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Gaf, why is Dark Souls 2 so bad?

It's the best Dark Souls, so maybe you don't like Dark Souls games. Bloodborne is pretty different.
I love dark souls 2 but there are significant problems with it. People keep vaguely complaining about the controls but specifically it's the weird, restrictive 8 way directional movement that cause this. Seriously, try it for yourself the movement is digital and you can only move your character and attack in 8 directions. This isn't present in any other game. Combine that with the fact that enemies have that weird sort of lock on where even if their attacks miss they sort of 'warp' on target and hit you. It's kind of balls. Demons and dark 1 don't have these problems. I still think dark souls 2 is an awesome game but these complaints are legit and they are serious issues.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
This is a legitimate complaint though?
How so? It's the most worthless, pedantic kind of nitpicking and it doesn't remotely impact the playing experience.

You can come at it from any angle; level design, enemy placement, bosses, yadda, yadda and all those criticisms have merit BUT all other criticisms of the game come FAR, FAR below the problem with the core basic engine, how you control the character, how you move and react in the world, the basic combat, movement etc. I am NOT talking about something that can be solved by pumping the agility stat - it is the engine itself that has the character moving in an awkward way that, to me, is inferior to the previous two games and makes the whole game a lesser experience regardless of everything else in the game, good or bad.
Meh. I thought DS2 controlled fine and I really don't know why everyone complaints. The controls are responsive and fluid and every movement I take is expected*. It's not as fast as Demon's Souls or Bloodborne, but Dark Souls was slower than Demon's Souls than Dark Souls II was to Dark Souls, so w/e.

* Except greatsword moveset, those do suck. They sucked in DS1 (only Demon's UGS ar real) too but at least didn't have this weird behaviour when locked-on. Don't know what they were thinking.

Also, at least they brought roll-delayed-r1 back, which they somehow removed in Dark Souls.

When people defend DS2 by saying it's bigger, there's more weapons, more fashion souls - I don't care, it's a sequel - I'd expect those things. What I don't expect is for them to take the main thing about the game that makes it so amazing (the basic gameplay) and ruin it.
Pffft. Yeah no hyperbole there. It's ruined.

Please.

Shhh..don't say anything bad about Souls or Bloodborne on GAF. I know from experience that it doesn't end well.
What on Earth are you talking about? Shitting on DS2 is one of the trendiest things on GAF along with shitting on Souls fans and worshipping Platinum games. :p

Thats actually a pretty good criticism since enemy hordes like that are quite common, least where I'm at.
Never had a problem with enemy hordes in DS2 unless I rushed in blindly. Same as in all the other Souls games really.

Bloodborne has way more enemy hordes. It also tends to have more movesets with crowd control, and there is the regain that helps, but if you get hit once you're like to get stunlocked and die just as fast.

• the gems are garbage especially in late game
Huh?
•shit like duel wielding and bows that were hyped up to be actually be good were just if not more useless in ds2.
Double-huh? Dual wielding was amazing. And bows are certainly not useless.

Man, these threads really are wearying.
 

Orayn

Member
I love dark souls 2 but there are significant problems with it. People keep vaguely complaining about the controls but specifically it's the weird, restrictive 8 way directional movement that cause this. Seriously, try it for yourself the movement is digital and you can only move your character and attack in 8 directions. This isn't present in any other game. Combine that with the fact that enemies have that weird sort of lock on where even if their attacks miss they sort of 'warp' on target and hit you. It's kind of balls. Demons and dark 1 don't have these problems. I still think dark souls 2 is an awesome game but these complaints are legit and they are serious issues.

This is completely false and takes about two seconds to debunk. Dark Souls 2 is more analog than the previous games and doesn't snap your dodging into backwards/forwards/left/right.
 
I don't think dark souls 3 will be some divisive fan service piece like people are expecting. This game is made by the director of demons, dark and bloodborne. It won't have that 'knockoff' feel that plagued dark souls 2. It's gonna be deep and dark and a perfect send off for the series. I absolutely can not wait.
 
I love dark souls 2 but there are significant problems with it. People keep vaguely complaining about the controls but specifically it's the weird, restrictive 8 way directional movement that cause this. Seriously, try it for yourself the movement is digital and you can only move your character and attack in 8 directions. This isn't present in any other game. Combine that with the fact that enemies have that weird sort of lock on where even if their attacks miss they sort of 'warp' on target and hit you. It's kind of balls. Demons and dark 1 don't have these problems. I still think dark souls 2 is an awesome game but these complaints are legit and they are serious issues.

