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Did the Super Nintendo actually win the 16-Bit war?
- Thread starter The Lunch Legend
- Start date
GamesDontSuck
Member
Depends how you look at it. Snes sold more units so you could say they won. But mega drive was big in Europe and Sega was making a lot of coin too.
But ultimately I guess Nintendo won. Here we are with Switch, Nintendo bigger than ever and Sega is long out of the console game.
16 bit era was a battle. Nintendo won the war. I say that as someone who loved mega drive and dreamcast too.
But ultimately I guess Nintendo won. Here we are with Switch, Nintendo bigger than ever and Sega is long out of the console game.
16 bit era was a battle. Nintendo won the war. I say that as someone who loved mega drive and dreamcast too.
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blacktout
Member
Some motherfuckers in this thread would make Shōichi Yokoi proud.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
None of what you're saying is backed up by facts, you're a fool projecting your imagination into reality and believing it's true. You haven't backed up a single thing you said.
Literally most consumer electronic companies wereit was applicable were pushing CD or adding CD drives to their electronics or had a multi-year plan too, you have no clue how the market was and no idea what you're saying. You look at every decision from a video game fanboy standpoint.
Yes, the biggest electronic company in Japan at the time, which dominated the computer industry in japan by a wide margin including GAMES, in Japan, that was only marginally impacted by the NES since the Japanese computer industry was still big at the time, who was also the biggest semi-conductor in the country or at least a close 2nd, who also was racing with other major companies there and worldwide on CD drives, joining the consoles industry with a NEW generation consoles a year before Sega, and at the same time in the US, was indeed a juggernaut threat. NEC in Japan was also selling as if they released the future and PC engines were flying off the shelves before Sega even released the mark 3, and you couldn't find any because there were shortages.
Just more proof you have little if any intellect, project more than average, and have no clue what you're talking about at all. The belief (which is hyperbole) that NEC dominated Japan with the consoles until they ruined their position and gave Nintendo an out is constantly repeated for over 2 decades for a reason, because that's what it felt like OVER THERE.
But lol Nintendo. You probably thought NEC was some random company off the street.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
There's also the issue of Sony using some of that tech on their Sony Intelligent Discman which was made with Phillips to use the CD-I format, and when Sony supposedly blew their top at Nintendo for going with Phillips, Sony never seemed to have any reaction toward Phillips and continued working with them on various projects.
The whole poor Nintendo was betrayed Storyline and the belief it INSTANTLY led to a console they were already making makes a good story like all the gaming crash myths, but it's not what actually happened.
Not even close, that Wii+DS combo will never be reached by Nintendo again. That alone is 255 million units sold. Which outsold the whole last generation combined DC, PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube.
It was less than 40 million units from outselling DC, PS2, Xbox, GC. GBA. NG combined. With no consoles entry now that's no longer a possibility unless Nintendo starts making phones along with their handheld hybrids.
Not for certain demographics that were being targeted. Several Sega players eventually just left for computers or micros, some went to SNES but not all of them. There definitely were differences in who the software were targeting outside the general audience titles like Sonic, for example, Comix Zone, that's not a SNES audience game.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It may have won in sales, but Sega won in hearts.
JackMcGunns
Member
This post proves how little these things matter. Gamers won!
Funny, that the 16 bit console wars are still active to this day. Even, the 32 bit console wars rage on. Some people miss the excellent games that release due to their stubbornness. I know I did during the PS2 era. I was hooked on Xbox shortly after Halo released. I didn't even own one until 360 released. I was able to get games cheap by then. Anyways, The people that were the ones that to play both consoles were the winners. The losers were the ones that thought the other console sucked without even giving the library of games a try. Sega Genesis's audio wasn't the greatest, but it definitely had it's charm. Play Aladdin on both Snes and Sega. They are both fun and different to play through. Snes you threw apples and bounced on enemies heads like mario. Sega you had a sword and the graphics were closesly animated. Contra Hard Corps has a good soundtrack on Sega, but don't miss out on Contra 3 on Snes.
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Soltype
Member
Are you talking about the end of the 16-bit generation? I'm talking about say December 1991, people legitimately had to make a choice on what system they wanted, no one ever did that with the NES it was a no-brainer.You're right about the libraries that's why I said they complemented each other, if you were serious about video games back then you needed both systems.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
I was talking about 1993, technically the end of the generation was 1992.
