Support NeoGAF

[twilo99]

Erm, yeah, it's called a handheld or laptop...

Can't argue there lol

 

[Kdad]

Agree but I believe they ended up losing in the end! Fact is, Sony knew the PS3 was in trouble so what did they do? They didn't give up like Spencer did- they went out and made great fucking exclusives and got people back on board the PlayStation train! They ended the PS3 with some great momentum heading into the PS4. What did Microsoft do? Release Kinect and force it on everyone and halt momentum completely ruining whatever chances their next console had of competing with the PS4.

I said tied just to avoid ruffling feathers around here lol

 

[THE DUCK]

Regardless state of the brand or sales, a videogame service has a much lower ceiling than a regular streaming service. Sony and MS should know that they will hit it around 50 million users so permanently releasing AAA games day one makes zero business sense. There is no more room for growth. The only reason for MS to push for this was to change consumers' habits, but the drop in quality has been so big that people realized it wasn't worth it.

Steady re-occurring revenue streams are extremely attractive. Xbox could still be very successfull with a combination of subscriptions and traditional sales.
The problem is a lack a software that is in demand, not the business model of subs or sales.

Considering the deep pockets, it's actually not too late to change the long term outcome. It's part of why they purchased Activision for so much money. Will be interesting to see if they panick or hold the fort.

I still think they can succeed, work towards two machines for launch in 2026 or 2027, one portable hybrid (for the masses, with a wireless hdmi dongle and controller for tv included) and one elite machine that has to be a good step above the competition in terms of output. (Also includes elite controller and a year of gamepass) Subsidized price wise, if launched with the right games, they could change the long term outlook.

I know this is radical and costly, but I also think they should stop releasing pc games day and date, it's always hurt the console sales and momentum.

 

[Panajev2001a]

You say this BS as if MS isn't trying to actively crash what was a healthy industry to become a leading provider of what's left of it .

What do you think would happen if everyone stopped buying games on other platforms like they have on Xbox?

The return on investment would be so low that no one would be putting big money into new games because it would take years for them to make any money.

Hit the nail on the head, this is the “outspend Sony out of business” plan. The industry was healthy, they could not dominate that way, they are now actively trying to crash it to change it in something else thinking they can outlive the damage and pick up the pieces.

 

[MacReady13]

Hit the nail on the head, this is the “outspend Sony out of business” plan. The industry was healthy, they could not dominate that way, they are now actively trying to crash it to change it in something they can outlive the damage and pick up the pieces.

It’s funny when I hear Microsoft try to say this industry is stagnant- why get into it in the 1st place then? And why is it that it makes more money than music and movies yet it needs reinvention? From Microsoft of all companies…

 

[Alan Wake]

It's too late to turn it around this gen. PS5 is at 50 million which means over a third of the potential console market has made their choice... there's no stopping that momentum. Hellblade 2 and Indy may make a splash on social media and Steam but it's not going to set the console market on fire. Literally the only thing MS could do is buy GTA6 and make it Xbox Series exclusive (no PC launch, no PS5, nothing). I can't think of any other game that would even move the needle.

This is the sad truth. When your console is -15% yoy in its third year, when it should be thriving, and you're being outsold by your competitor 3:1 or 7:1 on all markets, you're in serious trouble. A few decent or even great games won't change that.

 

[NickFire]

This is the sad truth. When your console is -15% yoy in its third year, when it should be thriving, and you're being outsold by your competitor 3:1 or 7:1 on all markets, you're in serious trouble. A few decent or even great games won't change that.

Except Japan. Per the other thread, more like 18:1 there in 2023 (if we round the 18 down).

 

[Alan Wake]

Except Japan. Per the other thread, more like 18:1 there in 2023 (if we round the 18 down).

Of course. But Xbox has never been competitive in Japan.

 

[recursive]

What I think it means is making a cheap $200 powerful console that gets a boost with the cloud

Wasn't the cloud supposed to save xbox one also? And "cheap $200 powerful console" is an oxymoron.

 

[twilo99]

What are they driven by?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

What are they driven by?

Hatred towards Sony, this is historically documented

 

[bender]

What are they driven by?

 

[bitbydeath]

What are they driven by?

He’s either really dumb or thinks everyone else is, could go either way I guess…

 

[envyzeal]

What are they driven by?

it's all about how many studios you have

 

[DForce]

What are they driven by?

More console sales = more players and more subscribers.

 

[Truespeed]

I work with ARM Cpus and they are actually very good for what we do with them. (and look at Apple hardware and the new snapdragons for how they can be pushed) so I'm not knocking ARM cpu architecture for a next xbox - I'm just pointing out that someone like Tom Warren seems to be pushing this now.

