Crispy Gamer
Member
The DF weekly has a really interesting conversation at the 1 hour 4 minute mark about teraflops where Richard admits the whole conversation just blew up in its face regarding the PS5 vs Series X
it's a good listen

The DF weekly has a really interesting conversation at the 1 hour 4 minute mark about teraflops where Richard admits the whole conversation just blew up in its face regarding the PS5 vs Series Xit's a good listen
The DF weekly has a really interesting conversation at the 1 hour 4 minute mark about teraflops where Richard admits the whole conversation just blew up in its face regarding the PS5 vs Series Xit's a good listen
The DF weekly has a really interesting conversation at the 1 hour 4 minute mark about teraflops where Richard admits the whole conversation just blew up in its face regarding the PS5 vs Series Xit's a good listen
I wonder what changed?The DF weekly has a really interesting conversation at the 1 hour 4 minute mark about teraflops where Richard admits the whole conversation just blew up in its face regarding the PS5 vs Series Xit's a good listen
Idk but it's definitely shocking to hear... hmmm you know what it could be aI wonder what changed?
Or, TF is not going to be "the whole story," if the 5Pro has a higher TF number. I mean, we always knew that it wasn't, the results were speaking for themselves, but conveniently now he's come around.Idk but it's definitely shocking to hear... hmmm you know what it could be ato Sony for an exclusive on the pro
Alright, why didn't Sony put 4GB of DDR4 for the OS on PS5?No need for condescending tone here. In the end the additionnal ram is used by the OS for some functions so more GDDR6 ram is given to the games. A similar thing could be done on PS5 Pro.
And you are the one telling me I have no knowledge about it? MS can get away with this because their BC implementation is at the software level (with varying level of success BTW). Sony need perfect hardware accuracy, latencies etc for their hardware BC implementation. Besides on XSX they have added memory contention problem with, let's call it, virtual splitted memory configuration. It's not ideal when you need perfect latencies for a hardware BC implementation.
But even so Sony wouldn't do this because it would be too expensive to change the memory bus.
None of us know.so how much weaker will this be (based on leaked specs) than a 7900xtx?
so how much weaker will this be (based on leaked specs) than a 7900xtx?
Fair warning lolThe DF weekly has a really interesting conversation at the 1 hour 4 minute mark about teraflops where Richard admits the whole conversation just blew up in its face regarding the PS5 vs Series Xit's a good listen
Depending on the Pro frequency,the paper specs means it should be as fast as the RTX 4070 non TI.so how much weaker will this be (based on leaked specs) than a 7900xtx?
Of course no one knows for sure but based on the most credible leaks (the 60 CU GPU that is likely based on the upcoming RX 7800), we can extrapolate a little based on the rumored 7800 performance. In that case, a 7900 XTX is estimated to be roughly 40-50% faster than the 7800 (non XT). Also, that'll put the 7900 XT at ~20% faster.so how much weaker will this be (based on leaked specs) than a 7900xtx?
I still can't help but think that this only a thing because Sony thought that MS were going to be doing the same thing with an upgraded Xbox.
Assuming MS aren't bullshitting about not releasing an upgraded Series X, would, I wonder, Sony have abandoned the project if they'd known....
Almost 18 tf how'd you arrive at that clock?Apparently it has 60CUs, @2.34Ghz that makes it a 17teraflop machine, did i do the math correctly?
typo 2.23*Almost 18 tf how'd you arrive at that clock?
Yeah 100% no. Obviously i dont have facts to back it up, just think its too big of a jump. If its even close to that though, be hell of a machine for a midgen upgrade.
@rofif should bookmark it and see how close it gets. I reckon the PS6 isnt too far-fetched but definitely not the Pro.
Either they go 20GB of unified RAM or find a way to make all the 16GB usable cuz if not they can just scrap the console.
Next-gen consoles already have a very mediocre amount of usable RAM for next-gen standards, y'all just fail to realize it cuz it's disguided as "16GB of VRAM".
The PS5 has 16GB of memory, of which 12,5GB are usable. 12,5GB of VRAM sounds good right, but y'all gotta remember that these systems share memory with the CPU too tho, so in reality when you put that amount into perspective it's not really that much usable memory.