As for 1991, you are right there were some who had to make a choice, but there were clear demographic differences back then too. I will say the difference weren't as big in 1991 as it was in 1993 before MK1 released but it was still there.
But this is kind of the issue I have with you saying they "complimented each other" if you cared just about quality games yes, you would get both consoles assuming you weren't gaming on Micros, maybe even throw in the TG16 on the pile for good measure.
But the type of people back then on average that were buying the genesis had no interest in much of Nintendos software output and several of the third parties outside those that were on both that had the same cool edgy tone as games like MK. It's the same reason why Golden Eye 007 had such an impact on the N64 too, people who wanted the less kiddie friendly games and wanted the mature action title.
This is why the SNES version of Killer Instinct was such a big deal, over 3 million sales near end of the consoles life with low software sales out of nowhere. Brought over many Genesis players too which Sega already had few of. Doubled the sales of SNES MKII.
Pegasus Actual
Member
It was Joe Montana's Sports Talk Football though. Madden didn't say shit back thengenesis was the chad's choice console
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
I can't remember 1 person growing up who had both. It was such a life affirming choice. Either / or but never both.
Soltype
Member
I get what you're saying , but if someone who was interested in Genesis' output bought a SNES later or vice versa, they still eventually bought both systems. I don't think everyone that bought a Genesis was disinterested in Nintendo's offerings as much as they were compelled with Sega's. As the years went on the libraries definitely played to the strengths of their systems. When you phrase the situation like that you paint the picture that people didn't want sega's offerings, but that they were just tired with Nintendo's and that's not true.
Genesis came out pretty much 2 years prior, I knew plenty of people with both. Pretty sure we got ours around the launch of both.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
You're right. I moved across the country right when the Sega Genesis came out so I guess I didn't know as many people in Southern California as I did in Philly.
Still the first time I remember friends getting multiple consoles in the same generation was Ps1/Saturn/N64. I guess it was because we could afford to buy them ourselves.
Ev1L AuRoN
Member
I think Nintendo was one of the first game companies that understood that games could be much more than arcade experiences. Nintendo games feel different from Sega's, they were big adventures, balanced gameplay and difficulty, no longer rooted in arcades but being its own thing.
To me, Nintendo won the 16bit era because of its games.
I absolutely love games like Sonic the Hedgehog, Streets of Rage, Shinobi III, Ghost'n'Goblins...
But for almost every genre I think Nintendo has a game as good or better.
To me, Nintendo won the 16bit era because of its games.
I absolutely love games like Sonic the Hedgehog, Streets of Rage, Shinobi III, Ghost'n'Goblins...
But for almost every genre I think Nintendo has a game as good or better.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Some weird arguments going on in this thread.
- in Japan the pcegine killed the mega drive. It wasn’t even close.
- that was the start of internal conflicts between sega of Japan and sega of America because SOA was doing so much better.
- snes was a titan in both Japan and NA
- in Japan the pcegine killed the mega drive. It wasn’t even close.
- that was the start of internal conflicts between sega of Japan and sega of America because SOA was doing so much better.
- snes was a titan in both Japan and NA
Stefan.North
Member
At least we can agree that neither CDi nor LaserActive won 4th gen war.
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tkscz
Member
Depends on what you mean by won.
Sales? Yes, SNES sold better world wide than Genesis.
Profit? Yes, Sega wasted a lot of money trying to keep the Genesis going with attachments that cost more than the genesis itself did. The CD and 32X did them no favors.
Games? Well that's personal and has no answer. They both had a VERY large and plentiful library of amazing games and something for everyone.
Memorability/Nostalgia? See above answer.
Business wise, it was the SNES. Anything else it depends on the person.
Sales? Yes, SNES sold better world wide than Genesis.
Profit? Yes, Sega wasted a lot of money trying to keep the Genesis going with attachments that cost more than the genesis itself did. The CD and 32X did them no favors.
Games? Well that's personal and has no answer. They both had a VERY large and plentiful library of amazing games and something for everyone.
Memorability/Nostalgia? See above answer.
Business wise, it was the SNES. Anything else it depends on the person.
cartman414
Member
It's almost always the neatest and most tidy narrative that wins.
People may like to call Sony the victim of betrayal, when infact they were more like Daniel Plainview at the end of There Will Be Blood.
