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Do you believe "voting with your wallet" works?
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ShadowNate
Member
It does work. Certainly on a personal level. Avoid the crappy uninspired games, companies with terrible support, or non-existing post-release maintenance, the pre-orders of overhyped titles, the shady marketing practices of selling extra content attached to preorders or specific "collector's editions" and so on.
It's just that everyone is "voting" with their wallet and more people seem to fall for being sold dreams, hype, trinkets and shitty games with great graphics just to have something to make use of the power of their expensive hardware.
Also, on the other corner, piracy does not work as a protest or "voting". If anything it consistently has made things worse for the industry (...), And it actively hurts the voting with your wallet tactic.
It's just that everyone is "voting" with their wallet and more people seem to fall for being sold dreams, hype, trinkets and shitty games with great graphics just to have something to make use of the power of their expensive hardware.
Also, on the other corner, piracy does not work as a protest or "voting". If anything it consistently has made things worse for the industry (...), And it actively hurts the voting with your wallet tactic.
Dust-by-Monday
Member
We’re not getting a days gone sequel because not enough people bought the game to support it. So yeah it works.
MiguelItUp
Member
Games that sell very well typically get sequels and/or spin-offs. Games that don't sell well or under sell typically don't receive future sequels or content.
It does work, but in order to be effective specific variables have to be met. Or, to be more accurate, not be met.
It does work, but in order to be effective specific variables have to be met. Or, to be more accurate, not be met.
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
Xbox's who resurgence, from gamepass to the Bethesda buy was all about voting with you wallet. They offered shit and people skipped, so they lost so bad the tradition console space became non viable for them to compete in. Now they turned the ship around, but none of that happens if consumers didn't skip on the product.
01011001
Banned
it doesn't work... what game is selling well and what game is not 100% depends on the blind masses that just buy games based on name recognition, hype or advertisements.
good games don't necessarily sell well, bad games don't necessarily sell badly. games with terrible business practices don't necessarily die and the ones with good practices don't necessarily survive.
the poster child of that is Titanfall 2, better and more consumer friendly than the 2 other big FPS games that released close to it, yet the worse games sold well and survived while Titanfall 2 didn't.
so in theory voting with your wallet does work, in practice it doesn't since most consumers just don't care that they get treated like shit
the worst Pizza place in my town is there since I was in first grade... better ones have come and gone, yet it remains, worse than ever even.
good games don't necessarily sell well, bad games don't necessarily sell badly. games with terrible business practices don't necessarily die and the ones with good practices don't necessarily survive.
the poster child of that is Titanfall 2, better and more consumer friendly than the 2 other big FPS games that released close to it, yet the worse games sold well and survived while Titanfall 2 didn't.
so in theory voting with your wallet does work, in practice it doesn't since most consumers just don't care that they get treated like shit
the worst Pizza place in my town is there since I was in first grade... better ones have come and gone, yet it remains, worse than ever even.
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Hero of Spielberg
Member
No. I haven’t bought a new console, or a game in months and the games industry seems to be doing ok.
And it still sold 13 million copies in it's first month.
Yes, it works. But you can't realize that because it's not something you have to say or show, it's more something under the hood: if a game fail or succeed it's because you're already voted with your wallet.
Edit:for people who say "it doesn't work because I voted pro/against and nothing happened", it's because more people votes against you.
Cyberpunk has sold 13M copies 'cause most of the people voted yes to "would you play a broken but promising game?" They actually voted, just against you.
Edit:for people who say "it doesn't work because I voted pro/against and nothing happened", it's because more people votes against you.
Cyberpunk has sold 13M copies 'cause most of the people voted yes to "would you play a broken but promising game?" They actually voted, just against you.
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KormaChameleon
Member
I imagine it does. Look at the Xbox One original DRM policy. Awful. People sound off online, pre-order numbers were very low (I worked in Game at the time and can confirm this). Did a 180 on them, pre-orders numbers increased but nowhere near good as PS4 at the time.
CuNi
Member
It absolutely does.
