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[MazingerDUDE]

As always, these DF guys are complete sell outs. With this multi FG, the problem is not just the simple input latency. It's the input interval. You're basically getting 4 times the frame per each action you perform. Say if you have moved for 1/60 sec, your guy on the screen will move for next 4/60 sec. Which means if the base frame rate is 22, it still is effectively a 22 fps game when it comes to the control response. You're just getting 4 x the pictures. This is just crazy, and it's unbelievable to see these DF guys who's been saying how FG should've never been used in a low base frame rate games (say 30 to 60 like they did on PS5 Wukong) and now they keep their mouth shut for something like 20 to 80 LOL

 

[Thief1987]

Oh, shills are already in tow, must be things are not all sunshine and rainbow, eh

 

[DirtInUrEye]

Even 40ms input feels sluggish and unsatisfactory to me, so there's no way I'd go anywhere near the four times boost, regardless of how slick it looks. I have a 4070 ti Super and the only time I ever found FG to be reasonably acceptable was in The Witcher 3, on a controller. Everything else has felt far too laggy. Indiana Jones doesn't play well with it either, imo.

I'm not even one of these guys who turns everything down to low and demands 240hz gameplay or death. I have a big OLED telly in the living room and I'll sit back with an Xbox pad to play my games on PC. And yet frame gen still doesn't feel good enough to use over raw frame rate performance.

Real locked 60fps > FG 120

 

[Nickolaidas]

No. The suite is available to all RTX GPUs. Not all RTX GPUs support the same features though. The new multi frame generation is only available on RTX 50 cards. Frame generation is available only on RTX 40 cards and above. The rest is available on every RTX GPU.

Only the multi-frame stuff (basically their big performance upgrade from series 4000).

So DLSS4 is a thing in 40xx, but nerfed.

Should have listened to those 2 months ago telling you upgrading from a 4060ti to a 4070ti super wasn't a great upgrade when the 5000 series so close.

But then you were saying the 4070ti super was 25% better than the 5070.

Damn, man! You remember the thread? I am very impressed!

But honestly, I don't regret my purchase. At least until I see the prices that 5070 will have here in Greece.

 

[owandeseis]

As always, these DF guys are complete sell outs. With this multi FG, the problem is not just the simple input latency. It's the input interval. You're basically getting 4 times the frame per each action you perform. Say if you have moved for 1/60 sec, your guy on the screen will move for next 4/60 sec. Which means if the base frame rate is 22, it still is effectively a 22 fps game when it comes to the control response. You're just getting 4 x the pictures. This is just crazy, and it's unbelievable to see these DF guys who's been saying how FG should've never been used in a low base frame rate games (say 30 to 60 like they did on PS5 Wukong) and now they keep their mouth shut for something like 20 to 80 LOL

That's DLSS 4 not frame gen LOL

 

[nemiroff]

Holy shit, it actually works better than I thought. Good times.

 

[R3TRO]

They’re going to make me reinstall it again…

 

[YeulEmeralda]

 

[bundylove]

Yup. Looking forward to that Elden Ring port vs PS4 Pro version.

Cuz switch has enough headroom for dlss4? With that low end card?

 

[Gaiff]

As always, these DF guys are complete sell outs. With this multi FG, the problem is not just the simple input latency. It's the input interval. You're basically getting 4 times the frame per each action you perform. Say if you have moved for 1/60 sec, your guy on the screen will move for next 4/60 sec. Which means if the base frame rate is 22, it still is effectively a 22 fps game when it comes to the control response. You're just getting 4 x the pictures. This is just crazy, and it's unbelievable to see these DF guys who's been saying how FG should've never been used in a low base frame rate games (say 30 to 60 like they did on PS5 Wukong) and now they keep their mouth shut for something like 20 to 80 LOL

When did they advocate for turning on Frame Generation at 22fps?

 

[StereoVsn]

Eh, FG is good enough. What I’m interested in is the reduced latency provided by Reflex 2. Combined with regular frame gen, we’re potentially looking at a latency lower than native, not merely equal or in the same ballpark. Of course, you can always not turn on frame gen to get an even lower latency, but at a certain point, you’re hitting massive diminishing returns. Same for multi frame gen. I don’t care much for 300fps.

