kuncol02
Banned
I definetly don't want bugthesda to have that low level aces to my device.
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BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
I don't think you really understand what is being said. SRAM and DRAM are two different things. My original reply included someone else that questioned whether the SRAM in the IO Complex on the Main SoC was what the PS5's custom flash controller was using in the same way it would use DRAM.
I doubted it as it's remote from the flash controller, and it will most likely be used by the decompression block or other hardware accelerators in the SoC.
No it isn't. The SRAM is in the main SoC. The flash controller connects to the main SoC over 4 lanes of PCIe 4.0.
Never said you could. Again you don't seem to understand what is being said.
I think you don't understand what is being talked about when you say the SRAM is in the controller,
Care to link to the patent? You may have misunderstood it also.
Because bandwidth is affected by latency overheads in new IO actions being performed. Having a flash mapping table that relates logical location to physical location (that is handled by the controller) resident in shared system memory over PCIe means the latency increases.
It's the difference between top speed and acceleration, and how that relates to distance travelled over a unit of time. A sequential read is just a drag race. Lots of random reads (which is what is required to eliminate large contiguous blocks of repeated data) means lots of starts and stops on that same drag strip.
Having to go over a shared PCIe bus to access shared system memory to see how a logical address relates to a physical address that the flash controller itself decided on is inefficient and adds latency, which in the end affects final throughput over time with lots of random reads being done.
Source? Or did you mean the PS5 controller's DRAM , assuming it too has some?
Where that mapping table resides directly impacts random read performance/IOPS. The SRAM in the IO Complex of the Main SoC (as shown in Cerny's slide) is distant from the flash controller. It is not on the same die as it, as DRAM would be.
HDD seek times are damaging because the same file can be spread over different areas of the disk. This isn't a problem for SSD once it knows where to address. There is still overhead for lots of random reads where it has to go back to square one and do a fresh look up.
The block size on the medium the data is stored is irrelevant. The latency of where the mapping table is stored is what matters.
The flash controllers work the same on both architectures. It's down to how flash has to store its data for longevity. It's is abstracted and black-boxed from the OS. There is a logical address range and a physical one, and it's up to the flash controller to maintain and persist it.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
You don't just want 5.5 GB/s out of your chips, but a sustained one. NVMe performance can degrade rapidly with heat. Using denser fancier chips needing less channels to hit 5.5 GB/s might end up being much harder to keep at the right working temperature.
A lot has been said about Sony's choice of 12 channels and 12 chips that are themselves seemingly not as stressed as some others as being merely about cost saving. Cerny said 8 channels wasn't enough, and that is mostly likely referring to being able to adequate cool that kind of configuration to guarantee the speeds they need to.
What Cerny/Sweeney/Sony (try saying that fast three times) are trying to do with this kind of speed is change the way render can be done. For that it becomes mission critical that not only does it deliver the speed it does, but that it can maintain those speeds in real world usage. A lot of work has seemingly been put in with custom hardware to try and deliver that.
xacto
Member
We should have gotten it by now, every and I mean EVERY feat of engineering in the PS5 will NOT BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN DESIGNING GAMES.
Sorry for the caps, it's for all the people who didn't get that yet.
FeiRR
Banned
I'm not even trying to discuss it. I'm signalling his employee that this particular drone is malfunctioning.
xacto
Member
We should really have a "facepalm" reaction to the posts, seriously.
DrDamn
Member
Aside from the obvious - go where the games you want to play and the friends you want to play them with are. I was expecting the two machines on a technical level to be very, very similar. Post technical reveals I thought Sony had been hamstrung a little by how they need to do PS4 BC and MS had put out an obviously better machine. As demos and explanations have become clearer I'm impressed more by both and the idea that there are some decent and notable differences between them. Each with their own strengths and approaches.
So I'm excited by both. I expect the XSX to have an edge for a lot of stuff, but the PS5 will shine in exclusives and the type of games Sony like to put out. I planned to go PS5 this year and XSX next (just picked up X1X end of last year). Now I'm thinking why not both?
Bonsaibäumchen
Member
I am not watching any of that.
I hate spoilers and I already spoiled myself to much anyways. I've seen headlines that it looks amazing and gameplay is better than in the first one. I'll just stick to that without expecting to much.
I am however quite sure I'll enjoy it greatly.
Good lord (Cerny) I can't wait to play it and see some more PS5 stuff finally.
