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[OutrageousFacts]

You maybe saw my thread about wanting flawed heroes, but that desire actually goes deeper. I hate the presentation of pure happiness, pretending as if everything is happy, good, positive. When I see footage of the new Pokemon and how the character rides his/her bike in a colorful world where everybody smiles at each other and where trainers who lose are all 'oh well, I'm happy for you. Gotta train harder, haha' - when I see that I just want to enter the game with my Monster Hunter-character and slash that bitch in two gory pieces, his/her bike included.

Now, I'm not a fan of edgy violent games either. I hate Doom, Borderlands or Rage. BUT I want game worlds that, even when overall peacefulm/uplifting, don't HIDE the bad stuff. To keep with the Pokemon-example: When a trainer loses I'd like him to look depressed and say 'sorry, I can't talk to you right now ...'.

And that's not just games-related either, it's also an issue in discussions about games! The past weeks we saw the release of Death Stranding and Pokemon, and in both cases those who criticized the games were dismissed as haters. Even these 2 examples aside, too many times nowadays I see people being extremely averse to any sort of meaningful criticism, always deemphasizing something with phrases like 'if I had to nitpick' or 'a little bit', as if just stating criticism without this would kill some snowflake.

My personal go-to hate-object has become Animal Crossing and its fans. These are the pinnacle of 'nothing bad can happen' and 'let's all be happy friends!'. GROANS

All I want is some balance, game worlds and debate culture where we can be critical without being called haters and someone starting to cry.

Am I the only one? Pls tell me others noticed this, too.

 

[Abriael_GN]

Many confuse irrational hate with criticism as well.

If I had a cent for each time I saw someone who was being obviously irrational and salty trying to disguise it as "criticism" I'd at least be able to pay myself and my girlfriend a very fancy dinner.

 

[Husky]

In some Pokemon games you fucking crush your rival's spirit. You take their hopes and dash them. You destroy Cheren. You see that boy, your best friend from your hometown, cry as you waste his team one final time.
How's that for honest emotional expression. Destroy that child's dreams. Go on, take from him that happiness you so despise.

 

[Phase]

Criticism is what drives progress, whether that be in video games or other things in life. I think gaming debates need criticism. Without it mediocrity becomes standard.

 

[Saruhashi]

Many confuse irrational hate with criticism as well.

If I had a cent for each time I saw someone who was being obviously irrational and salty trying to disguise it as "criticism" I'd at least be able to pay myself and my girlfriend a very fancy dinner.

Yuuuuup.

Far too many people who don't seem to understand the concept of genres in video games and take the huff because a game isn't what they think it should be.

Too many people who can't accept that some games just aren't for them.

Coming out with "Pokemon is too happy and cheerful" or saying "Death Stranding is just a walking simulator" may not be hate but it's absolutely fucking shite "criticism".

A crazy thing for me is that people can't wrap their head around the idea that Animal Crossing is deliberately designed to be a specific thing for a specific audience while also trying to find new fans with an open and welcoming experience.

"But it hides the bad stuff" is dreadful criticism because it totally misses the entire point.

Its the equivalent to sitting down to watch a baseball game and after 10 minutes going "what the fuck, this isn't basketball, don't these clowns know that basketball is a very exciting game".

Just too many people don't seem to get that video games can aim for specific goals and appeal to specific audiences and that not meeting other unrelated goals or appealing to completely different audiences isn't criticism.

Reminds me of Sarkeesian style video game "commentary". The game does X, Y and Z but I don't like that. The game should do things that I like instead.

I'd prefer to see criticism that says "here is what the game is trying to do and this is how well and how effectively it achieves that" rather than "the game does X but it would be better if it did Y".

"I wish the game was something completely different" is just actually really lazy criticism so maybe it's appropriate that it gets lazily labelled as "hate".

 

[OutrageousFacts]

Yuuuuup.

Far too many people who don't seem to understand the concept of genres in video games and take the huff because a game isn't what they think it should be.

Too many people who can't accept that some games just aren't for them.

Coming out with "Pokemon is too happy and cheerful" or saying "Death Stranding is just a walking simulator" may not be hate but it's absolutely fucking shite "criticism".

A crazy thing for me is that people can't wrap their head around the idea that Animal Crossing is deliberately designed to be a specific thing for a specific audience while also trying to find new fans with an open and welcoming experience.

"But it hides the bad stuff" is dreadful criticism because it totally misses the entire point.

Its the equivalent to sitting down to watch a baseball game and after 10 minutes going "what the fuck, this isn't basketball, don't these clowns know that basketball is a very exciting game".

Just too many people don't seem to get that video games can aim for specific goals and appeal to specific audiences and that not meeting other unrelated goals or appealing to completely different audiences isn't criticism.

Reminds me of Sarkeesian style video game "commentary". The game does X, Y and Z but I don't like that. The game should do things that I like instead.

I'd prefer to see criticism that says "here is what the game is trying to do and this is how well and how effectively it achieves that" rather than "the game does X but it would be better if it did Y".

"I wish the game was something completely different" is just actually really lazy criticism so maybe it's appropriate that it gets lazily labelled as "hate".

Wow, I disagree with everything you just said :/

 

[Saruhashi]

Criticism is what drives progress, whether that be in video games or other things in life. I think gaming debates need criticism. Without it mediocrity becomes standard.

I think its worth noting though that sometimes the actual criticism itself can be mediocre at times.

This is something certain other groups pull when their awful "takes" get pulled apart online.

You see stuff like "gamers can't handle it when games are criticised" or stuff like "games need criticism to grow and the reactions proves that gamers don't want gaming to get better".

What if the criticism is rubbish though?

Surely it's perfectly fair to criticise the critic?

GOOD criticism can drive progress.
Not all criticism is good though.

 

[anthraticus]

gaming debates need criticism. Without it mediocrity becomes standard.

Too late.

 

[Grand Theft Scratchy]

Animal Crossing is meant to be relaxing and Pokemon will always be targeted to children who don't know any better.

 

[Abriael_GN]

Criticism is what drives progress, whether that be in video games or other things in life. I think gaming debates need criticism. Without it mediocrity becomes standard.

This is true. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have the slightest idea of what "criticism" is, and can't express it like civilized human beings.

 

[Virex]

I swear it feels like I'm on reddit lately

 

[Plague Doctor]

I am only on board with this when people reach the point in the discussion where "Well it's all just subjective." This is a painfully reductive way to look at the world and culture and limits discussion. Yes, everything is subjective to the individual and you can just like something. That is an option. But jumping into a discussion on the merits and flaws with the punchline, "Well I don't care any of this. I just like [thing being discussed]." Okay. Okay. Where do we go from here with that? Are you just here to run defense for it out of a baseless enjoyment? You aren't adding anything to the discussion or criticism.

Edit: The inverse is also fucking annoying (and many times, a lot more). "I just don't like this thing. Not going to give a real reason. Not going to give criticism. I just felt like shitting up this discussion so all of you can know I hate this thing." Though, shitposting can be delivered in funny fucking ways somtimes and there is value in that.

So yeah. If you are going to be an asshole, you got to be funny.

 

[Stilton Disco]

While I absolutely agree that the dismissal of criticism of games for being mono focused on a specific formula or set of tropes that get rehashed year affer year is annoying as hell, especially with Pokemon, which found said winning formula and has doggedly stuck with it well past the point of stagnation just because it sells without the need to try harder.

