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Xbox Series X’s BCPack Texture Compression Technique 'might be' better than the PS5’s Kraken
- Thread starter greencoder
- Start date
svbarnard
Banned
So when is Microsoft going to start using kraken?
John Wick
Member
A studio with a long history with working with MS have been paid eh? Bittermuch at his finest
muteZX
Banned
Prolly never. HW decoder is a fixed-function unit and I suppose it's not freely reprogrammable to other decompression algorithm.
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Paid nope just put in more work into the better selling console and sku. That's the huge advantage of being the market dominator developers spend time on your platform fine tuning things. The other platform gets the scraps like this obvious quicky PC port. The old it runs fuck it ship it. It is up to Microsoft to find incentives to get developers to spend time on their platform instead of these quicky ports.
Negotiator101
Member
You've made the 13 - 15gb amount up, you've pulled that figure out of where the sun don't shine
In all seriousness stop the crap!
Negotiator101
Member
It is just Control.
FatKingBallman
Banned
I did not. I've even the lowered average number.You've made the 13 - 15gb amount up, you've pulled that figure out of where the sun don't shine
In all seriousness stop the crap!
So, stop your crap
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Negotiator101
Member
Ok, show me where you got it from?
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
It's ridiculous and Sony's silence on upgrade options is unacceptable.
John Wick
Member
Now turn that arguement around when an SX game is better eh?
Knitted Knight
Banned
You could say it's the start of a trend with Control. Maybe... possible...
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Knitted Knight
Banned
So far only IO Interactive is worth their cred.
sainraja
Member
Other posters have more games installed than he is claiming to be able to install and he hasn't yet responded to them.
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S0ULZB0URNE
Member
I barely have 6
Genx3
Member
Doesn't the PS5 version have less RT effects?
sainraja
Member
Well, another poster has like 17 installed on his PS5 with some space left. I just wanted to bring that up because that made me question his statement of only 2-3 games. Unless those are the huge games like COD.I barely have 6
FranXico
Member
I mean, people were OK with saying that about resolution in Hitman 3...
FranXico
Member
I wonder why?.....
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
How Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture supercharge the IO system of the Sony PS5
The Sony PS5 will have the fastest data loading ever available in a mass market consumer device, and we think it may be even better than yo...
cbloomrants.blogspot.com
5.5 GB/s * 3.16 = 17.38 GB/s so he was generous when he said 15 GB/s (Oodle Texture is lossy, BC7PREP aside, and you can vary compression profile to adjust... BCPACK also supports lossy RDO optimised processing and it is how you would go to 6.x+ GB/s I would guess) .
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Negotiator101
Member
Go check the official PS5 spec sheets released from Sony, just stop with the rubbish it's misleading and not attainable in games. Why do you think Sony haven't revised their own spec sheet?
How Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture supercharge the IO system of the Sony PS5
The Sony PS5 will have the fastest data loading ever available in a mass market consumer device, and we think it may be even better than yo...
5.5 GB/s * 3.16 = 17.38 GB/s so he was generous when he said 15 GB/s (Oodle Texture is lossy, BC7PREP aside, and you can vary compression profile to adjust... BCPACK also supports lossy RDO optimised processing and it is how you would go to 6.x+ GB/s I would guess) .
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Rubbish? Do you realise I quoted the blog from the Oodle (RAD Game Tools, now EPIC) people with their figures?
Both MS and Sony quoted average numbers with standard compression, which is why MS quoted 4.8 GB/s of equivalent bandwidth (for the 2.4 GB/s channel) and Sony quoted 8-9 GB/s. This was also out before Sony announced the licensing agreement for Oodle Textures for all PS4 and PS5 devs... almost as if you did not bother reading it.
So, you get angry and shout at people about a topic you have your own conspiracy theory on, demand evidence from others, evidence is provided, your refuse to acknowledge it (shocking I know
), and proceed to shout angrily at people again. Gotcha...
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LisaMariaMartin
Banned
I don't see how this is far fetched. Sony is known to get cozy with studios close to MS. See Bethesda. I mean, that one kind of backfired on them but still.