A.Romero
Member
From what I understand Sony didn't really care either way because the amount of money they spent in that venture was peanuts to the size of the company. Kutaragi was the one who was offended but above all interested in going to video games (which seemed to be the future of entertainment) and convinced Oga to try with Playstation.
As always companies tend to go after the money so if their collaboration with Phillips meant money, they wouldn't let a slight offense get in the way...
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
This depends on how one views the software sales of the Genesis through its lifespan.
Some weird arguments going on in this thread.
- in Japan the pcegine killed the mega drive. It wasn’t even close.
- that was the start of internal conflicts between sega of Japan and sega of America because SOA was doing so much better.
- snes was a titan in both Japan and NA
Yep,
Mattel ran on that, and Coleco had that too, Nintendo when it first came out with the Famicom was mostly arcades until later after developers started putting chips in the cartridges and was still mostly arcades but had a lot more longplay games too. Atari also knew that, which is why they wee working on PC ports for the 5200 that didn't get released until Atari Corp formed in 1985/86, as well as games delayed developed for the 7800''s original launch in 84. I think the narrative that pre-Nintendo is stuck in the arcade is just as historically damaging as "games wouldn't exist without NES" talk.
With that said it's undeniable that Sega cling to arcades to sell systems longer than everybody else, even Atari, although they did go a bit backwards a bit on the Jaguar, but in that case those would be cheaper games to produce so it made sense they pushed arcades again, they did have several non-arcade big titles though.
But I don't know if that was really a contributor to Sega's lost at the time of the mega Drive, Mega Drive was selling on arcade style big name games like Sonic, and ports of popular arcades games, like Mortal Kombat, and outside Japan since Jrpgs weren't that popular in the west at that time, you saw the same with the SNES, Killer Instinct came out late and sold over 3 million units like Star Fox, another game that was arcade gameplay wise, Mario Kart, Street Fighter II all 3 versions, F-Zero, these were among the best selling games on the SNES so I don't buy the arcade thing being a weakness at least THEN, outside of Japan.
In the west you still needed Micros if you wanted the bigger longer games with more depth, a few ports came to the genesis but the power difference prevented them from selling to well, while in Japan the SNES Jrpgs were made for the console limitations, which is why the formula for them seldom changed until the 2000's for the most part.
I won't dispute some of those arcade titles sold really well, but lets not forget non-arcade hits like DKC, the rendered look helped with Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat 1 was censored to hell for Sega's benefit. Mortal Kombat 2 was a completely different story. There are also plenty of arcade titles on both systems that sold like crap and went unnoticed. Street Fighter 2 was probably the most influential title next to MK, Nintendo was wise to lock SF2 up, but that was also a Pokemon type phenomenon. SNES negated a lot of SEGA's arcade advantages through Konami (TMNT), Capcom and other third parties. You already mentioned the RPG advantage for the SNES.
Anyhow back to the Genesis - a lot of Sega's success was the direct result of Electronic Arts ports but more importantly their Sports Titles. These weren't arcade or quick games, they were Sports titles that people spent many months playing, every year, even Joe Montana's Football. EA published a lot of titles from computers (USA and Europe) for Genesis and their early sports games were basically Genesis exclusives. EA provided the Genesis with a fair amount of content in the early barren years.
EA Sports titles didn't start appearing on SNES until late 1992 (poor efforts at that), that seems to coincide with Genesis starting to lose their top placement. EA sports games were always better on the Genesis, especially up until 1994. But being available on the SNES from late 1992, really hurt the Genesis in North America 1993 and beyond.
Obviously this is from a North American perspective. But I'd argue without Electronic Arts (Sports, Computer dumps and European titles) and Sonic (not a real arcade game), Genesis would have lost their lead much earlier than they did. Genesis with Altered Beast pack in vs Mario World on SNES, just goes to show you how poor Altered Beast was and how little impact it truly had.
Electronic Arts did a lot of heavy lifting from 90-92, The best thing they ever did was reverse engineer the Genesis and make peace with Sega. Without EA, the Genesis would have suffered a similar fate to the Master System.
I think there is some truth that players wanted more than water downed Arcade Ports of mid-average tier games for the time.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
Yes, but outside japan DKC was like 1 non-arcade game for every 4 arcade games on the SNES among the best sellers. Several games you say were negating Segas arcade advantage actually weren't as big as you think they were. TMNT didn't sell a million copies on the SNES WW.