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ok, then tell me? What are the games? I cant find much, just something like this:
Games with MEANINGFUL TouchPad Use
Are there ANY on PS4? I'm yet to stumble upon one. One would think it's not THAT hard (for games where it makes sense) to implement for devs. However, I think devs don't see the slightest reason to go the extra inch to do it (especially in multiplatform games - just forget it, it's often not even...
forum.psnprofiles.com
The PlayStation 4’s touchpad and the law of unintended consequences
Button of the month: DualShock 4 touchpad
www.theverge.com
Do any games actually USE the touchpad? - PlayStation 4
For PlayStation 4 on the PlayStation 4, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Do any games actually USE the touchpad?".
gamefaqs.gamespot.com
same with all the nice Switch Controller Features... Why would multiplatform devs use their time and money to use something only a single platform has?
THE TRUTH is and it is A FACT that for the DS4 not many devs used the touchpad. It's the TRUTH.
If not, then please tell me what and how many multiplatform devs used the touchpad in how many games.
And what makes you think that it won't be the same with PS5 DualSense controller? Why do you think multiplatform devs will now invest time to use all those features?
Tiago07
Member
Hey guys, today our Brazilian TimDog. Probably
ethomaz
Fake
knows him (He is famous in console community even in PC too), has been down by Microsoft.
Xbox mil grau
"even Microsoft doesn't like me, f*ck"
Xbox BR
"The content of the Mil Grau account does not reflect our fundamental values of respect, diversity and inclusion. We already demand the immediate removal of our brand from its channels, through social media companies."
ethomaz
Fake
knows him (He is famous in console community even in PC too), has been down by Microsoft.Xbox mil grau
"even Microsoft doesn't like me, f*ck"
Xbox BR
"The content of the Mil Grau account does not reflect our fundamental values of respect, diversity and inclusion. We already demand the immediate removal of our brand from its channels, through social media companies."
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FeiRR
Banned
This is sorcery...
Incoherent.
SRAM is used for mapping keys (file names/ids) to values (block addresses).
Decompression block works in RAM, i.e. RAM-> decompress->RAM
But it doesn't work like that.
Request for a file block comes from the SoC side. Not from the flash side.
INFORMATION PROCESSING DEVICE, ACCESS CONTROLLER, INFORMATION PROCESSING METHOD, AND COMPUTER PROGRAM - Sony Interactive Entertainment Inc.
<div p-id="p-0001">Disclosed herein is an information processing device including a host unit adapted to request data access by specifying a logical address of a secondary storage device, and a contro
www.freepatentsonline.com
It's all in the patent.
Bottom line: there is no point in any DRAM, as it will only add latency.
We seek from GPU/CPU to flash, i.e. latency to CPU/GPU is the winning factor. Controller doesn't seek anything.
Controller just serves requests over 6 priority queues (resolved requests).
That's a PC approach. Because SSD mimics an HDD block device.
PS5 SSD is not a block device to the OS, it's a higher level API that implements k/v store (File Storage API).
Gaming workloads are close to how (R)DBMS work (even in current gen games), on PS5 they implemented that DBMS in hw.
In XBSX it's kind of 50/50 half is in Direct Storage OS-level API and half in hw.
kuncol02
Banned
He has really god point.
Touchpad is almost unused, stupid light make sense only in VR which is late addition to generation (and even there is probably worst possible way of tracking controller) and speaker in DS4 is uselles gimick copied from Wii. Even screen of WiiU gamepad is more usefull that that touchpad. It can at least by used as inventory or map.
From all new things in DS4 only Share button makes sense.
xacto
Member
ok, then tell me? What are the games? I cant find much, just something like this:
Games with MEANINGFUL TouchPad Use
Are there ANY on PS4? I'm yet to stumble upon one. One would think it's not THAT hard (for games where it makes sense) to implement for devs. However, I think devs don't see the slightest reason to go the extra inch to do it (especially in multiplatform games - just forget it, it's often not even...
The PlayStation 4’s touchpad and the law of unintended consequences
Button of the month: DualShock 4 touchpad
Do any games actually USE the touchpad? - PlayStation 4
For PlayStation 4 on the PlayStation 4, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Do any games actually USE the touchpad?".gamefaqs.gamespot.com
same with all the nice Switch Controller Features... Why would multiplatform devs use their time and money to use something only a single platform has?
THE TRUTH is and it is A FACT that for the DS4 not many devs used the touchpad. It's the TRUTH.
If not, then please tell me what and how many multiplatform devs used the touchpad in how many games.