Ar¢tos
Member
It's not just about Kraken. If you have faster read speed and better hw decompression, you can compress files more to achieve the same result.
Even using Kraken you wouldn't be able to shrink the game so much on Xbox, unless you increased compression quality loss.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Not that simple.
The problem (for the lack of a better word) isn't because of the technique or software (Kraken or BCPack). It's the speed at which the console is able to decompress stuff. Xbox is and will be slower than PS5 in that regard -- no matter what software technology it uses.
In other words, even if both PS5 and XSX compress a game via Kraken, PS5 can still be faster.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Not who you replied to, but the numbers he/she shared were shared by Oodle developers. You can Google.You've made the 13 - 15gb amount up, you've pulled that figure out of where the sun don't shine
In all seriousness stop the crap!
Edit: Just noticed that someone has already shared it.
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Yeah, developers are lying. You are telling the truth.
You should have told Sony, who stupidly licensed this technology. And you should have also told Epic that this tech is "rubbish and misleading and not attainable in games". Epic didn't know this, and they ended up buying the entire company that made it.
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D.Final
Banned
If this is true
Oh boy
svbarnard
Banned
I think you're confused bro, the speed at which the consoles can decompress stuff has nothing to do with the install size of games.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
It does. Here is how:
Suppose the game has to render a scene in one specific room. The scene is fast-paced and will take you to multiple rooms in a 30-second sequence. Each room has different assets that need to be loaded in time. All those assets, say, amount to 1GB.
Now, there are two scenarios:
- The developer doesn't compress any of those 1 GB assets, and all those assets are available on the drive (installed file) as 1 GB. When the scene comes on, those 1 GB assets are sent to the screen for the CPU and GPU to render.
- The developer compresses those 1 GB assets into a 100 MB file. When the scene comes on, the console does not just send the (compressed) files to the screen. It first decompresses that 100 MB file-set to those 1 GB assets and then send it to the screen for the CPU/GPU to render.
If the second console didn't decompress as fast, it would have taken more time to load all that stuff. For example, the first game (with the larger file/install size) would have loaded the game in 5 seconds because there was no decompression to do for it. The second console (with the smaller install/file size) would have taken 25 seconds because it was busy decompressing the stuff first before it could send the data to the screen.
This is what's happening here in Control UE with PS5 and XSX.
Hope it explains and answers your questions.
svbarnard
Banned
Can someone either agree or disagree with this guy's assumption? I mean are you saying the Xbox series x and it's huge memory bandwidth and powerful GPU are being defeated simply because PS5 has a faster SSD? How could Microsoft drop the ball so bad? I mean if games have a smaller install size on a PS5 throughout this whole generation that's going to hurt so bad being an Xbox series x owner.
ColdAfternoon
Member
I'm pretty sure all game textures are compressed. Maybe save for pixel art games as compression can lead to color loss.
CamHostage
Member
Also, don't you need somewhere near 1GB+100MB for the second scenario? Or do you not max at about 900MB if you only have 1GB free memory? The input could be in partitions (100 1MB files, but I believe that's problematic to load as well as it's multiple seeks?) and you could dump packets once decompressed and not need the whole 100MB resident to fill up that 1GB, but to get from compressed files to uncompressed data, both would be resident to get from A to B, right?
FrankWza
Member
Backfired? Deathloop and Ghostwire buddy. If anything it’s the other way around
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Quoting average numbers is probably far more realistic; this is "lossy" compression afterall. Meaning the more you compress, the more detail you lose.Rubbish? Do you realise I quoted the blog from the Oodle (RAD Game Tools, now EPIC) people with their figures?
Both MS and Sony quoted average numbers with standard compression, which is why MS quoted 4.8 GB/s of equivalent bandwidth (for the 2.4 GB/s channel) and Sony quoted 8-9 GB/s. This was also out before Sony announced the licensing agreement for Oodle Textures for all PS4 and PS5 devs... almost as if you did not bother reading it.