That's actually a PC problem, if I remember correctly. The PS3/Xbox versions did not have this problem and I remember having to download a mod to fix it on PC.
 
I honestly don't get the complaint about world layout. It's a fantasy game and the world is supposed to feel like something from a dream. I think they nailed that perfectly with the environments and how they connect.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
This is completely false and takes about two seconds to debunk. Dark Souls 2 is more analog than the previous games and doesn't snap your dodging into backwards/forwards/left/right.
Yeah I have literally no idea what he's talking about. It's especially hilarious since when locked on, you have more freedom of movement than in DS1, since you can run backwards while still locked on. I actually hated that at first, but it was mostly because of old Demon's Souls PvP habits.
 

Siphorus

Member
To properly answer OP's question:

It was rushed, Namco influenced the design, and Miyazaki was unavailable to help out which led to some poor decision making on the fundamental level.

Yea this is the main sticking point for me as well, loved Demon Souls and Dark Souls, but when Dark Souls 2 came out it just didn't hold me or feel the same. Loving Bloodblone though.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
I don't know of its a bad game, but I couldn't get into it.

I bought it when it went on sale on PS4 a few weeks back, and played it for a bit. I loved Demon's Souls, loved Dark Souls, and loved Bloodborne (I even got the platinum trophy for that one, and I don't give a shot about trophies). I just didn't enjoy DS2. I'm beginning to think that that entry just isn't for me, not so much that it's a bad game. I think the changes and alterations from Dark Souls 1 were a turnoff for me. I haven't deleted it, because I want to put in a little bit more time with it before writing it off completely, but my game tie is limited.
 
That's actually a PC problem, if I remember correctly. The PS3/Xbox versions did not have this problem and I remember having to download a mod to fix it on PC.

nope. I actually noticed it myself on the xbox 360 version of the game and then again on ps4 with sotfs. Apparently it's not 'digital' movement but a weird deadzone issue. you're correct about the mod, which fixes it on the pc version. sadly this option isn't available on consoles. I'm guess ps3 version is plagued with the same issue. It's cool if people aren't noticing it, but it's definitely an issue with the game. It's easily demonstrable if you are looking for it. Go try it, on whatever version you have. I just tested it on ps4 against my pc copy of dark souls 1 and then bloodborne. It's super noticeable. Didn't even know there was a pc mod to fix it until now. I'm gonna try that right away!
 
This is completely false and takes about two seconds to debunk. Dark Souls 2 is more analog than the previous games and doesn't snap your dodging into backwards/forwards/left/right.

Sure that is an improvement. But then they screw it up by having your character face away from your enemy after a roll, making the combat slower and severely limiting opportunities for counter attacks. Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne get it right. When you dash/roll you pivot around the enemy, allowing for more fluidity in the combat instead of having it feel like fighting is a game of red light green light.

Because of this id rather be restricted to 4way dodging while locked like DeS/DaS1 and retain the fluidity of combat.
 

Cracklox

Member
I thought Shrine of Amana was the worst area in the game (though not quite as bad as Izalith) and that area is right after Drangleic.

Each for their own I guess. Was a memorable area for me. I thought it looked really cool visually, and it had some nice secrets hidden away if you were game to stride out into that dark water. I mentioned in an earlier post my first run was with no ranged option (pre-patch as well, so the tracking on the missiles was nasty), so getting across that part with 4-5 magic missile throwers and their mates was hell. But that was my fault for not bringing a bow. I also liked the boss there. Ezy, but cool design and fun fight. Him and a number of others go against the 'all the bosses are just humanoid types' criticism I see levelled at the game pretty regularly too

I guess I enjoyed it in the same way I enjoyed Blightown in 1 (performance issues aside). It was hell, and I wanted out, but I'll be damned if it didn't make me feel something. And the feeling of finally finding your way out......

The tracking. Those fucking giant dual wielding ax guys were the worst, moving like they were action figures on top of spinning record.

Oh good point. I love those last levels but those dudes were fucking cheats. One of the only times playing these games that I felt the computer was being a little (lot) artificially unfair.
 

MayMay

Banned
DS2 is better than DS1, this is a proven fact from both reviews and sales.