A 2023 low end PC already has more usable combined RAM than next-gen consoles if it has a 16GB of RAM + 6GB of VRAM combo.
Add a Pro console with better RT capabilities plus beefier GPU and 12,5GB with lackluster bandwidth speed just won't cut it anymore, even 16GB of usable RAM would be just the bare minimum. And no, having an ultra-fast SSD doesn't make up for the lack of usable RAM.
I would love for MS to actually care on the hardware front because competition is always a good thing. As we get deeper into the generation we learn just how little they actually care and put little thought into the designs. They just want a big number to market. It's pathetic and a disservice to those who buy your products. See the Kepler guy discussing Series X hardware design in relation to PS5. This was already discussed in Hot Chips as well.
Gonna need some proof of that. And even if that was the case, 12,5GB still seems low for the amount of visual features (specially RT) and simulations that current-gen games are pushing, go ask any developer if they wouldn't mind having a few extra GB available to work on. The SSD is overkill, the CPU is decent, the GPU is good, the RAM is lacking on both quantity and bandwidth, go ask any dev around and they'll tell you the same .Consoles don't really need all that much "system memory", VRAM is by far the most important for games. Executable code etc takes up little memory compared to all the graphics stuff. PCs need more system RAM to run everything else going on, and to swap into if VRAM runs out.
60 CUs with 6 CUs disabled. So 54 CUs. Thats 15.4 tflops.Apparently it has 60CUs, @2.34Ghz that makes it a 17teraflop machine, did i do the math correctly?
Nah, thats way too optimistic if you are going by this leak.Of course no one knows for sure but based on the most credible leaks (the 60 CU GPU that is likely based on the upcoming RX 7800), we can extrapolate a little based on the rumored 7800 performance. In that case, a 7900 XTX is estimated to be roughly 40-50% faster than the 7800 (non XT). Also, that'll put the 7900 XT at ~20% faster.
In general, this version of the PS5 Pro GPU should be somewhere between a 6900 XT and a 6960 XT (or a 3080 Ti on NV side). Again, Sony can still do a lot with customization and we don't have what the final clocks will be or how many CUs may be disabled for yields. But this is a general ballpark based on what we know now.
Source: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-7800.c3839
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I'd say the PS5 Pro is basically a 7700XT.60 CUs with 6 CUs disabled. So 54 CUs. Thats 15.4 tflops.
They could get to 17 tflops if they hit 2.5 GHz which is possible on the 7nm cards, so should be possible in a console sized 54 CU GPU built on 5nm chips.
Nah, thats way too optimistic if you are going by this leak.
Even if you get a full 60 CU GPU running at 2.23 GHz, thats still 17 tflops. So somewhere between a 16 tflops 6800 and 20 tflops 6800xt.
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For them to end up between a 6900xt and 6900xt they have to hit 22 tflops and they are not gonna get there with a 54 or even a 60 CU GPU in a console. Maybe if it was 72 CUs, but that doesnt seem to be happening.
The small 576 GBps vram bandwidth tells us that sony is looking for a modest increase in computing power. Remember on consoles, that bandwidth is shared with the CPU and will not be enough for 4k 60 fps on big AAA titles.
Lets just pray for an IPC increase because if its just RDNA 3.0 and 30 WGPs, you arent even getting a 20 tflops 6800xt, let alone something between a 6900xt and 6950xt.
Doubt they would hit 2.6 Ghz in a console though.I'd say the PS5 Pro is basically a 7700XT.
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Alright, why didn't Sony put 4GB of DDR4 for the OS on PS5?
The only thing about BC on PS4 Pro was number of compute units and clock speeds. There is nothing on the internet where Mark Cerny said memory latency affects BC.
In fact, GDDR6 latency on PS5 is pretty good, measuring in ns.
GDDR6 = 145ns / 246ns
DDR4 = 74ns / 123ns
AMD 4700S Review: Defective PlayStation 5 Chips Resurrected
Latency measurements vary based upon the type of access pattern and test depth used, and here we can see that AIDA, which measures to a 64MB depth, measures GDDR6 latency at 145ns. That's roughly twice the Ryzen 7 4750G that measures at 74ns with stock DDR4-3200 memory.