Single core Geekbench 6 scores for the A17 and SD 8 G3 are about 2-3x that of the CPU in the PS5 and XSX. They also exceed the multi-core scores for these consoles. Which isn't surprising since these are 2023 SoCs, but I could see the switch to ARM. The only problem would be backward compatibility.

 

[bender]

Single core Geekbench 6 scores for the A17 and SD 8 G3 are about 2-3x that of the CPU in the PS5 and XSX. They also exceed the multi-core scores for these consoles. Which isn't surprising since these are 2023 SoCs, but I could see the switch to ARM. The only problem would be backward compatibility.

That's a big problem these days. The one benefit to games being so expensive and taking so long to make is that I believe the days of clean breaks from previous generation hardware is going to be hard to justify.

 

[Gambit2483]

More console sales = more players and more subscribers.

Everyone knows this, they are just trying to rewrite the rules of the game to justify their abysmal console sales

 

[twilo99]

More console sales = more players and more subscribers.

is this it ?

 

[bender]

is this it ?

My first question is which MAU type is the most lucrative.

 

[twilo99]

My first question is which MAU type is the most lucrative.

The CoD/Fortnite kind... or maybe Warcraft?

 

[bender]

The CoD/Fortnite kind... or maybe Warcraft?

I was thinking more between: console, PC, smartphone, or TV App (and that would be my guess of the order of value the average user on said platforms is worth).

 

[adamsapple]

I was thinking more between: console, PC, smartphone, or TV App (and that would be my guess of the order of value the average user on said platforms is worth).

I would put smartphone first, I think.

 

[bender]

I would put smartphone first, I think.

You could be right. I guess I'm not factoring King into my thinking.

 

[DForce]

is this it ?

Active users across TV, Mobile, PC, and consoles.

If they sold 40 million XS consoles, they would generate more paid users.

 

[twilo99]

Active users across TV, Mobile, PC, and consoles.

If they sold 40 million XS consoles, they would generate more paid users.

Sony has over 120 million, which are mostly console so they must be making a lot from those

 

[twilo99]

I would put smartphone first, I think.

That would be my guess as well

 

[SportsFan581]

Steady re-occurring revenue streams are extremely attractive. Xbox could still be very successfull with a combination of subscriptions and traditional sales.
The problem is a lack a software that is in demand, not the business model of subs or sales.

Considering the deep pockets, it's actually not too late to change the long term outcome. It's part of why they purchased Activision for so much money. Will be interesting to see if they panick or hold the fort.

I still think they can succeed, work towards two machines for launch in 2026 or 2027, one portable hybrid (for the masses, with a wireless hdmi dongle and controller for tv included) and one elite machine that has to be a good step above the competition in terms of output. (Also includes elite controller and a year of gamepass) Subsidized price wise, if launched with the right games, they could change the long term outlook.

I know this is radical and costly, but I also think they should stop releasing pc games day and date, it's always hurt the console sales and momentum.

I agree (not so much about the day and date PC, just because I think they've gone down that road so far already), but they definitely still have the capability to pick up momentum. With consistent software releases.

Nintendo has been in worse spots than MS is now (because they didn't have the sub and PC revenue), and they've comeback swinging. Depends about how much determination is left there. They've put a lot of money into it, and we know that privately they still want to take Sony out, haha. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Crayon]

What are they driven by?

Evil?

 

[geary]

People wont change platforms because they wont leave behind the digital libraries tjey made surring last years and the confort and familiarity of the platform they are in for few years…And also the friendlists. No exclusivity will do that.

Exclusivities might have a chance for people new in gaming with few games in their library.

I have ~1500 games on Steam…I wont move to any other storefront even if they have 10% of their games exclusive.Not even subscribe to gamepass, for the same reasons.

 

[MrTired]

I agree (not so much about the day and date PC, just because I think they've gone down that road so far already), but they definitely still have the capability to pick up momentum. With consistent software releases.

Nintendo has been in worse spots than MS is now (because they didn't have the sub and PC revenue), and they've comeback swinging. Depends about how much determination is left there.

In the Home console market. Even when Nintendo had poor sales with the GameCube & Wii U it had successfully handheld GBA & N3DS.

So when you say Nintendo has been in worse spots that isn't true Nintendo always had a substantial market of people interested in its hardware and software it just wasn't necessarily its home console.

 

[demigod]

I agree (not so much about the day and date PC, just because I think they've gone down that road so far already), but they definitely still have the capability to pick up momentum. With consistent software releases.