You're joking, right? Out of all the things you could've said you mention.. reviews and sales? Of course DS2 sold more than DS1, thats not because its a better game though its because Dark Souls as a brand gained alot of popularity between DS1 and DS2. lol

Edit: Yeah there's no way, you're definitely trolling lol
 
Yeah I have literally no idea what he's talking about. It's especially hilarious since when locked on, you have more freedom of movement than in DS1, since you can run backwards while still locked on. I actually hated that at first, but it was mostly because of old Demon's Souls PvP habits.

when locked on the issue isn't present at all. it's when you aren't locked on that the weird deadzone issues are present. This is on all versions of the game, not just the PC version. I'm thinking it was intended behavior to maybe encourage people to lock on. I agree there are a ton of quality of life improvements in darks souls II. I'm not one of those people who blindly hates the game and I actually prefer it in many ways to dark souls 1.
 

III-V

Member
This is a great game, does not deserve the abuse it takes here.

OP, try luring it out. Yes, it is more obtuse with less hand holding than BB. Shield is helpful pretty much always, although if you can dodge effectively, you do not need it. I basically tote the shield around and only use it for defense against ranged attacks. It helps to understand agility, i-frames and your mid to fast roll breakpoints. Beyond that, this game has so many viable builds its ridiculous.
 

Fhtagn

Member
* Except greatsword moveset, those do suck. They sucked in DS1 (only Demon's UGS ar real) too but at least didn't have this weird behaviour when locked-on. Don't know what they were thinking.

...and also large and giant clubs, and rapiers of all things. Which blows for me because my preferred PvE set up in Dark 2 is left hand Shield/Rapier/Bow and right hand Giant Club/Rapier/(pyro glove/staff/chime)

Man, these threads really are wearying.

Yeah. I feel like compiling a list of all of the gripes, hyperbole, hit box gifs, etc in one one large web page and FAQ to reply to all of these threads with.
 

gogosox82

Member
Its not a bad game. I'd argue its the weakest of all the souls games but that doesn't mean its bad. I think you should stick with it, level your adp (please for the love of god) and at least get one of the major bosses (you'll know its a big deal once you get there). If it doesn't hit you by that point then yeah go ahead and drop it. The game probably isn't for you. I think the game gets a lot better once you get past the first half of the game. A lot of those earlier areas are pretty boring and forgettable but alot of the areas and the dlc areas are pretty interesting with interesting designs to them.
 
Sure that is an improvement. But then they screw it up by having your character face away from your enemy after a roll, making the combat slower and severely limiting opportunities for counter attacks. Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne get it right. When you dash/roll you pivot around the enemy, allowing for more fluidity in the combat instead of having it feel like fighting is a game of red light green light.

Because of this id rather be restricted to 4way dodging while locked like DeS/DaS1 and retain the fluidity of combat.

Dark Souls 3 pretty much looks like Bloodborne 1.5, FROM kept most of BB gameplay there and even have the hilarious blood effect after you hit an enemy in an fully armored enemy
 

Hypron

Member
Double-huh? Dual wielding was amazing. And bows are certainly not useless.

Yeah it blows my mind someone can make those complaints. I used my bow more in DaS2 than in any other game in the series, it's super useful and does good damage with the right stats. Dual wielding is also great, it adds more moves to your weapons, some of which can be very practical. I remember wrecking Darklurker by dual wielding large clubs for example — the extra damage really helped.
 
It's an amazing game that made some questionable design decisions that were blown out of proportion by fans, in my opinion. I had a great time with it and encourage people who haven't played it yet to try it out when they get a chance. Hopefully Dark Souls 3 takes the best parts from all the previous games and blends them into the perfect package. Can't wait for April!
 
BTW the Scholar of the first Sin edition manage to fix some of the isses the vanilla game had, still some few areas are a mess with those huge enemies aggro and the questionable enemy placements in some areas
 
Dark Souls 2 is a good game with a bad reputation and a lot of questionable design decisions.