The issue why it seems otherwise is, that there is always someone being upset about small issues. Like, if 100 players were to boycott World of Warcraft, they couldn't care less. When it would be 25% of the whole playerbase, you can be sure they would listen. If you are a minority, that obviously doesn't work. But if it's a "big fuckup" and potentially angers a large portion of the potential buyers, then it absolutely does work.
The issue why it seems otherwise is, that there is always someone being upset about small issues. Like, if 100 players were to boycott World of Warcraft, they couldn't care less. When it would be 25% of the whole playerbase, you can be sure they would listen. If you are a minority, that obviously doesn't work. But if it's a "big fuckup" and potentially angers a large portion of the potential buyers, then it absolutely does work.
TheWanderingOgre
Member
It works.
It takes time though. And so few actually do it that many, many times change doesnt come.
It takes time though. And so few actually do it that many, many times change doesnt come.
It works for japanese games on PC and first party games on PC as well.
But you need companies to make the first move. 10 or more years ago japanese thought that the PC wasn't a viable platform to game. From software released dark souls and the rest is history.
Sony releasing games on PC: Encouraged by seeing Microsoft games dominating steam. Hell I think even the bluepoint acquisition was influenced by how bad the HZD port was.
The thing is that the console audience is a lot more casual so it's hard for enthusiast gamers to influence.
But you need companies to make the first move. 10 or more years ago japanese thought that the PC wasn't a viable platform to game. From software released dark souls and the rest is history.
Sony releasing games on PC: Encouraged by seeing Microsoft games dominating steam. Hell I think even the bluepoint acquisition was influenced by how bad the HZD port was.
The thing is that the console audience is a lot more casual so it's hard for enthusiast gamers to influence.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
BioShock Infinite was a beautiful game and there was so much potential to the franchise. What was stopping Irrational Games when they were at the top? Nothing, except the main designer didn’t want to make big games anymore. That wasn’t about voting with your dollar. How about the many different Star Wars games that got canned? Even when you buy the games you want, like Dead Space, it doesn’t do anything besides pay the larger company publishing it. It doesn’t keep the team together. I only think the team sticks together when you have enough people complain about how awful someone else is making a franchise. Even then there is no guarantee.
I think it’s complicated. Your next big AAA game gets a lot of attention and the reviews for it can kill everyone’s excitement for it. Yet you also have games that perform poorly that make enough to cover the production costs. You have more and more gamers with empathy towards the developers. They support a game even when it’s not a commercial hit. The main stream stuff sells regardless. You’re left with whatever’s left, which are games selling just enough to warrant another game by the same team. It’s probably a lot more structured and random than my examples. I think jumping to “vote with your wallet” is because it’s a business. It’s something for the consumer to take in as a reality check. We already hear about all the layoffs and that doesn’t sound like a good career choice to be honest. You could go help make next year’s big AAA 90+ Metacritic game and still be without a job months after it releases.
I think it’s complicated. Your next big AAA game gets a lot of attention and the reviews for it can kill everyone’s excitement for it. Yet you also have games that perform poorly that make enough to cover the production costs. You have more and more gamers with empathy towards the developers. They support a game even when it’s not a commercial hit. The main stream stuff sells regardless. You’re left with whatever’s left, which are games selling just enough to warrant another game by the same team. It’s probably a lot more structured and random than my examples. I think jumping to “vote with your wallet” is because it’s a business. It’s something for the consumer to take in as a reality check. We already hear about all the layoffs and that doesn’t sound like a good career choice to be honest. You could go help make next year’s big AAA 90+ Metacritic game and still be without a job months after it releases.
xiseerht
Member
People complain about MTs in games. But the real reason they are there is because people still buy them. I know the vocal minority will hop on a message board saying they will not buy them. Which is fine. But sadly in the real world of gamers , people have no issues buying them.
Kabelly
Member
Haven't sales plummeted and the game has left no good impact for CDPR. No accolades. Quite the opposite. After all the refunds and Sony REMOVING this AAA from their store for months. I'd say people voting with their wallets works.
