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Digital Foundry: Alan Wake 2 PS5 Pro Tech Review - Pro vs PS5 - PSSR vs DLSS - Pro RT vs PC
- Thread starter adamsapple
- Start date
Md Ray
Member
PS5 Pro's 60fps mode runs at higher quality settings (approximately PC's Medium preset) and outputs at 2160p (from 864p internal via PSSR). In comparison, XSX runs at lower quality settings (approx. PC's Low preset) and outputs at 1440p (from 847p internal via FSR2). The combination of higher quality settings + PSSR, 2160p output cost is seemingly too high for the PS5 Pro GPU. They should dial back the gfx settings or reduce the output res from 2160p to 1440p.
EDIT:
Not 1:1 to the console comparison, but upscaling from similar internal resolution with the only difference being output resolution adds +1.46ms to the rendering (16% difference).
(Mix of Low/Med settings)
The difference between Medium and Low preset is around 10%.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Funny how they’re sitting here proclaiming that PSSR can’t work with RTGI/Isn't ready when we have examples of it working fine with RT effects and games like AW2 showed Remedies functional lack of tuning of all upscallers, but no PSSR is junk of course
To say nothing of how it actually did some things better than DLSS at 800P ish that Digital Foundry chose not to highlight. Then we have people ‘randomly’ posting the newest DLSS update apropos of nothing. To say it’s PSSR because of so little evidence is quite frankly, stupid.
Thread 'PS5 Pro shimmering/aliasing issues seems to be system related not PSSR. Have evidence.'
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ps5-...ystem-related-not-pssr-have-evidence.1677459/
So how do you resolve the fact that most Microsoft ports of Series games run better on PS5? Because that’s a thing, and if you understood the technical makeup of each system you’d understand why that’s happening.
Not only is it false, but if you really wanted to be faithful to reality (within the extreme equality of results) it can be the opposite, especially in the most demanding games.
Then, the most curious and funny thing is the nerve to reduce the performance situation of PS5Pro to the simple fact of the lack of adequate optimization (which may be very true) but then they deny the performance situation of some games on XSX vs PS5 to the reason of the lack of optimization when, especially XSX, is being the console to which the least time of optimization is dedicated of all the current ones (even less than XSS), PS5 being de base/priority plataform in most of the time and yet it responds frankly well.
The typical hypocrisy and double standard
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Curious, but what does it do better than DLSS at 800p? From what I’ve seen it looks much, much worse.Funny how they’re sitting here proclaiming that PSSR can’t work with RTGI/Isn't ready when we have examples of it working fine with RT effects and games like AW2 showed Remedies functional lack of tuning of all upscallers, but no PSSR is junk of course
To say nothing of how it actually did some things better than DLSS at 800P ish that Digital Foundry chose not to highlight. Then we have people ‘randomly’ posting the newest DLSS update apropos of nothing. To say it’s PSSR because of so little evidence is quite frankly, stupid.
Thread 'PS5 Pro shimmering/aliasing issues seems to be system related not PSSR. Have evidence.'
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ps5-...ystem-related-not-pssr-have-evidence.1677459/
So how do you resolve the fact that most Microsoft ports of Series games run better on PS5? Because that’s a thing, and if you understood the technical makeup of each system you’d understand why that’s happening.
There is no need because it is not true either?? And in the cases where it occurs there are quite a few aspects that come into play.
And even if it were (which I repeat it is not), it does not contradict the other.
It is more interesting to try to explain how 3rd party Studios release games where XSX has the best version vs PS5 (especially in cases of the most technologically demanding games. Many recently released) even though it is the console to which less attention is paid in terms of optimization (even less than XSS) and PS5 being the priority platform and development base in the vast majority of cases
.I fully understand the technical circumstances of each console, and I fully understand that there are circumstances beyond the pure hardware aspect that have a significant impact when it comes to tipping the balance in one direction or the other. Especially when there is so much equality in architecture and capabilities between both.
Technical characteristics of the game itself that favor or not certain hardware specifications, different APIs, optimization time, whether or not it is a base development platform, the target of the Studio itself... These are mainly the reasons that explain different situations that we have seen.