However, your personal preference for darker story lines does not invalidate the reason for existence of universes that are overwhelming noble and bright. That caters to a specific audience who want such cheerful, escapist experiences.

You can level the same criticisms that such universes are unrealistic at any fantasy or sci fi fiction, since those are inherently unrealistic also.

Personally, I love that such a mix of games for different moods exists. Sometimes after a hard day theres nothing better than slipping into the warm comforting blanket that is Stardew Valley, others it's nice to get the blood pumping with a dip into the nightmarish horror of Resi VII. Hell, I love 40K, the franchise that invented the term 'Grim Dark', where the amount of fucked everyone is, all of the time, is dialled up to 11 million.

Variety is the spice of life, and making everything 'balanced' will just make everything more homogenous.

 

[TheMay30thMan]

What a whiny thread.

....Am I stating criticism correctly?

 

[nkarafo]

What about publishers who try to rip off gamers with their anti-consumer tactics, heavy monetization, draconian DRM, broken games, etc? Am i supposed to say "it's not for me" and let them devour the industry without harshing their mellow just a bit?

 

[-Arcadia-]

OP, you want some criticism? This isn’t your blog. You don’t have to create a new thread for every thought in your head, or slight made against you. You make some good stuff, but this thread is an asinine stream-of-consciousness.

You maybe saw my thread about wanting flawed heroes, but that desire actually goes deeper. I hate the presentation of pure happiness, pretending as if everything is happy, good, positive. When I see footage of the new Pokemon and how the character rides his/her bike in a colorful world where everybody smiles at each other and where trainers who lose are all 'oh well, I'm happy for you. Gotta train harder, haha' - when I see that I just want to enter the game with my Monster Hunter-character and slash that bitch in two gory pieces, his/her bike included.

OP is too cool for any of us here on Neogaf.

Taking that seriously, ok? Don’t play them? It’s not like games with a positive worldview are all that frequent, or worth hating.

Now, I'm not a fan of edgy violent games either. I hate Doom, Borderlands or Rage. BUT I want game worlds that, even when overall peacefulm/uplifting, don't HIDE the bad stuff. To keep with the Pokemon-example: When a trainer loses I'd like him to look depressed and say 'sorry, I can't talk to you right now ...'.

Everything is bad. In conjunction with not liking colorful games in another thread, I can’t imagine having tastes this narrow.

Likewise, some people are capable of congratulating others after a loss. I do frequently.

And that's not just games-related either, it's also an issue in discussions about games! The past weeks we saw the release of Death Stranding and Pokemon, and in both cases those who criticized the games were dismissed as haters. Even these 2 examples aside, too many times nowadays I see people being extremely averse to any sort of meaningful criticism, always deemphasizing something with phrases like 'if I had to nitpick' or 'a little bit', as if just stating criticism without this would kill some snowflake.

Someone disagreed with me on the internet, and I’m so butthurt I’ve made multiple topics on the subject, including a poll asking which fanbase is the worst.

There was plenty of criticism for these two on Gaf, with DS being a crazy example, outside the OT, which actually needed mod protection to be the one place where discussion didn’t derail into arguments.

My personal go-to hate-object has become Animal Crossing and its fans. These are the pinnacle of 'nothing bad can happen' and 'let's all be happy friends!'. GROANS

This feels interestingly targeted at me, lol, after I responded to an asinine topic of yours about only mAtURe Nintendo games being good, or some such thing, with an example of Animal Crossing. I really hope this is the case, as it would be hilarious.

To be charitable, maybe not, but spending your time “hating” a game and it’s fanbase, because you don’t like happiness or optimism, is pretty sad.

All I want is some balance, game worlds and debate culture where we can be critical without being called haters and someone starting to cry.

Here ya go.

 

[Saruhashi]

What about publishers who try to rip off gamers with their anti-consumer tactics, heavy monetization, draconian DRM, broken games, etc? Am i supposed to say "it's not for me" and let them devour the industry without harshing their mellow just a bit?

I think that's almost a separate argument because it's not really about the story, world building or even gameplay content of the games. It's more about how the games are marketed and what kind of value for money the consumer is getting.

Definitely worthy of criticism but it can be more difficult because it comes down to whatever this large mass of consumers are prepared to pay for.

I always tend to think it's better to just vote with your wallet. I will never ever buy something like modern FIFA because I think the monetization is a total disgrace but I also have to admit I bought Shadow of War and thoroughly enjoyed it and never one spent money on that extra bullshit.

I think you can both criticize it and say "it's not for me" but, at the end of the day, if loads of people are willing to pay the price to have the thing then the market has kind of decided that your criticism is irrelevant.

If a game that is loaded with micro-trasactions, pay to win, with a subscription service and paid DLC is selling like crazy then there is very little that we can do. Better to give your money only to developers and publishers who's product you are happy with and hope that the market forces will push things towards those kind of games.

 

[GooseMan69]

I think it’s the other way around as far as “criticism” goes. The constant negativity on the internet is exhausting and it’s why I’m trying to stay offline more and more.

Don’t get me wrong, I think CONSUME PRODUCT mentality is poison, but these armchair critics are just another cog in the machine. I can picture them CONSUMING every product in sight with notebook in hand, so they can go on the internet and post a bunch of buzzwords and phrases, under the guise of muh constructuve criticism. You know, vague phrases like “bad writing”, “pacing issues”, “poor game design”.

 

[nkarafo]

I always tend to think it's better to just vote with your wallet. I will never ever buy something like modern FIFA because I think the monetization is a total disgrace but I also have to admit I bought Shadow of War and thoroughly enjoyed it and never one spent money on that extra bullshit.

I think you can both criticize it and say "it's not for me" but, at the end of the day, if loads of people are willing to pay the price to have the thing then the market has kind of decided that your criticism is irrelevant.

If a game that is loaded with micro-trasactions, pay to win, with a subscription service and paid DLC is selling like crazy then there is very little that we can do. Better to give your money only to developers and publishers who's product you are happy with and hope that the market forces will push things towards those kind of games.

The issue here though is that a game or series could be "for me" previously, making me support it and spend time and money on it and then they suddenly change it to "not for me" later on.

You said it yourself, you would never buy something like a modern FIFA game. But what if you were a fan of the series ever since the first game in 1995? It would really suck having dedicated so much time and money in a series only to see it burn like this. It's a legit reason to criticize.

And it's not just the monetization practices. Could be messing with the games themselves. Like how some incompetent developer completely messed up Silent Hill HD collection making it not only a buggy mess but also by messing with the original artistic view and taking liberties themselves changing stuff. Or how about changing a series to appease a different audience? Like how they ruined Metroid OtherM to appease casual gamers. Yeah, OtherM isn't for me but that's why i criticized it. Because it was for me before and now it isn't. Am i entitled? Maybe but when you are supporting a developer all these years, buying their games, spending your free time on their products, supporting them in forums and discussions, etc, how can you not be? At the least, i should be entitled to criticize them.

 

[Psykodad]

Gamers are overly sensitive whiny snowflakes in general.

Not much different from SJWs, Woke culture and Anita.

Edit:

Might have misinterpreted the topic, but my point still stands.

I think it's a problem within the gaming industry as a whole.

 

[Saruhashi]

The issue here though is that a game or series could be "for me" previously, making me support it and spend time and money on it and then they suddenly change it to "not for me" later on.