For SP games especially, unless they are very fast paced shooters, this could be very good improvement. Essentially giving you “free” FG (minus the artifacts).

 

[Mister Wolf]

Cuz switch has enough headroom for dlss4? With that low end card?

Everything from the 20 Series to the 40 Series is getting an update to DLSS4. The only thing the 5000 series has is multi frame generation. If that dock has an active cooling system like what is rumored and can clock the system up high in docked mode then I'm certain it will be a superior port in image quality and framerate stability.

 

[Wolzard]

Multi frame gen adds a bit of latency, but not much.

Might be useful for lower-end cards. It really hits the point of diminishing returns for higher-end ones. On the one hand, what's 7ms of extra latency? On the other hand, how much do I care going from 120 to 240fps? Not sure if that's with Reflex 2 though. I assume it is. However, I've never witnessed 200fps, so maybe I'm underestimating how good it looks in motion.

They didn't show the latency without the framegen turned on.
Additionally, they are using DLSS in performance mode, which renders at 1080p internally. It would be interesting to see it in quality mode, which probably has more latency. We will know in the future.

 

[Tomi]

I need RTX 5090, going to bank tmrw to see if i can get some bank credit

 

[bundylove]

Everything from the 20 Series to the 40 Series is getting an update to DLSS4. The only thing the 5000 series has is multi frame generation. If that dock has an active cooling system like what is rumored and can clock the system up high in docked mode then I'm certain it will be a superior port in image quality and framerate stability.

Keep dreaming. We've been here before . Many times

 

[proandrad]

This is whole thing is cherry-picked as fuck. The more I see, the less hyped I am for RTX 5000 since most of the benefits can be had with RTX 4000.

That’s how I felt about the 4000 series. If you already have a the last gen card I would wait for the 6000 series.

 

[Three]

Eh, FG is good enough. What I’m interested in is the reduced latency provided by Reflex 2. Combined with regular frame gen, we’re potentially looking at a latency lower than native, not merely equal or in the same ballpark. Of course, you can always not turn on frame gen to get an even lower latency, but at a certain point, you’re hitting massive diminishing returns. Same for multi frame gen. I don’t care much for 300fps.

Absolutely not. Reflex without framegen would always be ahead or equal.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Multi frame gen adds a bit of latency, but not much.

Might be useful for lower-end cards. It really hits the point of diminishing returns for higher-end ones. On the one hand, what's 7ms of extra latency? On the other hand, how much do I care going from 120 to 240fps? Not sure if that's with Reflex 2 though. I assume it is. However, I've never witnessed 200fps, so maybe I'm underestimating how good it looks in motion.

How can they record latency in this way ? Usually it's done manually with a camera. What are they calling "latency" here? And what's the numbers without frame-gen ?

 

[Gaiff]

Absolutely not. Reflex without framegen would always be ahead or equal.

Reflex isn’t native. I say in the very next sentence that you can always not turn on frame gen and get an even lower latency.

 

[proandrad]

As always, these DF guys are complete sell outs. With this multi FG, the problem is not just the simple input latency. It's the input interval. You're basically getting 4 times the frame per each action you perform. Say if you have moved for 1/60 sec, your guy on the screen will move for next 4/60 sec. Which means if the base frame rate is 22, it still is effectively a 22 fps game when it comes to the control response. You're just getting 4 x the pictures. This is just crazy, and it's unbelievable to see these DF guys who's been saying how FG should've never been used in a low base frame rate games (say 30 to 60 like they did on PS5 Wukong) and now they keep their mouth shut for something like 20 to 80 LOL

Are they using framegen for that ss, because it only mentions dlss on and off? I would assume the fps would be much higher if the first pic is native resolution and the second is dlss with framegen.

 

[bundylove]

Everything from the 20 Series to the 40 Series is getting an update to DLSS4. The only thing the 5000 series has is multi frame generation. If that dock has an active cooling system like what is rumored and can clock the system up high in docked mode then I'm certain it will be a superior port in image quality and framerate stability.

Judging by this i see no hope.

But i sure would hope the switch 2 is better than the ps4 pro.

Otherwise consider yourself to be scammed.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

Are they using framegen for that ss, because it only mentions dlss on and off? I would assume the fps would be much higher if the first pic is native resolution and the second is dlss with framegen.

you tell me

 

[Mister Wolf]

Judging by this i see no hope.

