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[VGEsoterica]

I mean it's not like we dont have OTHER ways to play Vice City but considering GTA 3 has already been ported to Dreamcast as it was supposed to launch on that console...why not have GTA: Vice City along for the ride! Further proof that Dreamcast would 100% do what PS2 could do and in some instances perform more impressively than PS2

Def still a dev alpha that the devs were nice enough to let me preview but if their successes with GTA 3 are any sign of the final product...we are in for an amazing port of Vice City to Dreamcast that might even exceed what PS2 could do

 

[squidilix]

Further proof that Dreamcast would 100% do what PS2

For the last time, this isn't a PC port to Dreamcast, but reVC (or re3) on Dreamcast.
This is a decompiled version of GTA 3 and VC. It has been optimized to run BETTER than the official PC version. (More than 200+ fps than the official PC port.)

These versions run on the 3DS, and even better on older PC hardware that supposedly "badly" runs GTA 3/VC.

Using these versions as a stupid benchmark between the Dreamcast and the PS2 is stupid. It's almost certain that re3/reVC run better on the PS2 than the official version.
Also, Vice City Stories and Liberty City Stories looks better on PSP. So PSP is more power than PS2? (Oh wait, this game already existe on PS2)

 

[Lysandros]

Further proof that Dreamcast would 100% do what PS2 could do and in some instances perform more impressively than PS2

You can't possibly say this in terms for general technical capabilities right? Not in the sense of Dreamcast could do MGS2 or Gran Turismo 3 etc. at close, same or better fidelity surely?

 

[Unknown?]

Pretty cool! I bet with modern techniques, they could port the Xbox version to PS2 next.

 

[Lysandros]

Pretty cool! I bet with modern techniques, they could port the Xbox version to PS2 next.

They couldn't, PS2 is the only console in the world which is permanently frozen in time. Nothing can be done to achieve better results on it. In contrast Dreamcast is a expert time traveler, it will continue to evolve until the end of time.

 

[NeverYouMind]

I never thought playing Vice City on Dreamcast hardware would be a reality. I wonder if it has the smoke bombs and weapon names from original release (and uncensored gang warfare)?

 

[Sephimoth]

Looking forward to playing GTA5 on Dreamcast next.

Seriously though, cool stuff. Would be great to eventually get San Andreas, if not then Lib and Vice City Stories ported over.

 

[The Lunch Legend]

 

[Esppiral]

For the last time, this isn't a PC port to Dreamcast, but reVC (or re3) on Dreamcast.
This is a decompiled version of GTA 3 and VC. It has been optimized to run BETTER than the official PC version. (More than 200+ fps than the official PC port.)

These versions run on the 3DS, and even better on older PC hardware that supposedly "badly" runs GTA 3/VC.

Using these versions as a stupid benchmark between the Dreamcast and the PS2 is stupid. It's almost certain that re3/reVC run better on the PS2 than the official version.
Also, Vice City Stories and Liberty City Stories looks better on PSP. So PSP is more power than PS2? (Oh wait, this game already existe on PS2)

You don't know what you are talking about

 

[Skifi28]

Further proof that Dreamcast would 100% do what PS2 could do

I'm not sure that comparing ports 20 years apart is proof of anything. Almost any game can run on anything in theory. The question is, could the team that made GTA3 at the time make a proper Dreamcast version? Considering how badly GTA3 runs on PS2 despite how simplistic it is when compared to later games, San Andreas would have also been impossible on the PS2, but it ran anyway after years of developer experience and optimisation. I think "at the time" is the key word.

 

[nkarafo]

Further proof that Dreamcast would 100% do what PS2 could do and in some instances perform more impressively than PS2

Wake me up when San Andreas, Shadow of Colossus and God of War 2 runs on DC with the same visuals/performance.

 

[consoul]

It's very cool to see GTA3 and Vice City on DC, but doesn't change the fact that Dreamcast and PS2 both had their strengths and weaknesses.

Code Veronica: Complete on Dreamcast in 480p beats Code Veronica X on PS2 hands down. They're both very capable hardware, and they differ enough that they're not directly comparable.

While PS2 clearly won the generation, Dreamcast's hardware capability wasn't the reason Sega lost.

 

[Esppiral]

Wake me up when San Andreas, Shadow of Colossus and God of War 2 runs on DC with the same visuals/performance.

At 7 fps?.

This is not to say the DC is more powerful, it isn't, is to prove that it could have hold its own if it lasted.

 

[Puscifer]

I never thought playing Vice City on Dreamcast hardware would be a reality. I wonder if it has the smoke bombs and weapon names from original release (and uncensored gang warfare)?

Gang Warfare was censored? I know about the Kill all Haitians line but was there more?

 

[SomeGit]

These versions run on the 3DS, and even better on older PC hardware that supposedly "badly" runs GTA 3/VC.

Why do you keep parroting this, the recompilation uses a new openGL ES or D3D9 renderer. It won’t even run on high end 2002 hardware let alone lower end or older. And have you seen how it “runs” on 3DS?