You said it yourself, you would never buy something like a modern FIFA game. But what if you were a fan of the series ever since the first game in 1995? It would really suck having dedicated so much time and money in a series only to see it burn like this. It's a legit reason to criticize.

And it's not just the monetization practices. Could be messing with the games themselves. Like how some incompetent developer completely messed up Silent Hill HD collection making it not only a buggy mess but also by messing with the original artistic view and taking liberties themselves changing stuff. Or how about changing a series to appease a different audience? Like how they ruined Metroid OtherM to appease casual gamers. Yeah, OtherM isn't for me but that's why i criticized it. Because it was for me before and now it isn't. Am i entitled? Maybe but when you are supporting a developer all these years, buying their games, spending your free time on their products, supporting them in forums and discussions, etc, how can you not be? I feel like i'm entitled to criticize them.

I was a huge fan of FIFA. I remember when the first FIFA arrived on Genesis the game was sold out everywhere and I had to wait so long to have it.
Loved the 1998 FIFA and those early 2000s versions of the game.

The modern ones are just grim. I absolutely despise the whole Ultimate Team thing with those stupid fucking cards etc. It sucks.

There's really nothing I can do though besides just not buying anymore. They lost a customer but I am sure they don't give a fuck because they gained millions more.

Just like you can outgrow some games, I think it's possible that sometimes a thing we loved just outgrows us.

I don't think any of the criticisms you listed are invalid.
I mean, I would be SO disappointed if From Software's next title has difficulty options and appeases whiny people who want an easy version of their games. I would criticize but ultimately it comes down to whether or not I am willing to spend.

In a case like that it would be even more interesting because we have competing criticisms where one side will end up losing.
So the next From Software game can't really escape criticism at all because if I get what I want then someone is mad and if they get what they want then I am mad.

Using the OPs Pokemon example we can see that kind of thing taking shape.
The Pokemon game is too happy clappy and hides the harsh brutality of real life. OK, criticism noted.
New "darker and grittier" Pokemon comes out and people are like "wtf this is some depressing garbage". OK, so now we have a whole new criticism that goes directly against the first round of criticisms.

Which is why voting with the wallet is the only thing that really counts.

I think to some degree we are all "entitled" as consumers.
When I throw down 60 bucks on a game I want to get the absolute best game possible for my 60 bucks.
I might forgive or ignore this and that but at the end of the day I want my value for money.
If a publisher comes to you saying "here is our new game, we didn't bother our arses and it's a bit shit really, 60 bucks please" then you are entitled to tell them to fuck off.

However, if there are millions of other people who are like "holy shit, I love this, shut up and take my money" then it's a little bit of a bad look to be an enraged onlooker demanding that they stop liking the thing or trying to rationalize that the thing is objectively bad.

People share the Red Letter Media meme about consuming the product and getting excited for the next product.
If folk are enjoying these products though then for sure the criticism can just seem bitter and entitled.
I mean, I personally am annoyed by how the new Star Wars turned out but the only thing I can really do is just get over it, move on to something else and stop giving them my money.
Howling into the void sure is cathartic but it is what it is. Millions of people love those movies. My criticisms are just falling on deaf ears.

 

[Saruhashi]

Gamers are overly sensitive whiny snowflakes in general.

Not much different from SJWs, Woke culture and Anita.

Edit:

Might have misinterpreted the topic, but my point still stands.

I think it's a problem within the gaming industry as a whole.

Wouldn't say it's just gaming to be honest.

Anyone who ever worked a retail job will tell you that customers are just the fucking worst.

A deadly stabbing at Popeyes was linked to the return of the chicken sandwich, and it reflects a troubling trend for fast-food workers

Popeyes' chicken sandwich is back. Last time it was available in stores, employees had to deal with some angry customers.

www.businessinsider.de

People flipping out because a sandwich sold out.

So it transfers over to gaming quite easily with people melting down when Game X does not provide the exact experience that some people wanted.
At least it's just mostly kept online and kept to verbal sparring.

Imagine fisticuffs breaking out over Pokemon.

 

[OutrageousFacts]

Sigh

I don't want a 'dark Pokemon' (actually, now I do, but that wasn't the point in this topic). I want a semi-realistic range of emotions in games. A Pokemon-game can generally remain a positive, uplifting experience. But stop this pretense that's especially grating in SwordShield where all the characters are smiling so much it makes me want to break something.

This wasn't as bad in past games (last Pokemon I played is Black and White 2) where graphics were bad enough to hide what characters ttuly felt, and the actual text often *was* darker. Like, 90%-95% was happy. But there were darker tones, too. RedBlue remains my favorites, with a ghost town of dead Pokemon dealing with death. Or Pokedex saying 'Butterfly dies when it meets up for mating purposes'. Plus the anime playing a huge role. I remember the whole Sabrina-story (arena leader of the psychic arena) who had some serious trauma and almost killed Ash and everyone. Similar, when Charizard was fighting Magmar for 8th arena in the volcano, at some point they make it clear: if charizard falls into the lava, he's fucking dead! And then there was Giovanni's Team Rocket doing unethical genetic experiments to throw over the world.

Pokemon *had* what I find lacking now, so the whole 'you're just bitter because you're expecting something that was never there' accusation is bs :]

And again: I don't want (at this point) a dark Pokemon. I want a Pokemon that features *some* realistic/dark elements - like it already did in the past. Instead of having all these dead, ever-smiling mannequins.

That can be translated to other games, too, ofc.

 

[Plague Doctor]

I was a huge fan of FIFA. I remember when the first FIFA arrived on Genesis the game was sold out everywhere and I had to wait so long to have it.
Loved the 1998 FIFA and those early 2000s versions of the game.

The modern ones are just grim. I absolutely despise the whole Ultimate Team thing with those stupid fucking cards etc. It sucks.

There's really nothing I can do though besides just not buying anymore. They lost a customer but I am sure they don't give a fuck because they gained millions more.

Just like you can outgrow some games, I think it's possible that sometimes a thing we loved just outgrows us.

I don't think any of the criticisms you listed are invalid.
I mean, I would be SO disappointed if From Software's next title has difficulty options and appeases whiny people who want an easy version of their games. I would criticize but ultimately it comes down to whether or not I am willing to spend.

In a case like that it would be even more interesting because we have competing criticisms where one side will end up losing.
So the next From Software game can't really escape criticism at all because if I get what I want then someone is mad and if they get what they want then I am mad.

Using the OPs Pokemon example we can see that kind of thing taking shape.
The Pokemon game is too happy clappy and hides the harsh brutality of real life. OK, criticism noted.
New "darker and grittier" Pokemon comes out and people are like "wtf this is some depressing garbage". OK, so now we have a whole new criticism that goes directly against the first round of criticisms.

Which is why voting with the wallet is the only thing that really counts.

I think to some degree we are all "entitled" as consumers.
When I throw down 60 bucks on a game I want to get the absolute best game possible for my 60 bucks.
I might forgive or ignore this and that but at the end of the day I want my value for money.
If a publisher comes to you saying "here is our new game, we didn't bother our arses and it's a bit shit really, 60 bucks please" then you are entitled to tell them to fuck off.

However, if there are millions of other people who are like "holy shit, I love this, shut up and take my money" then it's a little bit of a bad look to be an enraged onlooker demanding that they stop liking the thing or trying to rationalize that the thing is objectively bad.