I wish they made a better game than they did, but I'm glad they made as good a game as they did.
 

takriel

Member
It's the highest rated souls game.
Critics or user-wise? For me, the the ramblings here on NeoGAF are a better indicator of a game's appeal than professional reviews. Dks 2 is a massively polarizing game here, and that's exactly my opinion on the game, as well.
 

bobawesome

Member
Lol yes. The Matthewmatosis video is literally "Let's nitpick about every fucking thing and some of those things are true for Dark Souls 1 but they're good in that game because reasons"

The worst part about the video is that so many of the game's detractors have taken to citing the video instead of giving their own opinion for why they find the game to be bad.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
How so? It's the most worthless, pedantic kind of nitpicking and it doesn't remotely impact the playing experience.

Eh... for those who truly like to roleplay, of course it does impact the experience. One of my most hated element in a create-your-own-hero RPGs in fact is when they shove a certain background/characteristic into your character that conflicts with the "create any character you want!" feature.

The opening of Dark Souls 2 unfortunately did this: the CG movie seemed really leaning in the assumption that your character was a male... unlike say, Bloodborne, where there was no indication what your character's gender was supposed to so you can roleplay your character the way you want.

Great if it doesn't affect you! But don't assume what doesn't affect you also doesn't affect anyone else, so no, this particular criticism also has value in it, regardless of what your personal opinion about it. The same thing was also being done to Fallout 4 (although much more explicitly), and many people criticized Bethesda's decision to do it, and rightfully so.
 

BigDes

Member
BTW the Scholar of the first Sin edition manage to fix some of the isses the vanilla game had, still some few areas are a mess with those huge enemies aggro and the questionable enemy placements in some areas
I agree.

Iron Keep is a huge fucking headache in sotfs, what with alonne knight gank squads, multiple npc invasions.

Rest of sotfs is a big improvement but Iron Keep is just, what
 

takriel

Member
The stamina management in this game is truly awful. It simply regenerates too slowly. Couple that with the fact that each swing - regardless of the weapon's size - consumes too much stamina and you got yourself the clunkiest Souls combat. This game would have benefitted enormously from more Dark 1/ Bloodborne stamina systems. But of course they had to change what wasn't broken and in the process broke the combat for me ironically.
 

Ferr986

Member
Sakauraba didn't do this song. The GOAT Souls composer Yuka Kitamura did.

Yep I know, that's why I said Sakuraba was lazy as fuck on DS2. It's just that I couldn't remember her name lol

I agree.

Iron Keep is a huge fucking headache in sotfs, what with alonne knight gank squads, multiple npc invasions.

Rest of sotfs is a big improvement but Iron Keep is just, what

yeah, increasing aggro range was a mistake IMO.
 

IC5

Member
Sure that is an improvement. But then they screw it up by having your character face away from your enemy after a roll, making the combat slower and severely limiting opportunities for counter attacks. Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne get it right. When you dash/roll you pivot around the enemy, allowing for more fluidity in the combat instead of having it feel like fighting is a game of red light green light.

Dark Souls 2 stresses the minutia of positioning a lot more than Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. They take away your invincibility frames, But give you extra control. And you need that control anyway, considering how some of the enemies attack.

By handing you favors like automatically facing your enemy after most movements, the two previous games actually limit themselves.
It doesn't take long to figure out how to snap around to an enemy, in Dark Souls 2. But it does take time to get used to working harder for your dodges and creating openings for attacks.

and if you are playing scholar of the first sin, you really need to get these little details figured out. Because enemies chase you twice as far. If you pull an enemy, you often have to commit and fight them.
 

takriel

Member
Sure that is an improvement. But then they screw it up by having your character face away from your enemy after a roll, making the combat slower and severely limiting opportunities for counter attacks. Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne get it right. When you dash/roll you pivot around the enemy, allowing for more fluidity in the combat instead of having it feel like fighting is a game of red light green light.

Because of this id rather be restricted to 4way dodging while locked like DeS/DaS1 and retain the fluidity of combat.
This can't be stressed enough. The fluidity of the combat is severely limited in Dks 2 because of this. It's a stupid decision, and the fact that Dks 3 and BB changed it again tells me that FROM and Miyazaki think so, too. Thank God.
 

correojon

Member
I haven´t played Bloodborne and I liked DS2, but I can understand some things OP says. DS2 felt like a step down from DS1 due to 3 important things:
  • Linear world in contrast to DS1´s fantastic interconnected world.
  • Bad enemy encounter design: DS2 relies too much on mobs to artificially raise difficulty.
  • Bad collision detection & enemy homming attacks: Dodging in DS2 feels more unreliable than in DS1 and the enemies can home in their attacks by rotating in place after launching them. In DS1 hit boxes detection was just perfect and you could even use the animation of your attacks to avoid an enemy spear by a hair, but in DS2 sometimes you´ll get the (right) feeling you´ve been hit by a phantom hitbox.

