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[adamsapple]

PS5 was a beta test for the PS5 Pro. PS4 Pro was a beta test for the PS5. PS4 was a beta test for the PS4 Pro. PS3 was a beta test for the PS4....and so on.

Calling them 'beta test' implies they weren't the final products meant for release, which the mammoth PS4/5 install base, over PS4/5 Pro, would go against.

 

[sendit]

Calling them 'beta test' implies they weren't the final products meant for release, which the mammoth PS4/5 install base, over PS4/5 Pro, would go against.

 

[adamsapple]

 

[Fake]

I have a feeling that Death Stranding 2 will be the pilot test for FSR4 integration to PSSR on PS5 pro.

FSR4 games are for 2026 as Cerny already told.

Decime have their own AI upscaler inbuild in the engine, as Horizon Zero Dawn remaster showed.

 

[Bojji]

Imagine being so agenda driven and such a fanboy/troll that you can't live in reality.

There are pros and cons to everything.

Microsoft has an "advantage" using Direct3D when it comes to something like boosting game framerates of older games. That's a unique situation where using Direct3D benefits.

Sony uses their own custom APIs which also reduce bottlenecks between hardware and software, which allows the PS5 despite not having as beefy a GPU as the XSX to outperform it pretty routinely.

So the idea that "sony can't be bothered" is beyond silly. Their API is different and no, rewriting the API to make a handful of games 60 fps is not their priority. Meanwhile Sony's engineering teams have delivered VR, PS Portal, as well as make expansions into PC with the PS accessories app, as well as having actually designed a next generation controller.

PC will be the best in that category, but also has its limitations and drawbacks in other areas. PCs will never be as efficient game machines as consoles and you're always going to have consoles outperform PCs for the same price and even outperform PCs that are significantly more expensive. They're also going to avoid things like shader compilation issues and will almost always have the best optimized versions of a game with the fewest crashes and glitches.

Who gives a fuck that game "x" was more optimized on PS4? It will still be limited to 1080p/30fps on every PS console no matter how powerful it will be. Compared to PC when you can run it 4k/120fps on average pc...

I tried sticking to consoles only for ~6 months in 2022 (my GPU was GTX9800+ lol), with SX and PS5 I thought I will be able to play anything I want. Of course new interesting games aren't dropping every day so when I looked at older stuff - TRAGEDY. Even on Xbox when you have some 360 and first Xbox game available most of them are fucking stuck in horrible resolutions and framerates...
On PS it's even worse.

Same thing will happen to PS5 games on PS6 and PS7. Games will be stuck to 60fps and their internal resolutions - while PS7 hardware would be able to run them in native 4k/120fps.

There is solution to that, games could have secret options would unlock when they detect more powerful hardware. Future proofed like PC games.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Who gives a fuck that game "x" was more optimized on PS4? It will still be limited to 1080p/30fps on every PS console no matter how powerful it will be. Compared to PC when you can run it 4k/120fps on average pc...

Who said anything about PS4? LOL, you really read what you want to read don't you. You have a problem. The optimization I'm referring to is PS5 games vs XSX and PS5 outperforming XSX 9 times out of 10 and no PC for comparable price is going to outperform PS5 or PS5 pro either.

I tried sticking to consoles only for ~6 months in 2022 (my GPU was GTX9800+ lol), with SX and PS5 I thought I will be able to play anything I want. Of course new interesting games aren't dropping every day so when I looked at older stuff - TRAGEDY. Even on Xbox when you have some 360 and first Xbox game available most of them are fucking stuck in horrible resolutions and framerates...
On PS it's even worse.

I don't care...

Same thing will happen to PS5 games on PS6 and PS7. Games will be stuck to 60fps and their internal resolutions - while PS7 hardware would be able to run them in native 4k/120fps.

There is solution to that, games could have secret options would unlock when they detect more powerful hardware. Future proofed like PC games.

lol, maybe in your wet dreams, but most games aren't locked to timing anymore, plenty of PS5 games have unlocked framerate modes and/or dynamic resolution.

Consoles have advantages over PC and PC have advantages over console. You try to pretend like that's not true and only focus on PC's advantages, and it's clownish behavior.

Consoles are more cost effective and far more consistent experiences. They also have physical media options. They also require far less tweaking and management. I think we've reached the point where there's not much value in discussing things with you.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Yes, the bolded is all I was saying. If there's proper context, the TF number still means "something". It tells part of the story. Obviously you shouldn't begin and end at the TF number for the PS6.



When will people start to understand that there's a reason all these AMD folks keep thanking and praising Sony for helping the creation of FSR4? I REALLY REALLY will be curious how Digital Foundry deals with this going forward.