People share the Red Letter Media meme about consuming the product and getting excited for the next product.
If folk are enjoying these products though then for sure the criticism can just seem bitter and entitled.
I mean, I personally am annoyed by how the new Star Wars turned out but the only thing I can really do is just get over it, move on to something else and stop giving them my money.
Howling into the void sure is cathartic but it is what it is. Millions of people love those movies. My criticisms are just falling on deaf ears.

I agree and cosign most of this. If someone enjoys something, cool. If someone doesn't, equally cool. Your money, your life, go nuts.

The issue is the framing of where they enter the discussion. Like if it's a discussion, "Here are my issues with Fallout 76," definitely debate if you love Fallout 76 but include what you specifically like. If you are going to trash or defend, cool - just give reasons and then let's have a back and forth. That's what makes criticism and discussion interesting. The one line, low effort cheerleading or shitting is obnoxious.

As for the RLM refference, I think many of us use it for how the bullshit media acts like stealth marketing for franchises and companies with that clip. I can see how it can be used in a personal way and that ain't cool. But you as an individual? Seriously, derive as much joy from this wacky ride we call life as you can. Haters can go fuck themselves when it comes to your personal life.

 

[TindalosPup]

Imagine fisticuffs breaking out over Pokemon.

It's really not that hard to imagine

There were, supposedly, recent death threats toward Game Freak devs. People take their pokeymans very seriously, ever since it's birth it's never been the fandom without an occasional stabbing or violent outburst. The trading cards and games were banned from my school's premises growing up because of that sort of thing

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal-boy-stabbed-over-pokemon-cards-1.172068

Parents Have Long Feared That Pokemon Is Bad for Kids

The new Pokémon Go mania isn't the first time that Pokémon has sparked fear over players' well-being

time.com

Apokelypse: Violence, crime, and death connected to 'Pokemon Go'

Since Pokemon Go took over millions of users’ screens in July, there have been over 75 reports of violence, crime, and deaths connected with the gaming phenomenon.

www.vice.com

 

[OutrageousFacts]

It's really not that hard to imagine

There were, supposedly, recent death threats toward Game Freak devs.

Death threats that nobody outside of Resetera, kotaku, polygon, waypoint and eurogamer ever saw, yes. :]

 

[TindalosPup]

Death threats that nobody outside of Resetera, kotaku, polygon, waypoint and eurogamer ever saw, yes. :]

I said supposedly because I think it's bs myself, only saw anything about it because people like that don't let things, even invented, go unnoticed

I personally agree with you, I've tried to voice my opinion about Sword and Shield and how it's a disappointment only to be told it's not made for me and getting the "It's fun" response to any argument I present.

edit: not to mention the indirect name calling

 

[Saruhashi]

I want a semi-realistic range of emotions in games.

"I want a semi-realistic range of emotions in games."

Don't we already have this? There are so many games out there it seems impossible to me that a player couldn't just pick something that suits their tastes.

Surely you don't mean that EVERY game should have realistic emotions or that the fact that a game doesn't have "a semi-realistic range of emotions" is a worthy criticism?

Pokemon and Animal Crossing are terrible examples to use here because the games are built specifically to be cutesy, happy, child-friendly products.
So maybe there was once an item in the Pokedex that was "dark" or there is a Pokemon graveyard or whatever but that seems like such a weirdly specific thing to actively want in a game. Pokemon was fine but then they took out references to death and I hate it now.

I get that people don't like to hear "it's a game for kids" and get annoyed hearing that "the game is fun" but I would say that fundamentally these games are built from the ground up to be very child/beginner friendly. The intent is for a player to pick the game up and have a easy going, inoffensive, and, dare I say it, fun experience.

Gaming is a weird hobby like that.
When someone signs up for Netflix because they want to watch gripping TV dramas and action movies do they really complain because there is also content on the platform aimed at other tastes?
I love Breaking Bad but what is this fucking Thomas the Tank Engine bullshit!? Trains don't have faces and it just seems like it's aimed at kids to be honest. It should be grittier and more realistic. Maybe Thomas will trundle back home one day with a broken face and all covered in brains and entrails after some depressed office worker decided to end it all.
Maybe the Postman Pat could grab a womans ass or something. Just to make it a bit more realistic. He's just TOO much of a good guy, you know.

It seems that we do this with games a lot.
It isn't enough to get RDR2 or The Witcher 3 etc.
We also have to moan that all these kiddy cartoony games don't have enough "dark" content.

We already have games with a range of emotions and tones etc etc.
Loads of games are aimed at mature audiences.
I think it's fine, probably even necessary, to have games that appeal to other audiences though.

I dunno. For me, I find it easy to look at games I'm not interested in and skip them. I don't have time to play every game out there, nor would I want to if I did.

 

[Roni]

Criticism is the lowest common denominator in contributions to society.

Because, sure, anyone can complain about not liking thing. But that still leaves the burden of changing said thing to someone else.

A much more useful use for your energy is to actually work to improve and/or build something you do like. You'll be sure to find other people who also enjoy the same things you do.

 

[Digity]

I swear it feels like I'm on reddit lately

*shudders with horror*

 

[Shantae]

I feel like I agree with the sentiment regarding Pokemon. Pokemon can still be uplifting, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be drama. I'm trying to enjoy my time with Pokemon Sword lately, but god, that character Hop makes me wanna punch him in the face so much. He doesn't seem to get that I'm gonna kick his ass every single time, and that he sucks. He always takes his loses in stride, and is never disappointed that he didn't do better. I might like him if he wasn't so happy go lucky all the damn time, make him an interesting character, if not, stop forcing me to talk to his dumb ass so often.

Then in the case of someone like Bede, who is so one dimensional and arrogant, it's annoying that when you defeat them, they don't seem to get upset at the fact that they also fucking suck. They just continue going on as if they're the best ever, even though I kick their ass every time. Show me their frustration at losing, and confusion as to why they can't beat me since they have built up this idea that they are the best, and un-defeatable. Games being "for kids" is not a good enough excuse, it just feels like lazy writing. Detective Pikachu was one of my favorite movies this year, because it exceeded all my expectations. Sure, it wasn't deep or really complex, but it still managed to play with the audiences' emotions, and get me invested in the characters. There was actual conflict, even among our heroes in the movie. I feel like Game Freak needs a wake up call, and to stop holding Pokemon back.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

A lot of criticism is low-quality because the internet has connected us all. So there's a background static that needs to be peeled back before we can even discuss whether criticism is warranted or not.

Personally, I don't think there's enough criticism in the game industry. We still get broken games. We still get Epic Store exclusives. We still get bad mobile-game spinoffs. And we still get worthless reviews that aren't worth the server-space they're stored on. The problem is most of the criticism isn't very pointed and therefore blends into the background static mentioned above. That is one consequence of prioritizing wokeness above the ability to play a videogame: journos aren't able to competently critique their medium anymore.

 

[Hawks Eclipse]

Criticism is the lowest common denominator in contributions to society.

Because, sure, anyone can complain about not liking thing. But that still leaves the burden of changing said thing to someone else.

A much more useful use for your energy is to actually work to improve and/or build something you do like. You'll be sure to find other people who also enjoy the same things you do.

I think what matters is how insightful the feedback is. Good criticism is honest (as much as it can be given human bias) and makes the "room" for improvement tangible, not just for the makers but also for some others coming across it.

Imagine I praised or criticized your reply with one of two sentences:

"This. So much this."

or

"What a shitty take."

Did either one of them contribute anything outside of "validation" or "building character"?