But i sure would hope the switch 2 is better than the ps4 pro.

Otherwise consider yourself to be scammed.

They have no idea about the clocks in docked mode or what type of cooling that will be available to mitigate heat. Speculation on clocks to preserve battery life is one thing but we aren't talking about portable mode.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Has Nvidia stated how better is DLSS4 compared to DLSS3 for a non-50xx card?

 

[winjer]

The Frame Generation for 3 or 4 frames, is completely stupid time in between frames will be just too high.
But the new upscaler using transformers, instead of CNNs, seems to be a major leap in quality, both for DLSS and ray reconstruction.
Intel and AMD still haven't catch up to the previous DLSS in quality, and they are already making another jump. Impressive.

 

[bundylove]

They have no idea about the clocks in docked mode or what type of cooling that will be available to mitigate heat. Speculation on clocks to preserve battery life is one thing but we aren't talking about portable mode.

Wonder what game they will demonstrate at the reveal?

Third party or first party?

That would set the tone for what to expect out of it

 

[Mister Wolf]

Wonder what game they will demonstrate at the reveal?

Third party or first party?

That would set the tone for what to expect out of it

We got all these leaks on the design of the system. Why haven't we seen the dock yet? The Steam Deck nor any other those other handhelds are designed around external cooling.

 

[StereoVsn]

The Frame Generation for 3 or 4 frames, is completely stupid time in between frames will be just too high.
But the new upscaler using transformers, instead of CNNs, seems to be a major leap in quality, both for DLSS and ray reconstruction.
Intel and AMD still haven't catch up to the previous DLSS in quality, and they are already making another jump. Impressive.

1 Frame Gen with newest Reflex and improved DLSS could work quite well. But yeah, generating 3 extra frames is also asking for trouble with weird artifacts in the image , not to mention latency.

 

[winjer]

1 Frame Gen with newest Reflex and improved DLSS could work quite well. But yeah, generating 3 extra frames is also asking for trouble with weird artifacts in the image , not to mention latency.

Reflex 2 also seems to be a huge step forwards.
Games are going to feel super snappy and responsive with it enabled, but with FG disabled.

 

[bundylove]

We got all these leaks on the design of the system. Why haven't we seen the dock yet? The Steam Deck nor any other those other handhelds are designed around external cooling.

Are we sure it will have a dock mode?

I dont know man. Naturaly with all other new consoles they show some games prior to showing the actual hardware.

It might be just that in docked mode you get max performance but not due to extra cooling but to the fact you dont have to worry about running out of battery life.
We already have a switch lite that doesnt have a tv hook up.
Might be the way forward?

 

[StereoVsn]

Reflex 2 also seems to be a huge step forwards.
Games are going to feel super snappy and responsive with it enabled, but with FG disabled.

At some point it’s a diminishing return I feel. If I am playing say SP Cyberpunk or KCD 2, beyond a certain point I would rather have more frames and higher image quality.

So Reflex 2 in conjunction with FG1 could give that balance between latency, frame rate and image quality.

 

[StereoVsn]

Are we sure it will have a dock mode?

I dont know man. Naturaly with all other new consoles they show some games prior to showing the actual hardware.

It might be just that in docked mode you get max performance but not due to extra cooling but to the fact you dont have to worry about running out of battery life.
We already have a switch lite that doesnt have a tv hook up.
Might be the way forward?

I think there are a lot of rumors floating around about fans being in the dock and a beefier power supply (60w vs 15w).

 

[winjer]

At some point it’s a diminishing return I feel. If I am playing say SP Cyberpunk or KCD 2, beyond a certain point I would rather have more frames and higher image quality.

So Reflex 2 in conjunction with FG1 could give that balance between latency, frame rate and image quality.

If this graph is real, Reflex 2 is going to be amazing for low latency gaming.

 

[Dorfdad]

Eh, FG is good enough. What I’m interested in is the reduced latency provided by Reflex 2. Combined with regular frame gen, we’re potentially looking at a latency lower than native, not merely equal or in the same ballpark. Of course, you can always not turn on frame gen to get an even lower latency, but at a certain point, you’re hitting massive diminishing returns. Same for multi frame gen. I don’t care much for 300fps.

Wonder how beneficial that would be for cloud gaming in cutting down even more latency!