I just can't see how having arcade games as the leading software was why Sega eventually lost when the SNES had massive selling arcade titlesdriving sales even in the later years.
Killer Instinct
Star Fox
Street Fighter II
Street Fighter 2 turbo
Super SF II
Mario Kart
F-Zero
are all games that sold between 2-4 million copies.
On the Genesis only Sonic 1, 2, Mortal Kombat 1, and Aladdin meet that in the not just in the US but worldwide. if anything I think that a lack of a higher number of stronger selling arcade titles ended up hurting Sega in the in the US, instead of them putting emphasis on arcade software being their downfall as you say.
Problem with this is that zero EA titles actually sold over 1 million copies, but while the other games sold well regardless even if not that well, it should be noted that much of EA's output was selling to genesis users and not really moving hardware and hardware continued to decline despite EA, and before Joe Montana football in 1993 which is the first non-arcade sports game to sell over a million copies in 1993(on the genesis). In 1993 the Genesis was over 4 years old. It wasn't until the end of that year that Sega sales started to decline, not 1992.
We can see this with Segas other million selling software, NFL 98, which came in 1997, Madden was a bigger name but never had a game before or after 1993 that sold a million copies on the Genesis, but Sega had not one in 1993, but another in 1997 while the consoles was on it's death bed and a year after Sega wrote off $60 million in unsold genesis inventory. So compared to the SNES, EA may have not been the system moving advantage that many people think for Sega, at least not yet as Madden does better on the Saturn (relative to it's small US ltd, one of the best selling games iirc).
I disagree with EA based on the above and whatever sales figures I can find for Genesis specific performance. I also disagree with the computer dumbs, they had an audience but it was not big enough to really matter.
Remember the US was THE reason why the Genesis was ahead at the time, later Genesis sales elsewhere were after it was already overtaken, this includes Europe. There were not far from 20 million Genesis sold in the US alone that's most of its sales numbers and that was mostly owed to Sonic 1, and Sonic 2 the next year.
Before Sonic 1, the Genesis in the US wasn't even at 1.2 million sold, by the end of the year post Sonic it was at over 2.3 million. In 1992 Sonic 2 was the only million selling title that year, it was `1993 when other games also would start selling high amounts of copies into the millions (6 games actually), same with 1994, and 1995, then outside of NFL 98, that completely stopped.
Based on Sega's write-off they too were caught off guard by the sudden collapse in hardware purchases. Most of Segas output after 1994, was trying to move away from arcade ports and it didn't work. Vectorman for example, sold 500,000 really fast and then stopped selling. Several strategy and rpg games published along with other games opposite of the arcade and they didn't work, so I just don't see arcade being the reason for Sega being overtaken by the SNES, especially in the US, when there were MANY best sellers that were high in copies sold on the SNES in the US, a few were after 1994, the same time frame where Sega was trying to diversify.
Killer Instinct was the definition of a watered down arcade games and sold 3 million copies. Star Fox was trying to be like those arcade space rail shooters and was just a watered down attempt at that in 1993, over 3 million copies, Super Street Fighter Ii 2 million copies, MKII 1.4 million in 1994.
Sega wasn't seeing these numbers at all.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
One thing SNES did great over Genesis is the sound. That Sony audio chip was way better than Genesis. You could actually get brass/orchestra kinds of effects. Maybe on T-16 and Sega CD you could get awesome sound like that, but I never had those CD systems.
It's clear your definition of Arcade game is different to mine, where I am referring to Coin-Ops. Arcade covers way to much and Sega's ports were usually pretty shallow, bare bones and crap. Your also really hung up on sales figures instead of mind share and momentum.
Between 1990-1992, Sega relied on it's arcade titles to push the system, Electronic Arts filled a void and presented more in-depth games and sports titles. 1990-1992 is where Genesis toppled the mighty NES and climbed above a later released SNES in America. Star Fox, Mario Kart, F-zero whilst arcade experiences, offered so much more and for all purposes are original products. As stated the best move Nintendo did was lock up Street Fighter 2.
Genesis was able to cling onto a small victory with Sonic in 1992, MK with Blood in 1993. This is the period I am referring to. I am saying without EA's offerings - Sega may never have had the lead at all once SNES released, possibly never over taking the NES in American Market share. In fact without the new audience EA brought to the table, I reckon SNES would have trounced over Sega much sooner.