 

[Fuz]

Well, you can count on me.

 

[OutrageousFacts]

"I want a semi-realistic range of emotions in games."

Don't we already have this? There are so many games out there it seems impossible to me that a player couldn't just pick something that suits their tastes.

Surely you don't mean that EVERY game should have realistic emotions or that the fact that a game doesn't have "a semi-realistic range of emotions" is a worthy criticism?

Pokemon and Animal Crossing are terrible examples to use here because the games are built specifically to be cutesy, happy, child-friendly products.
So maybe there was once an item in the Pokedex that was "dark" or there is a Pokemon graveyard or whatever but that seems like such a weirdly specific thing to actively want in a game. Pokemon was fine but then they took out references to death and I hate it now.

I get that people don't like to hear "it's a game for kids" and get annoyed hearing that "the game is fun" but I would say that fundamentally these games are built from the ground up to be very child/beginner friendly. The intent is for a player to pick the game up and have a easy going, inoffensive, and, dare I say it, fun experience.

Gaming is a weird hobby like that.
When someone signs up for Netflix because they want to watch gripping TV dramas and action movies do they really complain because there is also content on the platform aimed at other tastes?
I love Breaking Bad but what is this fucking Thomas the Tank Engine bullshit!? Trains don't have faces and it just seems like it's aimed at kids to be honest. It should be grittier and more realistic. Maybe Thomas will trundle back home one day with a broken face and all covered in brains and entrails after some depressed office worker decided to end it all.
Maybe the Postman Pat could grab a womans ass or something. Just to make it a bit more realistic. He's just TOO much of a good guy, you know.

It seems that we do this with games a lot.
It isn't enough to get RDR2 or The Witcher 3 etc.
We also have to moan that all these kiddy cartoony games don't have enough "dark" content.

We already have games with a range of emotions and tones etc etc.
Loads of games are aimed at mature audiences.
I think it's fine, probably even necessary, to have games that appeal to other audiences though.

I dunno. For me, I find it easy to look at games I'm not interested in and skip them. I don't have time to play every game out there, nor would I want to if I did.

"It's for kids" really is a bad, weak argument. I don't know about Thomas the Locomotive, but I still can enjoy the cartoons I watched as a kid 25 years ago.

- Alfred J. Kwak (parents killed, best friend becomes Hitler)
- Moomins (all sorts of dark and creepy themes)
- Digimon (themes about loss)
- all the World Star Nippon-shows like Heidi, Niklaas, Anne from Greensgable, etc.. So much real drama
- Dungeons and Dragons (lots of bonafide scary moments)
- The real Ghostbusters (too many dark moments, even scary for adult me)
- Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water (proto-Neon Genesis Evangelion running on kids tv at like 2pm, lol)
- and so on

Something can be for kids AND be dark at times. And Pokemon definitely used to have these elements. Now it doesn't.

 

[TindalosPup]

"I want a semi-realistic range of emotions in games."

Don't we already have this? There are so many games out there it seems impossible to me that a player couldn't just pick something that suits their tastes.

Surely you don't mean that EVERY game should have realistic emotions or that the fact that a game doesn't have "a semi-realistic range of emotions" is a worthy criticism?

Pokemon and Animal Crossing are terrible examples to use here because the games are built specifically to be cutesy, happy, child-friendly products.
So maybe there was once an item in the Pokedex that was "dark" or there is a Pokemon graveyard or whatever but that seems like such a weirdly specific thing to actively want in a game. Pokemon was fine but then they took out references to death and I hate it now.

I get that people don't like to hear "it's a game for kids" and get annoyed hearing that "the game is fun" but I would say that fundamentally these games are built from the ground up to be very child/beginner friendly. The intent is for a player to pick the game up and have a easy going, inoffensive, and, dare I say it, fun experience.

Gaming is a weird hobby like that.
When someone signs up for Netflix because they want to watch gripping TV dramas and action movies do they really complain because there is also content on the platform aimed at other tastes?
I love Breaking Bad but what is this fucking Thomas the Tank Engine bullshit!? Trains don't have faces and it just seems like it's aimed at kids to be honest. It should be grittier and more realistic. Maybe Thomas will trundle back home one day with a broken face and all covered in brains and entrails after some depressed office worker decided to end it all.
Maybe the Postman Pat could grab a womans ass or something. Just to make it a bit more realistic. He's just TOO much of a good guy, you know.

It seems that we do this with games a lot.
It isn't enough to get RDR2 or The Witcher 3 etc.
We also have to moan that all these kiddy cartoony games don't have enough "dark" content.

We already have games with a range of emotions and tones etc etc.
Loads of games are aimed at mature audiences.
I think it's fine, probably even necessary, to have games that appeal to other audiences though.

I dunno. For me, I find it easy to look at games I'm not interested in and skip them. I don't have time to play every game out there, nor would I want to if I did.

You're taking this to extremes that the OP didn't really intend, they aren't implying that adult themes need to be introduced, especially not to the outrageous extent you're implying. They're just saying the characters shouldn't be happy all the time, which doesn't make it unfriendly to children or beginners. Pokemon has always had dark concepts tied into the story, Hypno stole children, Banette is a stuffed animal who wants to kill it's old owner for throwing it out, Mimikyu wants to kill Pikachu, Beware is a known danger in the wild, literally hugging people to death, and there's a Pokemon graveyard or Pokemon tower where dead Pokemon are disposed of in every game (the players pokemon can never die anyway so it's literally just a dark plot device). There's dark content within Pokemon that you're overlooking just to validate the idea that criticism is bad

In addition, while people imply they target children with the game, the majority of the demographic playing/buying is adult and Game Freak usually recognizes that demographic in their advertisements and announcements. The adults who play don't want adult themes in it, it should still be child/beginner friendly if the criticism the franchise has gotten was applied. The adults that have played the games for so long just want their voice heard because they know Game Freak is capable of a better product. This is the first Pokemon title I won't be buying, and with the Pokemon Company suing leakers blaming them for the criticism they're getting, I'm ready to remove my Pikachu tattoo myself with a cheese grater.

 

[GreyHorace]

A lot of criticism is low-quality because the internet has connected us all. So there's a background static that needs to be peeled back before we can even discuss whether criticism is warranted or not.

Personally, I don't think there's enough criticism in the game industry. We still get broken games. We still get Epic Store exclusives. We still get bad mobile-game spinoffs. And we still get worthless reviews that aren't worth the server-space they're stored on. The problem is most of the criticism isn't very pointed and therefore blends into the background static mentioned above. That is one consequence of prioritizing wokeness above the ability to play a videogame: journos aren't able to competently critique their medium anymore.

Game journalists who can't play games. That's when you know the field is fucked.

I don't follow the gamesmedia that much anymore aside from Easy Allies and WhatCultureGaming on youtube, so I can't really say whether game criticism has become too soft nowadays. But as of late, the coverage of Death Stranding had a lot of the gamesmedia looking to excuse that title's obvious flaws by praising Kojima's artistic genius or some other nonsense. Sure, there've been negative reviews here and there, but for the most part people are kneeling at the altar of Kojima-sama.

As to the OP's complaint about 'happiness' in games. Jeez dude. Lighten up. There are so many games we can have the light and sweet titles along with the grimdark and angsty ones. And sometimes, there's a happy melding of the two extremes. You don't need to play them if you don't like them.

 

[Roni]

I think what matters is how insightful the feedback is.

Oh, absolutely.