Insane Metal
Member
Damn, LOL
Oh it is much more worse. I’ll fire up some side by sides later on. I mean neither of them are winners at 800P range. I’d say DLSS is still better, but it wasn’t completely cut and dry. if you remember the initial naked man tree comparison, it’s because of it not pulling in as much sun pixel sampling that it sometimes more accurately represents elements of a particular dimension and distance. But it falls apart at smaller details. That said you can see how it performed better initially on the diner sign and had less issues when it was being passed. I noticed PSSR handling white fences a bit better at points too, but when I’m home I’ll take another look.
Speaking to PSSR specifically: One thing that caught my eye was the weird hazzy swimming effect and John mentioned it as well. Seems very similar to the issue seen in pre release Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart. Not that I expect Remedy to issue a patch, but they might be able to. DF also mentioned that devs are implementing different versions of PSSR as some big updates came relatively late.
Basically everyone jumping the gun for whatever reason need to take a step back before proclaiming PSSR is anything yet.
PS5 versions of MS games have better shadow resolution, better LOD and density overall and better FPS. PS5 is generally better at raster than the series X.
There’s a world of difference from a skeleton team deploying a patch in a short amount of time and factoring in PS5 Pro during years of development. You need to heavily author code specific to a given platform to get performance out of it. Titles in development now will show larger gains than a team of 5 people over a month.
It’s not just ‘devs aren’t prioritizing Series X’ btw, it’s that it’s far easier to optimize for parallelizing across a faster clocked system with less CUs and less bottlenecks. Not even optimize, but by happenstance extract better performance relative to theoretical peaks without doing anything. Microsoft imbalanced the series design to get that high CU/TF count and it leads to naturally inefficiency both in programming and effective system utilization per CU no matter how much optimized code you throw at it.
You’re seeing that in games designed for the Series X performing better on PS5.
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Oh it is much more worse. I’ll fire up some side by sides later on. I mean neither of them are winners at 800P range. I’d say DLSS is still better, but it wasn’t completely cut and dry. if you remember the initial naked man tree comparison, it’s because of it not pulling in as much sun pixel sampling that it sometimes more accurately represents elements of a particular dimension and distance. But it falls apart at smaller details. That said you can see how it performed better initially on the diner sign and had less issues when it was being passed.
Speaking to PSSR specifically: One thing that caught my eye was the weird hazzy swimming effect and John mentioned it as well. Seems very similar to the issue seen in pre release Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart. Not that I expect Remedy to issue a patch, but they might be able to. DF also mentioned that devs are implementing different versions of PSSR as some big updates came relatively late.
Basically everyone jumping the gun for whatever reason need to take a step back before proclaiming PSSR is anything yet.
PS5 versions of MS games have better shadow resolution, better LOD and density overall and better FPS. PS5 is generally better at raster than the series X.
.
Hifi Rush on XSX works exactly like PC to its fullest. It has more to do with the port made for PS5 (made for a differet Studio) than with the capabilities of the console.
Sea of Thieves (a six-year-old game) was released on XSX at its launch and did not receive any further graphical improvement. The fact is that, in 120fps mode, the XSX version is clearly superior in framerate.
From here, that there could be cases is one thing and another was to say "most Xbox games work better on PS5" when it is not true. If that were the case, we would have to explain the cases of Grounded, Pentiment, Deathloop..... As I said, they are cases and cases, each with its own circumstances. In the end we are talking about multiplatform developments, even if they originate in an XBOX Studio and these are exposed to the same conditions and premises as any other game made by 3rd party.
If we were to start from that premise based on some Xbox ports, then we were going to have very many problems to explain cases of more technologically demanding 3rd party games where XSX has better version even though it is the platform with the least optimization time and yet......there are SW Outlaw, AW 2, Wharhamer 40K to name a few recent with a manifest difference in favor of XSX.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
the most important thing to understand about RTGI, lumen and other realtime rendering solutions is that they are well, realtime. the lighting data, the shadows data, the AO are NOT baked into textures like they do in sony games. they are rendered realtime and its clear that PSSR is struggling to compute the variances in realtime. Insomniac was talking about how 1/3rd of the disc is simply baked lighting data. its static and thus, easy for pssr to resolve.
