mansoor1980
Gold Member
how does the PC version of DD2 run , any benchmarks? im curiousNot as afraid as PS5 owners seeing this:
That 45% upgrade won't help...
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Digital Foundry - Playstation 5 Pro specs analysis, also new information
- Thread starter Gaiff
- Start date
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Sadly you are most definitely correct
Kacho
Gold Member
Tomorrow morning we’ll know when the embargo lifts
Neo_game
Member
I don't think that is true at all. Most likely fast paced games will be 60fps on base PS5. Obviously CPU bound games will not gain much from 10% boost. But GPU is and will always be the most important factor in games. If PSSR turns out to be good, Pro will likely meet the expectation, which I think are not too high anyways.
Mr Moose
Member
Oh shit, it's out in 3 days
James Sawyer Ford
Member
It's going to run like ass across the board. Games like this aren't solved by Pro consoles or Master Race PCs
Ass is Ass, my friend. And it will always be Ass. You can't brute force your way out of it
Belthazar
Member
I really don't get the concern trolling over the CPU upgrade being too small... CPU bound games are very few and far between.
Wooxsvan
Member
well, unpatched id say definitely not, but if they use PSSR as well, i think it will help quite a bit. now if this particular section is purely CPU bottleneck then of course not.Not as afraid as PS5 owners seeing this:
That 45% upgrade won't help...
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Yup one of the reasons for this is usually post-processing. reconstruction tech works funny, in that there is actually a load of IQ work applied to the image after DLSS/PSSR would have made its pass on what would now be the final out resolution. The more of the final image you have in the native render pass, the more of a performance boost you will see.
Typically, I would be filled with dread on how devs would abuse this on the PS5pro. But thankfully, we have the PS5, which means they still have to at least have a version of their game running decently on that SKU. If this feature was something present from launch day, we would be seeing devs struggle to get native 1080p running at 30fps on these consoles today. Devs would always follow the path of least resistance lol.
Kacho
Gold Member
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
That DF video is infuriating.
They totally miss the point that the key thing about a "Pro" console is that its always going to be secondary to the standard SKU because it can never match or exceed its user-base.
It will never get software published exclusively on it.
It will never have software that requires its capabilities above that of the base model.
Its main selling point is that its a more performant PS5.
To achieve this product goal they need to make its benefits demonstrably obvious. As much of their content library as possible needs to be enhanced when run on it, which means by extension taking advantage of its features need to be cost-effective for developers.
This is a huge consideration because as I started by saying, its all about the relative install bases size! Its a no-brainer to primarily target the one you stand to shift the most units on.
Yes, there's a favourable aspect promotionally in being able to show your product off to its best advantage using footage/images generated by the high-tier platform, but if the standard/low-tier version develops a rep for being severely compromised... its going to hurt sales.
Essentially what we're looking at as the Playstation 5 Series X.
The only difference is the way the product's been rolled out compared to the simultaneous launch of the S and X duo. By delaying it till midway through the cycle its just perceived differently by the public and development community alike.
They totally miss the point that the key thing about a "Pro" console is that its always going to be secondary to the standard SKU because it can never match or exceed its user-base.
It will never get software published exclusively on it.
It will never have software that requires its capabilities above that of the base model.
Its main selling point is that its a more performant PS5.
To achieve this product goal they need to make its benefits demonstrably obvious. As much of their content library as possible needs to be enhanced when run on it, which means by extension taking advantage of its features need to be cost-effective for developers.
This is a huge consideration because as I started by saying, its all about the relative install bases size! Its a no-brainer to primarily target the one you stand to shift the most units on.
Yes, there's a favourable aspect promotionally in being able to show your product off to its best advantage using footage/images generated by the high-tier platform, but if the standard/low-tier version develops a rep for being severely compromised... its going to hurt sales.
Essentially what we're looking at as the Playstation 5 Series X.
The only difference is the way the product's been rolled out compared to the simultaneous launch of the S and X duo. By delaying it till midway through the cycle its just perceived differently by the public and development community alike.
PixelatedBeast
Member
Hold on.... You think a 1000.00$ rig is strong enough to run games like HFW and GOT later this year? At 4k60 like the ps5?