In 1995, of course Killer Instinct sold well, what was the SNES install base by that point?
Do you really think TMNT was _not_ important to American kids? the continued NES legacy and mind share was important until 1993. Just like Contra and Castle Vania. TMNT probably outsold most of Sega's poor arcade ports, including Golden Axe or whatever. A lot of Sega late 80 titles were available on micros, even though they were crap. But their was Sega saturation across Pc Engine, NES and Micros.
Once Sega confused their audience to hell with the Sega CD, Game Gear, Sega 32X and Saturn, is it any wonder Genesis games failed to sell well? Vector-man, Comics Zone as a few examples. Not even a crappy port of Virtua Fighter did well. After 1993, Sega did try to course correct with more original titles and less crappy arcade ports. But it was too late, the war was over. People did own a Genesis, but they were collecting dust or weekend rentals.
Momentum, consumer confidence and stability are real things, above and beyond sales figures and numbers. The eye test and living it, tell a different story.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
This doesn't make sense,
The person i responded to was talking about the overuse of arcades being a factor in them losing to Sega before you jumped in agreeing with that premise. The sales figures are directly connected to that and mindshare. You can't separate the 3, the sales started declining at the same time that the biggest selling SNES games specially in the US the strongest market for the genesis, post 1994 were arcade games. During the era that improving arcade ports were still system sellers. This makes the argument that Sega ended up losing because of arcade games shallow.
\You can't say this and ignore sales figures, EA games were not selling at the rate to keep ahead of the SNES in regards to console sales the way you keep implying. Several games that many people believe where instrumental to sales before Sonic 1 weren't as big as how they perceived them to be (Streets of Rage being a popular series with this problem), some of them did well comparatively to other Genesis titles but many were selling to users and not creating an incentive to buy hardware.
The fact the two sports games that sold over a million copies on the Genesis were not EA games and were SEGA SPORTS titles which released in later is al the information you need. You also ahve to look at the sales rate, before Sonic 1, the Genesis has been on the shelves for almost 2 years selling at a very slow rate, by October the same year after Sonic the Genesis was at 2.3 million and was selling at a much faster pace, by Sonic 2 it was 5 million, after it was 9.
Most of the genesis best sellers were released in 1994 and 1993, a time frame where we saw the Genesis sales decline. If all of a sudden you have a several big games selling large numbers of copies not far apart and the hardware is declining ask yourself, who is buying those games? people who already have a genesis, not people who are buying a console. Those people still existed, and at the early part of the decline were still substantial in number, but that changed later.
I want to remind you that in 1997, a year after Sega wrote off $60 million in unsold Saturn inventory, with the Genesis effectively dead in the US, a Sega Sports title NFL 98 sold over a million copies out of nowhere. People were not buying Genesis hardware for this game and I don't even think there was a million consoles on store shelves to even sell then given the write off from the year before. This is why despite a cluster of best sellers in 1993 and 1994 the hardware was declining.
Sega needed software that would make people want to buy hardware more than the SNES, but in the late stage that didn't happen. There was an uptick in computer games at the time as well, but most were moving on to the PlayStation in 1997, they already had in 1996. But the SNES still somehow gave reason for consumers to buy it for a bit longer that Sega couldn't figure out, and several of those late sellers were arcade games outside DKC.
During this same time, Sega published several games I mentioned before introducing more depth to the gameplay than they ever did before, and none of it worked. But more shallow arcade games sold millions on SNES 1994 onward.
I can't see arcade games being Sega's failures because of this. it doesn't make sense.
This is a poor argument because you can use the same argument for the Genesis, yet the software sales were drying up. US install base was quite high but you weren't seeing games selling over 2 million here, 3 million there like the SNES. SNES didn't pass the Genesis yet in 1995 either, Sega was still number one in the US up until early 1996, you can see that article in the Sega 1996 thread.
You are greatly greatly, and I mean greatly overestimating how much Contra and Castlevania sold after the NES. Those became niche franchises, less than SOTN sales. TMNT wasn't a big seller either, these games had fans and sold to fans but how many consoles were they getting customers or parents to purchase? Not many.
Just follow the consoles sales trail from before Sonic until after Sonic and you'll see that Sonic arguably cannibalized sales with the first two games until 1993 where you started seeing 3p hits appear one after another and then stop. This isn't about whether TMNT the actual show or the brand was popular, had nothing to do with game sales or console movers.