PSSR will improve, but to release it in a state where it is simply broken on actual next gen games is just piss poor from sony. I expected better from Cerny.
I mean it’s hard to argue with all the reckless hypotheticals. Warhammer targeted PC as the lead platform FYI. Similarly it’s plainly obviously that Rememdy targets PC and there is ubiquitousness to that with Xbox.
So the developer that natively created the game for Xbox did a worse job than a developer porting it to another weaker system after the fact. Sure Jan.
Every ported version of Grounded had major problems so it’s hardly representative. It’s not even well made on its target platform, no surprise the ports were bad too.
it’s interesting that the Series X version of Sea of Thief’s runs better. I wonder if the settings still aren’t aligned in that mode or where the bottleneck is on PS5. In every other mode the PS5 holds the edge.
You’re also frequently ignoring that PS5 more often runs fully V-Synched whereas Series X runs with adaptive V-Synch.
I don’t know why you’re including StarWars Outlaws as a Series X win. Not only are they virtually identical with PS5 having slightly better performance in 30 FPS with traversal stutter. This is another title where PS5 is locked with V-Synch and Series X has to adaptively disable V-Synch, resulting in screen tearing, to stay within the same performance window. This is because PS5 has the performance headroom to enable a fully locked V-Synch where as Series X needs to disable it and introduce torn frames to keep pace.
Yet somehow you included this title as a Series X win? Why? Because the VRR range which has nothing to do with system performance?
You need to stop making wild assumptions and do more research into the technical side of development. It’s not impossible that Series X outperforms PS5 as its strength lays more in compute (if they can leverage it).
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bundylove
Member
You are totaly right.
Oh got my ass handed here and been told to get new eyes or and oled. Then i leaned into it and got booted from the tread.
I am a sony fan but i am not a blind sony fan.
Pssr is a joke and the biggest concern moving forward.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I see it more as a necessary evil. Let's not forget, its taken DLSS over 5 years to get to where it is today. These PSSR growing pains is necessary for what will be on the PS6 at the launch of that console.
One thing we can say with certainty is that PSSR will get better.
If I have any issue with PSSR, is that knowing sony, its not an API-like resource, which means that only way any of the games currently using it gets better is if the devs go in and patch in the new version of PSSR into it. It should have been designed in such a way that the PSSR version sits in the OS and can be updated via a firmware update.
There's nothing hypothetical there, that's the reality of multiplatform developments. Another thing is that you don't like to listen to it because it breaks your narrative.
And no, it's not as simple "a simple port vs native game" . These are games with old ones that have not been updated for years vs. an updated port made but a different Studio.
It's like if we put Death Stranding here and you run out of plots.
Grounded is not representative because......... break your narrative?? OK.
Or is it simply a game that did not receive a graphical update in XSX since it was released and by showing some minor aspect that favors to show better framerate??
The fact is that it is another example of what is being said. There are more circumstances behind it that explain concrete situations that are not 1:1. It's like trying to say that the PC version of HIFI in ULTRA (1:1 with XSX) can't be better than the PS5 because the latter has better shadows.
The engine can be agnostic and still exist when it comes to prioritize optimizing the version of one platform over another.
It's funny at this point to come to believe that the Studios' treatment when it comes to optimizing is always the same for XSx as it is for PS5. Sure Jam gif.
There are quite numerous cases of games that in XSX have needed patches after launch that demostrated what was obviously the console version with less optimization time.
"Frequently"......... no. The cases where that is and not on XSX are counted, not frequent. It is clear that you are very good at launching generalizations based on specific cases. The problem is that there are people who are informed.
Because that's how it is. The problem is that some peple have been carried away by Tom's bland analysis in DF that leaves much to be desired. Fortunately, there are many other more in-depth analyses of other sites and from all of them the same conclusion is drawn.
The XSX version runs at higher media resolution up to 22% in same scenes and sligth better framerate up to 13% (even with more polished/bugs free graphic details than PS5 version).
Tom's analysis does not go into comparing media resolution and only analyzes the framerate in a fragment of the beginning of the game.
I can quote you a lot reviews but if even NXGamer/IGN recognizes the differences in favor of XSX ...... It say all.