 

[StereoVsn]

If this graph is real, Reflex 2 is going to be amazing for low latency gaming.

Really want to see some real benches now! I am probably try to grab 5070Ti site unseen from BestBuy (or 5080) and then see the reviews, lol.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Reflex 2 also seems to be a huge step forwards.
Games are going to feel super snappy and responsive with it enabled, but with FG disabled.

I thought Intel's new anti lag was impressive but it seems Nvidia was cooking in the meantime.

What do you think of the Blackwell presentation so far winjer ?

 

[DirtInUrEye]

They didn't show the latency without the framegen turned on.
Additionally, they are using DLSS in performance mode, which renders at 1080p internally. It would be interesting to see it in quality mode, which probably has more latency.

Absolutely, and it'll undoubtedly be awful input delays that are tangible to surely most PC players.

 

[amigastar]

transformer model is really impressive , works on any rtx card as well

Thats the thing i'm most hyped about. It looks way better than CNN Model.
Anyways here is some video clarifying it a bit (although its logical by itself)

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

transformer model is really impressive , works on any rtx card as well

Doesn’t look that much better to me, it is hardly noticeable without zooming in to that horizon demo they showed

 

[winjer]

I thought Intel's new anti lag was impressive but it seems Nvidia was cooking in the meantime.

What do you think of the Blackwell presentation so far winjer ?

What I don't like.
The 5070 with only 12GB. This is complete bullshit, for 2025 and a GPU in this price range.
Frame Generation 3X or 4X seems complete bollocks to pad graphs and pretend performance is much greater.
Power usage seems to be high, from the announced TDPs. I'm not referring to the recommended PSUs.

What I like.
Seems to be a decent performance boost, both in raster and RT.
The Transformer DLSS model, seems to be a great upgrade. Much better detail and fewer temporal artifacts.
Reflex 2 seems to be awesome. If that graph nVidia posted is real, and is applicable to more games, it will be awesome.

But my biggest issue, is that GPUs in Europe are very expensive. In part because of VAT, in part because of dollar to Euro rates.
So something like a 4070 Ti, might cost close to 900€.
But this is something that affects all vendors, be it Nvidia, AMD or Intel.

 

[3liteDragon]

The Frame Generation for 3 or 4 frames, is completely stupid time in between frames will be just too high.
But the new upscaler using transformers, instead of CNNs, seems to be a major leap in quality, both for DLSS and ray reconstruction.
Intel and AMD still haven't catch up to the previous DLSS in quality, and they are already making another jump. Impressive.

What do you think about Reflex 2, does it actually reduce latency? I watched Daniel Owens' video on it & he seems to be skeptical about how they're doing this. I don't know how it'll work in tandem with FG/MFG.

 

[StereoVsn]

What I don't like.
The 5070 with only 12GB. This is complete bullshit, for 2025 and a GPU in this price range.
Frame Generation 3X or 4X seems complete bollocks to pad graphs and pretend performance is much greater.
Power usage seems to be high, from the announced TDPs. I'm not referring to the recommended PSUs.

What I like.
Seems to be a decent performance boost, both in raster and RT.
The Transformer DLSS model, seems to be a great upgrade. Much better detail and fewer temporal artifacts.
Reflex 2 seems to be awesome. If that graph nVidia posted is real, and is applicable to more games, it will be awesome.

But my biggest issue, is that GPUs in Europe are very expensive. In part because of VAT, in part because of dollar to Euro rates.
So something like a 4070 Ti, might cost close to 900€.
But this is something that affects all vendors, be it Nvidia, AMD or Intel.

So 5070Ti will be €900ish? Not amazing but probably the only card that makes sense in the lineup.

Edit: I can already see the scalpers jumping on this one.

 

[mansoor1980]

Thats the thing i'm most hyped about. It looks way better than CNN Model.
Anyways here is some video clarifying it a bit (although its logical by itself)

excluding dlss and framegen , a 5070 is around 25 percent faster than 4070
good video

 

[winjer]

So 5070Ti will be €900ish? Not amazing but probably the only card that makes sense in the lineup.

Edit: I can already see the scalpers jumping on this one.

Depends on how many GPUs Nvidia pumps out for launch.
The 4000 series didn't have much scalper action going on, as far as I remember.

