Support NeoGAF

[James Sawyer Ford]

Commentary timestamped. Hard to disagree with his takes. The level of vitriol surrounding both ND and Druckmann is completely unjustified and they seem to be a scapegoat, with tribal mentality across a toxic social media environment driving the discourse.

Druckmann and ND are credited with an absolutely stellar track record and have not missed, yet segments of the community seem intent on lighting them on fire across the internet. It's fine to not resonate with their decisions as a studio, but segments of the community have taken it way too far to the point where it clouds out more reasonable discussion. What happened with TLOU2 leaks is simply insanity to me. It doesn't happen with any other game.

 

[Gaiff]

It's the market readjusting itself. We'll see how much Druckmann's decision to go full steam ahead with "modern audiences" pays off in the long run.

 

[PauloRoberto]

Just a question: did we have a game story leak like what happened with TLOU 2? I mean, for a game that is so dependant of story, this leak was huge and im sure it impacted on the initial sales numbers.

 

[user friendly]

With the way their games actually play, can't agree more. Yes, 2 had some dialog and content that was a bit off the path but the game is magical.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

It's the market readjusting itself. We'll see how much Druckmann's decision to go full steam ahead with "modern audiences" pays off in the long run.

There we go with "modern audiences" when all we know is the game features a female lead with a shaved head.

If the game is quality - which I expect it will be - the arguments about some vocal minority yelling at the cloud because the game isn't 100% one demographic go completely out the window. It'll do well.

 

[rkofan87]

Just a question: did we have a game story leak like what happened with TLOU 2? I mean, for a game that is so dependant of story, this leak was huge and im sure it impacted on the initial sales numbers.

ding ding

 

[Magic Carpet]

I'm hoping to be surprised and Intergalactic ends up being like the anime The Dirty Pair.

 

[semiconscious]

I appreciate the fact that druckmann delivers, critically & sales-wise. i just personally really disliked uncharted 4 & last of us 2. & that's after really enjoying everything that came before. so, no derangement, just personal taste...

 

[Sintoid]

It's the market readjusting itself. We'll see how much Druckmann's decision to go full steam ahead with "modern audiences" pays off in the long run.

A shaved head is "modern audience"? Then I'm a 52yo kid

 

[Markio128]

It’s like there are a bunch of cults taking over social media, or is it a bunch of something else? I don’t think most of them are even gamers.

 

[Gaiff]

There we go with "modern audiences" when all we know is the game features a female lead with a shaved head.

Of course, there we go. ND and Druckmann are rather transparent. They get no benefit of the doubt from anyone. To say that this character design wasn't deliberate is being foolish. That said, it's a creative endeavor and they're free to create whatever the hell they want, but the market will also respond accordingly.

Once again, pretending that those characters they've been giving us the past few years aren't the result of modern trends is taking us for fools.

A shaved head is "modern audience"? Then I'm a 52yo kid

Here we go again with people playing dumb lmao.

 

[LectureMaster]

Lol, Naughty Dog and Druckmann aren't something significant enough to cause "derangement syndrome".

They are just delivering an entertainment product with their visions. People of course are entitled to comment on how the feel about it.

Like it or not, people just need to vote with their wallet. There aren't that much to dissect.

 

[diffusionx]

There has been a massive disconnect between Moriarty and his audience for years on this. On a live show he did a while back he was totally baffled and annoyed at how low his audience placed TLOU2 in their best PS4 game list. So, on some level, he doesn't understand, he doesn't agree, and he likes the games from this guy. Which is fine, but it doesn't make his take any more or less valid than someone else's.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I appreciate the fact that druckmann delivers, critically & sales-wise. i just personally really disliked uncharted 4 & last of us 2. & that's after really enjoying everything that came before. so, no derangement, just personal taste...

That's your own personal opinion and nothing wrong with it. You're not the people Colin is talking about that seem particularly deranged, unless you personally hope the game flops merely because the lead happens to look a certain way before judging the game on its own merits.

Honestly I am not the biggest fan of TLOU2, not from a narrative perspective, but from a game structure perspective. It just doesn't make sense to lose all of your progression for one character and have to re-do it all with another. But I did not necessarily disagree with the choices they made. The gameplay, however, is amazing, and the locations are all superb. It just felt a little to disjointed, structure wise.

Uncharted 4 to me is the second best Uncharted game in the series next to Uncharted 2. Amazing set pieces, and I loved the theme/story. But it does have a slightly darker tone and focused more on the character relationships (which I enjoyed - I thought it elevated the narrative quality of the series).