We have a port of this codebase to the PS2 and it runs terribly, it’s not a magically better codebase than the original, the only performance you get vs the pc original is on newer multicore systems and post Vista OSes.

 

[AJUMP23]

Dreamcast is a powerful machine. It lost due to PS2 marketing. Convinced people to wait.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Gang Warfare was censored? I know about the Kill all Haitians line but was there more?

Yes. There are many lines targeting Cuban and Haitian gangs or talking about them in a derogative manner in UI, dialogue, and cutscenes that were cut from the 1.03+ versions.

 

[Kilau]

I love how these threads reignite the PS2 versus DC console war lol.

I will say, as a 9/9/99 DC owner…

 

[NeverYouMind]

I love how these threads reignite the PS2 versus DC console war lol.

I will say, as a 9/9/99 DC owner…

It was never a war. Sega retreated before Sony entered the battlefield in that generation.

 

[Lysandros]

Dreamcast is a powerful machine. It lost due to PS2 marketing. Convinced people to wait.

It sure was a powerful machine for the end of 1998. But ultimately in a direct comparison with PS2 it was about half as powerful 'at best'. Specs are the specs, It simply couldn't compete with PS2's best offerings in the long term, it didn't have the compute, bandwidth and memory etc. to do so. It was a easier machine to develop games for with less complicated architecture thought, this gave it some initial advantages which honestly didn't last that long.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I mean it's not like we dont have OTHER ways to play Vice City but considering GTA 3 has already been ported to Dreamcast as it was supposed to launch on that console...why not have GTA: Vice City along for the ride! Further proof that Dreamcast would 100% do what PS2 could do and in some instances perform more impressively than PS2

Def still a dev alpha that the devs were nice enough to let me preview but if their successes with GTA 3 are any sign of the final product...we are in for an amazing port of Vice City to Dreamcast that might even exceed what PS2 could do

Respectfully, nah.

Like, it's cool seeing all these hobbyist Dreamcast ports, but there are two massive caveats to keep in mind with them.

1: Most of these hobbyists have a soft spot for underdog systems, which would include Dreamcast. So they're going to hyper-focus their efforts into pushing those systems feeling that they were ignored by devs in the day. But this also suggests that systems like PS2 were fully tapped out, which isn't true either. And we know this because a LOT of games that gen used RenderWare which had some hefty performance penalties in exchange for making game dev much easier (and code more portable).

2: Many of these hobbyists are leveraging newly-discovered/revealed information and modern programming efficiencies (more efficient toolchains, for example) that simply DID NOT EXIST back when these console were commercial products. Or, if they did exist, they were not commercially viable either because it took too much effort (time & money) to leverage them, and/or development timetables did not allow them (these devs had to constantly hit milestones every few months for progress, usually to continue getting funding). So, they're benefiting from technological advances and applying them to bolstering the profile of underdog systems from older gens, resulting is major performance gains and breakthroughs.

On paper, it makes those systems look a lot closer to the mainstream market leaders in terms of overall performance, but it IMO also exposes blind spots with some of these hobbyists. Again, they are applying a lot of hindsight in active developments for older systems, utilizing information & technological efficiencies that were nonexistent back in the day. This even pops up in unexpected areas.

For example, typical JPEG compression algorithms today are magnitudes more efficient than compression algorithms in the early '00s. So if you're re-compressing and optimizing textures for a Dreamcast homebrew title and those textures are in JPEG format, you're going to get compression efficiencies you would not have gotten in 2005 or 2000, simply because bog-standard JPEG compression algorithms are much better these days.

So, yeah, I'm of course very excited to see how this and other project efforts go for Dreamcast (and maybe other systems), but those are two massive caveats I feel need to always be kept in mind.

Yes. There are many lines targeting Cuban and Haitian gangs or talking about them in a derogative manner in UI, dialogue, and cutscenes that were cut from the 1.03+ versions.

A sea of completely unnecessary changes that only ruined otherwise good dialog. You can't even tell who they're referring to with the Definitive version. Trash

 

[NeverYouMind]

A sea of completely unnecessary changes that only ruined otherwise good dialog. You can't even tell who they're referring to with the Definitive version. Trash

Those changes were present in every release after Double Pack for Xbox. It was part of the trilogy collections on PS2 and Xbox too.

->

...

 

[snapdragon]

They couldn't, PS2 is the only console in the world which is permanently frozen in time. Nothing can be done to achieve better results on it. In contrast Dreamcast is a expert time traveler, it will continue to evolve until the end of time.

The PS2 was supported until 2014 and had the backing of the entire industry behind it, these are not comparable at all, the ps2 is more likely to have reached its potential already than the DC

 

[bender]

I blame Sonic for the Dreamcast not fully realizing its' potential.

 

[nkarafo]

At 7 fps?.

This is not to say the DC is more powerful, it isn't, is to prove that it could have hold its own if it lasted.

I agree, it would.