More
They are not assumptions. I repeat, it is the reality of multiplatform developments. There are circumstances and situations outside of hardware that can (and are) more important when it comes to tipping the balance to one side or the other than those of the hardware itself. Even more so on consoles so equal in architecture and capabilities. In those situations, by the logic of reality, XSX is of all the platforms (including XSS) the one that can lose out on the most occasions and still is saving them quite well.
No one has said otherwise. What it is being said that there are cases that are not 1:1 to sign that the possible differences are 100% due to hardware characteristics. In the ports (SOT, HIFI) of XBOx to PS5 for example.
I get information on the same site as you, but not only on it. This is what I recommend you do too. Many times seeing a set of analyses helps to have a better vision.
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Salty Pickle
Member
Whenever I see people here go ”PSSR sucks!!”, ”Can’t Sony do better??” Etc etc I always think ”Well where were you in those early DLSS-days?” But since it was many years ago now I guess people forget or they are so young they weren’t gaming back then.
Also the fact that Nvidia made so many improvments on all aspects between version 1 and 2, on the same hardware, makes at least me quite confident that Sony will solve all issues and improve it also in terms of milliseconds.
But then it’s up to the devs to actually implement it properly and not just bolt it on and call it a day.
I totally agree with you on that the PS5 Pro mainly is there to get devs familiarized with tech before PS6 and we (who have one) are the beta testers.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
With statements like these, I can see why you had your ass handed to you.
PSSR is not a silver bullet. And short-sightedness like this is endemic with most gamers and even unfortunately, gaming media.
PSSR, is not a joke, nor is it some sort of biggest concern. We have seen enough of it to see that it does work. And just like DLSS and XeSS before it, it has its own unique trouble spots in certain areas or situations.
And just like the aforementioned AI solutions, it too will get better with time. Would you be here 4-5 versions of it later to say how awesome it is now that the AI has got more training? Or do you only thrive in situations where you can paint broad strokes with fundamentally incorrect technical statements because it makes you feel good?
It's just par for the course, unfortunately. Happens every single time.
Honestly, if there is anything I feel Sony fucked up on with this, though I can't really blame them as this is their first implementation and I would expect that to be corrected with the PS6... its if they are leaving any of these things use up to the devs. They really should have done it in a way where its literally just bolted on, or more specifically, referenced from the OS by the game.
The second devs would need to do this or that to make the most of it, is the second we end up with implementations like what we see in AW2. They can't say they didn't see all that specular shimmer from the RT noise when using PSSR.
As far as I am concerned, where Sony dropped the ball on this is that there should have been restrictions on using PSSR, it should have had support for only two native resolutions, 1080p and 1440p.
Unfortunately, we are. But I knew that going in.
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bundylove
Member
Actually no.
I got into a debate with an individual tellimg me my eyes suck or i should get an oled.
I showed thr silent hill 2 clips i uploaded showing how much worse it looked on thr pro vs base and then it went into a oled vs mini led battle.
SO i was hit with a tread deralement which is fair and i also pointed it out prior of my ban.
I would expect more about the main technology they sold for Pro in their presentation that a experimental Nvidia feature like DLSS 1.0
XXL
Member
It's not surprising. Adam probably swallowed his load too.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Currently been playing AW2 on PC and DLSS on 'quality' with 3440x1440 output. As impressive as it looks I miss the clean image quality of old games, like back in the Max Payne era. Even with native res or DLAA it's still not as sharp as older games before post-processing got out of hand.
I get that they want to mimic cinema and lots of games go for this cinematic feel with noise, lens distortion, blur and etc. But the cleanness of a well-antialiased image is definitely a looker.
I get that they want to mimic cinema and lots of games go for this cinematic feel with noise, lens distortion, blur and etc. But the cleanness of a well-antialiased image is definitely a looker.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
We need to go back.
Imo the push to realistic graphics is detrimental not just to game development (long dev cycles) but also to gameplay, which leads to devs having to use stuff like the yellow paint because there's just to much visual clutter on screen for the player to be able to actually see shit.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
Image quality never was so clean as nowadays. DLSS, pssr and other techniques. Seriously, games look clean as a postcard nowadays.