With 13 million copies sold they made their money back, and profited from it immediately. No accolades, refunds and removal from one of the largest digital storefronts didn't stop them from profiting massively on that trash fire.
KungFucius
King Snowflake
It doesn't really work. Many buy a sequel because they liked the last one. If the next game after that has worse sales it is a mix of dissatisfaction with the previous game and marketing / competition for the current game.
AC is a good example of how the voice of gamers is not heard. People complained that Odyssey was too long, yet Valhalla is way fucking longer. There are enough people that keep buying the games and enough that keep buying the DLC so the message from a big chunk of the fandom is ignored. The next AC will probably take 150 hours to complete.
AC is a good example of how the voice of gamers is not heard. People complained that Odyssey was too long, yet Valhalla is way fucking longer. There are enough people that keep buying the games and enough that keep buying the DLC so the message from a big chunk of the fandom is ignored. The next AC will probably take 150 hours to complete.
Fractured_Veil
Neo Member
It can, but it depends on a lot of factors like visible loss, pushback in media, and planning/schedule sequels if the game is from a big studio. When it comes down to it games are a business and an organized boycott or major flop will get attention.
Silvawuff
Member
Gaming is such a robust hobby, it's really easy to walk away from something and invest in something else. "Voting with your wallet" is really a personal choice to put your expendable income toward the things you'll enjoy more overall. If something doesn't offer a good value or has nebulous quality, fuck it. What other people are doing with their expendable income makes no difference to me. I want to play games, not ignite social commentary.
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Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
If people enmass skip a Call of Duty Activision will realize something is wrong and will change their approach.
Same with pretty much any franchise if people vote with their wallets the dev/publisher will have to do something about it.
The reason Call of Duty et al are seemingly bulletproof is because people keep buying it thus voting positively with their wallets.
Faithless83
Banned
It has done wonders to the comics industry in the US, to the point they are being trounced by manga.
As soon as games follow suit (hopefully it won't reach that level), we'll likely have the same effect.
As soon as games follow suit (hopefully it won't reach that level), we'll likely have the same effect.
Fare thee well
Neophyte
This topic made me consider other industries
It seemed like Solo had a weak showing as a result of the abysmal awful 9th star wars film. Disney saw that money loss and changed gears. For how long and how effectively remains to be seen? I think Disney will eventually realize the diehard fans and OG enthusiasts have all dropped support. Then they will go back to milking it with the dumber fanbase.
It seemed like Solo had a weak showing as a result of the abysmal awful 9th star wars film. Disney saw that money loss and changed gears. For how long and how effectively remains to be seen? I think Disney will eventually realize the diehard fans and OG enthusiasts have all dropped support. Then they will go back to milking it with the dumber fanbase.
The Alien
Banned
Yep.....and that's the most important part (not buying the new hotness because of 'reasons').
StormCell
Member
It can work in some cases when the messaging behind the boycott is clear and loud. In the case of Xbox One, I believe the media hopped on board to make sure that message was heard. In most other cases, I don't think it's abundantly clear to publishers what their sales figures or lack thereof really mean. For instance, the game didn't sell but how many are boycotting and how many have just lost interest in the franchise? It's hard to trust anyone who says they will buy without actually seeing them purchase anyway.
Here's how I see boycott scenarios playing out.
1. Huge outrage and gamers boycott. Media gets behind this messaging and it's clear to the publisher what the problem is.
2. Huge outrage and gamers boycott. Publisher sees massive dip in sales but isn't sure if this is a decline in interest in the IP. Sees a potential trend in declining sales previous to any so-called boycott. Maybe decides to not make this franchise again for a while.
3. Huge outrage and gamers pledge to boycott. Sales are mostly unaffected. Maybe the publisher hears a ton of complaining and decides internally to really shake up the series next go around (probably for the worse!).
What can you really do? Well, twitter seems incredibly successful at making change happen, but it's hard to get anyone to become an activist for dedicated servers, so....
