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[JeremyEtcetera]

People also need to take into account that the appearence of a character is usually associated with his personality and his role in the story.

That's why Guts from Berserk looks brute and intimidating, and why Griffith looks elegant and angelic.
Also, for the same reason Guts wears black and Griffith white (which is usually associated with something good or pure, and in this case, in a deceiving way)

Why artists do that? Because men searches for meaning.

When men creates something, he attributes a meaning to it.
And when he does that, he also expects other men to have a similar interpretation of his work. To achieve this masterfully, the creator has to understand human psychology, society, culture and how humans process information using their senses.
The creator then guides the observer (sometimes also deceptively) in order to help him to come to a specific interpretation, that is, a meaning.

Simply replicating reality for the sake of it is boring and uninteresting.
Some people do it in order to look "daring" and "ambitious", but it just feels edgy and/or pretentious most of the time.

Taking the Berserk example, imagine doing it wrong.
I'll make Guts fat and make him use a normal sword and Griffith bald and muscular. Would people interpret it the same way? Would it improve the story? Would it make it more interesting?

Artists should have the freedom to do what they want without having to be shamed and forced to follow a stupid agenda of "deobjectify women", "toxic masculinity", "unrealistic expectations" or whatever crap SJWs seem to want to push forward.

If an artist wants to make ugly characters, fine.
If an artists wants to make beautiful characters, fine.
And that's it.

Some BASED user comments:

You must also like the duality of Abby and Ellie then, right?

 

[Derift]

Well when your only other choices are a blue hedgehog and a yellow ball, a fat plumber isn't such a bad power-fantasy, is it?

Mario games still sell well today... clearly no one cares about how he looks and rightly so why should anyone care...

 

[MrPotato]

The first gif I posted to match yours is at an even level though, camera-wise. You're not playing my game because you're not understanding the game itself.

Again, go do some research on camera angles, or I don't know, go facetime someone/anyone like @Three said.

 

[Faithless83]

I don't care about her looks in-game but looks off from the original actor, so maybe the ones behind modeling should either do a better job or keep their agenda out if there is any.

She doesn't look ugly at all, but inaccurate enough as well and the real model is prettier.

Me either, I'm just not supporting this kind of BS. I didn't in Returnal and I'll gladly do it again.
And hey, Returnal is enterily my jam. I love Housemarque's games .
Not all of them but, Resogun, Nex Machina and Super Stardust were amazing.
They lost the sale and I double dipped Nex Machina at launch, just to help them out.

What pisses me off is people pretending it's not happening right in front of their eyes.

I can't buy all japanese games I want at launch, now western devs are helping me out.

The first gif I posted to match yours is at an even level though, camera-wise. You're not playing my game because you're not understanding the game itself.

Again, go do some research on camera angles, or I don't know, go facetime someone/anyone like @Three said.

People who do mocap don't stand there, take a shot with their mouths closed and call it a day, right?
To change the bone structure at that level (pulling it to the front) also changes how their mouth opens.
Hence my shot with both having their mouths opened. Forget the lightning for just a second and see the positioning of the lips and teeth on the actress vs the render. Tell me how this is lightning and angle.

 

[Lethal01]

And here I thought we could use this shot as an example:

That however is not the case as I'm pointing out time and time again.

 

[Dacon]

its a valid point... why is it a problem if we play as a "unattractive" woman (not that i find her unattractive) but no one bats an eyelid that we have been playing as a number of fugly men for years (not that i cared anyway) .... its honestly a shame that this is what gaming has come to people are making up conspiracy theories about a so called agenda... its pathetic... just play the damn game

Probably because almost no one thinks Mario is fucking ugly.

I can't think of a male protagonist who is ugly to me, but then again I don't find men attractive so their appearance usually is inoffensive unless theyre really hideous like some of the dudes in the Witcher.

Like, Wario is ugly. Mario is just Mario.

 

[TheGrat1]

Surprised no one brought up Quiet from MGS 5 so far.

You can go back even further. MGS4:

Kurt Angle. Worst one by far.