But the fact is that you need to be willing to engage openly with whatever it is you're criticizing in order to build constructive criticism.

Problem is, we live in a society filled with people who grew up with an internet connection and/or social media. To those people, dropping whatever you have on your hands and going out in search of something with a better fit from the get go is much preferred to dealing with whatever ails you.

That's the reason the internet, and even NeoGAF itself, is filled with hot takes like those you mentioned. Because people are addicted to moving on to the next thing, instead of building and fostering something good they can enjoy continuously.

Case in point: Timmy!

Let's assume Timmy loves Resident Evil. There are no games coming out right now for the franchise, but there is a new Alien game coming out soon. Problem is this: Timmy would rather spend his time on Twitter complaining about how the new Alien game sucks, even though he has no plans of buying it, rather than using his time to create something cool related to Resident Evil for him, his friends and his community.

As far as I'm concerned, Timmy is an idiot. He deliberately chooses to spend time thinking about something that displeases him (desperately trying to change it, to somehow please him a little more) instead of focusing on what he naturally enjoys.

This world needs people who work for what they believe in and enjoy, not backseat drivers.

 

[Saruhashi]

Game journalists who can't play games. That's when you know the field is fucked.

Not only can they not play particularly well it just seems that they hate certain games and hate the general gaming audience in general.

I think a lot of these outlets would be better off if they had a clearer understanding of the different types of games and the different types of gamers.

They tend to just put everything under the same umbrella and it's an awful approach for such a diverse medium.

Like they will talk about "problems" in the gaming community and will cite toxic behavior in online games as proof but there are so many games that have no online component so it would be better to acknowledge that.

They just decided that the entire industry is divided into 2 groups and only 2 groups. People who agree with them (the future of gaming) and people who disagree with them (toxic gamers).

Every instance of something off message is "games need to do better".
Every instance of them getting what they want is "games are changing the world".

 

[Saber]

As much as I aways read people here or any media spamming "entitled", "its for the kids", "stop nitpicking you hater" or the classic "its fun", nothing surprises me the most that the people feeling like any kind of criticism affects their overall enjoyment. They act as if people who criticizes go to their houses, starts screaming and unplug their video-games while they're playing.

Feels like one of those terrible Kotaku articles about "buyers guilty" because of the massive negative overaction.

 

[Saruhashi]

As much as I aways read people here or any media spamming "entitled", "its for the kids", "stop nitpicking you hater" or the classic "its fun", nothing surprises me the most that the people feeling like any kind of criticism affects their overall enjoyment. They act as if people who criticizes go to their houses, starts screaming and unplug their video-games while they're playing.

Feels like one of those terrible Kotaku articles about "buyers guilty" because of the massive negative overaction.

There's a flipside to that though.
the classic "its fun"

You are complaining about people who just think a game is fun while simultaneously acting like they are the ones who care too much.
It's easily possible to make the point that people get their panties in a bunch when others are dismissive of their criticism.

Just because you make a criticism doesn't mean that it is valid or good.
Certainly criticism that is not that great can easily be ignored.
What better reason to ignore criticism of a game than "I like it though"?

For some reason people have it in their head that because they are making a criticism of something anyone who disagrees or thinks it's bullshit doesn't have a point because "you just can't handle criticism".

What if the criticism is shit?
People aren't allowed to say "nah, your criticism is rubbish the game is actually very fun"?
Criticism isn't automatically right.
Just because you make it doesn't mean that someone else can't immediately dismiss it.

Fuck, what if people just disagree?

Say I find a game that is fun to play and I enjoy playing it.
You can show up with an entire laundry list of criticisms and I can just completely ignore you.
I can say "but the game is fun and you are full of shit" but since criticism is some powerful trump card you think you're in the right?

I'm not sure what's worse.
A critic who thinks they themselves are above critique.
Or a critic who thinks their criticism must be listened to and respected and can never ever be told "nah you are talking shite".

Criticism CAN be dismissed. Rubbish criticism SHOULD be dismissed.
"The game is fun though" is a perfectly valid response to criticism.
If criticism is ignored then it's really up to the critic to just get over it, I would say.

Many people make a criticism of a game, see that criticism being dismissed and then immediately pivot to "you fanboys will defend anything".

Maybe the truth is that our opinions just aren't really worth that much in the grand scheme of things and people would much rather play a game they enjoy than fret over whether or not others agree with their critique of said game.

 

[off duty ninja]

Pokemon graveyard

Step 1: PokemonXPet Sematary mashup where each time your pokemon dies, you can bury it in the pet sematary and it will come back more powerful but with significant drawbacks as well. Like a perk system that gives you great strengths but with a powerful weakness as a counterbalance. Stephen King will consult. Nicholas Winding Refn is on to direct.

Step 2:

Step 3:

 

[Rean no Kiseki]

Contrarianism.
Not everything has to pander to your personal taste. Move on to other games or better yet take a break from video games, go hiking or something, invest in a relationship, join a gym.
That's the kind of diversity i'm all for.

 

[Saber]

There's a flipside to that though.
the classic "its fun"

You are complaining about people who just think a game is fun while simultaneously acting like they are the ones who care too much.
It's easily possible to make the point that people get their panties in a bunch when others are dismissive of their criticism.

Alright...and? When in your life you ever use that excuse to avoid any form of criticism?

Fun its not only subjective, but should never be use as an "argument" to counter any form of criticism. Dude, if I would use that stupid excuse I would be saying to most of mediocre games ever made. I find Sonic Riders fun. Do I ever go to anyone who posts criticism, spouting the worfd "its fun"? No, on the contrary. I pretty much understand the criticism. The air mechanic can be a burden that limits the player and the attack button pretty much screw the oponnents lives since it takes all your rings and therefore your level progress. Also the types can be most of times more advantajous than others.

Just because you make a criticism doesn't mean that it is valid or good.

And witch point did most of pokemon criticism weren't considered valid, hm?
The trees? Nitpcik. The rock textures? Nitpick. The limit of pokemon? Entitle. The lies about high quality models as a trade off? What lie? Exp share aways on and no challenge? It's a kids game!

The controversy of pokemon showed that any form of valid criticism is treated as if its nothing. At least when it comes to pokemon.

For some reason people have it in their head that because they are making a criticism of something anyone who disagrees or thinks it's bullshit doesn't have a point because "you just can't handle criticism".

Meawhile people goes there and generalize any form of criticism calling fans "entitled".

"The game is fun though" is a perfectly valid response to criticism.

No its not. Its a stupid response without any weight that doesn't even deserved be posted. People find fun in games for all different reasons. I find Castlevania Order of Eclesia fun, but never used that as an excuse to devoid the problems that people notice with the game. The "mana" thing can be seeing as thing that could make the game feel like a magic game of source. That don't bother me, but it's totally understandable.

Many people make a criticism of a game, see that criticism being dismissed and then immediately pivot to "you fanboys will defend anything".

The same can be said about the ones who defend basically everything. Even when the company lies or make bad business practices. But hey, shut up you entitle. The game its fun and is not for you and it sold 6 millions, I win you lose.

 

[Saruhashi]

Alright...and? When in your life you ever use that excuse to avoid any form of criticism?