 

[Bernardougf]

 

[FunkMiller]

A shaved head is "modern audience"? Then I'm a 52yo kid

Jordan is absolutely coded to be a protagonist meant to appeal to certain people, and most definitely not to others. It’s not just her having a bald head. In fact, that rather ignores the actual issue people have.

She’s another dull, tired and played out girl boss trope. That’s the problem.

Naughty Dog are smart. They would have known how that kind of character would go down with the majority of their audience in 2024. Let’s see if that works out okay for them or not.

 

[Topher]

Agree with his take that initial reaction doesn't really mean much. There are a segment of people who were never going to buy another Naughty Dog game regardless. Nothing wrong with that. Folks can vote with their wallet. I still maintain they are very vocal minority though. At the same time, I do get some of the takes about pushing agendas in games and I too am tired of it. But I also maintain that if the game is truly kick ass then none of this early negativity will matter.

 

[PauloRoberto]

There we go with "modern audiences" when all we know is the game features a female lead with a shaved head.

If the game is quality - which I expect it will be - the arguments about some vocal minority yelling at the cloud because the game isn't 100% one demographic go completely out the window. It'll do well.

I believe the problem is not having a bald woman. The problem is having a badass bald woman that is badass just becuase she is a bald woman, which is, per se... stupid. It's like Nadine from U4 (not a coincidence). I hated her on U4 because i know for a fact that, every time she is on screen, you know she WILL win is asinine. (truth be told, Uncharted Lost legacy was WAY better in this aspect).

 

[The_Observer]

A shaved head is "modern audience"? Then I'm a 52yo kid

Don’t pretend you don’t understand. The shitty marvel-type writing and acting in addition to the constant agenda pushing coming from these companies it’s clear where this is going.

 

[clarky]

I appreciate the fact that druckmann delivers, critically & sales-wise. i just personally really disliked uncharted 4 & last of us 2. & that's after really enjoying everything that came before. so, no derangement, just personal taste...

This.

I found U4 just flat out boring and stuck up its own arse and TLOU 2 was a worse experience than TLOU. His TV show was nowhere near as good as some make out either.

Dude has it all to prove imo.

 

[Sintoid]

Here we go again with people playing dumb lmao.

No evidence about the contrary, keep laughing

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Attempting to say that this character design wasn't deliberate is being foolish. That said, it's a creative endeavor and they're free to create whatever the hell they want, but the market will also respond accordingly.

Once again, pretending that those characters they've been giving us the past few years aren't the result of modern trends is taking us for fools.

So if this is your point of view, the question is - what's bad about it?

Should a bounty hunter chick not have a shaved head and want to look hot instead? Who is she trying to impress in this environment? How does that make sense? It's fine if that's the game you're going for, but ND titles are trying to be a bit more mature themed than something like Stellar Blade.

 

[Horseganador]

There is a lot of desire for ND and Druckmann to fail after so many exclusive +90 goty quality games, it is insane the fuss that is made every time they show something.

 

[Guerilla Munch]

There we go with "modern audiences" when all we know is the game features a female lead with a shaved head.

If the game is quality - which I expect it will be - the arguments about some vocal minority yelling at the cloud because the game isn't 100% one demographic go completely out the window. It'll do well.

wow it's crazy how this "vocal minority" is causing so many big budget games to wildly underperform lately

 

[PeteBull]

Colin has full right to his own preferences, same way we do too, and no matter what any celeb/journo/dev gonna say, our preferences wont change

 

[LectureMaster]

Agree with his take that initial reaction doesn't really mean much. There are a segment of people who were never going to buy another Naughty Dog game regardless. Nothing wrong with that. Folks can vote with their wallet. I still maintain they are very vocal minority though. At the same time, I do get some of the takes about pushing agendas in games and I too am tired of it. But I maintain that if the game is truly kick ass then none of this early negativity will matter.

My man speaks truth, best recent example is Silent Hill 2 remake.

 

[diffusionx]

So if this is your point of view, the question is - what's bad about it?

Should a bounty hunter chick not have a shaved head and want to look hot instead? Who is she trying to impress in this environment? How does that make sense? It's fine if that's the game you're going for, but ND titles are trying to be a bit more mature themed than something like Stellar Blade.

People don't want to play as this fucking character dude, just deal with it. It's not our problem. It's Naughty Dog's problem. How should the character look - like one people want to play as. We're not the ones designing the game.

Telling people they're wrong for not wanting to play as this character is straight up retarded. I'm not the one trying to feed a family on revenue from this game like Sony and Naughty Dog will be.

 

[FeralEcho]

"Leave Naughty Dog Alone!!!"