Nothing confusing about these two, they just didn't catch on. Sega CD was an optional way to play enhanced versions of their favorite genesis games, or games that were only possible with CD. The Game gear was just a portable like the Gameboy, Lynx, and Turbo Express that you could take on the go which Sega missed a great opportunity on, but there was nothing confusing about it people knew it was a portable Sega like Gameboy was a portable Nintendo, and the Lynx was a portable cat.
32X and Saturn were not a factor until mid 1994 and later, Genesis never had high software sales compared to the SNES in 1p or 3p. The sudden influx of better selling 3P's were only making it to over a million and stopping from there. Mortal Kombat 1 was the only 3P game that sold more than 2 million copies along with Aladdin. 2 games.
The SNES in comparison had 8 3p games that sold over 2 million copies (so excluding Rare)
The Genesis had 6 3p games sell over 1 million.
The SNES 22 3p games sell over 1 million.
Even if you remove the Jrpgs for SNES since those weren't doing to well on the SNES in the US, it's still 3 games for over 2 million copies and 11 games selling over 1 million regarding 3P games.
That's only 3P.
I think the biggest issue is Sega relied way too much on Sonic, and got lucky with how the Mortal Kombat 1 port turned out which helped games sales after but only for a short time.
Fat Frog
I advertised for Google Stadia
Fun facts:
Due to Yamauchi's pressures, Capcom clearly released more hits on the Snes.
Years later (probably disgusted by Nintendo of the 16 bits era), Capcom released a load of arcade gems on the saturn, almost nothing on the N64...
In the 90's, Nintendo was backed by the tiers to fight Sega (more were on Nintendo's side, they were scared by Ninty).
Decades later, indies are mostly backing the genesis (there a few snes games though) and are delivering more impressive games than the 90's AAA...
The last games of the genesis could be released in 2077
Due to Yamauchi's pressures, Capcom clearly released more hits on the Snes.
Years later (probably disgusted by Nintendo of the 16 bits era), Capcom released a load of arcade gems on the saturn, almost nothing on the N64...
In the 90's, Nintendo was backed by the tiers to fight Sega (more were on Nintendo's side, they were scared by Ninty).
Decades later, indies are mostly backing the genesis (there a few snes games though) and are delivering more impressive games than the 90's AAA...
The last games of the genesis could be released in 2077
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Your entitled to your opinion. But you are hung up on sales figures and have not even considered the rental aspects and how they impacted hardware sales in North America. You can't admit to being wrong or open to anything sensible. To be honest, I wonder if you actually lived through any of these times or not, or if your just trolling.
You also can't admit the excitement and attachment games like Contra, TMNT and storied NES franchises had to gamers. These had impacts for SNES.
I lost interested after your refusal to even acknowledge that Sega confused their audience through the release of multiple systems over a short period of time, with rumors of more systems. By early 1994, the Saturn and Playstation were already creeping into media and gamer's thoughts. Consumer confidence was damaged and it would only continue, 32X was being tossed around. Gamers had more options than ever as well. It was a confusing time, where you even there?
The only thing you actually got right was the over reliance on Sonic and so many lucky occurrences that went Sega's way. The Genesis success was an anomaly. Game sales aren't everything.
I'll stick with my Coin-op arcade game is not the same as something like an arcade experience. I'll also stick with my belief that Sega's arcade reliance and offerings from 89-92 were not enough by themselves to grab the lead and that supporting balancing offerings from Electronic Arts, pushed them over the edge. From the end of 1993 onwards, Sega was exposed for the incompetent company they were. Altered beast was a terrible pack in and Sonic (more than just an arcade game) saved them. Sega's reliance on arcade titles didn't help much in Japan either, where they saw little success. By the time they switched gears and provided more original content, it was too late.
SNES won, it was closer in America than it had any right to be, 89-93 was very different to 94-97, over reliance on Arcade games with no substance. Even the PC Engine was able to best the NES. But once the true 16 bit war started, Nintendo was able to negate the arcade edge through third parties, but also provide more meaningful experiences.
Peace out, enough is enough.