Using a memory latency tool created by Lamchester (from chipsandcheese.com) that measures to a 1GB depth, we recorded peak latencies of 246ns for the 4700S with GDDR6 memory, and 123ns for the Ryzen 7 4750G with stock DDR4-3200.
 The benefits of unified memory outweighs split memory.
If there is anything that's needed, is more CPU L3 cache.
I'd agree but using a 256bit bus (and probably no GPU L3 cache). But the last thing we don't know is the clocks. Remember that for Ariel they initially made all their native tests at 2ghz but then clocked the retail console at 2.23ghz. I think we'll probably have a nice surprise here.I'd say the PS5 Pro is basically a 7700XT.
With dynamic clocks they certainly could. For reference the 5700 has a game clock of only 1.623ghz and can be only luckily overclocked to 2ghz or so on PC. Here the 7700XT has an official game clock of 2.6ghz, which is I think the floor for PS5 Pro GPU clocks.Doubt they would hit 2.6 Gz in a console though.
I can see them going for around the game clock.Doubt they would hit 2.6 Ghz in a console though.
Do you believe the Pro is going to have 128 ROPs? With the 3 SEs, I'd assume the ROPs would be 96 and clocked minimally at 2.23 GHz.I'd say the PS5 Pro is basically a 7700XT.
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Gonna need some proof of that. And even if that was the case, 12,5GB still seems low for the amount of visual features (specially RT) and simulations that current-gen games are pushing, go ask any developer if they wouldn't mind having a few extra GB available to work on. The SSD is overkill, the CPU is decent, the GPU is good, the RAM is lacking on both quantity and bandwidth, go ask any dev around and they'll tell you the same .
Easier to feed 96 ROPs than 128.Do you believe the Pro is going to have 128 ROPs? With the 3 SEs, I'd assume the ROPs would be 96 and clocked minimal 2.23 GHz.
They could get to 17 tflops if they hit 2.5 GHz which is possible on the 7nm cards, so should be possible in a console sized 54 CU GPU built on 5nm chips.
Second I heard him saying `i dont know what this console is for or who its for`... I stopped watching.This is such a vapid discussion with some of the most laymen takes ever from John. Apparently it just occurred to him that this console would be used to increase framerates of base ps5 games. He was under the impression that devs would rather target the ps5 pro specs as the baseline. AS IF they did that last gen with the pro consoles or even the first three years of this gen when 99% of the games were cross gen with X1 and PS4 as base.
Richard was a bit better but John kept pulling him into the nonsensical 8k discussion. Be smart. its marketing talk, dont even talk about it. It's crazy how they have been in the industry for 20 years and have zero sources of their own who could corroborate this leak even if its off the record.
The discussion in this thread and on gaf is much more detailed and ineresting than their 20 minute talk. Its clear DF is absolutely clueless about these midgen consoles despite covering them for the last 7 years. We have one fucking outlet who covers this tech specs on consoles and they spent most of it wondering how sony would market it now that 4k is no longer marketable. As if the PS4 Pro supporting 4k prevented Sony from marketing the PS5. Who gives a shit? it's a Pro consoles. People who want newer consoles will get it. it's not rocket science.
At one point, they bring up how having MS release a pro console would make it so that devs have to support five consoles. 2 PS and 3 Xbox. As if, they didnt just spend the last 3 years covering games with 3 PS versions and 4 xbox versions along with any switch or PC port. Why would devs draw the line at mid gen refreshes when they went out of their way to support last gen consoles?
This is so dumb. Just really boring discussion that doesnt add anything to the topic. Just one bad take after another.
It's almost like he's trying to feed a certain base or social media war narratives. Trying too hard.Second I heard him saying `i dont know what this console is for or who its for`... I stopped watching.
I mean come on...no one is actually that stupid. To now hear that he kept saying 8k and 8k... just makes me happy I stopped watching that shit.
Dude I posted the source for why the PS4 Pro has that 1GB of RAM. Are you say Sony themselves don't know what they did?This is pretty much a speculation thread. You, along with mend anyone else right now is just speculating.