And what makes you think that it won't be the same with PS5 DualSense controller? Why do you think multiplatform devs will now invest time to use all those features?
15 Best Games That Actually Utilize The PS4 Touchpad, Ranked
More PlayStation 4 games make use of the Dualshock 4's touchpad than you might think. Here are the best games that make use of it.
www.thegamer.com
Go play some PS4 games and then come back and tell us about it. Next time do your own freaking Google search if you wanna have answers, stop being facetious and misinformed.
ethomaz
Banned
Hey guys, today our Brazilian TimDog. Probably
Xbox mil grau
"even Microsoft doesn't like me"
Xbox BR
"The content of the Mil Grau account does not reflect our fundamental values of respect, diversity and inclusion. We already demand the immediate removal of our brand from its channels, through social media companies."
This account is what the worst exists in the alt right.
The guy is a joke.
TimDog, Crapgamer, Dealer, etc are good boys compared with what this guy posts.
MS should be ashamed to partnership and sending gifts to him in the past lol
He lose a lot of law suit to other news sites here in Brasil.
BTW Era is now fully focused in him right now: https://www.resetera.com/threads/er...il-grau-forced-to-remove-xbox-branding.88386/
Yeap I know he is Brazilian just like me
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ToadMan
Member
With the introduction of SSD in upcoming consoles, game designed around SSD will ensure that VRAM/RAM is constantly kept full of immediate data that will be required for the next 1-2 seconds of game-play instead of redundant data calculated for 30 seconds every scene which might never get used, this design philosophy means GPU will now be effectively working at ~100% workload most of the time and will rarely have idle cycles compared to previous console generation, as they draw more and more new assets/geometry/triangles available in VRAM(constantly pumped into it from SSD) onto display screen, and with less bottlenecks in console design altogether will further ensure that the GPU will mostly be performing at their estimated theoretical Teraflops limit.
Previous game design philosophy meant the GPU was more likely to be idle most of the cycles due to designing around the redundant data calculation and instead that remaining power was mostly used for pushing higher pixel count through higher FPS/Resolution.
This is indeed revolutionary addition to consoles, hope this design philosophy will positively impact how next wave of GPUs get designed 2-3 years into this upcoming console generation.
ToadMan , correct me if I am wrong.
Yeah that's my take from the Cerny discussion.
So that potentially means 2 things
1. More of the VRAM is available for use on what is one screen right now - that should improve detail through larger texture sizes and more geometric fidelity.
2. In terms of game design, designers aren't constrained by player "real time" considerations - that would be movement speeds, doors/elevators/portals or the other things that seem to appear in games. I suppose it means if those devices are in the game, it's because the designer wants it there, rather than making a game design compromise somewhere to put this things in.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
Incoherent.
SRAM is used for mapping keys (file names/ids) to values (block addresses).
Decompression block works in RAM, i.e. RAM-> decompress->RAM
But it doesn't work like that.
Request for a file block comes from the SoC side. Not from the flash side.
INFORMATION PROCESSING DEVICE, ACCESS CONTROLLER, INFORMATION PROCESSING METHOD, AND COMPUTER PROGRAM - Sony Interactive Entertainment Inc.
<div p-id="p-0001">Disclosed herein is an information processing device including a host unit adapted to request data access by specifying a logical address of a secondary storage device, and a contro
It's all in the patent.
Bottom line: there is no point in any DRAM, as it will only add latency.
We seek from GPU/CPU to flash, i.e. latency to CPU/GPU is the winning factor. Controller doesn't seek anything.
Controller just serves requests over 6 priority queues (resolved requests).
That's a PC approach. Because SSD mimics an HDD block device.
PS5 SSD is not a block device to the OS, it's a higher level API that implements k/v store (File Storage API).
Gaming workloads are close to how (R)DBMS work (even in current gen games), on PS5 they implemented that DBMS in hw.
In XBSX it's kind of 50/50 half is in Direct Storage OS-level API and half in hw.
And now we get to the bottom of the confusion. You're assuming this patent has been implemented in PS5, and are basing everything off that.
That's why you keep talking about the SRAM as being one die with the flash controller, which is shown in this patent, but not what is being referred to as the SRAM when talking about Cerny's slides in the Road to PS5, which is the only concrete information we have, and what "SRAM" meant in this context.
The SRAM labelled in Cerny's slides sits outside of the flash controller die. It is distant from it and unlikely used for lookups.
