and at least here in Spain they achieved many things in the past. Many of them are applied to all workers of the country. Like a couple of dozens of vacation days per year plus bank days and so on, from working maximum 8 hours/day and 5 days per week, hours worked overtime and at night are paid more expensive, you get a compensation depending on the years worked when being fired, good public health care and education for everybody 'for free' (paid with company and workers taxes) that covers almost everything.

This means that some companies don't want to be here because it's more expensive to have a worker or fire him because workers 'are too protected'. And well, just to have a company is more expensive here due to taxes. But well, we understand that has more priority to have a certain quality of life because workers aren't supposed to be slave and everyone should have a decent education and health even if poor (and then, if you have money and prefer a private one you're free to pay it).
 

Northeastmonk

Gold Member
I'd like to know the real scoop, but if you live somewhere where gaming is simply retail stores then your only perception is what you gather from others online. Working GameStop retail won't tell you anything besides the business world of gaming is just like any other retail store. They're there to sell a product and their product is all they manage. A lot of gamers get their insider stories from GameStop if they're not going online for their news. Patcher seems like a real nice guy. But he has to realize that a lot of gamer customers live under a shroud. One that would never tell them about harsh conditions or anything about the industry had they not reached out somewhere for more information. Living in a small midwestern town, going to GameStop and checking IGN only tells you so much. SO if you put that into words, that's all the information you have. Criticize someone or teach them something. I think he should also try and educate his viewers (including those here on NeoGAF).


I would love to answer you, but first let me tell you about Raid : Shadow Legends

Raid: Shadow Legends is a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game. The game's story takes place in the fictional realm of Teleria, which has been subjugated by the Dark Lord Siroth. Players take the role of an ancient Telerian warrior resurrected to defeat the Dark Lord and restore peace and harmony to the territory. Players must assemble an army for battles in settings such as castles, dungeons, deserts and temples defended by enemies and possible allies. Throughout the game, players accumulate Shards, vessels containing the souls of past warriors. Shards come in four types with different properties. Another currency in the game is Silver, which the player uses to do almost anything in the game, from leveling up champions, to playing a stage.

RAID_Shadow_Legends_logo.png


The game consists primarily of story-driven single-player campaign with twelve levels, each level made up of seven stages with three levels of difficulty. The single-player campaign is interconnected with a multiplayer component to decide player rankings.

The game's narrative was written by Paul C.R. Monk, and the game adopts a Western art style, with realistic characters, and settings inspired by dark fantasy.

Ok now that we have that out of the way, lets get into your question.

Also don't forget to slap that reaction in the bottom left and hit follow, it really helps my profile. Consider giving me money via Patreon, you will get exclusive opinions I don't share anywhere else.

Yes we are that far down that hole.

Thanks to Raid : Shadow Legends for sponsoring this post. I'll see you all next time.



I saw an ad for this with some lady trying to make it sound absolutely amazing. It was put in a way that would make you think that everyone and their brother is playing it. :sick:
 
[NO CLICKBAIT] TOP 10 weird Lifehacks to DESTROY any Schreier FOREVER that THEY don't want YOU to know about. Number 7 will SHOCK you.

If you liked this comment please like, comment and follow so you don't miss out on future lifehacks. The support's been great; I couldn't do this without you guys.

Shills Hate this!
 
I'd like to know the real scoop, but if you live somewhere where gaming is simply retail stores then your only perception is what you gather from others online. Working GameStop retail won't tell you anything besides the business world of gaming is just like any other retail store. They're there to sell a product and their product is all they manage. A lot of gamers get their insider stories from GameStop if they're not going online for their news. Patcher seems like a real nice guy. But he has to realize that a lot of gamer customers live under a shroud. One that would never tell them about harsh conditions or anything about the industry had they not reached out somewhere for more information. Living in a small midwestern town, going to GameStop and checking IGN only tells you so much. SO if you put that into words, that's all the information you have. Criticize someone or teach them something. I think he should also try and educate his viewers (including those here on NeoGAF).






I saw an ad for this with some lady trying to make it sound absolutely amazing. It was put in a way that would make you think that everyone and their brother is playing it. :sick:
Yeah. I’ve noticed that and amazon e books
 

prag16

Banned
Excuse my potential ignorance here. I'll frontload this by stating that I haven't worked in game or software development here, but I don't really understand what makes crunch a complete inevitability.

For examples sake, lets say a team works 1000 hours on a project prior to crunch, and then an additional 300 crunch hours, how is that different from working the total 1300 hours entirely in a non-crunch environment? Especially given the nature of crunch (or heavy overtime in any job for that matter) leading to burnout and making additional hours less productive than regular hours.