We'll just have to wait and see.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
You often can. If there are stutters, however, good luck.
yamaci17
Member
this is how a mediocre 6700xt 10400f rig performed in jedi survivor while ps5 was choking itself trying to ray tracing with the zen 2 CPU
dragon dogma 2 will be similar. people will disable ray tracing, most will get 40-70 FPS and move on
solution PC was simple: disabling ray tracing. it took months for developers to come up with that solution for consoles. lol. just don't do ray tracing if the cpu can't handle it. pc folks are smart and will disable ray tracing if it causes the game to run at a rocky 30 fps, simple as that
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Kacho
Gold Member
I don’t use AMD hardware.
yamaci17
Member
point still stands. if you have a decent cpu (12400f and upwards) you will also get decent framerate with ray tracing. anything else will have to disable ray tracing
chances are if you have something more than 3080 that can handle the ray tracing in these games, you will have a decent CPU that can accompany it
problem is, ps5's gpu or cpu can't handle ray tracing and both struggled big time in jedi survivor. it clearly is the same case with dragon dogma. i maybe proven wrong. we will see tomorrow. but most people will post benchmarks without ray tracing on midrange hardware. no one with a ryzen 3600 or 10400f should try to run dragon dogma 2 with ray tracing. clearly these CPUs cant handle it in this game at its current state
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Hold on.... You think a 1000.00$ rig is strong enough to run games like HFW and GOT later this year? At 4k60 like the ps5?
We'll just have to wait and see.
With upscaling, why not?
paolo11
Member
Will this work on unpatched games or do the games have to be patched for ps5 pro? I just the ff7 trilogy to have very nice IQ on performance mode. (And FF16 too if possible
yamaci17
Member
on PC, people have created mods that could create bridges between FSR and DLSS. People were literally able to replace a DLSS implementation with FSR 2 so that people without DLSS capable cards were able to play those games with FSR 2 upscaling despite FSR 2 was not added to them yet. and vice versa, you could inject DLSS in a game that supported FSR 2 (starfield only launched with fsr 2 and it took mere minutes for someone to come up with the FSR to DLSS mod).
Within API boundaries, I could totally see a way for sony to somehow inject/replace temporal upscalers with PSSR. But I will say it will probably be limited to their 1st party games and will be provided as soft updates (like how they updated last of us part 2 with 60 fps on ps5)
Kacho
Gold Member
I have a 4070ti and disable ray tracing on everything because I’m terrified of potential performance issues. Blows my mind that devs force it in games on console. Didn’t they remove ray tracing from Jedi Survivor on console leading to huge performance gains?
Bojji
Member
at some point I also feel bad about ps5 userbase actually. it seems like a scam, PSSR will allow insanely better image quality output than fsr 2 if it can fit somewhere between xess and dlss. so it means that ps5 pro will be able to have better quality per pixel (the argument that i've been using for dlss for a while now) my friend who bought ps5 as his first console is actually fuming if pssr does not end up on ps5 (and most likely won't...)
while %45 upgrade won't help that much, we can say that perceived image quality will probably see a huge upgrade. this never happened between ps4 and ps4 pro, ps4 pro just had fancy checkerboard but it was to make 4k workable. pssr on ps5 pro and fsr 2 on ps5 will create a weird situation. ps4 still forced developers to optimize competent TAA for it so that ps4 pro can checkerboard its way in. now most devs will slap fsr 2 + pssr on respective consoles and we will have this weird disparity we're having on pc between amd and nvidia cards
i'm glad even people who paid 300 bucks for a 2060 back in 2018 do not have these kind of issues though.
pssr should've been there on ps5, supported by hardware at launch. it is interesting really. it seems like ps5 was not designed with future proof upscaling in mind. it is definitely not a worthy successor to the PS4 imo.
Yeah I'm hugely disappointed with IQ in PS5 games, I hoped for CB 4K in most games (looks great in GOW and HZD) but looks like most developers can't achieve that in performance modes. FSR2 with low base resolution looks like trash...