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

wow it's crazy how this "vocal minority" is causing so many big budget games to wildly underperform lately

Those games that flopped did so because they are not good games at their core.

 

[Physiognomonics]

A shaved head is "modern audience"? Then I'm a 52yo kid

No. Modern audience is someone looking neither like a man nor like a woman. But Druckmann does that just to subvert expectations... again.

 

[Gaiff]

So if this is your point of view, the question is - what's bad about it?

Nothing is inherently "bad" about this decision. It's their choice and the player base will respond accordingly. I hate the narrative-heavy style of Ragnarok, but some people love it. It isn't good or bad. It's just something I dislike. We'll see how ND's customers respond to this.

Should a bounty hunter chick not have a shaved head and want to look hot instead? Who is she trying to impress in this environment? How does that make sense? It's fine if that's the game you're going for, but ND titles are trying to be a bit more mature themed than something like Stellar Blade.

Yes, liking hot chicks is totally immature.

 

[Sintoid]

Jordan is absolutely coded to be a protagonist meant to appeal to certain people, and most definitely not to others. It’s not just her having a bald head. In fact, that rather ignores the actual issue people have.

She’s another dull, tired and played out girl boss trope. That’s the problem.

Naughty Dog are smart. They would have known how that kind of character would go down with the majority of their audience in 2024. Let’s see if that works out okay for them or not.

I'm against wokeism but I can't see that code you are pointing at. Maybe being under DEI fire for too much time (that really happened actually) made many people too much sensitive about some character design aspects

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

People don't want to play as this fucking character dude, just deal with it. It's not our problem. It's Naughty Dog's problem. How should the character look - like one people want to play as. We're not the ones designing the game.

Telling people they're wrong for not wanting to play as this character is straight up retarded. I'm not the one trying to feed a family on revenue from this game like Sony and Naughty Dog will be.

There's nothing for me to deal with.

Some people don't want to play as some Anime character in metaphor - they don't need to buy the game. It's not for them. I don't see them spamming up the comments section, spamming the dislike button on everything. I don't see people going on crusades to try and spoil Metaphor because they don't like Anime characters.

 

[Paasei]

Everytime I see that name I have to instantly think of this fucker:

 

[PeteBull]

Jordan is absolutely coded to be a protagonist meant to appeal to certain people, and most definitely not to others. It’s not just her having a bald head. In fact, that rather ignores the actual issue people have.

She’s another dull, tired and played out girl boss trope. That’s the problem.

Naughty Dog are smart. They would have known how that kind of character would go down with the majority of their audience in 2024. Let’s see if that works out okay for them or not.

Yups, make it black or asian guy with bald head and u will get 0 backlash/pushback, since that is what we, straight guys, like, to play either as masculine male, or feminine female (personal preference for me is to play as male tho, but i fully understand if some1 has different one ofc ;p)

 

[clarky]

Those games that flopped did so because they are not good games at their core.

Good point. If this game turns out awesome then it has nothing to worry about. But anything less than must play and its fucked, just like DA.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Good point. If this game turns out awesome then it has nothing to worry about. But anything less than must play and its fucked, just like DA.

Yep. I mean that's why TLOU2 still sold well at the end of the day. It was a GOTY quality title, regardless of whether it resonated with you or not the quality is undeniable.

Same will be true here. Not to say ND could mess it up - they can - but history is on their side. I have not played a bad naughty dog game ever.

 

[GermanZepp]

I despise druckman cause he turned ND games the way don't like, boring and pretentious. I mean, is the most important studio of playstation. Isn't that enough ?

 

[Vick]

I'm against wokeism but I can't see that code you are pointing at. Maybe being under DEI fire for too much time (that really happened actually) made many people too much sensitive about some character design aspects

Or maybe something happened to this studio's protagonists since 2017, and people are tired of it..

Spoiler

Also, imagine saying vitriol against a shameless and fierce provocateur like Druckmann is "unjustified".

It's like people forgot what he said towards those "haters" who rejected his Part II, after he himself verbatim claimed the game was going to be hated by half the audience by design.
You reap what you fucking sow.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

The level of vitriol surrounding both ND and Druckmann is completely unjustified and they seem to be a scapegoat, with tribal mentality across a toxic social media environment driving the discourse

Justified or not, it is the reality and it is relentless

the ongoing environment has created a lot of resentment. the so called "adults in the room" (gaming media) dropped the ball. 80% of this shithole is on them.

 

[Sintoid]

No. Modern audience is someone looking neither like a man nor like a woman. But Druckmann does that just to subvert expectations... again.