Nintendo has been in worse spots than MS is now (because they didn't have the sub and PC revenue), and they've comeback swinging. Depends about how much determination is left there.

Xbox would’ve folded or sold off if it wasn’t for daddy MS.

In the Home console market. Even when Nintendo had poor sales with the GameCube & Wii U it had successfully handheld GBA & N3DS.

So when you say Nintendo has been in worse spots that isn't true Nintendo always had a substantial market of people interested in its hardware and software it just wasn't necessarily its home console.

Yep.

 

[twilo99]

Evil?

Satan himself pictured right there…

 

[Phase]

Sony has over 120 million, which are mostly console so they must be making a lot from those

Why does he capitalize every word in his sentences? It actually makes it harder to read.

 

[twilo99]

I have ~1500 games on Steam…

Geary, you have a problem…

 

[Three]

We know that Xbox has less active users, what you're saying is that the active users they have are less motivated to spend $ on games. I haven't seen that from any information released, please provide links.

MS presented this in court as declining Customer Lifetime Value. Why would there be a declining CLV do you think?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Why does he capitalize every word in his sentences? It actually makes it harder to read.

Every Word Is Important.

 

[SportsFan581]

Xbox would’ve folded or sold off if it wasn’t for daddy MS.

I'm not sure what this means. What would PS have been without parent company Sony. Nintendo was a playing card company. I see being a small piece of a huge company as a benefit to Xbox.

@ MrTired I was speaking from a software perspective, which is generally what Sony fanboys like to talk about. Console and handheld were always completely separate titles before the Switch.

 

[demigod]

I'm not sure what this means. What would PS have been without parent company Sony. Nintendo was a playing card company. I see being a small piece of a huge company as a benefit to Xbox.

@ MrTired I was speaking from a software perspective, which is generally what Sony fanboys like to talk about. Console and handheld were always completely separate titles before the Switch.

You were talking about Nintendo and MS, why you bringing in Sony now?

 

[Windle Poons]

Why does he capitalize every word in his sentences? It actually makes it harder to read.

Boils my piss it really does.

 

[THE DUCK]

People wont change platforms because they wont leave behind the digital libraries tjey made surring last years and the confort and familiarity of the platform they are in for few years…And also the friendlists. No exclusivity will do that.

Exclusivities might have a chance for people new in gaming with few games in their library.

I have ~1500 games on Steam…I wont move to any other storefront even if they have 10% of their games exclusive.Not even subscribe to gamepass, for the same reasons.

You just proved my MS wants to and seems to be willing to take loses to aquire customers - they don't want to leave once the are entrenched.
But you do have to keep in mind, most people don't have that kind of collection, and would leaving behind far less, and mostly games they don't need to play a 3rd or 4th time. That's us hardcore gamers.

 

[Alan Wake]

In the Home console market. Even when Nintendo had poor sales with the GameCube & Wii U it had successfully handheld GBA & N3DS.

So when you say Nintendo has been in worse spots that isn't true Nintendo always had a substantial market of people interested in its hardware and software it just wasn't necessarily its home console.

To be fair, Nintendo was in a bad spot during the Wii U era. That console was an utter disaster and we have to remember that the 3DS struggled too. It did well in the end (although nowhere near the DS) but it did take a a while. During these years Nintendo took losses (for the first time ever...?).

 

[THE DUCK]

I agree (not so much about the day and date PC, just because I think they've gone down that road so far already), but they definitely still have the capability to pick up momentum. With consistent software releases.

Nintendo has been in worse spots than MS is now (because they didn't have the sub and PC revenue), and they've comeback swinging. Depends about how much determination is left there. They've put a lot of money into it, and we know that privately they still want to take Sony out, haha. We'll see how it goes.

I was actually thinking about this more, if you really step back and think about it, if thier goal is really to fuel an exclusive box, they really shouldn't be releasing anything at all on PC.
I mean if you could only buy Call of Duty (contracts deals might prevent this for what, 10 years?), Doom, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Wolfenstein, Starfield, Forza, Gears, Halo, Overwatch 3, Psychonauts, Diablo, Flight Simulator, and more only on xbox that would drive a lot of players over to xbox.
I know people hate to read this, and MS lose a ton of PC revenue, would be evil, etc, but do they want to win or not? People here would revolt, it would last 2 weeks, then they would buy an xbox series Z.

Ok but fantasy above is over, since MS wouldn't want to hurt windows as the main PC gaming platform, which keeps people buying windows, thier bread and butter, but if not for that.........