PS5 owners will have to live with that shit image quality or 30FPS framerate, I will upgrade to Pro for sure.
You need more than 100% more power to bring this game to 60, even if it's purely GPU limit I don't think it is possible.
Hold on.... You think a 1000.00$ rig is strong enough to run games like HFW and GOT later this year? At 4k60 like the ps5?
We'll just have to wait and see.
This PC has GPU close in power to the one in PS5 Pro so it won't have any problem running GoT in 4k 60FPS - PS5 version uses CB so it's 50% of 4K. Horizon won't be 4K 60FPS but it will be closer to it than PS5, console version is 4K 30FPS (or below 1440p dynamic res in 60fps mode).
yamaci17
Member
yes which is what I'm talking about actually
drama about dragon dogma 2 would've been avoided if devs simply decided against forcing ray tracing. I'm sure it is ray tracing. they should have their own internal reasons for doing that. jedi developers probably thought forcing horrible cpu performance alongside with ray tracing was justified because SSR in the game was atrocious and unoptimized. but they reversed their decision in the end and removed ray tracing from performance mode while improving the SSR and lighting effects that were broken without ray tracingI've come to believe dragon dogma 2 will heavily rely on ray tracing to overcome graphical artifacts. they must also think ray tracing makes their game "next gen" or something. no idea about the obsession. at this point im sure they've abused ray tracing just to create shortcuts into releasing the game sooner.
funny thing is though, the artifacts they're scared off, most people won't care. most people on pc didn't care about ssr artifacts in jedi survivor for example.
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Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
at some point I also feel bad about ps5 userbase actually. it seems like a scam, PSSR will allow insanely better image quality output than fsr 2 if it can fit somewhere between xess and dlss. so it means that ps5 pro will be able to have better quality per pixel (the argument that i've been using for dlss for a while now) my friend who bought ps5 as his first console is actually fuming if pssr does not end up on ps5 (and most likely won't...)
while %45 upgrade won't help that much, we can say that perceived image quality will probably see a huge upgrade. this never happened between ps4 and ps4 pro, ps4 pro just had fancy checkerboard but it was to make 4k workable. pssr on ps5 pro and fsr 2 on ps5 will create a weird situation. ps4 still forced developers to optimize competent TAA for it so that ps4 pro can checkerboard its way in. now most devs will slap fsr 2 + pssr on respective consoles and we will have this weird disparity we're having on pc between amd and nvidia cards
i'm glad even people who paid 300 bucks for a 2060 back in 2018 do not have these kind of issues though.
pssr should've been there on ps5, supported by hardware at launch. it is interesting really. it seems like ps5 was not designed with future proof upscaling in mind. it is definitely not a worthy successor to the PS4 imo.
It's so crazy to see someone say PS5 I'd not a worthy successor to PS4 because on paper it looks like it is. I mean, this is the first time in forever that a console had a good CPU- that combined with all the promises of the SSD/io and knowing UE5 was on its way made myself and a lot of others feel pretty good heading into this generation.
Sadly I agree with you though. The proof is in the pudding. Look though at the way things have turned out: no real next gen graphics and 3 years of both consoles struggling to do 60 fps at good settings and resolutions. The Last year now has also been marked by bad image quality to the point where its clear a Pro console is needed. To which Sony agree.
I think now it's clear that Sony made an very unbalanced console, by focusing on the SSD instead of upscaling and a more powerful GPU. Here is where I believe console gaming is a scam this generation- the SSD/Io has been totally underused and Sony hasn't done much to improve their first party engines to utilize it.
Sony and MS have gotten away without delivering a next gen leap for the first time in console history because console gamers have such low standards and flat out defend these companies. You factor in higher game prices, how we're still forced to pay a yearly fee just to be able to play online (for games we've already paid $70 for), and the disgusting return policies and it really does feel like console gamers are just kind of abused.
Kacho
Gold Member
I’d have to compare the before and after in person to truly see the difference, but based of the PS5 footage I’ve seen it doesn’t look very transformative. My guess is the game looks even more blown out without ray tracing.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
No. But from what has been disclosed, everything made before the ver.9 sdk will allow or support devs going in and patching in PSSR. and everything made on ver.9+ of the SDK will support the full PS5pro feature set. It should be relatively easy patching in PSSR though, but it has to be patched in to support it.