He looks like a Toy Story character!

 

[Faithless83]

And even on this shot you can see her upper teeth (is that how we would call it? My english is far from great).

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

This gif perfectly encapsulates my disbelief at your posts.

 

[Excess]

Mario games still sell well today... clearly no one cares about how he looks and rightly so why should anyone care...

That's because Nintendo games are for children.

I play more mature games, and I can't really think of a power-fantasy I'm never experiencing: Rome Total War, Assassin's Creed, DOOM, Conan, GTA, Mortal Kombat, Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, Witcher, Call of Duty.

Don't even get me started on God of War. That was by-far the biggest example of that for me.

 

[Lethal01]

And even on this shot you can see her upper teeth (is that how we would call it? My english is far from great).

I have no Idea what you're trying to say. what about her teeth?

Point is their faces are identical. The actress probably looks more different after 4 years than aloy does.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

And even on this shot you can see her upper teeth (is that how we would call it? My english is far from great).

The backtracking begins.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

I can't think of a male protagonist who is ugly to me, but then again I don't find men attractive so their appearance usually is inoffensive unless theyre really hideous like some of the dudes in the Witcher.

Don't worry, I got you Dacon:

 

[Faithless83]

This gif perfectly encapsulates my disbelief at your posts.

I have no Idea what you're trying to say. what about her teeth?

Point is their faces are identical. The actress probably looks more different after 4 years than aloy does.

They are not and I'm pointing out using bone structure, because that can't be affected by lightning and camera angles last I checked. So I highlighted how her half opened mouth expression is different between actress and render, because changing the position of the chin, will also make your lower teeth show up more. Try that in a mirror and you'll understand.

The backtracking begins.

People who do mocap don't stand there, take a shot with their mouths closed and call it a day, right?
To change the bone structure at that level (pulling it to the front) also changes how their mouth opens.
Hence my shot with both having their mouths opened. Forget the lightning for just a second and see the positioning of the lips and teeth on the actress vs the render. Tell me how this is lightning and angle.

Do not backtrack and reply to the question please?

 

[Lethal01]

They are not and I'm pointing out using bone structure, because that can't be affected by lightning and camera angles last I checked. So I highlighted how her half opened mouth expression is different between actress and render, because changing the position of the chin, will also make your lower teeth show up more. Try that in a mirror and you'll understand.

I understand that the bone structure of aloy and the actress is identical.

If you are seeing more or less teeth it's due to her clenching her teeth in her photo while in the render she's in the middle of talking with her mouth open

 

[Dacon]

Don't worry, I got you Dacon:

Oh yeah that bitch was ugly, def preferred the pretty boy to him. Tbh I like playing as the pretty boys more, as cool as the buff rugged dudes are.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

People who do mocap don't stand there, take a shot with their mouths closed and call it a day, right?
To change the bone structure at that level (pulling it to the front) also changes how their mouth opens.
Hence my shot with both having their mouths opened. Forget the lightning for just a second and see the positioning of the lips and teeth on the actress vs the render. Tell me how this is lightning and angle.

Do not backtrack and reply to the question please?

Here

Same tooth position and clenching like Lethal01 has said, followed by dialogue showing her teeth. Those same front two teeth are showing in the same position. Do I have to find and make gifs of the entire state of play? Did you actually watch the state of play or did you just see a couple images and an article and made an argument based from it?

This feels as frustrating as talking to a flat-earther. Not insulting you, just saying they are equally as stubborn to talk to when presented with evidence.

 

[LaughingStock]

Female characters must be ugly. You don't want to please or your male audience. Nudity must be offensive and cause nothing but disgust. E.G.: Abby sex scene.

By the way, a modder tried to fix Alloy's face on the PC version.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

Female characters must be ugly. You don't want to please or your male audience. Nudity must be offensive and cause nothing but disgust. E.G.: Abby sex scene.

 

[Rickyiez]

Back to the topic , Courtney Hope looks amazing in every camera angle or lighting condition , makeup or no makeup . OP is definitely wrong .