The SRAM shown in this patent sits inside of where the flash controller is, before the (PCIe) bus to the main SoC, and is likely being experimented with as a way of potentially doing away with expensive DRAM in flash controllers. Whether that made it into PS5 or not is unknown, but also completely irrelevant to the point.
The Cerny slide has SRAM seemingly grouped with the two co-processors in the main SoC IO Complex. It's what this is being used for that is unknown, and the only thing I was talking about when I was mentioning SRAM.
This sits in a different place to what is being shown in the patent images you linked to.
This patent also doesn't extend to half of what you're saying about any file storage API being responsible for how flash memory is provisioned. That is still likely under the control of the flash controller itself, regardless of what kind of memory and custom logic its using to perform its lookups.
WhispersintheWind
Member
While i don’t believe there will be any delays. Unless the World Ends. Sony’s PS5 is rumored and projected to only have 4-7 million consoles available for worldwide release for the first 6 months.
Microsoft’s Xbox Series X is supposedly already been in production for retail console. Microsoft’s Xbox Series X is rumored and Projected to have 10-15 Million consoles available in the first 6 months.
If you want the PS5 you better preorder and pay the whole preorder off. If you are not able to do that. You might be waiting a while before you able to get one.
Now mind you these projections are based off rumors and hear say.
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Tiago07
Member
Kkkkkkkkkkk I cant belive that Era have a thread about him which started in 2018 kkkkkkkk.This account is what the worst exists in the alt right.
The guy is a joke.
TimDog, Crapgamer, Dealer, etc are good boys compared with what this guy posts.
MS should be ashamed to partnership and sending gifts to him in the past lol
He lose a lot of law suit to other news sites here in Brasil.
BTW Era is now fully focused in him right now: https://www.resetera.com/threads/er...il-grau-forced-to-remove-xbox-branding.88386/
Yeap I know he is Brazilian just like me
But seriously people here would be ashamed how is he's level of fanboyism. I can started with he buy every PlayStation Exclusive only to talk bad about it, puts a TLOU's cd in a blender and many other things. At least he didn't spy a game store like TimDog.
jonnyp
Member
No, it's just CGI
ethomaz
Banned
The thread started in 2018 but got some focus this week again.
I just found it because it was constant in the main page yesterday lol
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Rusco Da Vino
Member
People need to read this piece of FUD again
☝
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Aren't both consoles going into full production months earlier than previous consoles that launched in ~November? Even accounting for a "worldwide" launch rather than select countries, I doubt they'll be less consoles to go round.
Call me crazy but I've never pre-ordered a console. With PS4 I just went into my local Game on the second week of release and picked one up.
Its not hard to be honest even for a fanboy like me.
The touchpad was hardly used indeed, more like a gimmick, but It was an attenpt for something different and I appreciate that.
I liked the use of dpad on Killzone
Sinthor
Gold Member
Well, there's still a lot in the technical sense that we don't know about both the XSX and PS5. I wouldn't get too hung up on technical nuances if I were you. Bottom line, are the games available exclusively on one or the other, more your style? Go where you like the games more and/or where your friends are as well (unless or until we get true cross-play multi-player as a standard). That's what really matters in the end. What YOU like. Not what some spec sheet or video tells you.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
PS5 Variable CPU Frequency Offers More Flexibility, Opines Dev
Commander 85 developer Marcin Makaj speaks with GamingBolt about the potential benefits of the upcoming PS5's architecture.
So another dev interview went up, and it is important to note that this dev straight up says he hasn't used either dev kit yet, so take it for what it's worth, but says the PS5 offers more flexibility and expects it to be more developer friendly.
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sircaw
Banned
ToadMan
Member
Again, Smartshift doesn't do anything to clocks - SmartShift is about power (Wattage) and improving performance through the efficient allocation of power. AMD use terms like Cool and Quiet for their variable clock stuff..
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
gamingbolt said:
The guy didn't say anything about what was easier to develop for lol
THE:MILKMAN
Member
While we wait for the new PS5 reveal date (hopefully Friday) how about a little game?
What was your earliest first specs guess for either console? Below is mine from July 2017 for PS5. I didn't do too bad I think....
My PS5 spec guess as of today assuming 2019 or later launch on 7nm:
10-12TF and 8 core custom Ryzen (mobile/cut down) APU
16GB RAM
2TB storage (I'm hoping for some innovation here but just don't know what or how!)