I have some questions on the whole BC stuff though, but thats another story.
I think it'll be interesting seeing the variances here.
For example - I recall titles that only got improvements in 60% range on PS4Pro out of the box. And only after dedicated optimisations you could get closer to that 'real' 2x delta (ie. the boost wasn't always 'free' - not even close).
Admittedly - we don't know if there's any headroom left here (could be more fundamental limitations getting hit).
Changing resolution/IQ will need patches if it's not DRS title. But the big deal is that they also allow retrofitting PSSR into older games without upgrading to new SDK, which is something PS4Pro never got. So much higher likelihood of older games on FSR2 etc. just getting that updated (think of it like the DLL swap hacks on PC to support DLSS/FSR).
yamaci17
Member
this is how it was with jedi survivor (10:56) notice also cal's hair is horribly shaded for some reason. but they fixed that for rasterization alongside with patch 7
it is mostly extreme SSR artifacts. I mean SSR always had problems, it is after all a screen space effect. but I've never seen such horrible SSR before
this will be one of the funniest highlights of this generation. enforcing <25 fps cpu bound drops because they had to force ray tracing for some reason
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Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
yes which is what I'm talking about actually
I've come to believe dragon dogma 2 will heavily rely on ray tracing to overcome graphical artifacts. they must also think ray tracing makes their game "next gen" or something. no idea about the obsession. at this point im sure they've abused ray tracing just to create shortcuts into releasing the game sooner.
funny thing is though, the artifacts they're scared off, most people won't care. most people on pc didn't care about ssr artifacts in jedi survivor for example.
Marketing buzzword and it may make dev slightly easier ..
I can't believe devs are still getting away with only releasing ONE mode for a game in 2024 ...esp when it runs so badly. Why isn't there a non rt mode? It's bizarre to me.
Frwrd
Member
yamaci17
Member
i don't really know but as I said, jedi survivor at launch on PC was mostly fine as long as you disabled ray tracing and if you had a crappy CPU. Source: me and my 2700x. No ray tracing ? game performs okay. yeah you get the usual PC asset loading stutters. but game mostly is stable and gets high framerates almost everywhere, Koboh included (45+ fps most of the time). ray tracing on? brutal <30 fps drops, rocky 30 fps most of the time etc.
i played it with ea play pro, if it hits base ea play, I will do some tests to showcase the stark difference of what ray tracing does in that game. It almost feels like they rushed ray tracing (a technology that they relied on to rush the game itself). dragon dogma 2 appears to be doing the same. it is funny
i'm sure tomorrow people with ryzen 3600s will disable ray tracing, get 40-60 fps stable, and happily game away while people on console will fume because game cannot hold a stable 30 FPS.
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Ovech-King
Member
The super sampling solution is the main thing to look forward here. If this thing can run everything internal at 1080p 60fps and upscale at a pristine 4K , with that kind of hardware you will have gorgeous games with no resolution OR fps comprises. That's golden
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LavitzSlambert
Member
Even the DF guys agree the Pro seems mostly pointless. But I think in reading their analysis, I may have finally figured out the reasons Sony is doing this:
1. It will be a nice real-world test of PSSR so they can get it right on PS6. Also gives a good idea of the consumer response to pushing ray tracing on consoles.
2. People expect it, and there is an audience that will buy it regardless.
3. Sony feels they need to have some level of parity in terms of experience between their console business and their PC ports. They don't want to release a PC port of their games targeting the base PS5 spec in 2025 and beyond, and they certainly don't want to release a better version of their games on PC and scare consumers away from their console business.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
While I agree with everything you said I highlighted this point because of course they feel that way
I just wonder how they would have felt if Xbox would have done this with these exact same specs
MisterXDTV
Member
At this point I’m waiting for Cerny’s “Road to PS5 Pro” more than the console itself
The must-watch video of the year!
The must-watch video of the year!
jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
wait, wait, wait.... what are you suggesting?