 

[amigastar]

One thing i wanna know is if New Transformer Model is more performance heavy compared to CNN Model?

 

[Buggy Loop]

But i sure would hope the switch 2 is better than the ps4 pro.

Otherwise consider yourself to be scammed.

No, it won't be. Not in a pure brute force way.

Base PS4 handheld in the range of 1.8 TFlops and ~3TFlops docked my prediction.

The advantages Switch 2 has is a much better architecture.

• PS4
  • GCN architecture was really bad with cache and too focused on computation. One of the major rework for RDNA was to restructure cache, it was that bad.
  • Jaguar CPUs. This was bulldozer era mobile CPU heavily downclocked that you would find in a $200 chromebook. I think everything has been said already on this CPU.
  • 8GB (not bad but for reference)
  • HDD
  • No particular modern I/O for streaming
  • No ML, no RT cores (duh, a product of its time)
• Switch 2 (again based on rumours)
  • Ampere architecture with Ada backported features. Ampere was a massive shift in efficiency on Nvidia side compared to RDNA or Turing.
    • Improvements in concurrent operations (concurrent raster/RT/ML, which Turing was not)
    • Asynchronous barrier to keep execution units always near full occupancy
    • Ampere global memory traffic for asynchronous memory copy and reducing memory traffic
    • Also served to hide data copy latency
  • A78 ARM CPUs. Completely destroys Jaguar cores
  • 12 GB
  • UFS 3.1 storage, a much more power efficient storage than SSD but similar speeds, ~2100MB/s read speed.
  • New I/O from either Ampere or the rumoured decompression engine added in the chip.
  • RT cores & ML tensor cores

Less TFlops, but much more modern, even by old architecture standards from Nvidia. Ampere was quite a paradigm shift and still influences 4000 and 5000 series.

We have never seen Nvidia Ampere/Ada unchained from DirectX API and Windows OS.
We've never seen Ampere with Nvidia's inhouse API, called NVN, being close to the metal until Switch 2. It can only be better as we see PC portables are trailing because of this overhead and unoptimized nature of PC rather than a closed platform with 1 dev kit.

Can it do PS5 with same assets? No
Can it do things that weren't possible on PS4 & PS4 pro? Yes
Will crossgen PS4-PS5 be ported on it? Most likely.

Is this already too much power for what Nintendo wants to do? Yes. This is a power territory that Nintendo will never exploit, they don't have the tech or budget like Sony did for PS4 games outputting Horizon forbidden west, uncharted 4, TLoU part 2 etc. It's basically an easy port machine with less memory constraints than a Series S

I don't see how having the above on a portable is a scam.

 

[Zathalus]

As always, these DF guys are complete sell outs. With this multi FG, the problem is not just the simple input latency. It's the input interval. You're basically getting 4 times the frame per each action you perform. Say if you have moved for 1/60 sec, your guy on the screen will move for next 4/60 sec. Which means if the base frame rate is 22, it still is effectively a 22 fps game when it comes to the control response. You're just getting 4 x the pictures. This is just crazy, and it's unbelievable to see these DF guys who's been saying how FG should've never been used in a low base frame rate games (say 30 to 60 like they did on PS5 Wukong) and now they keep their mouth shut for something like 20 to 80 LOL

Why are you making stuff up? They have never said nor claimed that 20 to 80 purely via frame generation is acceptable. Not even in this video. Heck, that screenshot you posted isn't even from a game, it's D5 render.

 

[DirtInUrEye]

Doesn’t look that much better to me, it is hardly noticeable without zooming in to that horizon demo they showed

It's noticeable when you zoom in 200%... cock in hand. I'm looking at you, Alex Battaglia.

Nah, it does look better. But I'm also not bothered about low poly NPCs being a bit blurry in my peripheral vision; the existing iterations of DLSS are already perfectly fine and satisfactory. But sure, I'll take the free upgrade.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

the existing iterations of DLSS are already perfectly fine and satisfactory. But sure, I'll take the free upgrade.

Agreed, that’s my point. The big jump was introducing the tech and ironing out initial kinks.

This in comparison is just really subtle improvements. Good to have of course but nothing game changing

 

[DirtInUrEye]

I wish they would change the fucking game by now though. It's either Cyberpunk or The Last of Us and I'm sick of the sight of both of them.

Use Indiana Jones instead.