Walter Matthau
Member
_
Last edited:
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Did the Super Nintendo actually win the 16-Bit war?
- Thread starter The Lunch Legend
- Start date
The Lunch Legend
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
This can't be right.
That's like an NBA player averaging 50 points a game. Impossible.
Last edited:
Syphon Filter
Member
SNES had more good action games than Genesis easily, in any genre SNES had Sega beat.
Last edited:
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
Why are you deceptively conflating two different points together?
Addressing what YOU said before, Add-ons were not made to stay competitive, especially for a console that wasn't even out yet when the Sega CD was announced.
The other completely separate issue was quoting a different post you made where you were acting as if SEGA was the only one that had addons when the SNES did too. These are two completely different conversations.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
cash_longfellow
Member
SNES is one of the best consoles ever made, still. Sega Genesis didn’t even hold a candle to it.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
PS1 and PS2 lingered for a long time after their own maker moved on, too. Those slim models made big numbers at a reduced price that allowed them to be affordable in poorer countries long after they made their big splash in the main markets. What’s your point?
If anything, it’s Sega that dropped the ball so fast after they realized Sonic wasn’t a hit anymore and they had nothing against stuff like Donkey Kong Country. And SNES had definitely recovered from the Sonic 1&2 one-two punch by then - I guess having a non-censored Mortal Kombat II and Super Street Fighter II showed SNES wasn‘t the little brother’s console once and for all.
Just look at those graphs. Sega had a two-year start and was still outsold globally in the span of a year. What more do you need?
PhaseJump
Banned
That is bullshit, and I say that as a 90s SNES zealot.
Sega had Golden Axe and Streets of Rage for beat em ups, they dominated the EA sports game comparison or in games like Jungle Strike. The Shmups were second to none, even with PC Engine's lineup against them. The hardware was 2 years older and still ran games without the slowdown that plagued SNES.
Revenge of Shinobi and Shinobi 3 were God Tier in their day. Treasure's games blew away everybody elses. Konami's franchises were better and faster on Sega. Ultimately, where SNES succeeded, Sega usually still had an answer for them.
SNES outsold them in the end, but there's no way Genesis wasn't superior in a number of genres.
MacReady13
Member
I was and still am a SNES/Nintendo fanboy at heart but, in saying that, when the Mega Drive devs took time to make the sound chip sing, it sounded glorious. You will all hear it (for those that haven't) at the end of the month when the Cowabunga Collection arrives and you get to play the Mega Drive Turtles game Hyperstone Heist!
cinnamonandgravy
Member
nobody cared.
Pejo
Member
Yea. SoR2 is one of the all time greats, soundtrack wise, but whenever I hear the words "Sega Genesis" I end up thinking of Altered Beasts for some reason and that godawful """music""". I look forward to checking out the Cowabunga Collection.
In terms of sales, of course.
In terms of "run" I say MD because Sega started in a huge disadvantage compared to Nintendo. Japan was Nintendoland, in US the Master System was a failure. In Europe, though, MS was 1:1 with the NES. So being so close to Nintendo with the Megadrive was a relative success.
In terms of "run" I say MD because Sega started in a huge disadvantage compared to Nintendo. Japan was Nintendoland, in US the Master System was a failure. In Europe, though, MS was 1:1 with the NES. So being so close to Nintendo with the Megadrive was a relative success.
Romulus
Member
You're confused. First, I never acted as if snes didn't have add on hardware. It didn't. It had add on chips without the need to buy another unit.
Sega was well aware of the snes by the time the cd came out. They were absolutely trying to stay ahead of the curve by beating them to the punch.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/SegaCD
The Sega CD came about because Sega heard rumors of Nintendo's deal with Sony to develop their own CD add-on, and also because NEC had just released a CD attachment for their PC Engine console. (Ironically, the SNES CD-ROM wound up becoming an albatross and never saw releasenote ; Sega wasted no time in mocking Nintendo for this in their ads for the Sega CD.) Sega jumped the gun and pushed out their own attachment as a countermeasure: it allowed the Genesis to perform tricks similar to the SNES that would otherwise be impossible with the original hardware, such as Mode 7 effects and sprite rotation.
Last edited:
Sorcerer
Member
Is it though? All of the best Saturn games were left in Japan. Maybe if Sega had the foresight to bring those games to the US...