I think Alex had the correct reaction about PSSR.
Ashamam
Member
Yeah they kind of lead with that, but when you watch the whole thing they can't avoid arriving at the conclusion it could make a big difference to what games look like. So they are holding two opposing positions simultaneously. Neat mental trick imo. /s
ChiefDada
Member
There was a recent tweet NXG took down that suggested game doesn't discriminate between platforms with its questionable cpu performance.
paolo11
Member
How do I know which games are made before ver.9? Sorry I’m a noob
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
I'm going to need to see the receipts before buying the Pro. Sony will need to have some impressive demo's to show off.
The CPU speed bump is very disappointing, will it hold things back like the PS4 Pro?
The CPU speed bump is very disappointing, will it hold things back like the PS4 Pro?
ChorizoPicozo
Member
The pro is not meant to be a paradigm shit. games are not designed for the pro. they are designed for the base console.
peish
Member
VRS is, i guess, silently doing its job for Xbox, improving fps stability while staying invisible to us.
Were they supposed to disable a feature that comes with it? Do not see them shouting about it from the rooftops. They have a capable suite of alternatives including pretty powerful multi resolution render targets HW support, they will be fine
sony bespoke solutions always comes with a lot of buzz but turns out to be nothing above other solutions, such as vrs which sony now, as seen by DF, prouds to list down as a new ps5 pro capabilities....
yamaci17
Member
ray tracing in jedi survivor is so heavy on CPU that there's a situation where ryzen 5600x becomes a bottleneck for a lowly rx 6600 without ray tracing:
9:30
now imagine rx 6600 combined with a much lower CPU, such as 3600 or in the console case, something that is even slower than 3600... I'm not saying PS5 GPU is fast for ray tracing. but it shouldn't drop below 30, especially with dynamic resolution. the fact that 5600x drops below 45 fps, no wonder ps5 cpu cannot keep up with this game's ray tracing.
exact same thing will happen with dragon dogma 2 too. it will destroy CPUs with ray tracing on PC and console alike. some developers cannot optimize ray tracing for CPU and create immense bottlenecks.
sorry that my initial video was without ray tracing. But I've managed to find one with ray tracing and still a CPU bottleneck (6:40 and so on):
rx 6600 still gets underutilizations even with a 12400f and ray tracing enabled. and koboh area should be even harder to render for CPU.
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Kacho
Gold Member
It’s just the reality of these hardware refreshes. You will see an IQ boost and games will perform slightly better. If you play on console the Pro will give you the best experience possible until the next generation, something you’ll have to pay a premium for. Whether that’s worth it to you…ymmv.
DeathGuise
Member
It sounds like they don't like it. The CPU upgrade is negligible and the GPU upgrade is, according to them, going to be bottlenecked by it.
Maybe we'll finally be able to play Bloodborne at 30 FPS
Maybe we'll finally be able to play Bloodborne at 30 FPS
dorkimoe
Member
this is how it was with jedi survivor (10:56) notice also cal's hair is horribly shaded for some reason. but they fixed that for rasterization alongside with patch 7
it is mostly extreme SSR artifacts. I mean SSR always had problems, it is after all a screen space effect. but I've never seen such horrible SSR before
this will be one of the funniest highlights of this generation. enforcing <25 fps cpu bound drops because they had to force ray tracing for some reason
This game ran like fucking ass on my series x, really ruined the experience for me
playsaves3
Banned
CPU also affects doing more raytracing… we have been through this bullcrap before when I was saying it was a travesty the base ps5 used zen 2 instead of zen 3 its gonna be even worse herePro will unlock a new level of ray tracing effects and performance on consoles and the AI upscaler will get rid of all the limits of FSR/FSR2/traditional upscaling.
Things like GT7 with real time ray tracing or FF7 Rebirth looking like quality mode at 60fps will be possible.
That's enough reasons to be excited for me.
CPU being almost the same is expected, it's a mid gen gen upgrade not a new platform, switching to new cores would increase R&D costs, time to market and create possible BC issues. Not worth it for a few CPU limited games.
Microsoft won't have a similar product this year