Mostly, I just don't buy the things I don't like. And I think that it used to bother me when publishers could look at my play behaviors and draw conclusions, but now I think it's more important than I realized. As I'm playing stuff on Game Pass, I DO want publishers to note which games I'm dumping hundreds of hours into. Make more of those!
Here's how I see boycott scenarios playing out.
1. Huge outrage and gamers boycott. Media gets behind this messaging and it's clear to the publisher what the problem is.
2. Huge outrage and gamers boycott. Publisher sees massive dip in sales but isn't sure if this is a decline in interest in the IP. Sees a potential trend in declining sales previous to any so-called boycott. Maybe decides to not make this franchise again for a while.
3. Huge outrage and gamers pledge to boycott. Sales are mostly unaffected. Maybe the publisher hears a ton of complaining and decides internally to really shake up the series next go around (probably for the worse!).
What can you really do? Well, twitter seems incredibly successful at making change happen, but it's hard to get anyone to become an activist for dedicated servers, so....
Mostly, I just don't buy the things I don't like. And I think that it used to bother me when publishers could look at my play behaviors and draw conclusions, but now I think it's more important than I realized. As I'm playing stuff on Game Pass, I DO want publishers to note which games I'm dumping hundreds of hours into. Make more of those!
michaelius
Banned
Yes it does
Look at all those publishers that left Steam only to return few months/years later
Or at Microsoft who stopped making pc games in X360 because they wanted to push console but came back when Xbox One crashed and burned
Look at all those publishers that left Steam only to return few months/years later
Or at Microsoft who stopped making pc games in X360 because they wanted to push console but came back when Xbox One crashed and burned
SF Kosmo
Banned
Voting with your money by opening your wallet works. The world is so fast now that even niche products can be successful if the audience is passionate enough and willing to drop money on it. Kickstarter is a great example of how even small amounts of people who are generous enough can make things happen.
But voting with your money by CLOSING your wallet only works if your opinions are popular. If no one wants a game or a company sees a significant decline in sales they might course correct, though more often they'll move on entirely. But if it's just a small amount of complainers it doesn't make a difference at all.
But voting with your money by CLOSING your wallet only works if your opinions are popular. If no one wants a game or a company sees a significant decline in sales they might course correct, though more often they'll move on entirely. But if it's just a small amount of complainers it doesn't make a difference at all.
yurinka
Member
It's like the elections: a single vote itself doesn't mean anything. But a huge amount of single votes means a lot. Companies look at the whole market, which is a huge amount of single 'wallet votes' and they do what they think it works, which means what people puts their money on.
So if you don't buy a certain type of game/DLC/MTX/etc won't change anything. But if most people does the same than you then in the long term companies will avoid doing that after seeing the market doesn't accepts it. Your wallet vote it's like a water drop, so the important thing it's if it's part of a tiny water wave or if it's part of a tsunami.
So if you don't buy a certain type of game/DLC/MTX/etc won't change anything. But if most people does the same than you then in the long term companies will avoid doing that after seeing the market doesn't accepts it. Your wallet vote it's like a water drop, so the important thing it's if it's part of a tiny water wave or if it's part of a tsunami.
Fbh
Member
It's like regular voting.
Will your individual vote make the difference? Not really. But it's still something you should do and encourage others to do,because once enough like minded people come together they can influence things.
Though I do agree that supporting more niche games probably makes a bigger difference than boycotting some massive 10+ million seller AAA game.
Will your individual vote make the difference? Not really. But it's still something you should do and encourage others to do,because once enough like minded people come together they can influence things.
Though I do agree that supporting more niche games probably makes a bigger difference than boycotting some massive 10+ million seller AAA game.
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
Depends. The last of Us Pt II still did well in spite of what happened.
Markio128
Member
That’s because the majority of sane folk are not bigots and are respectful of a developers vision. Or, the game was amazing.
Sander Cohen
Member
True but its legs were shortened because of the backlash and bad rep.