From my understanding of what I've read of crunch in the industry, a lot of it boils down to the same aspects as overtime in any competitive industry, in that even if it's not "forced" by contract, the competitive nature of jobs in the industry means that anyone looking to climb the ladder absolutely has to put in all the extra hours possible to have any chance at all of moving up, as there will always be others willing to put in those hours, and those people will get preferential treatment.
It's the nature of a software product. Any project sufficiently large and complex will NEVER and can NEVER be perfect. There will always be nice-to-haves that don't make it. There will always be bugs. Always. Maybe sometimes you can finish early and run into less difficultly than you plan for. Fortunately at my company, if that happens we call it a win and move on; worst case fix some low priority bugs, however often not because any change is considered a risk since we are in the health care / patient monitoring industry. But the impulse will often to be "well what else can we cram in here'. Often finishing early is considered a "bad" thing because it means you didn't do all you could do.

That said those instances are rare and there's never NOT at least SOME degree of crunch. And I'll echo autoduelist autoduelist ; good management can only go so far; there are so many variables. It's not like churning out X amount of widgets. I've experienced both good and bad management in this area. The biggest problem is typically product people who don't understand/appreciate the technical side of things enough and set unrealistic timelines. These are also the types of people where if the schedule seems "light" at any point or padded too much for contingencies, will have an endless wishlist of things to add along the way (scope creep or feature creep). I've also had experience with technical leads who are people pleasers and doormats who can be strongarmed by said product people into agreeing to unrealistic expectations.

It's never as simple as "if you're doing 1000 regular and 300 crunch hours, just do 1300 regular hours"! Best laid plans. Those who work in software understand how this works. The "work to do" is never 'finite' the way it is in almost every other industry.

But at the same time if any company (in any industry) is "crunching" for more than 25% of the total development cycle (e.g. the example of 9-12 months of crunch for a three year game development project), you're doing it wrong. If it's a one time thing... okay but it seems to happen for a large chunk of AAA games. Unions are not the fix though. This will only increase costs, decrease quality, and extend timelines. All that'll get passed on to the consumer via higher prices.

Granted I also know that consumer software can be trickier. You need millions to lay out $60 for your product. In a lot of ways it's easier to have, for instance, have a few big hospital systems pay you a few million dollars each especially when your product is not strictly a luxury item.

Bottom line, Pachter and Schreier are probably both right, to an extent. As are autoduelist and Panajev2001a.
 

STARSBarry

Gold Member
I am of the opinion that why the leak happened dousent matter, like how is having the moral high ground with "buh you should pay your employees" important in the context of what the leaked details actually mean? I think for once everyone should step back and just ask themselves if they want to play the game knowing what happens within it, yes or no, and then once that part is agreed upon then look at how and why it leaked, there separate issues not the same but people seem to be arguing over the fact that if B is not true then it completely validates A and vice versa.

Naughty Dog had horrific crunch forcing people to work 7 day weeks, 14 hour days to get this thing out the door, that should be bad enough if you want to rant about bad business practices, if ND paid staff during cornoa does not exempt them from being a shitty place to work for, nor does it invalidate the feelings of people who no longer want to play the game after the leaks.
 
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iHaunter

Member
Anti-SJWs coming into this thread thinking it's going to validate their TLOU2 leak conspiracy theories by debunking what Jason found out:
7BRj.gif



If Jason is a shill and he was lying about ND like Patcher is suggesting, who was he shilling for? Microsoft? Nintendo?

You don't necessarily need to shill for anyone in particular. My bet is on Microsoft though as they're severely lagging behind in console and game sales. Drama gets eyes to sites.
 

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
Michael "PS5 is so powerful, it's going to cost $800+" Pachter? Michael "Xbox One is going to outsell Playstation 4" Pachter? The guy that would make more reliable and accurate predictions if he just tossed a damn coin. That guy should be more reliable than the most renowned investigative journalist in this industry? Come on.
 

JLMC469

Banned
Guys come on, we have to wait and see what industry sources say to Jason.

Still waiting on what they said about the PS5 btw...
 

UnNamed

Banned
Patcher is a living meme.
Schreier worked for the videogame equivalent of Buzzfeed.
Don't know who is less reliable.
 
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Anti-SJWs coming into this thread thinking it's going to validate their TLOU2 leak conspiracy theories by debunking what Jason found out:
7BRj.gif



If Jason is a shill and he was lying about ND like Patcher is suggesting, who was he shilling for? Microsoft? Nintendo?
He's access media...
 

Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
And here we go again!

Michael Pachter again. You people been quoting him for more than a decade now.. and he's been right about as much(or less) than a broken clock. If you like quoting analysts so much, why not quote a better one?

I bet ya there are a few posters in this forum, who are not professional analysts, that can do a better job than he does..
 

Hinedorf

Banned
Pachter came across as one completely apathetic motherfucker who's very comfortable in his own chair so you know....fuck everybody else. He even alluded to it with his own ex-coworkers.