Last edited:
Walter Matthau
Member
_
Last edited:
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
I’m not talking about lingering around as a cheaper option, while the new console is out.
Nintendo held back and took their time with moving to the next generation. They arrived late with N64, and wound up getting pummeled by Sony. So okay, you “won” the 16-bit generation, only to show up late to the next round and get clobbered.
As for the Genesis stuff, I don’t need charts. I was around for all of that. Saying that Sonic ran out of Steam at the end of the Genesis’s life was silly. Mortal Kombat 2 sold equally as strong on Genesis.
Last edited:
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
I mean among the worst games ever produced released on the SNES. Quality is not the word I would use to describe the state of games on the SNES.
Rubytux
Neo Member
I agree with OP point, SEGA left early the 16 Bit wagon in order to compete with Sony.
Nintendo was left until 1996 with no competition in the 16 Bits. Because of this, Nintendo won the 16 Bit Head 2 Head vs SEGA, but gave a lot of space that allowed the competitors for consolidation in the next generation.
Nintendo was left until 1996 with no competition in the 16 Bits. Because of this, Nintendo won the 16 Bit Head 2 Head vs SEGA, but gave a lot of space that allowed the competitors for consolidation in the next generation.
Last edited:
SkylineRKR
Member
Eventually it must've done it. Sega axed the Genesis post 1995. Nintendo meanwhile pushed SNES further with KI, Yoshi's Island, DKC2 and even DKC3 in late 1996. SNES did well beyond 1995, Sega didn't.
Kiya's Guard
Member
Look at Sawnic, then look at Mareeo
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
SNES slowdown was brutal in the early goings. Gradius 3 and Super Ghouls n Ghosts played in slo-mo.
Genesis was the superior option for sports and shmups.
Last edited:
Physiognomonics
Member
It won in hardware / software sales but it destroyed Sega with its incredibly superior library.
Bragr
Banned
There were plenty of shit games on the Genesis too, but look at the top 50 games for each system, it's a no-brainer.
ShirAhava
Plays with kids toys, in the adult gaming world
I Love Rock 'n' Roll
Member
Since you wrote "Super Nintendo" or not "SNES" or "SFC", you are ONLY talking about the European market aka PAL.
In Europe, there were 5,050,000 Super Nintendo sold VS 9,170,000 Megadrive. So no, the Super Nintendo did not win the "war" in PAL land where the SNES and SFC was called Super Nintendo.
Source
In Europe, there were 5,050,000 Super Nintendo sold VS 9,170,000 Megadrive. So no, the Super Nintendo did not win the "war" in PAL land where the SNES and SFC was called Super Nintendo.
Source
SirTerry-T
Member
Is this thread the cue for Gaf's annual SNES Vs Megadrive/Genesis soundchip Festival. We're about due one aren't we?
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Genesis had some amazing capability when really talented musicians wielded it. Otherwise SNES won handily for me in not just music but sound effects.
The Genesis was good for robot farts and some splat sound.
SirTerry-T
Member
PhaseJump
Banned
This is actually too fucking retarded to think about.
It was called Super Nintendo in North America. SNES is shorthand acronym for Super Nintendo Entertainment System.
Shifty
Member
I oblige.
Oscilloscope view mandatory for that beautiful channel #1 distortion.
SNES may have had the advantage compositionally thanks to its flexible sampler architecture, but the YM2612 can level entire buildings in the right specialist hands.
Last edited:
SirTerry-T
Member
alabtrosMyster
Member
I was a HUGE Sega fanboy in the days and honestly over the years I have come to grip with the fact that the SNES has won this generation. It wold more, had more iconic games (outside of schumps) and lasted longer.
Sega got stupid after the SNES released.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
You shouldn't make replies conveniently omitting that belief out then.
The Super Famicom wasn't even announced when Sega said a CD device was coming. It was announced in 1989, your link is unreliable. This was actually covered in a previous thread. Then they delayed releasing it because they wanted the price to come down and they wanted to have software ready for it. NEC already had a CD out. The Sega CD had nothing to do with the SNES.