Ash Sparrow
Banned
nope, not to ,me
93xfan
Banned
Zelda AlttP, Mario World, Illusion of Gaia, Super Castlevania 4, Super Metroid, Super Mario Kart, Yoshi’s Island, TMNT 4: Turtles in Time, F-Zero, Chrono Trigger, Contra 3, Donkey Kong Country 1 and 2, and plenty of others I’m sure I’m forgetting.
Genesis was amazing too, and a very respectable competitor, but I feel Nintendo was the best overall.
Genesis was amazing too, and a very respectable competitor, but I feel Nintendo was the best overall.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I had both systems and their game libraries were both good but in different ways. Having both systems covered all bases. My highlighted games are what I skewed each system to.
Genesis: Sega arcade ports, sports (great Sega and EA combo), Sonic, games show blood, Sega-CD (if a gamer liked this optional add on)
SNES: Mario (and all their platformers), Capcom and Konami games were better, JRPGs, 6 button controller had more functionality
It's funny, you never see much mention of the controllers, or at least I don't in these type of threads. The fore site Nintendo showed with their controller is very under rated. Even though in the end the Genesis 6 button was great, it's a pity it didn't launch with that controller. Thank goodness for Street Fighter, which made that type of controller a requirement really. I still can't understand the idea of a 3 button controller, I don't recall arcade games having 3 very often (but it's been a while). That stable aspect of the Nintendo controller, cannot go underappreciated.
REDRZA MWS
Member
Nah. Genesis was my favorite console of all time. Sure, sales and commercially Nintendo “won” but with many arcade ports looking and performing better on genesis, coupled with the first modem for online play, coupled with ea sports games blowing the snes out of the water, and also on said XBand, we played a lot more Genesis back then no question.
xpresstuning
Member
I wouldn't say it was an anomaly at all, i think it was all thanks to the brilliant, aggressive marketing that appealed to an older demographic, and attacked Nintendo painting them as the 'un-cool' nerdy machine to have. Combine that with Sonic and the best sports titles you could possibly have in the 4th generation, and you can see why it was such a hit in North America.
Sega of America were far from incompetent as far as i know during Tom Kalinske's era. He was also against the SEGA Saturn releasing early IIRC, i can't be arsed to google it, but suffice to say its thanks to his excellent business decisions that we actually have awareness of what SEGA as a console manufacturer was. Tom Kalinske was the reason why the Genesis was such a hit.
Sega of Japan on the other hand, i don't know what the fuck was going on there.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
Sales numbers aren't opinions, you're trying to create an historical event that couldn't actually happen, that requires ignoring sales, which was what was being discussed before your first response to me.
You can't ignore sales, and then agree with someone that arcade games are what lead to Segas downfall when the SNES in later years was still selling due to arcade games selling truckloads. That doesn't make sense.
Rental had little to do with hardware sales, that was software, and the SNES also had that as well yet still had higher software sales even just looking at 3P. We also have hardware sales for the Genesis and see it clearly increased after Sonic 1 was released ten fold and continued to do so until late 1993. Software sales also increase, we have too much objective evidence against this theory.
Excitement has nothing to do with it, the average consumer wasn't buying Contra and Castlevania on the SNES in the US. It's got nothing to do with whether the games were hyped in the media, or if their quality they just became more niche franchises, the same happened with Mega Man and Gradius.
The problem was your timeline didn't make sense, genesis sales were falling late in 1993 and continuing, the Saturn wasn't out yet, the 32X was not out yet, the Game Gear was not confusing because it was in a different market segment, so the only thing most consumers knew about was the Sega CD. Can't be confused about consoles that aren't yet released. I mentioned this before and you glossed over it oddly.
1993-1994 is also hen you saw a few 3p finally make big breaks in software sales (arguably at the expense of others in hindsight given how things went after) so this reasoning doesn't seem reasonable. How can consumers be confused about machines that haven't released?
Almost all the games I listed that released on the SNES after 1993 were coin-op except Star Fox.
But... Sega had the lead.
I just don't see how you can blame arcades for the death of the Genesis, when Sega was being caught and outsold by the SNES in the US mainly due to arcade games other than DKC. Killer Instinct was also one of the most butchered ports between both consoles and it sold over 3 million copies.
Also MK II and MK3 did pretty well on the SNES too after the fiasco with MK1. Both also later releases.
I believe the issue was that they had problems publishing or developing more strong games that would sell a higher amount of software and in turn would sell a higher amount of consoles in the long term. i think that went things didn't work out they would run back to Sonic each time and they didn't really try to move away from that formula until the Saturn, when they launched with almost entirely new unfamiliar games.