AW2 is not the norm
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
nah, he's right. x1x and ps4 had great IQ. Especially the x1x which ran many games at native 4k. While the checkerboarding solution on the ps4 pro was way better than fsr upscaling we are seeing. mainly because ps4 pro would upscale from 4.1 million pixels while FSR2 is upscaling from less than 1 million pixels.
Not to mention the fact that this gen has made a substantial increase in geometry, foliage and ray traced effects that are very hard for upscalers to resolve. HFW's original performance mode was literally the worst thing ive ever seen and that same upscaler was perfectly fine on the previous horizon game, days gone, gow and ghost of tsushima. But as soon as HFW with its massive leap in foliage launched, that reconstruction method broke and had to be completely redesigned.
TLDR; last gen games were basic as fuck and the reconstruction didnt have much of a challenge.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I am sorry but PSSR was supposed to fix the very performance modes it is failing miserable at fixing. The fidelity modes of games already using 4k fsr2 quality so 1440p base resolutions. It was the performance modes people were buying this console for. The versions that were running at 720p or 864p internal resolution and looking like shit.
You cannot excuse PSSR here saying hey it will get better in 4 to 5 iterations when they literally had 4 years to design this thing. 4 years to learn from DLSS. 4 years to test a $700 product before marketing it as a FIDELITY IQ IN 60 FPS like Cerny did.
Right now, the fact that its looking worse than FSR2 in performance mode is a fucking joke. No need to sugar coat it. No need to insult other users. Maybe try insulting Cerny and the engineering team incharge of a product that was designed to do something for $700 and fails miserably at it.
Honestly, the best examples of PSSR are tlou2, TLOU1, and Demon Souls. All games that already ran at 1440p 60 fps with native 4k fidelity modes. If all cerny did was take a look at those games to make his pitch then he was simply being disingenious because those games were not what people were complaining about when it came to IQ on the base PS5.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
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OverHeat
« generous god »
Remedy shit???? wtf
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Yes, the game is poor on all hardware
Senua
Gold Member
The game is awesome on PC actually
OverHeat
« generous god »
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Which pc? A 4090 pc? What isn’t
It could be even better on a monster pc if they weren’t so shitty at optimization
Zathalus
Member
No its not. A 4070 or better can do 4K using DLSS. A 3060ti is perfectly capable of running the game 1080p native, or even 1440p DLSS quality. Heck, even a lowly 3060 can do 1080p with DLSS quality. The previous examples are all at 60fps of course. Enabling RT or even full path tracing is the big performance killer, which is to be expected considering what it is doing. It certainly seems to be not very optimized for the Pro, but on PC it’s fine.
Senua
Gold Member
It looked incredible on my 3080 on an LG C3. I often stopped to look around at how stunning the environments were
XXL
Member
You have a 3080? Lol.
Bojji
Member
It's better than pro GPU. Other than that 10GB it's still very powerful card.
Unknown Soldier
Member
It's a problem with DLSS too, devs regularly use ancient DLSS versions. PC gamers can replace the DLSS with the latest version though using tools like DLSS Swapper since the DLSS version is just a dll file you can change out yourself
Bloody Crow of Cainhurst
Member
Man, I need to hug my Day 1 PS5 Fat with the giant copper heatsink and built in disc drive. To think I almost parted with it for a $300 trade in 
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Same. 3080 bro here as well.
Its use of volumetric effects is second to none. Made me want to gif almost every single area in the game.
Tchu-Espresso
likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
Interesting about the cost of the output resolution. To me, the image quality looks the same, so why do it?PS5 Pro's 60fps mode runs at higher quality settings (approximately PC's Medium preset) and outputs at 2160p (from 864p internal via PSSR). In comparison, XSX runs at lower quality settings (approx. PC's Low preset) and outputs at 1440p (from 847p internal via FSR2). The combination of higher quality settings + PSSR, 2160p output cost is seemingly too high for the PS5 Pro GPU. They should dial back the gfx settings or reduce the output res from 2160p to 1440p.
EDIT:
Not 1:1 to the console comparison, but upscaling from similar internal resolution with the only difference being output resolution adds +1.46ms to the rendering (16% difference).
(Mix of Low/Med settings)
The difference between Medium and Low preset is around 10%.