It makes even less sense after it came out, once the gad fizzled they kept supporting the thing for another 3 years despite low sales and it failing to cause more people to buy mega drive, the whole line of "the add-ons were NEEDED to compete" is just dumb. Outside half of the reason why they put out the 32X, one was to extend the life of the Mega Drive, two was to have something to deal with the Jaguar, a console that wasn't even out yet.
If you were in EU you were more likely playing games on a Micro than a Mega Drive, but Mega Drive became a good budget option once the Micro industry was starting to die off in the mid 90's.
What?
Which isn't what factually happened, Sega had $60 million wrote off in unsold Genesis consoles in 1996, The Saturn and PlayStation came out in 1994 in Japan and 95 in the US.
The attach rate is wrong, the software sales don't show it either, and downplaying that Saturn two years start in Japan doesn't make sense either.
Sega sold most of it's consoles early, with many of the same games the PlayStation had and just suddenly fell ill and died. Nintendo shouldn't have been in spitting distance tot he Saturn, and if Nintendo nudged a bit more they would have won, they both sold over 5 million consoles.
You're interest in SNES domination to N64 losing in Japan, barely, is also easy explained by the two year head start, and the fact Nintendo didn't have many of the games people were buying PlayStations for, but the Saturn did. The N64 didn't have most of the games the SNES had. The Dreamcast showed that it was Virtua Fighter and Japan finally adopting 3D gaming that aided the Saturn early on, and then that support died with the consoles sales, the same thing happened in the US with Sonic on the Genesis.
It absolutely almost ruined Nintendo. The end result of their CD pursuits was a much larger, relentless competitor - their former CD partner - who took almost all of their third parties away when they entered the market, and has beaten them 3 out of 4 times.
Last edited:
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Saturn definitely has a higher attach rate than the other 5th-gen consoles, tho I don't think it was 15.whatever. Closer to between 9-10, while PS1 and N64 averaged closer to 6-7.
Jenovi (great retro gaming content creator BTW) makes mention of it in one of his videos.
The Sega CD was partially designed with SNES in mind; the earlier prototypes had it functioning more like PC-Engine CD, with little in the way of enhancement hardware. Over time they added more specifications and features to the design, part of which was influenced by knowing certain features the SFC/SNES would likely have like Mode 7 sprite rotation effects.
Not saying Sega had details on Nintendo's inner workings of the time; they just assumed these were features SFC/SNES would have given there was already arcade hardware available for several years prior its release that had them and costs for inclusion of such features at the hardware level would have likely been low enough by the time of SFC/SNES's release to do it.
I mean it's a discussion about video game consoles of that generation; microcomputers were more popular but that doesn't factor into the conversation whatsoever, it's a completely different gaming format of the time.
It's kind of like someone talking about the best graphics from microcomputers of the era and then someone coming in saying they had nothing on the best arcade boards of the period.
I think when it comes to N64 in Japan you have to keep in mind that there were certain expectations everyone had. To go from ~ 17 million SFCs to barely over 5 million N64s gen-over-gen is a horrible look, there's no other way about it. Meanwhile, Sega went from a distant 3rd in Japan with MegaDrive to a pretty decent 2nd, with a system that they essentially stopped supporting in the region in late 1998 (meanwhile, Nintendo still actively supported the N64 in Japan up through 2001, a full three additional years, until Gamecube's release).
One saw one of the biggest drops gen-over-gen in a territory ever within the industry, the other saw enough of a gain in that same territory to beat the company which had outsold them almost 6:1 just the generation prior. And that's keeping in mind they did that with a system that effectively winded down by late 1998, and the other system had roughly three more years active on the market but still failed to catch them in units sold (for the Japanese region).
AFAIK, Saturn and PS1 sales in Japan were relatively close for the first year or so, although there are some discrepancies because while Sony reported sold-through Sega reported sold-in (to retailers). However the gap didn't really start growing until games like RE and especially FF VII showed up. Games like those, and those in similar vein, that weren't present or plentiful enough on Saturn.
It's true though that VF basically carried Saturn in Japan (as did VF2) and those were the only games for Saturn in the territory that sold as huge volumes, but I think you're overselling Japan's adoption of 3D gaming being what really aided Saturn in Japan early on; unlike the West, Japan actually still cared about 2D games at retail, and the arcade scene was a lot stronger/healthier over there.