They needed another 2 or 3 Sonics, not Sonic 1 level success but maybe closer to Sonic 2 level successes 3-6 million sales, that's what Sega needed. They had some great franchises but none broke through to the mainstream outside of Sonic that was created by Sega themselves.
ManaByte
Member
DKC came out in 1994. At that point SEGA was messing with the 32X and already transitioning their focus to the Saturn the following May.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
I think you misread my post timeline, your quote was addressing him thinking that arcade experiences are the reason that Sega ended up losing to the SNES. But the SNES released arcade games late that sold more than any 3p arcade game that released on the genesis outside of MK1.
But when the sales of the genesis were declining late 1993, the 32X and Saturn were not a factor in the US, even in 1994 the Saturn wasn't until 1995.
It's not Famitsu that says 290K.
That Famitsu article explicitly stated that the data comes from the console manufacturers of the time.
So in this case the 290K sell-in number as September 1997 comes directly from NEC HE.
Now I ask you from where did the link you posted took the 400K number?
See the difference?
PCE and MD card/cart players in Japan:
PCE and MD CD players in Japan:
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I always wondered what timespan the info that PCE outsold the Famicom in Japan refer to (like one week or one month) because the annual shipment data from the respective manufacturers suggest the Famicom continued to sell more than PCE in Japan (mind you initially Nintendo and NEC had a different time period for their respective fiscal year so early comparison doesn't exactly match).
Since the introduction of the PC Engine in Japan, Famicom has shipped 8.63M whereas PCE total sell-in (including the Duo models) is 4.79M.
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I always wondered what timespan the info that PCE outsold the Famicom in Japan refer to (like one week or one month) because the annual shipment data from the respective manufacturers suggest the Famicom continued to sell more than PCE in Japan (mind you initially Nintendo and NEC had a different time period for their respective fiscal year so early comparison doesn't exactly match).
Since the introduction of the PC Engine in Japan, Famicom has shipped 8.63M whereas PCE total sell-in (including the Duo models) is 4.79M.
From what I've read and can recall it was only briefly in Japan (possibly in 87), where for the first time a console sold more than the NES, breaking Nintendo's streak. Not sure if NEC did it only or not, with as you said different report methods. What's also funny, if you read or listen to some accounts, NEC and Nintendo were fairly friendly and willing to share the market. (laugh). It's only now do I look back an realize NEC was such a huge, respected and massive successful company in Japan. They were huge in the PC space, in fact they were almost the entire PC space in Japan. Semi conductor, hardware, chips etc. I get the feeling Nintendo didn't want to piss them off. Which is really weird to think of when we think of Nintendo. Or Nintendo knew they'd fail, not sure which
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
I told you before that's where the link got the 400k source, and considering that they compile data from them and Media Create and all their info seems to match for the most part it is a believable claim.
But there is a possibility they got he PC FX wrong, UNLESS the 400k where some unreported shipments by NEC.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Not only was SNES 6 buttons great, the layout is great too. Way better than the 2x3 brick layout of the Genesis 6 button pad (which I also had).
Not sure if it was the first index finger shoulder buttons on a gamepad, but it sure made playing fighting games easier. And you could do cool stuff like rotate the cam in Contra 3 while still being able to move and shoot, or pivot. Or playing On the Ball.
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I recall reading an interview from a Hudson staff programmer, where the programmer basically said NEC and Nintendo were 'friendly' and the market was big enough to share, or some such thing. Was something that caught me off guard, I'll try to find the link.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Mega Drive released in 1988. Everything prior had 2 buttons, Sega was right in thinking 1 extra button would carry them a long way, lol. A lot of MD games don’t even use 3 buttons, and early Sonic - the MD’s biggest success - doesn’t use all three. It’s basically only due to fighting games that more buttons became a necessity.
I don‘t know why Nintendo went with those many buttons with the SNES, as the use of shoulder buttons in SMW was clearly an afterthought and even F-Zero could have done with a different control scheme. But they were lucky that a year after the SNES launched in Japan, Capcom made the game that completely justified having 6 control buttons! And it’s only after SF2 that suddenly, every other console found itself short on buttons, lol.
RainblowDash
Gold Member
SNES just had many many more games, especially RPGs over the Genesis.