They won't talk about it. At all. They'll continue their FUD campaign against the Pro by doubting Pro could do real FSR4. Once FSR4 is on PS5 Pro, they'll change the subject entirely and will talk about ahow XBOX next gen AI upscaling will so much better than PS6 AI upscaling. They are Micrsosoft shills, like the vast majority of mainstream media owned by the same corporations.

 

[viveks86]

It's not like TV/CD/MP3/AAC/FLAC because it keeps changing and each new generation the cost of making a game doubles.
Studios can't be expected to make great games and keep on top of the endless 'good news' Cerny's spewing.
Imagine paying a guy to stay on top of all of these improvements instead of doing something that users will actually care about - and this is for a 'pro' console that's less popular than the last 'pro' console.
No PS console has ever been fully utilized by any studio to the maximum of its HW potential as they're all EOL'd well before any studio has had a chance to.

There are too many strawman claims and hyperbole in your argument.

Game development studios are not struggling because of console generations. They are struggling because of over ambition, teams that are too large and inefficient to meet said ambition, developer churn, poor pay, inflationary forces, greed to make the next big Fortnite, bloated single player games with pointless "content", never ending GAAS and (to some extent) incompetent people making it to the top due to braindead company policies. Some of the blame goes to gamers as well, who just want to play the same damn game for years on end. The attach rates are pitiful and we are to blame for that. The industry is not struggling because they are trying to keep up with Cerny. That's a totally made up issue.

Each new generation does not automatically add cost to making games. If anything, it should reduce dev cost with fewer bottlenecks. Especially since the PS4. Nothing is EOL after that. Like Mibu no ookami rightly pointed out, since the move to x86 architecture, games are now forwards compatible with hardware and new hardware is backwards compatible with software. If a dev can't keep up with technical progress, they can still make wonderful games with their old ass engines. You can't look at Elden Ring or Metaphor and say that there is some pressure from Sony to get all devs to keep up with tech. All technological progress does is allow for devs that are feeling hamstrung by restrictive console performance express their vision better. They build these games on cutting edge development PCs that can do a LOT more than a console can. Most advancements in the past 2 console generations came from developer demand. Not the other way round. A developer is free to make a PS4 compatible game even now and if it's good, it will sell like hot cakes and scale well to PS5 and Pro if they used a decent enough engine. Nobody has a gun to their head to not do that.

And no PS console has ever been fully utilized? Have you spoken to any dev at all? They are constantly battling max utilization and bottlenecks, if anything. If you mean no dev has squeezed every single ounce out of the machine's capabilities with rigorous optimization, then I can agree. But why should that even be a goal? Who benefits from squeezing every single ounce? A console is simply a convenient fixed platform to put out your game on. Not some science project on energy conservation where they have to achieve near 100% efficiency.

I feel like your logic is all backwards. This is the first time I've seen a gamer wanting generations to last even longer. Devs taking longer to make their games is a problem to be fixed by devs. Not the hardware manufacturer. We shouldn't be holding back technological progress because some greedy AAA dev wants to make the next big thing. Make something smaller instead and recalibrate expectations.

 

[Gaiff]

No PS console has ever been fully utilized by any studio to the maximum of its HW potential as they're all EOL'd well before any studio has had a chance to.

Absolute bullshit.

 

[Bojji]

Who said anything about PS4? LOL, you really read what you want to read don't you. You have a problem. The optimization I'm referring to is PS5 games vs XSX and PS5 outperforming XSX 9 times out of 10 and no PC for comparable price is going to outperform PS5 or PS5 pro either.

I want to see the receipts. For example in MHW you have SX performing better in high resolutions and PS5 advantage in low resolutions.

And this optimization is game dependent, in Alan Wake 2 PS5 Pro is outperformed by fucking RTX 3070...

I don't care...

Well, you will care once you want to play some PS4 game on your PS5/PS6, even with Pro support it will be still be 30fps locked, "great" experience.

How about some PS3, PS2, PS1 game?

lol, maybe in your wet dreams, but most games aren't locked to timing anymore, plenty of PS5 games have unlocked framerate modes and/or dynamic resolution.

Consoles have advantages over PC and PC have advantages over console. You try to pretend like that's not true and only focus on PC's advantages, and it's clownish behavior.

Consoles are more cost effective and far more consistent experiences. They also have physical media options. They also require far less tweaking and management. I think we've reached the point where there's not much value in discussing things with you.

Lol, those resolutions are sometimes not even targeting 4k output, and 60fps is the ceiling for vast majority of games.