It´s still a great game but has some problems which will specially shine if you have played a better Souls game.
 
Dark Souls 2 stresses the minutia of positioning a lot more than Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. They take away your invincibility frames, But give you extra control. And you need that control anyway, considering how some of the enemies attack.

By handing you favors like automatically facing your enemy after most movements, the two previous games actually limit themselves.
It doesn't take long to figure out how to snap around to an enemy, in Dark Souls 2. But it does take time to get used to working harder for your dodges and creating openings for attacks.

and if you are playing scholar of the first sin, you really need to get these little details figured out. Because enemies chase you twice as far. If you pull an enemy, you often have to commit and fight them.

That extra stress only serves to make combat more tedious. Especially when fighting groups of enemies. It in no way makes the game better. Theres a reason DaS3 is reverting on that stance. Its simply bad design.

Tell me how its better to be fighting an enemy and dodge an attack which is punishable but having to wait, re-position then attack, compared to being able to do that in one full motion. BB has 8 Directional dodging similar to Ds2. The difference is the PC always faces the enemy giving the gameplay a more upbeat feel. Again Ds2 feels like playing a game of red light, green light. This is a problem the earlier, more restrictive games(in terms of lock on) did not run into.

Having to work for openings against enemies should be dependent upon the way their moveset works. Not on how restrictive/un-intuitive the developers can make player movement.
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Eh... for those who truly like to roleplay, of course it does impact the experience. One of my most hated element in a create-your-own-hero RPGs in fact is when they shove a certain background/characteristic into your character that conflicts with the "create any character you want!" feature.

The opening of Dark Souls 2 unfortunately did this: the CG movie seemed really leaning in the assumption that your character was a male... unlike say, Bloodborne, where there was no indication what your character's gender was supposed to so you can roleplay your character the way you want.

Great if it doesn't affect you! But don't assume what doesn't affect you also doesn't affect anyone else, so no, this particular criticism also has value in it, regardless of what your personal opinion about it. The same thing was also being done to Fallout 4 (although much more explicitly), and many people criticized Bethesda's decision to do it, and rightfully so.

Almost laughed audibly on public transportation reading this. Criticisms don't have innate value simply because it was voiced by someone, somewhere, at some point. Bloodborne being impacted at all because one's roleplay experience was affected by the CG intro movie leaning in the assumption the character was male is by far the most irrelevant criticism of any game i've ever read.
 
It's not a bad game by any means, but I can see it being difficult to go to it from Bloodborne. The later is definitely the best souls game to date.
 

poodaddy

Member
Mods should change this thread's title to Gettysburg......

On topic; I just wanted to pop in and say that I just started playing Scholar of the First Sin because I missed the original DS2 and I'm absolutely in love with it. Like....like deeply. Don't know why so many dislike it, it has never once seemed unfair to me; I earned every one of my deaths through stupidity and it taught me to adapt and overcome by learning the enemies tells and move sets. I'm only two bosses in but I'm absolutely head over heels in love with it so far, and this is from someone who absolutely adored Demon's Souls and Bloodborne as well so....I dunno. Feel free to continue arguing amongst each other about how this person's opinions are wrong; etc. etc.
 
nope. I actually noticed it myself on the xbox 360 version of the game and then again on ps4 with sotfs. Apparently it's not 'digital' movement but a weird deadzone issue. you're correct about the mod, which fixes it on the pc version. sadly this option isn't available on consoles. I'm guess ps3 version is plagued with the same issue. It's cool if people aren't noticing it, but it's definitely an issue with the game. It's easily demonstrable if you are looking for it. Go try it, on whatever version you have. I just tested it on ps4 against my pc copy of dark souls 1 and then bloodborne. It's super noticeable. Didn't even know there was a pc mod to fix it until now. I'm gonna try that right away!

I have tried it dude. Sorry, but you're wrong. I'll take a video to demonstrate the difference but I really don't want to spend the effort to do so.

The best Dark Souls player in the world, UrbanOrb, made a movie-length video about why Dark Souls 2 is bad, OP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGLBk7O8o5c

lol not Yami Tamashi or Steel386 lol
 
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