It shows that some developers are just lacking expertise in correctly translating the face design into their game , or it's possibly intentional. On the other hand we have Kojima's characters that looks true to their actual actor representation

 

[Faithless83]

I understand that the bone structure of aloy and the actress is identical.

If you are seeing more or less teeth it's due to her clenching her teeth in her photo while in the render she's in the middle of talking with her mouth open

Here

Same tooth position and clenching like Lethal01 has said, followed by dialogue showing her teeth. Those same front two teeth are showing in the same position. Do I have to find and make gifs of the entire state of play? Did you actually watch the state of play or did you just see a couple images and an article and made an argument based from it?

This feels as frustrating as talking to a flat-earther. Not insulting you, just saying they are equally as stubborn to talk to when presented with evidence.

No offense taken and believe me, it's no more frustrating than what's going on with western gaming and gaming journalism, if we can call it journalism at this point.

Timestamped 1:02


Timestamped 8:48


See again how the actress has her upper teeth showing when she talks throughout the video (while serious or smiling)? It's different in the rendering because of the jaw difference that "lighning causes".

 

[harmny]

guerrilla is a talented studio. either they are going to fix it (and this was work in progress) or they are happy with aloy's face being the way it is which is fine too. in any case i'm sure their own artists are the first ones that notice whatever thing you can notice.

it's not the angle. it's not the lens. it's not the lighting. aloy's model is just off if you compare it to hannah. especially when she is moving her face which is the most difficult thing to get right (and even worse if the person is just the model and someone else is doing the facial capture)
it's just not her. seeing people justfiying guerrilla games by writing lengthy (and wrong) posts about technical stuff is just pathetic. maybe hannah was just the base and they don't really care about copying her 1:1 anymore.

death stranding has the most unflattering and weird angles (and lighting) ever and sam is always norman reedus. same engine btw. there is just no question about it. so if you have a lot of people thinking she doesn't look like the real life model then something is wrong. occam's razor

the difference is. death stranding is actually banking on the fact that sam is norman reedus. it's his performance capture and his voice too. they were marketing that everywhere. same thing with mads or keanu in cyberpunk. so no wonder it looks better.

in horizon on the other hand it doesn't really matter. aloy is just aloy. they just hired hannah to use her face and that's it. same way ND hired someone to be abby's face or dina. so if it is 1:1 or if she barely looks like her doesn't really matter.

 

[Dacon]

Back to the topic , Courtney Hope looks amazing in every camera angle or lighting condition , makeup or no makeup . OP is definitely wrong .

It shows that some developers are just lacking expertise in correctly translating the face design into their game , or it's possibly intentional. On the other hand we have Kojima's characters that looks true to their actual actor representation

Man I was really annoyed by how weird Hope looked in Control. Didn't think it was intentional though, and just learned to ignore her face. I figure I'd do the same if I was at all interested in Returnal.

 

[Hayabusabruh]

Horizon. Pretty close.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

No offense taken and believe me, it's no more frustrating than what's going on with western gaming and gaming journalism, if we can call it journalism at this point.

Timestamped 1:02


Timestamped 8:48


See again how the actress has her upper teeth showing when she talks throughout the video (while serious or smiling)? It's different in the rendering because of the jaw difference that "lighning causes".

Remember, they have to match the voice actress's way of speaking. This isn't a Troy Baker situation. One person is scanned, another speaks. Her upper teeth are her upper teeth. How they're being used will obviously be different based on the voice actor. Hopefully you can understand that and now we can move on to a different orifice, like the tongue or nostril or something.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[Tomeru]

Omg what?!

 

[AphexTwunt]

I feel attacked

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

It's one thing to have an idea, another to execute it masterfully.

As long as it was done for the sake of art, it goes along with your post and your way of thinking about it. In your eyes they could have failed, but at least they tried, right?