Consoles have their advantages, I never disagreed with that. Why you think I always have some console for last ~24 years? It was PS1-PS5.

 

[yogaflame]

FSR4 games are for 2026 as Cerny already told.

Decime have their own AI upscaler inbuild in the engine, as Horizon Zero Dawn remaster showed.

I see. Decima really is an impressive game engine. Well I expected that even old games by next year, will also received updated pro patched once the FSR4 integration to PSSR ML is fully implemented.

 

[vkbest]

I'm interested in tech and game graphics. Failures and successes of Pro are interesting to observe - this is one big beta test for PS6. Sony is learning.

You are not observing at all. You are only derailing PS5 Pro threads with false claims and absurd comparisons, when you confess you don't have the console and don't have interest in buy one. In other forums, you would have been banned months ago.

 

[Bojji]

You are not observing at all. You are only derailing PS5 Pro threads with false claims and absurd comparisons, when you confess you don't have the console and don't have interest in buy one. In other forums, you would have been banned months ago.

Are you fucking kidding me? Banned for different opinion? You want reset era hive mind here? I'm sorry for offending poor multibillion dollar company and their zealots here, hahaha.

 

[yogaflame]

Decima has its own reconstruction tech, it's likely that we will see this in DD2 and not PSSR (just like HZ1/2).



30fps/1080p games will be forever locked to that.



No? ML is new thing on consoles.

Could be. Decima engine really impressive. Decima engine and Cry engine are more impressive for me than UE. By the way, its possible that DS2 and other older games, will receive new pro patched early next year once FSR4 integration to PSSR ML is fully implemented. I think the reason that this FSR4+PSSR will be for next year is for full optimization, PSSR ML is properly trained, and it will be perfect implementation for all games that will receive update old or new. Sony don't want the same mess that happened to other games last ps5 pro launch. And to give time for developers training, new job aid, test, and optimizing.

 

[Bojji]

Could be. Decima engine really impressive. Decima engine and Cry engine are more impressive for me than UE. By the way, its possible that DS2 and other older games, will receive new pro patched early next year once FSR4 integration to PSSR ML is fully implemented. I think the reason that this FSR4+PSSR will be for next year is for full optimization, PSSR ML is properly trained, and it will be perfect implementation for all games that will receive update old or new. Sony don't want the same mess that happened to other games last ps5 pro launch. And to give time for developers training, new job aid, test, and optimizing.

Decima is a full multiplatform engine at this point. I agree, it's very impressive and I think this is the only engine that could really rival UE5 if it was more widespread.

It's missing RT and geometry system like nanite but I think these things will be implemented (or already are). I think Sony makes mistake for not using it more in their games.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Decima has its own reconstruction tech, it's likely that we will see this in DD2 and not PSSR (just like HZ1/2).



30fps/1080p games will be forever locked to that.



No? ML is new thing on consoles.

That reconstruction tech (aimed at PC as most don't have ML hardware) has its own problems, notably some stuff (leaves) are quite blurry in motion). I could see it immediately the first time I have seen it. Besides it's very expensive as the game actually runs at a lower framerate (it's probably very compute heavy, something PS5 Pro is not good at). That tech seems to be good in stills shot, like DLSS 3.X. The future of upscaling is AI upscaling. ML hardware in PS5 Pro is good, they have to use it.

 

[yogaflame]

Decima is a full multiplatform engine at this point. I agree, it's very impressive and I think this is the only engine that could really rival UE5 if it was more widespread.

It's missing RT and geometry system like nanite but I think these things will be implemented (or already are). I think Sony makes mistake for not using it more in their games.

Looks like a new version of Decima engine is being use and I watched the last years DF video analysis, about the trailer last year, and they were impress and there are some features that they notice like lighting and physics. DS2 is labeled pro enhance so maybe this time they will take advantage of PSSR support to the game, maybe even, secretly pilot testing FSR4+PSSR ML integration. Well there are very few Sony exclusives especially with open world in the last 3 years of Ps5. But this years starting with DS2, and next year onwards, there are so many upcoming Sony exclusives, and I hope they use the Decima engine more at maybe sell that tech to other 3rd party developers. For example, for me, MHWild could had been much better in technical performance if its was on Decima engine.

 

[Zathalus]

That reconstruction tech (aimed at PC as most don't have ML hardware) has its own problems,

Huh? Most do have ML hardware. Over 70% of the GPUs on Steam have the ability to run DLSS.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Huh? Most do have ML hardware. Over 70% of the GPUs on Steam have the ability to run DLSS.

I thought it was just the discrete market they had that market share. I didn't realise APU GPUS are less than 70% + AMD's discrete share of Steam. Steam at those percentages is really a AA/AAA PC platform, now on that basis., wow.