Fun its not only subjective, but should never be use as an "argument" to counter any form of criticism. Dude, if I would use that stupid excuse I would be saying to most of mediocre games ever made. I find Sonic Riders fun. Do I ever go to anyone who posts criticism, spouting the worfd "its fun"? No, on the contrary. I pretty much understand the criticism. The air mechanic can be a burden that limits the player and the attack button pretty much screw the oponnents lives since it takes all your rings and therefore your level progress. Also the types can be most of times more advantajous than others.

And witch point did most of pokemon criticism weren't considered valid, hm?
The trees? Nitpcik. The rock textures? Nitpick. The limit of pokemon? Entitle. The lies about high quality models as a trade off? What lie? Exp share aways on and no challenge? It's a kids game!

The controversy of pokemon showed that any form of valid criticism is treated as if its nothing. At least when it comes to pokemon.

Meawhile people goes there and generalize any form of criticism calling fans "entitled".

No its not. Its a stupid response without any weight that doesn't even deserved be posted. People find fun in games for all different reasons. I find Castlevania Order of Eclesia fun, but never used that as an excuse to devoid the problems that people notice with the game. The "mana" thing can be seeing as thing that could make the game feel like a magic game of source. That don't bother me, but it's totally understandable.

The same can be said about the ones who defend basically everything. Even when the company lies or make bad business practices. But hey, shut up you entitle. The game its fun and is not for you and it sold 6 millions, I win you lose.

None of this matters.
My point was that just because you make a criticism that YOU think is valid doesn't mean that people can't just say "nah" and ignore it.

Trying to outright dictate how people respond to criticism IS entitled.

You're still screeching because people saw your criticisms of Pokemon and just said "nah I don't agree, I'm enjoying it".
Like what do you want them to do? Stop and respect your criticism even though they think it's irrelevant?

People can treat your criticism as if it's nothing if they want. What can you do about it?

You criticize a game. Someone says fuck that, they enjoy the game.
You start ranting about how that's so stupid and such a stupid "excuse" and how it should never be used as an argument.
So your criticisms fall on deaf ears and you now need to start pretty much demanding that people explain why they don't care about your bullshit.
That is entitled.

This frankly hilarious concept that even if you like a game you have to sit quietly and listen to the criticisms and nod and agree because we absolutely wouldn't want to just wave away criticism now, would we? Fuck that. Let people enjoy their game. If your criticism is irrelevant to them then that's the end of it. It doesn't mean they are dumb. Maybe it just means you are completely unconvincing.

Imagine not being able to handle the fact that someone likes something that you don't like and doesn't have much regard for your specific criticisms.

I never got that whole thing in gaming communities about people "defending" products.
If someone buys a product that they genuinely like and enjoy then constant criticisms are basically irrelevant because the product seems good to that person and that's kind of the end of it.

A: Hey do you like this new game?
B: Yeah it's pretty awesome, really enjoying it.
A: Well let me tell you how it's actually really bad.
B: Nah, I'm good. I think it's awesome.
A: OH MY GOD YOU PEOPLE WILL DEFEND ANYTHING.

What do people want? Actually, I'm not going to play this game I enjoy anymore cos some guy online won't stop banging on about how bad it REALLY is?

Like when I am sitting down to a nice steak or a burger I don't need some vegan ranting in my ear about this and that. I like the taste of the food.
At least with vegans there are valid ethical and environmental concerns, which I have no problem ignoring.
With videogames it's somehow even less important than all that.
The game is fun. Your criticisms are falling on deaf ears. The end.

It's not people "defending" developers. It's not people being too stupid or too ignorant. It's just people enjoying what they enjoy.

 

[OutrageousFacts]

There's a flipside to that though.
the classic "its fun"

You are complaining about people who just think a game is fun while simultaneously acting like they are the ones who care too much.
It's easily possible to make the point that people get their panties in a bunch when others are dismissive of their criticism.

Just because you make a criticism doesn't mean that it is valid or good.
Certainly criticism that is not that great can easily be ignored.
What better reason to ignore criticism of a game than "I like it though"?

For some reason people have it in their head that because they are making a criticism of something anyone who disagrees or thinks it's bullshit doesn't have a point because "you just can't handle criticism".

What if the criticism is shit?
People aren't allowed to say "nah, your criticism is rubbish the game is actually very fun"?
Criticism isn't automatically right.
Just because you make it doesn't mean that someone else can't immediately dismiss it.

Fuck, what if people just disagree?

Say I find a game that is fun to play and I enjoy playing it.
You can show up with an entire laundry list of criticisms and I can just completely ignore you.
I can say "but the game is fun and you are full of shit" but since criticism is some powerful trump card you think you're in the right?

I'm not sure what's worse.
A critic who thinks they themselves are above critique.
Or a critic who thinks their criticism must be listened to and respected and can never ever be told "nah you are talking shite".

Criticism CAN be dismissed. Rubbish criticism SHOULD be dismissed.
"The game is fun though" is a perfectly valid response to criticism.
If criticism is ignored then it's really up to the critic to just get over it, I would say.

Many people make a criticism of a game, see that criticism being dismissed and then immediately pivot to "you fanboys will defend anything".

Maybe the truth is that our opinions just aren't really worth that much in the grand scheme of things and people would much rather play a game they enjoy than fret over whether or not others agree with their critique of said game.

Then let's get concrete: Death Stranding

The criticism I've seen on Resetera and from 'journalists' (or expressed myself) consisted of:

- walking sim
- stumbling over little stones
- vehicles getting stuck
- having to balance your walking with triggers
- re-collecting all luggage manually when you fall and lose it
- a mess of story
- too many cutscenes, even for stuff like managing your base
- overall repetitive gameplay
- too long, see above

And I'll leave out how Kojima's "behavior" might have effected perception, too.
So now you have all that. And make no mistake, people went into great detail to explain themselves. The criticism was sound, well argued and easily seen in videos, too.

What happened?
"You're haters!"
"You just don't understand the game!"
"This isn't true!"
"Well, I loved it, goty!"

And with that, all criticism was dismissed. And because nowadays criticism equals harassment and 'being toxic', the fanboys were seen as the 'good' ones, while the critics were painted as gamergate/alt-right trolls. That's the level of critical discourse we have today and I hate it. I hate that only positive feedback was allowed.

And pls understand: it's fine to love Death Stranding. Go ahead and declare it your goty if you feel like that. BUT it mustn't be that the VALID criticism is dismissed and those doing the critizing be branded something terrible. If you're enjoying your game, just look the other way and be happy you got what you want.

Personally, I kept shitting on the awful Skyward Sword for years - because I'm the biggest Zelda fan. Then we got Botw, the best Zelda since OoT. I feel that's a direct result of the combined criticism that SS received. That's why criticism is important and we mustn't let it become something that is met with brandings. Negativity is good when needed. And when that is is subjective, not for anybody else to decide.

 

[Saruhashi]

Then let's get concrete: Death Stranding

The criticism I've seen on Resetera and from 'journalists' (or expressed myself) consisted of:

- walking sim
- stumbling over little stones
- vehicles getting stuck
- having to balance your walking with triggers
- re-collecting all luggage manually when you fall and lose it
- a mess of story
- too many cutscenes, even for stuff like managing your base
- overall repetitive gameplay
- too long, see above

And I'll leave out how Kojima's "behavior" might have effected perception, too.
So now you have all that. And make no mistake, people went into great detail to explain themselves. The criticism was sound, well argued and easily seen in videos, too.

What happened?
"You're haters!"
"You just don't understand the game!"
"This isn't true!"
"Well, I loved it, got!"