So, you get angry and shout at people about a topic you have your own conspiracy theory on, demand evidence from others, evidence is provided, your refuse to acknowledge it (shocking I know
LisaMariaMartin
Banned
Yeah? What if those games are hugely successful and become franchises? Bye bye Sony.
What if they bomb? Thanks for partially funding them.
You have to be delusional to think they are coming out on top in any scenario here. They got their fingers burned badly.
Sorry why?
FrankWza
Member
Then the sequels will be on PS5.
then the 7.5 billion dollar acquisition just became a little less valuable with 2 less viable IPs
while systems are sold to people who will be playing these games exclusively for at least a year. What a burn.
FrankWza
Member
use whatever emoji you want. But you can either root for both of these titles to do well this year, or you can root against Microsoft. Your choice.
LisaMariaMartin
Banned
I hope they are good to be honest. I will try them on Game Pass next year!use whatever emoji you want. But you can either root for both of these titles to do well this year, or you can root against Microsoft. Your choice.
FrankWza
Member
Best $1 you ever spent
The Fuzz damn you!
Gold Member
For PS5 and XSX, decompression of textures isn’t done by CPU or GPU PS5 has a much more powerful hardware decompression block and connected IO than XSX. Additionally, PS5’s block is tailored around Kraken, while XSX’s isn’t. Also also, however much devs compress textures, XSX will only ever be able to pull out 4.8GB/s worth of textures at a time. I’m guessing they could compress further than that just to lower install size but they won’t get any benefit in terms of loading/streaming speed. Given that at this point we’re talking about lossy compression, MS would probably rather keep the install size high and try to boast about higher quality textures.
if we talk about textures specifically, as the i/o system ps5 needs devs to write code that specifically uses its features (such as ssd speed), the same goes for xsx especially now that dx12u are finally starting to take hold. For how the velocity architecture is designed if the code exploits the peculiarities of the machine sfs in conjunction with the decompressors they allow you to load 1/3 of the textures which would probably be needed in the same scene on 1 other console.
"With this insight, we were able to create and add new capabilities to the Xbox Series X GPU which enables it to only load the sub portions of a mip level into memory, on demand, just in time for when the GPU requires the data. This innovation results in approximately 2.5x the effective I/O throughput and memory usage above and beyond the raw hardware capabilities on average. SFS provides an effective multiplier on available system memory and I/O bandwidth, resulting in significantly more memory and I/O throughput available to make your game richer and more immersive."
then no. it's not quite what you think
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
GPU/memory bandwidth have other purposes. Here we are specifically talking about data streaming -- in which PS5 does have a significant lead. That's what the #1 focus of the PS5 is, in fact, as per Mark Cerny's presentation.
More specifically, in my earlier example, PS5 pulls ahead because of more powerful decompressor units. XSX also has a decompressor unit; PS5's are just more and roughly 400% more powerful. That equates into the compressed data speed of 4.8 GB/s on XSX and 9 GB/s on PS5 (which, btw, has been now increased up to 17 Gb/s if Kraken+Oodle textures are utilized effectively).
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
That was a very simplistic example for the sole purpose of explaining the basic concept.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
I explained it with an example above. Please check.
Velocity Architecture is an umbrella term that contains 4 components (one of them is SFS). Because of those 4 components, XSX's 2.4 Gb/s raw speed becomes 4.8 Gb/s compressed data speed. Velocity Architecture or SFS doesn't apply after 4.8 Gb/s to increase it further.
For comparison: PS5's is double that speed at roughly 9 Gb/s (and that was before Oodle's introduction -- which can put it up in the range 15-17 GB/s).
Yeah, nah.
Wrong. SFS apply WITH 4.8-6gb figure of the effective speed of the XSX IO.
This means that if a scene needs 12-15gb of texture data it can be loaded in about 1 sec using the AVERAGE numbers provided by Microsoft. (4.8gb/sec ucompressed x 2.5 SFS)
It doesn't make the IO go above it's weight. But the textures needed are more effectively transfered with SFS.
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