 

[SKYF@ll]

Well, you will care once you want to play some PS4 game on your PS5/PS6, even with Pro support it will be still be 30fps locked, "great" experience.

For example, my favorite PS4 game, Star Wars Battlefront, runs smoothly on the PS5 Pro.
Xbox One:1280*720/60fps
PS4:1080p/30fps 1600*900/60fps
PS5 Pro:900p?/60fps *2x fast loading *Enhance Image Quality 4K upscale

 

[Bojji]

For example, my favorite PS4 game, Star Wars Battlefront, runs smoothly on the PS5 Pro.
PS4:1080p/30fps
PS5 Pro:1080p/60fps *2x fast loading *Enhance Image Quality 4K upscale

This game was always 60, even on Xbox One:

 

[Gaiff]

This game was always 60, even on Xbox One:

That's what people mean whey they bemoan the optimization of modern games. Battlefront still looks very good and even on consoles looked decent. Yet, it still managed to mostly remain at 60fps in huge battles at 900-1080p on PS4.

See Monster Hunter Wilds that came out almost a decade later, looks like junk, runs at a similar base resolution, but performs much worse on a console that's 5x as powerful.

 

[Bojji]

That's what people mean whey they bemoan the optimization of modern games. Battlefront still looks very good and even on consoles looked decent. Yet, it still managed to mostly remain at 60fps in huge battles at 900-1080p on PS4.

See Monster Hunter Wilds that came out almost a decade later, looks like junk, runs at a similar base resolution, but performs much worse on a console that's 5x as powerful.

Yeah, some games totally deserve criticism. I mean, UE5 games have excuse of calculating real time global illumination, nanite, VSM etc. But fucking Monster Hunter does nothing like that...

Mirror's Edge still looks very good and everything was baked in that game (except amazing physx system). Developers forgot how to do stuff like that. Japanese devs used to create games that looked worse than others on technical level but had amazing art and were light on hardware. Now many of them look and perform like shit.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Mirror's Edge!

Game is a GEM on PC!

 

[Gaiff]

Mirror's Edge!

Game is a GEM on PC!

Yeah, too bad it's one of the games NVIDIA ruined on RTX 50 cards by phasing out PhysX 32-bit support. The guys lamenting these proprietary technologies 15 years ago ended up being right.

 

[Bojji]

Mirror's Edge!

Game is a GEM on PC!

Yeah, too bad it's one of the games NVIDIA ruined on RTX 50 cards by phasing out PhysX 32-bit support. The guys lamenting these proprietary technologies 15 years ago ended up being right.

I played it on 8800GS in 2009 and was blown away by physics. I think it's still the best usage of this tech:




Fucking 2009 game...

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Yeah, too bad it's one of the games NVIDIA ruined on RTX 50 cards by phasing out PhysX 32-bit support. The guys lamenting these proprietary technologies 15 years ago ended up being right.

Yeah :/

 

[SKYF@ll]

This game was always 60, even on Xbox One:

When I played on PS5 Pro, the response was good and smooth, so I mistakenly thought that the PS4 version (from my old memory) was 30 fps.
Thank you for pointing that out. I have corrected the post.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Yeah, too bad it's one of the games NVIDIA ruined on RTX 50 cards by phasing out PhysX 32-bit support. The guys lamenting these proprietary technologies 15 years ago ended up being right.

Well at least emulating PS3 on PC will still run better on a 5090 than the native PC version, yes?

 

[viveks86]

DS2 is labeled pro enhance so maybe this time they will take advantage of PSSR support to the game, maybe even, secretly pilot testing FSR4+PSSR ML integration.

If GG is packaging their custom voodoo upscaler with their engine and Kojima is allowed to use it, this may not happen. Their solution looked on par or even better than FSR4. I hope that makes it to the pro version.

 

[Bojji]

When I played on PS5 Pro, the response was good and smooth, so I mistakenly thought that the PS4 version (from my old memory) was 30 fps.
Thank you for pointing that out. I have corrected the post.

Number of 60fps games on PS4/X1 isn't long, so no wonder you remembered it wrong.

Well at least emulating PS3 on PC will still run better on a 5090 than the native PC version, yes?

No? PS3 version has worse textures and everything. And with turned off physx it will run just fine on 50xx.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Number of 60fps games on PS4/X1 isn't long, so no wonder you remembered it wrong.

You mean like all the competitive MP shooters, sports, fighting and many racing games - that make up the vast majority of game sales on console each gen?

No? PS3 version has worse textures and everything.