Trying to paint a character wich have no time for being feminine cause she have more important things to do, maybe because she had a though life where being cute is not so important, I think that's another way to read her look

That's not modernity, we had ton of examples of this kind of characters in many media

 

[diffusionx]

There's nothing for me to deal with.

Some people don't want to play as some Anime character in metaphor - they don't need to buy the game. It's not for them. I don't see them spamming up the comments section, spamming the dislike button on everything. I don't see people going on crusades to try and spoil Metaphor because they don't like Anime characters.

So now the next step for you is to try to figure out what inspires so much disgust about this character and this game, and the fact that this disgust is real no matter how many people online call anyone who feels that way a chud or incel.

It's not hard to figure out - it's been explained a gazillion times. You're just choosing to play dumb or rehash these old arguments for some reason.

Yep. I mean that's why TLOU2 still sold well at the end of the day. It was a GOTY quality title, regardless of whether it resonated with you or not the quality is undeniable.

Same will be true here. Not to say ND could mess it up - they can - but history is on their side. I have not played a bad naughty dog game ever.

Like Colin said in your timestapped section, TLOU2 sales were not as good as they probably should have been.

 

[KimDongHwan]

There is a reason people are more emotional with ND. They were for many years the hopes&dreams of PlayStation when they almost single-handedly saved the PS3 with Uncharted 2. Having all that ruined because for some reason Druckmann rose to power internally and decided that ND is now a political-driven company, of course would make the fans upset when probably we just wanted a very good game, with high end graphics, sweet gameplay and no "message".

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Or maybe something happened to this studio's protagonists since 2017, and people are tired of it..

Spoiler

Also, imagine saying vitriol against a shameless and fierce provocateur like Druckmann is "unjustified".

It's like people forgot what he said towards those "haters" who rejected his Part II, after he himself verbatim claimed the game was going to be hated by half the audience by design.
You reap what you fucking sow.

They stopped making cartoon characters?

This chart is not proving your point. The designs since UC4 and onward are entirely consistent, thematically with eachother.

 

[tmlDan]

It's the market readjusting itself. We'll see how much Druckmann's decision to go full steam ahead with "modern audiences" pays off in the long run.

He may not even be going that direction, we'll all play the game and she'll be some badass hetero babe with a hot nude scene where her hair is back and guys will be like shit, we're stupid.

But we'll see.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I don't know if this will sell well or not, but currently my expectations are for this to sell below TLoU2, will still depend on other things.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

There is a reason people are more emotional with ND. They were for many years the hopes&dreams of PlayStation when they almost single-handedly saved the PS3 with Uncharted 2. Having all that ruined because for some reason Druckmann rose to power internally and decided that ND is now a political-driven company, of course would make the fans upset when probably we just wanted a very good game, with high end graphics, sweet gameplay and no "message".

Ruined = making multiple GOTY titles since UC2 and the best show on TV?

Ok. That's an interesting perspective of ruin.

 

[Sintoid]

Or maybe something happened to this studio's protagonists since 2017, and people are tired of it..

Spoiler

Also, imagine saying vitriol against a shameless and fierce provocateur like Druckmann is "unjustified".

It's like people forgot what he said towards those "haters" who rejected his Part II, after he himself verbatim claimed the game was going to be hated by half the audience by design.
You reap what you fucking sow.

Three characters from a single game (TLOU PT2) and Chloe "You're gonna miss this ass" Frazer?

Ok, I understand

 

[Gaiff]

she'll be some badass hetero babe with a hot nude scene where her hair is back and guys will be like shit, we're stupid.

 

[Vick]

There is a reason people are more emotional with ND. They were for many years the hopes&dreams of PlayStation when they almost single-handedly saved the PS3 with Uncharted 2. Having all that ruined because for some reason Druckmann rose to power internally and decided that ND is now a political-driven company, of course would make the fans upset when probably we just wanted a very good game, with high end graphics, sweet gameplay and no "message".

This.

I was the biggest ND fan, so it is indeed almost personal as this motherfucker killed the studio entirely for me and ruined quite a bit of the hobby in the process.

They stopped making cartoon characters?

You mean they started making cartoon, propaganda characters under the disguise of "maturity"..
Another paradox, as that ridiculous nonsense is mostly appreciated by immature, deranged individuals with flawed viewpoints resulted from fresh, immature ideologies being forced upon them.

Three characters from a single game (TLOU PT2) and Chloe "You're gonna miss this ass" Frazer?

Ok, I understand

Yeah.. and you dismissed the accusation of playing dumb.