Last edited:
Shifty
Member
For the sake of balance, here's a high-caliber SNES banger too:
Couldn't find an oscilloscope of it, but check out those syncopated drums. Cracking stuff.
It's amazing how soloed Technosoft tracks could be the entire soundtrack of a lesser game.
Not to mention the several tons of quality bonus tracks that they composed in full and then relegated to the sound test. Baller.
Couldn't find an oscilloscope of it, but check out those syncopated drums. Cracking stuff.
It's amazing how soloed Technosoft tracks could be the entire soundtrack of a lesser game.
Not to mention the several tons of quality bonus tracks that they composed in full and then relegated to the sound test. Baller.
Last edited:
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
You might actually be induced on some bad drugs if you think Axeley is superior to TFIV from a gameplay POV.
Romulus
Member
Your first response doesn't make sense, but I'm not sure what you're saying here. Something being announced in 1989 does not mean a direct competitor doesn't have knowledge of it. This has been known forever.
https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Sony#SNES-CD_and_PlayStation
It makes perfect sense, not only was SNES coming, they were coming with a CD add on and Sega needed to respond.
Last edited:
cinnamonandgravy
Member
Nintendo fanboys must = nobody
The rest of us cared a lot
i dont know, have you actually read the article?
Shifty
Member
Lord no, I just like the music. Any other 16-bit shmup is going to have a hard time competing when TFIV is so tight.
And that's to say nothing of awesome moments like stage 5A, where an entire fleet of TFIII ships get wasted by ORN to establish powerlevels for the player's Rynex and new big bad, before equipping you with a superweapon and hightailing it out of there.
Technosoft were doing DBZ storytelling before Dante and Platinum were even a twinkle in Kamiya's eye, masterful
Last edited:
Chiggs
Gold Member
Oh, it wasn't just the early goings. Developers just realized the SNES had one of the shittiest CPUs on the market, and so they started compensating by putting add-on chips, like the SA-1, into SNES cartridges to help with processing.
SNES's power is such a myth. It had good audio, a nice color palette and hardware scaling and rotation, but the CPU was a mess.
What add-on chips are you referring to? The one for Virtua Racing? That's one game. The SNES had scores of them!
List of Super NES enhancement chips - Wikipedia
Here's one particularly egregious example:
Unbelievable what a piece of shit the SNES is once you start to research it.
Last edited:
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
Sony was always going to make a system, they had already attempted to partner with Philips for the same thing. Not going with CD and going for carts did more damage than incorrectly blaming Nintendo for Sony creating their own machine. People believe for some reason that Sony and Nintendo continued having a couples quarrel the entire time which isn't what happened. Nintendo had concerns about the CD add on for a long time and the development was taking too long, it would have been 1993 or 1994 if it ever released in the late stages.
It makes a good story to go for the "betrayal" storyline and say that Sony suddenly in less than two years managed to go to numerous third party developers, and create inhouse technology and partner with big tech to come out with a system 50% more powerful than the 3DO but those headlines aren't always true on the surface.
I don't know why you keep messing with posts.
But event hat aside you are trying wayyyy to hard to pretend that Sega "needed' add ons to compete and you have yet to prove this, you are making very poor arguments to support the claim. Sega was not aware of what the SNES would be, it is also very unlikely that Sega announced the Sega CD in 1989 s coming, to compete with a prototype that was shown in 1991 and hinted at in 1990, but then delayed the Sega CD until 1992. You got to use your head sometimes brother, that doesn't make any sense. If Sega CD was because Sega was scared o super secret inside knowledge of technologies not even shown then they would have released the Sega CD earlier to drive sales as they would have not seen a delayed launch in other territories of the Super Nintendo outside of Japan so it would have been ready at least by 1990, instead it's more likely Sega saw an opportunity to use the Sega CD against NEC, in places where they were already winning, like the US where CD technology was constant in the news, newspapers, and magazines every month, and was clearly a format that everyone wanted. Announced at the same time NEC released theirs at $400 and no one was buying it.
Captain Toad
Banned
There still isn't. Super Nintendo sold a ton more. We knew that then and we know it now.
Captain Toad
Banned
"Not only did Chamberlain, the Philadelphia Warriors center, average a staggering 50.4 points, but also poured in an NBA-record 100 points in a game against the Knicks on March 2, 1962."