 

[Faithless83]

Remember, they have to match the voice actress's way of speaking. This isn't a Troy Baker situation. One person is scanned, another speaks. Her upper teeth are her upper teeth. How they're being used will obviously be different based on the voice actor. Hopefully you can understand that and now we can move on to a different orifice, like the tongue or nostril or something.

And here we go, "the mocap voice changes the mocap RIG".
No it doesn't.

It gets each dot on the persons face (the facerig) to match the muscle in the face on the render, that's it. No bone structure involved in the process at all.

But anyway, made you admit that it's not the same render as the actress to the point of blaming that on the voice actress.

And the following shows that this is BS, just look at how she speaks:


It was fun, care to admit that we have an unnecessary change here? And maybe, juuuuuuust maybe there is an agenda involved?

Just so you were such a good sport trying to teach me the camera stuff, I won't demand that you admit the last part. Just coming up with the "it's the voice actress fault" was enough.

See Lethal01 just so I don't have to repeat myself.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

Back to the topic , Courtney Hope looks amazing in every camera angle or lighting condition , makeup or no makeup . OP is definitely wrong .

It shows that some developers are just lacking expertise in correctly translating the face design into their game , or it's possibly intentional. On the other hand we have Kojima's characters that looks true to their actual actor representation

Kojima understands camerawork. He has understood it since Snatcher and Policenauts. He understands what makes a flattering angle and an unflattering angle. He understands what makes flattering lighting and what doesn't. And he knows when to use those unflattering angles for comedic relief. Like I've stated before in this thread, a lot of other video game developers and leads don't get it because their intent with camerawork is entirely different.

 

[harmny]

Kojima understands camerawork. He has understood it since Snatcher and Policenauts. He understands what makes a flattering angle and an unflattering angle. He understands what makes flattering lighting and what doesn't. And he knows when to use those unflattering angles for comedic relief. Like I've stated before in this thread, a lot of other video game developers and leads don't get it because their intent with camerawork is entirely different.

It has nothing to do with the camera just stop it. I really find this whole denial funny

 

[Lethal01]

And here we go, "the mocap voice changes the mocap RIG".
No it doesn't.

It gets each dot on the persons face (the facerig) to match the muscle in the face on the render, that's it. No bone structure involved in the process at all.

But anyway, made you admit that it's not the same render as the actress to the point of blaming that on the voice actress.

And the following shows that this is BS, just look at how she speaks:


It was fun, care to admit that we have an unnecessary change here? And maybe, juuuuuuust maybe there is an agenda involved?

Just so you were such a good sport trying to teach me the camera stuff, I won't demand that you admit the last part. Just coming up with the "it's the voice actress fault" was enough.

See Lethal01 just so I don't have to repeat myself.

Don't know what point you think you're making.

Their face structure is the same, any difference you think you are seeing is down to te fact that these screenshots are not of her doing the exact same expression, unless you think one photo smiling while the other frowns is evidence of it being a different person.

They are the same person. Different hair, different makeup, different expression, same bones.

 

[jonnyp]

200mm is nice.

That's what she said

 

[IntentionalPun]

This forum continues to amaze me. Why in the world do y’all care so much? Aren’t your anime pillows still pretty?

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

And here we go, "the mocap voice changes the mocap RIG".
No it doesn't.

Let's go through your points one by one.

It gets each dot on the persons face (the facerig) to match the muscle in the face on the render, that's it. No bone structure involved in the process at all.

Correct, most of the time.

But anyway, made you admit that it's not the same render as the actress to the point of blaming that on the voice actress.

Not what I said. The render is the face actress. The animation is used to match the voice actress. They don't bring the face actress back in to match the facial movements of the voice actress. That wouldn't make any sense at all.

And the following shows that this is BS, just look at how she speaks:

You've linked the wrong timestamp. You can't compare a normal speaking voice, speaking cadence and emotion during an interview to acting. Key word, acting. Skip to 2:45 in your video and look at how Aloy is speaking. Also look up other videos of the voice actress doing mocap or in booths please. Research is the key, and you're doing good so far, but you're doing that thing that flat earthers do where they just look up evidence to support their point and don't look beyond that to make sure their facts add up.