And with, all criticism was dismissed. And because nowadays criticism equals harassment and 'being toxic', the fanboys were seen as the 'good' ones, while the critics were painted as gamergate/alt-right trolls. That's the level of critical discourse we have today and I hate it. I hate that only positive feedback was allowed.

And pls understand: it's fine to love Death Stranding. Go ahead and declare it your goty if you feel like that. BUT it mustn't be that the VALID criticism is dismissed and those doing the critizing be branded something terrible. If you're enjoying your game, just look the other way and be happy you got what you want.

Personally, I kept shitting on the awful Skyward Sword for years - because I'm the biggest Zelda fan. Then we got Botw, the best Zelda since OoT. I feel that's a direct result of the combined criticism that SS received. That's why criticism is important and we mustn't let it become something that is met with brandings. Negativity is good when needed. And when that is is subjective, not for anybody else to decide.

The criticism is only VALID to the extent that you believe it's valid.

One of the things I frequently saw in the Death Stranding conversation was a strange number of brand new accounts coming on to trash the game. That's weird.

Another thing is people who think that if they lay it all out in a rational way then others will say "actually you are right, I was enjoying the game but you've convinced me, it sucks now".

Like, you aren't going to brute force through this idea that a game is rubbish when you have loads of people playing it and enjoying it. It's a total waste of time and effort.

I can dismiss whatever criticism I want, when I want, however I want.
I don't know what we are holding "CRITICISM" up as this unassailable thing that must be respected and given credence no matter what.

I am perfectly fine with dismissing criticism of Death Stranding because I like the game.
It's not like there is some life and death scenario where if I don't acknowledge the games supposed failings there will be some severe consequences.
I was curious about the game, I bought the game, I enjoyed the game. Now I move on to the next one.

I don't need to acknowledge or engage with or agree with shit. I liked the game. The End.

Does it mean I never get heated about anything? No.
I have plenty of media that I fucking hate and I am prepared to rant about BUT if someone else likes that stuff? Meh.
At a certain point you just realize that while it's good to be passionate about things there are people who just don't care and they wont be shy about telling you.
So I've been on the opposite side of that equation. Explaining to someone why I think the movie or game they like actually sucks and guess what? If they actually like it then you are not going to overcome that. You're not going to just keep hammering on your "valid" points until you change their mind. More than likely they will just say "I enjoyed it so I don't really care about your list of gripes".

Those Mr Plinkett Star Wars reviews are great. However there are many, many, people out there who will be like "fuck all that shit, is the movie good or not".

Death Stranding
- walking sim - I disagree
- stumbling over little stones - non issue for me
- vehicles getting stuck - non issue for me
- having to balance your walking with triggers - non issue for me
- re-collecting all luggage manually when you fall and lose it - maybe don't fall and lose your luggage then? maybe use the triggers and watch where you are walking.
- a mess of story - I disagree
- too many cutscenes, even for stuff like managing your base - non issue for me
- overall repetitive gameplay - I disagree
- too long, see above - I disagree

So, now, given all of that if you then think you can argue back and somehow strong-arm me into agreeing with your criticisms then obviously my next reaction is going to be "please stop now". I've already dismissed your criticisms and if you have no new arguments then we are done.

Keep on going at it then, yeah, it's toxic it's annoying and it's not going to change my mind.

Who decided that valid criticism mustn't be dismissed? Fuck that. I'll dismiss whatever I want.
If a game is good I'll say it's good. If I don't agree with criticisms I'll dismiss them in whichever manner I see fit.

If I think the game is fun but you think it's got a hundred issues and I don't care about any of them? Well, sucks to be you, I guess. I'll just be enjoying my game.

 

[Saber]

None of this matters.
My point was that just because you make a criticism that YOU think is valid doesn't mean that people can't just say "nah" and ignore it.

Trying to outright dictate how people respond to criticism IS entitled.

You're still screeching because people saw your criticisms of Pokemon and just said "nah I don't agree, I'm enjoying it".
Like what do you want them to do? Stop and respect your criticism even though they think it's irrelevant?

That bring us to the point that surprises me the most. You guys felt like any form of criticism exists to devoid all the fun you guys have enjoying the game(which btw if it isn't clear, having fun was never a problem). If you guys are more interested in use that any word any time a discussion about the bad aspects of the game comes, then maybe the problem is with you?

People can treat your criticism as if it's nothing if they want. What can you do about it?

Me? Lol
Calm down dude. The point here is nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing. The point is "its fun" using to shut down about every form of criticism. You can counter-argument using other responses you know.

You start ranting about how that's so stupid and such a stupid "excuse" and how it should never be used as an argument.

See at what point I'm getting? I provided you reasons for why fun should not be used and now its called ranting. If anything, it proves the entire point of OP. Since I'm against the game you like, I'm obviously ranting.

So your criticisms fall on deaf ears and you now need to start pretty much demanding that people explain why they don't care about your bullshit.
That is entitled.

If fall deaf ears its because of attitudes like that. I'm not demanding anything lol
Just saying that using fun as a counter-argument its lame. One could use better reasonings other than "itz fun". I for one doesn't use it...I mean, whats fun for me its probably not fun for you or even my brother.

This frankly hilarious concept that even if you like a game you have to sit quietly and listen to the criticisms and nod and agree because we absolutely wouldn't want to just wave away criticism now, would we? Fuck that.

Its hilarious really. But not because people have to sit down and listen, although it would be smart to listen what people said to at least try to understand to other side other than spam "entitle".
You can ignore all, really. Go play the game you like. No one here is going to go into your house and say "stop having fun". The funny thing is behaviour like that, as if the criticism is taking as a personnal insult.

Let people enjoy their game. If your criticism is irrelevant to them then that's the end of it. It doesn't mean they are dumb. Maybe it just means you are completely unconvincing.

I'm not the one here spamming to others that they're wrong because its something I like. Repeating again, don't take the criticism personnal.

Imagine not being able to handle the fact that someone likes something that you don't like and doesn't have much regard for your specific criticisms.

And imagine having to say to every criticism "I'm enjoying I don't care", as if its a way to make peace to yourself?
Or better yet, imagine not being able to handle the fact that just because you like doesn't make the bad aspects of the game go away? Accepting is the first step for the cure.

I never got that whole thing in gaming communities about people "defending" products.

You never get it or never cared?
Even the games that I give the most praise I have things to critic about it. Does it make me hater? No.

I and most of people do this because they care. They like the game and want the better for it, they want to improve it.

 

[Roni]

The criticism was sound, well argued and easily seen in videos, too.

Half of the points you made are core mechanics explained in the first 2 hours of gameplay and the other half is par for the course in a Kojima game. How's that sound, well-argued criticism?

In other words... If you played Death Stranding and paid attention to the game, half those problems go away. And if you've ever played a Kojima game before, the other half is immediately clear and sort of half-expected.

Doesn't sound like valid criticism to me... Sounds like looking for an excuse to trash games that you don't understand or appreciate.

 

[OutrageousFacts]

I can dismiss whatever criticism I want, when I want, however I want.
I don't know what we are holding "CRITICISM" up as this unassailable thing that must be respected and given credence no matter what.

I am perfectly fine with dismissing criticism of Death Stranding because I like the game.

*You* can dismiss criticism for your own experience. That you can do.

What you can't do is to dismiss other people's criticism and paint these people as hater, liars, harassers and worse. That's the whole point. But that's what happened in the wake of Death Stranding. It was the worst.