OrionNebula
Member
It can work, though.
Quick story : I know what some of you will say, but a friend of mine is really invested in a popular online ipad conpetitive game of sorts, by Wooga. It’s got a pretty big following, millions of players and all. Big money stuff, as can be expected
They made recent changes to the games that apparently totally screwes up the core of the game for gamers (as the game sort brings advantages if you play in teams (recommended on the competitive side, even by the devs), as you get a lot more rewards that way, the changes went 100% against that, making teams basically useless - no idea what the devs were thinking).
People complained profusely, and were met with a ‘’deal with it’’ and ‘’this is the way it is now, and we ain’t never going back to as it was’’ kind of attitude
People started leaving, but a lot stayed and started getting organized. They boycotted the game smartly, avoiding specific daily competitions (that is linked to the core of the game’s microtransaction system), and even kept track (on the official game page, no less) of the game’s/company stocks crashing down on a daily basis (thus always rallying more people to the cause every day, as more people noticed this was actually working)
Eventually, the company gave in and reverted their decision, as they were bleeding money thanks to organized protesting gamers voting smartly with their wallets
So don’t tell me this can’t work, if organized
Mindless online petitions, though… that just another story
Quick story : I know what some of you will say, but a friend of mine is really invested in a popular online ipad conpetitive game of sorts, by Wooga. It’s got a pretty big following, millions of players and all. Big money stuff, as can be expected
They made recent changes to the games that apparently totally screwes up the core of the game for gamers (as the game sort brings advantages if you play in teams (recommended on the competitive side, even by the devs), as you get a lot more rewards that way, the changes went 100% against that, making teams basically useless - no idea what the devs were thinking).
People complained profusely, and were met with a ‘’deal with it’’ and ‘’this is the way it is now, and we ain’t never going back to as it was’’ kind of attitude
People started leaving, but a lot stayed and started getting organized. They boycotted the game smartly, avoiding specific daily competitions (that is linked to the core of the game’s microtransaction system), and even kept track (on the official game page, no less) of the game’s/company stocks crashing down on a daily basis (thus always rallying more people to the cause every day, as more people noticed this was actually working)
Eventually, the company gave in and reverted their decision, as they were bleeding money thanks to organized protesting gamers voting smartly with their wallets
So don’t tell me this can’t work, if organized
Mindless online petitions, though… that just another story
AMSCD
Member
Too Human
Osaka_Boss
Member
Shadow the Hedgehog was a good game, sold well but had a very messy reception by both Fanbase, internal staff, and outlets. No one voted with their wallets and we never got a sequel
TheAssist
Member
The problem is that it is a binary system which makes it very hard to have a good discussion.
To be able to form a credible and objective opinion on a game to than have a discussion about it requires you to buy it. So now you already bought it and "voted" with your wallet, but thats not the message you wanted to send.
However, simply not buying it, just sends the signal that maybe the developer should get axed, or that the franchise should be buried for good, which also isnt what you wanted to happen.
With modern social media its of course easier to make a more nuanced statement (or not, depending on how its being used). But simply watching a very in depth analysis of a game and commenting on it, is probably more helpful for the dev, than not buying the game at all (maybe at a reduced price if its not good or has shady practices in it).
To be able to form a credible and objective opinion on a game to than have a discussion about it requires you to buy it. So now you already bought it and "voted" with your wallet, but thats not the message you wanted to send.
However, simply not buying it, just sends the signal that maybe the developer should get axed, or that the franchise should be buried for good, which also isnt what you wanted to happen.
With modern social media its of course easier to make a more nuanced statement (or not, depending on how its being used). But simply watching a very in depth analysis of a game and commenting on it, is probably more helpful for the dev, than not buying the game at all (maybe at a reduced price if its not good or has shady practices in it).
S
SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
To be fair though, Black Ops had dedicated severs.
That is because despite the online mob there are still many people who love the game. I has one of the highest completion rates of any single player game and considering it's length that is big accomplishment. This is a case where the term silent majority applies.
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