It was fun, care to admit that we have an unnecessary change here? And maybe, juuuuuuust maybe there is an agenda involved?

Just so you were such a good sport trying to teach me the camera stuff, I won't demand that you admit the last part. Just coming up with the "it's the voice actress fault" was enough.

See Lethal01 just so I don't have to repeat myself.

This is a failed mic drop man.

Again, I didn't say 'it's the voice actress's fault', I said they had to model around her acting, which is true.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[Rickyiez]

Kojima understands camerawork. He has understood it since Snatcher and Policenauts. He understands what makes a flattering angle and an unflattering angle. He understands what makes flattering lighting and what doesn't. And he knows when to use those unflattering angles for comedic relief. Like I've stated before in this thread, a lot of other video game developers and leads don't get it because their intent with camerawork is entirely different.

Sam still looks like Sam or Norman Reedus no matter the camera angle . The face modelling is outright superior or Kojima don't tamper with the face for certain "intentions" , that is all .

 

[Dream-Knife]

Counter point: quiet and big momma(death stranding) look better than their actual models.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

It has nothing to do with the camera just stop it. I really find this whole denial funny

What denial? Proof of the contrary has been shown in the thread. You have another dude in here backtracking from her chin, to her ears, and now to her teeth. You going to jump off that cliff with him?

 

[hemo memo]

Final fantasy faces look more natural to you? LMAOOOOOOO. All those faces are plastic surgery faces.

Fantasy huh?

Real face >> after plastic surgery

Regarding that. Don’t people like this loss the connection to their face? It is like looking at the face of another person.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

Sam still looks like Sam or Norman Reedus no matter the camera angle . The face modelling is outright superior or Kojima don't tamper with the face for certain "intentions" , that is all .

Lighting.

And? They're not immune to criticism because they've *tried*.

Of course not, but them trying is the point of your original post.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Everyone has been super hyped and praising the ultra fast speed of the PS5 SSD and look what you all did.......you advanced Aloy's face to what it is now. smh. lmao.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

I agree with @Bo_Hazem I like my girls meaty (not obese though. People seems to think they're the same thing now)
My point is why change it? There is no need to, so much so, that they didn't change it on the male actor.

I believe the reason for that is because the for the male, the face model and voice actor are the same person.

Insomniac explained that they had to change the Peter Parker face model to a completely different guy whose face structure is more similar to the voice actor because they were having mocap issues. The original Peter Parker in game model barely looks like the actor he was modeled after on btw. Another example is Leon from RE2:R - the in game model resembles the face model, but you can tell there were changes made.

 

[sinnergy]

Everyone has been super hyped and praising the ultra fast speed of the PS5 SSD and look what you all did.......you advanced Aloy's face to what it is now. smh. lmao.

The Ssd is so advanced it will also come up with the whole game .. make models , artistic choices …

 

[Low Moral Fibre]

It only bothers me when I know what the face model looks like (and I don't just mean a picture but because I've seen them on TV) otherwise I couldn't care less.

I'm playing ME2 now and I know it's an older game but Miranda Lawson looks terrifying compared to the voice actor. They haven't tried to make the character look worse but it looks different enough that it's really off-putting.

 

[sn0man]

why should it be about "fucking" them exactly!? Just because you want to see good looking character in media doesn't mean you want to "fuck" them.

Found you feel the same way if they were a gender you weren’t into? If the standard doesn’t hold it might just be a subconscious preference you aren’t aware of.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[Danjin44]

Found you feel the same way if they were a gender you weren’t into? If the standard doesn’t hold it might just be a subconscious preference you aren’t aware of.

Actually I want to attractive characters both male and female in my games, for me gender doesn’t matter. I just like good looking characters designs.

 

[sn0man]

Actually I want to attractive characters both male and female in my games, for me gender doesn’t matter. I just like good looking characters designs.

Fair enough. For me characters can he ugly or pretty. I like style and unique more than “attractive” as in sexy. Additionally graphically impressive is also appreciated.