But that wouldn't stop the emulation crowd from replacing them, or turning on the AA to x16, and even if not, 2048x2048 textures with physics versus less physics and better textures would still favour PS3. Anyway, I remember playing the demo on our Sony KDL-46X3000 reference TV for PS3 back then and the textures were excellent.

 

[Bojji]

But that wouldn't stop the emulation crowd from replacing them, or turning on the AA to x16, and even if not, 2048x2048 textures with physics versus less physics and better textures would still favour PS3. Anyway, I remember playing the demo on our Sony KDL-46X3000 reference TV for PS3 back then and the textures were excellent.

PS3 version has no physx effects. I remember comparing them in 2009...

 

[PaintTinJr]

PS3 version has no physx effects. I remember comparing them in 2009...

You'll need receipts for that claim- not saying it might not be true - just because PhysX had a marketing deal with the platform given they provided a Quadro as the RSX and ported PhysX to run on the Cell BE.

 

[Bojji]

You'll need receipts for that claim- not saying it might not be true - just because PhysX had a marketing deal with the platform given they provided a Quadro as the RSX and ported PhysX to run on the Cell BE.

It was a lot of PR bullshit. Physx in PC version runs only on GPU.

(timestamped)

Same place on PC:

They added more objects in PC version plus physx elements.

 

[Gaiff]

Well at least emulating PS3 on PC will still run better on a 5090 than the native PC version, yes?

Not even sure how it runs on RPCS3, so I wouldn't know.

If GG is packaging their custom voodoo upscaler with their engine and Kojima is allowed to use it, this may not happen. Their solution looked on par or even better than FSR4. I hope that makes it to the pro version.

Almost guaranteed they'll be using it. Do we know the approximate cost of GG's solution in terms of ms? I assume it has to be costlier than PSSR.

 

[viveks86]

Almost guaranteed they'll be using it. Do we know the approximate cost of GG's solution in terms of ms? I assume it has to be costlier than PSSR.

Seems more or less comparable as they were checkerboarding to 1800p earlier versus 1440p to 4k reconstruction on pro, plus a host of other enhancements that exceeded previous fidelity settings. It may even be faster than PSSR, actually

 

[Fafalada]

It was a lot of PR bullshit. Physx in PC version runs only on GPU.

PhysX was ported (and license free back then for PS3, when it was still paid product).
Apex wasn't - that remained NVGpu exclusive (Apex CPU path was deliberately crippled to single-thread, so it was never viable by design).

Also why most of these titles run fine on PC until particles/fluids are on-screen - the rest of PhysX runs just fine on CPU (in fact main-solver GPU path was often not faster, even on 2018 era GPUs).

 

[PaintTinJr]

It was a lot of PR bullshit. Physx in PC version runs only on GPU.

(timestamped)

Same place on PC:

They added more objects in PC version plus physx elements.

I hadn't realised but the game shipped 4-6months later on PC, and the 360 and PS3 versions were abandoned without patches, so the PC enhanced edition features like in the picture are indeed Nvidia PC with PhysX 32bit enhancement exclusive.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

You are not observing at all. You are only derailing PS5 Pro threads with false claims and absurd comparisons, when you confess you don't have the console and don't have interest in buy one. In other forums, you would have been banned months ago.

Well what did you expect from bojii the bozo

 

[adamsapple]

It was a lot of PR bullshit. Physx in PC version runs only on GPU.

(timestamped)

Same place on PC:

They added more objects in PC version plus physx elements.

Xbox version doesn't have those extra PhysX stuff either but at least MS was nice enough to give it both a Res and FPS boost, it holds up REMARKABLY well at 4K/60.

The angular layout and solid colors benefit greatly from a high resolution.

 

[Jesb]

So this will make the pro worth it now?

 

[vivftp]

So this will make the pro worth it now?

It's worth it to many now. This will make it even more worth it

 

[Physiognomonics]

This game was always 60, even on Xbox One:

From Star Wars Battlefront we regressed in so many areas, very sad.

 

[Fafalada]

it holds up REMARKABLY well at 4K/60.

ME is one of those games that really takes full advantage of GI - but also would benefit next to nothing from making it realtime (as shown by the sequel that just - plain looks worse with fully dynamic lighting).
Specular/reflective components would be nice add-on in some areas (there was a RT version of one level that looked relatively-nice) but anything like full pathtracing would not add value without redesigning the game first.

 

[adamsapple]

ME is one of those games that really takes full advantage of GI - but also would benefit next to nothing from making it realtime (as shown by the sequel that just - plain looks worse with fully dynamic lighting).

I agree, the original game looks more striking and distinct than the sequel.