The fact is this, the PS5 has two pools of RAM. 16GB GDDR6 and 512MB DDR4. This is important because it ties into the many overlaps between the PS5s design and the PS4. The PS4 had 8GB of GDDR5 and 256MB of DDR3. How can you not see the similarities?
The PS4pro, kept the GDDR5amountthe ame, but increased the 256MB of DDR3 to 1GB. Doing so, and shifting more of the core os from GDDR to DDR, is a cheap way of giving the system more RAM.
Why you are insisting, that Sony will somehow not just do the same things again now wth the PS5pro is beyond me. And who is talking about spit pools? Increasing the RAM that is already in the system from 512MB to 2GB or even 4GB, mans that th 2.5GB of RAM used for the OS from the 16GB of GDDR6, can be freed up. They did the exact same thing with the PS4pro. This literally means that with the exact same bus width, exact same number of GDDR6 chips, exact same amount of GDDR6 RAM, devs now get as much as 2GB extra to work with on the PS5pro. And increasing the 512MB of DDR4 RAMto @GB...is the most cost-effective way of doing that.
Its about costs. This is why sony wouldn't have done this at the launch of the PS5, and this doesn't mean they won't also try something like increasing CPU cache. If anything, that die investment, makes more sense than adding in two more GDDR6 bus channels and two more chips of GDDR6.
60 CUs with 6 CUs disabled. So 54 CUs. Thats 15.4 tflops.
They could get to 17 tflops if they hit 2.5 GHz which is possible on the 7nm cards, so should be possible in a console sized 54 CU GPU built on 5nm chips.
Nah, thats way too optimistic if you are going by this leak.
Even if you get a full 60 CU GPU running at 2.23 GHz, thats still 17 tflops. So somewhere between a 16 tflops 6800 and 20 tflops 6800xt.
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For them to end up between a 6900xt and 6900xt they have to hit 22 tflops and they are not gonna get there with a 54 or even a 60 CU GPU in a console. Maybe if it was 72 CUs, but that doesnt seem to be happening.
The small 576 GBps vram bandwidth tells us that sony is looking for a modest increase in computing power. Remember on consoles, that bandwidth is shared with the CPU and will not be enough for 4k 60 fps on big AAA titles.
Lets just pray for an IPC increase because if its just RDNA 3.0 and 30 WGPs, you arent even getting a 20 tflops 6800xt, let alone something between a 6900xt and 6950xt.
"Sometimes I think we can be guilty of ascribing too much rationality to gamers," Ryan explained. "People just want the best. Maybe they just want to future proof? I think we see the same thing from Apple customers too — there are people that want the best that you can buy."
I get what you're saying but in reality faster storage doesn't make up for the lack of total available memory, sure I can swap out 12,5GB fast enough, but what if I wanna have more than 12,5GB worth of data at a given time? I simply can't.Faster storage means you mean less memory, because you don't need to preload as much data long before you actually need it
One thing Richard did bring up was Cernys checkerboard chip in the pro. Cerny should put in a next Gen checkerboard chip but this time use dlss style machine learning instead. I don’t trust amd to have their rt fixed by next year and i doubt Sony would allow them to increase the size of the die to have dedicated rt cores like nvidia anyway. But a separate chip to do a dlss pass like he had for his checkerboard solution might be way more important than a few extra tflops . Even a 15 tflops gpu could be in par with a 20 tflops 6800xt if it supports dlss2.0 caliber upscaling.I think we are getting 17TF minimum with some ipc gains and RT gains to get to around 20TF
One thing Richard did bring up was Cernys checkerboard chip in the pro. Cerny should put in a next Gen checkerboard chip but this time use dlss style machine learning instead. I don’t trust amd to have their rt fixed by next year and i doubt Sony would allow them to increase the size of the die to have dedicated rt cores like nvidia anyway. But a separate chip to do a dlss pass like he had for his checkerboard solution might be way more important than a few extra tflops . Even a 15 tflops gpu could be in par with a 20 tflops 6800xt if it supports dlss2.0 caliber upscaling.
That said, i have no idea if that needs to be part of the gpu or not which would increase the size and the cost of the chip. I think the tensor cores used by dlss2.0 are on the same gpu die.