 

[Panajev2001a]

@ MrTired MrTired I was speaking from a software perspective, which is generally what Sony fanboys like to talk about.

Seeing how gleeful you are about the “MS wanting to take Sony out” (by wrecking the console market), I am not sure you should be the one calling others fanboys .

 

[Baki]

People wont change platforms because they wont leave behind the digital libraries tjey made surring last years and the confort and familiarity of the platform they are in for few years…And also the friendlists. No exclusivity will do that.

Exclusivities might have a chance for people new in gaming with few games in their library.

I have ~1500 games on Steam…I wont move to any other storefront even if they have 10% of their games exclusive.Not even subscribe to gamepass, for the same reasons.

According to leaked docs, almost 50% of PS5 owners have been new to the ecosystem.

Hit the nail on the head, this is the “outspend Sony out of business” plan. The industry was healthy, they could not dominate that way, they are now actively trying to crash it to change it in something else thinking they can outlive the damage and pick up the pieces.

Typical SV playbook. Bleed out competitors than raise the price once you’ve cornered the market. Netflix did the same thing, and then raised the price by 10-20% every 2 years and now it’s almost $260/year for Netflix and will make $6.5B in profit for 2023.

 

[Aloy's Bad Hair Day]

To me the most interesting question is why they didn't abandon the ABK deal when they were losing market share while the regulators did their job, were seeing stagnant growth on console, and could have bailed for a billion (give or take)?

Internal momentum & corporate ego.

Abandoning the acquisition bc console sales were flat would be an admission that the strategy to grow GP through content acquisitions had failed to achieve that, plus I suspect key leadership (Brad Smith) were heavily invested in getting the deal done internally.

Couple that with the very clear disdain the company has for government regulators & you’ve got a situation where pulling out of the deal wouldn’t be possible.

 

[Majukun]

Agree but I believe they ended up losing in the end! Fact is, Sony knew the PS3 was in trouble so what did they do? They didn't give up like Spencer did- they went out and made great fucking exclusives and got people back on board the PlayStation train! They ended the PS3 with some great momentum heading into the PS4. What did Microsoft do? Release Kinect and force it on everyone and halt momentum completely ruining whatever chances their next console had of competing with the PS4.

sony turned the momentum with more than just good games.
they restructured themselves internally A LOT at the time, lots of first and second party games got the axe, a bunch of studios got closed or fused together.

they also found a formula to their games that people got into and was successfull across games, xbox has yet to find it's thing, they need strong leads with vision at the head of their studios and a lot of internal quality control...they got the money, they don't seem to release games particularly fast, there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to release great games, so it's probably about project mismanagement, aka they waste said time and money.
turning halo into a gaas was probably not a great idea either, but that's the style right now, no matter how short sighted it is.

MS also has the added handicap that even before gamepass, most exclusives come day one on pc as well...i never particularly cared for MS' franchises, but if i ever did, i don' need to own an xbox to play them...technically i'm starting to not need a playstation either, but those come way later.

If MS is truly going to focus on consoles I agree. However, if Game Pass is their focus, it does not really help the console industry because the ultimate goal is to cannibalize it.

well the objective of every big publisher is to get a monopoly, it's not reduced to gamepass

 

[Aloy's Bad Hair Day]

Just to be quick:

Nintendo has never been in the same position as MS, even when its hardware sales were lot great, bc they have an unrivalled collection of IPs, which they know how to manage.

MS only got back into gaming (having previously abandoned it bc it was non-core to their business & Gates hated it) because Gates started fretting about the success Sony had with PS1 & Ken K talking up Sony’s ability to put simple PCs in living rooms. You have to remember Sony prior to the mid-00s was a powerhouse of a corporation that quite literally had more money than it knew what to do with, which is why it’s still a bit of a weird conglomerate in todays corporate world.

 

[Baki]

Just to be quick:

Nintendo has never been in the same position as MS, even when its hardware sales were lot great, bc they have an unrivalled collection of IPs, which they know how to manage.

MS only got back into gaming (having previously abandoned it bc it was non-core to their business & Gates hated it) because Gates started fretting about the success Sony had with PS1 & Ken K talking up Sony’s ability to put simple PCs in living rooms. You have to remember Sony prior to the mid-00s was a powerhouse of a corporation that quite literally had more money than it knew what to do with, which is why it’s still a bit of a weird conglomerate in todays corporate world.

Nintendo always had a successful handheld platform.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Nintendo always had a successful handheld platform.

Virtual Boy is the only exception. Then the 3DS had a rough start. Everything else was pretty great though.