UHD drive (For the capacity more than anything)
$399/£349 in today's money
What was your earliest first specs guess for either console? Below is mine from July 2017 for PS5. I didn't do too bad I think....
My PS5 spec guess as of today assuming 2019 or later launch on 7nm:
10-12TF and 8 core custom Ryzen (mobile/cut down) APU
16GB RAM
2TB storage (I'm hoping for some innovation here but just don't know what or how!)
UHD drive (For the capacity more than anything)
$399/£349 in today's money
WhispersintheWind
Member
They always go in production months before release. Supposedly Sony Production on PS5 got delayed because of a shortage of parts. Sony even came out and said they would only have 3-5 Million PS5 available at launch and the first 3 Months. That was a few months ago. The issues worsened with The Covid-19 outbreak.
I can see The PS5 selling on eBay now for 1500 a console because of the rumored Shortage at launch.
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sircaw
Banned
Ok now this is insane
DO NOT KICK THE HORNETS NEST.
icerock
Member
Ok now this is insane
Folks will still say this is all being said because Tim Sweeney is a Sony shill.
Nevermind, the bloke being worth north of $10B!
The trailer is CG, like the DS TV spot.
PS5 Variable CPU Frequency Offers More Flexibility, Opines Dev
Commander 85 developer Marcin Makaj speaks with GamingBolt about the potential benefits of the upcoming PS5's architecture.gamingbolt.com
So another dev interview went up, and it is important to note that this dev straight up says he hasn't used either dev kit yet, so take it for what it's worth, but says the PS5 offers more flexibility and expects it to be more developer friendly.
For me personally, any dev who doesn't have access to either of these machines, their opinion should be taken with a massive grain of salt. 3rd party devs have been offering some tid-bits here and there, hopefully once the NDA is up, they can talk more freely.
LMAO, this will bring out some really hilarious prediction.
Mine way back in 2018 was:
8 Core Zen 2 CPU
8TF (GCN) RDNA GPU
16GB GDDR6 RAM
128GB SSD + 1TB HDD
UHD Drive
$399
I'm so glad what we're getting is leaps and miles apart from what was being discussed in next-gen threads in 2018.
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sircaw
Banned
It's still so gorgeous.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Ok now this is insane
Before I even read this article I already have a plan to wear my helmet before listening to the next RDX podcast....
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
Gets me in the feels. I am a sucker for a good trailer. I still watch the Superman Returns trailer sometimes. Even though that movie sucked, the first trailer was great (with the OG Planet Kyrpton theme)
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MasterCornholio
Member
Ok now this is insane
Makes Tims comments on how it's only possible with the PS5s SSD make more sense now.
zaitsu
Banned
Ok now this is insane
so they confirmed what we thought - you need PS5 I/O and SSD
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
its cg lol.
sony makes cg tv spots for all their games. death stranding, days gone, uncharated 4, spiderman and gow had similar trailers.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
Ok now this is insane
But despite the premiere third-party game engine company rewriting their IO subsystems around PS5, third-party developers just won't use it and the IO speed is a waste, of course...
Even though it's designed to be scalable, why would anyone bother to scale UP?! Surely you only scale down. They'll just not bother loading in the higher detail assets they already made for what's highly likely to be the most prolific lead platform for next generation.
/s (for the Americans)
Mr. PlayStation
Member
The Last of Us Part II Tv Spot, God of War Tv Spot, Death Stranding Tv Spot, all these have a visual flair a bit above what the actual game looks, like some of the assets in the tv spot have no aliasing blemishes. Almost makes you feel it could be PS5's capabilities in rendering photo realism.
ToadMan
Member
I don't believe the chips are any different in the PS5 - Sony aren't a company who make memory. The custom part is that they're using 12 channels to access the flash.
So I'd assume the silicon is basically "off the shelf" high end flash memory but used in a Sony proprietary configuration. Until we see the hardware teardown (or a reliable leak) I don't think we'll be able to say much more about them.
Uzupedro
Member
Most likely their next tweet will be about the next date, this Friday or this weekend we will know. I believe (and I hope) that it won't be very far, on the 9th or 12th as some people have already said.
Andodalf
Banned
Real Time graphics won’t have the IQ of pre rendered CG for many many years yet.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Member
As an (obvious) qualifier to this; real time graphics won't have the image quality of today's pre-rendered graphics for many many years yet.
The above sentence will be true whenever it is written.
One has 33ms to draw a frame, the other can take hours or even days if it wants to, even using the same hardware.
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