This is almost polar opposite of what Jason is trying to write about. One guy wants to rub elbows with *insert CEO of Triple A game company* and the other is directly asking the people involved with the process how that process is going.

This is like you sitting in a meeting with your manager trying to discuss your worth and expecting them to be 100% honest. Pachter has an obligation to himself and the people he blows to refute evidence that would make said blowee's look bad.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I mean he's a financial analyst.. works in the finance industry..

OF COURSE he's not going to support unionization or be anti-crunch lol Both things directly effect the only thing people in finance care about; margins.

I tend to agree though that the outry is ridiculous and partly manufactured by people like Schreier and am confused why gamers really care. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Deal with it.
 

CatLady

Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
I didn't need Pachter to tell me Shreier is full of shit. I never bothered to read his article on crunch at ND because:
1. I don't believe anything he says
2. Because I don't care.

Crunch has always been a part of making a video game. It was never a secret and if employees don't like they are free to go find another industry that has working conditions they find suitable. It's not like these employees are chattel slaves that are bound to the job.

When I had a high paying job in management I worked 70-80 hrs a week with one day off and frequently had to come in on that 1 day off. That wasn't crunch that was the permanent hours required for the job. I knew what I was getting into when I took the job and if I didn't like it, I was always free to go find some other field.
 

oagboghi2

Member
Yes, you can. Nobody forces you to work at a company during crunch. Absolutely nobody.
Is it easy to change jobs? No.
Is it possible you have to move to a different area to change jobs? Yes.
Will you have to deal with the crunch while you look for new things? Yes.
Is it possible you won't find another similar job and might have to change into a different kind of job? Certainly.

Rep on a CV is also horribly overrated. Most people who actually know what they are doing will look at a person's capabilities, not who their last employers were.
Admittedly, HR people often have no clue what they are actually doing/recruiting for, so those might actually just look at big names on a CV...

Nobody says it's easy, but people are all too eager to claim that somehow people are forced to endure months-years-long crunch, and that's just nonsense.
People are often simply not willing to move out of their comfort zones to find a better job. That's a conscious decision on their part, not something that is forced upon them from above.
"But all my friends live here!" - well, tough luck, live isn't fair. Deal with it.

All of that said, I fully agree with the sentiment that prolonged periods of crunch are 100% a management failure. Some short crunch times are pretty much unavoidable in most projects no matter how well you plan. But when it reaches "for weeks" or "for months" levels, the people in charge should be fired.
1000x this. This idea that you can't just leave is insane. People stay in crunch becuase there is something they are getting. Maybe it's the job security, maybe they don't want to go job hunting again, maybe they believe in the project, whatever but the onus is on the employee at a point.

Pachter is right, and his right that nothing will change at ND becuase no one really cares. They will virtue signal on Twitter though
 

Neo Blaster

Member
Michael Pachter destroys Jason Schreier on Naughty Dog expose...

The gist..
  • Michael knows the people on the inside, never heard of such claims.
  • Schreier Is motivated by selling tabloid news
  • Not hard to find disgruntled company ex-employees to support narrative
  • Company doesn’t take Schreier seriously, no need to change culture
  • If you don’t like it work elsewhere
For your entertainment....


So, Pachter-wise, Jason is vindicated...
 

Mod of War

Ω
Staff Member
Fuck off with you console war bullshit
Maybe if you weren't a fucking idiot who does nothing on GAF but do one sentence drive-by shit posting all the time, you'd notice that what I said has nothing to do with console warring.

Who was Jason shilling for when he penned the article about crunch at ND?

Both of you cool off with the overly aggressive theatrics.
 

eot

Banned
So many shitty takes here, from people who clearly didn't watch the video. What's with the hate boner for Schreier anyway? If you're gonna make a thread trashing him at least have an OP that supports him.
 

DilWSTS

Member
isnt Pachter the dude who claims stuff every year and is nearly always wrong? Like a gaming conspiracy theorist
 

Sign

Member
"PACHTER DESTROYS SCHREIER!!1"

*watches Video*
*Pachter politely stating a slightly differing opinion*

:/

Ahh, the Ben Shapiro approach to Youtube video naming conventions.

Michael Pachter OBLITERATES Jason Shill-reier with FACTS and LOGIC.
Michael Pacht-Man BENDS Jason Schmuck-reier over the table of ENLIGHTENMENT and BLASTS him into the PLEASURE ZONE of REASON.
Michael Pachter DECIMATES Jason Shriek-reier with GALE FORCE WINDS of RATIONALITY and THOUGHT.
Michael Pachter BURNS and SALTS Jason Stuckup-reier's land with ARTICULATE and WELL-MANNERED DEBATE.
 
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