Yeah I've got cringe shivers every time heard 8k ;dThis is such a vapid discussion with some of the most laymen takes ever from John. Apparently it just occurred to him that this console would be used to increase framerates of base ps5 games. He was under the impression that devs would rather target the ps5 pro specs as the baseline. AS IF they did that last gen with the pro consoles or even the first three years of this gen when 99% of the games were cross gen with X1 and PS4 as base.
Richard was a bit better but John kept pulling him into the nonsensical 8k discussion. Be smart. its marketing talk, dont even talk about it. It's crazy how they have been in the industry for 20 years and have zero sources of their own who could corroborate this leak even if its off the record.
The discussion in this thread and on gaf is much more detailed and ineresting than their 20 minute talk. Its clear DF is absolutely clueless about these midgen consoles despite covering them for the last 7 years. We have one fucking outlet who covers this tech specs on consoles and they spent most of it wondering how sony would market it now that 4k is no longer marketable. As if the PS4 Pro supporting 4k prevented Sony from marketing the PS5. Who gives a shit? it's a Pro consoles. People who want newer consoles will get it. it's not rocket science.
At one point, they bring up how having MS release a pro console would make it so that devs have to support five consoles. 2 PS and 3 Xbox. As if, they didnt just spend the last 3 years covering games with 3 PS versions and 4 xbox versions along with any switch or PC port. Why would devs draw the line at mid gen refreshes when they went out of their way to support last gen consoles?
This is so dumb. Just really boring discussion that doesnt add anything to the topic. Just one bad take after another.
I think that site is doing the 7700XT as having 4 Shader Engines, with 16CUs (8WGP) per Shader Engine.Do you believe the Pro is going to have 128 ROPs? With the 3 SEs, I'd assume the ROPs would be 96 and clocked minimally at 2.23 GHz.
The funny thing is that there is already matrix or Ml hardware in the RDNA3 GPU. They even have an AI accelerator to manage them too. But somehow, they do not use it.One thing Richard did bring up was Cernys checkerboard chip in the pro. Cerny should put in a next Gen checkerboard chip but this time use dlss style machine learning instead. I don’t trust amd to have their rt fixed by next year and i doubt Sony would allow them to increase the size of the die to have dedicated rt cores like nvidia anyway. But a separate chip to do a dlss pass like he had for his checkerboard solution might be way more important than a few extra tflops . Even a 15 tflops gpu could be in par with a 20 tflops 6800xt if it supports dlss2.0 caliber upscaling.
That said, i have no idea if that needs to be part of the gpu or not which would increase the size and the cost of the chip. I think the tensor cores used by dlss2.0 are on the same gpu die.
I mean it's all fun speculation for now but everything I've been hearing for the past year indicates that a 2x increase in GPU perf is the target. If it's only a 7700XT/3080 level, then that is nowhere near a 2x increase from the current PS5 GPU (~RX6700/6650XT). For that reason, I'll think we will see something at least closer to a RX6900XT although I can see how the 7700XT as a model makes sense.60 CUs with 6 CUs disabled. So 54 CUs. Thats 15.4 tflops.
They could get to 17 tflops if they hit 2.5 GHz which is possible on the 7nm cards, so should be possible in a console sized 54 CU GPU built on 5nm chips.
Nah, thats way too optimistic if you are going by this leak.
Even if you get a full 60 CU GPU running at 2.23 GHz, thats still 17 tflops. So somewhere between a 16 tflops 6800 and 20 tflops 6800xt.
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For them to end up between a 6900xt and 6900xt they have to hit 22 tflops and they are not gonna get there with a 54 or even a 60 CU GPU in a console. Maybe if it was 72 CUs, but that doesnt seem to be happening.
The small 576 GBps vram bandwidth tells us that sony is looking for a modest increase in computing power. Remember on consoles, that bandwidth is shared with the CPU and will not be enough for 4k 60 fps on big AAA titles.
Lets just pray for an IPC increase because if its just RDNA 3.0 and 30 WGPs, you arent even getting a 20 tflops 6800xt, let alone something between a 6900xt and 6950xt.