But the hyperbolic OP says "Further proof that Dreamcast would 100% do what PS2 could do and in some instances perform more impressively than PS2". Which indicates way more than "hold its own".

I guess i shouldn't expect better from VGEsoterica, the guy makes plenty of clickbait and misleading titles with some of his Youtube videos.

The PS2 was supported until 2014 and had the backing of the entire industry behind it, these are not comparable at all, the ps2 is more likely to have reached its potential already than the DC

The PS2 was also notoriously difficult to program for, unlike the Dreamcast which was made to be easier and more straightforward, as a remedy for their previous Saturn console.

You also forget how modern homebrew tools and knowledge are far superior than what the industry had back then. You see this in most modern games for old consoles, they either reach or exceed the best looking games of the past.

 

[Lysandros]

The PS2 was supported until 2014 and had the backing of the entire industry behind it, these are not comparable at all, the ps2 is more likely to have reached its potential already than the DC

Which system had a more complex architecture making it harder to reach its full potential? And 2014? Can you give a few examples which aren't sports games? While at it, in which ways those were graphically more evolved than games released in lets say 2008? Late in its years the machine was so massively popular that most developers didn't need to impress with graphic evolution anymore, why to spend additional time/effort/money to wrestle with complexity when what they already had was enough and assured to sell?

 

[Esppiral]

I agree, it would.

But the hyperbolic OP says "Further proof that Dreamcast would 100% do what PS2 could do and in some instances perform more impressively than PS2". Which indicates way more than "hold its own".

I guess i shouldn't expect better from VGEsoterica, the guy makes plenty of clickbait and misleading titles with some of his Youtube videos.



The PS2 was also notoriously difficult to program for, unlike the Dreamcast which was made to be easier and more straightforward, as a remedy for their previous Saturn console.

You also forget how modern homebrew tools and knowledge are far superior than what the industry had back then. You see this in most modern games for old consoles, they either reach or exceed the best looking games of the past.

Easy to develop for= easy to get things up and running.

Easy to develop for ≠ easy to squeeze all the potential.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Those changes were present in every release after Double Pack for Xbox. It was part of the trilogy collections on PS2 and Xbox too.

->

...

Oh that's mega ouch. I haven't touched OG Vice City in a hot minute, but I don't recall any dialog in it that was any more 'edgy' than, say, a Tarantino film. And these were games for mature audiences, first and foremost.

The changes just feel like an instance of publishers not respecting games as an art form or trusting the maturity of intended audience. They should've at least given options for the original dialog in subsequent re-releases IMO.

The PS2 was supported until 2014 and had the backing of the entire industry behind it, these are not comparable at all, the ps2 is more likely to have reached its potential already than the DC

1: A vast majority of PS2 games (particularly Western releases) utilized RenderWare, which had performance penalties in return for ease-of-development (and code portability)

2: Virtually all major studios stopped prioritizing PS2 for AAA development by late 2006; vast majority of games released afterwards were budget AA, annual rehashed sports releases (with updated rosters and little more), or shovelware i.e Barbie Barn Adventure games. Not the type of titles that are gonna push the limits of hardware :/

3: Even among the Japanese devs with proprietary engines that gen, a good number of them shifted away from PS2 by 2006 to focus on HD game development for PS3 & 360. So you can't necessarily say all of those engines were fully tapped on the PS2.

And, at the end of the day, while Dreamcast does have more room to reach for a ceiling than PS2 due to the market realities around both consoles, the chances any homebrew, 100% to-the-metal optimized Dreamcast game with a AAA focus would matching the best of PS2 is quite low. The performance & fidelity of peak latter-era PS2 titles like Gran Turismo 4, Devil May Cry 3, Rogue Galaxy, Final Fantasy 12, Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid 3, or God of War 2 (among others), just wouldn't be possible on Dreamcast without some big changes.

Even so, I bet a lot of those games could have been further optimized on PS2 if time constraints & budget weren't a concern. If modern tool efficiencies and programming concepts were applied, we could probably get a decent performance uplift even on those aforementioned titles, to push PS2 a bit further.

As for Dreamcast, we probably would've gotten some stuff a bit closer to GT3, Zone of the Enders/MGS and original Kingdom Hearts if Dreamcast were pushed to 100% with fully optimized games in its heyday. But I'm not sure if such results would've been around at the same time as those games (maybe they'd be a bit later), and in areas of lighting and particle effects as well as certain geometry density, the Dreamcast equivalents would be scaled back compared to those PS2 games anyhow (or implement clever workarounds working with Dreamcast's strengths).

 

[NeverYouMind]

Oh that's mega ouch. I haven't touched OG Vice City in a hot minute, but I don't recall any dialog in it that was any more 'edgy' than, say, a Tarantino film. And these were games for mature audiences, first and foremost.

The changes just feel like an instance of publishers not respecting games as an art form or trusting the maturity of intended audience. They should've at least given options for the original dialog in subsequent re-releases IMO.

Rockstar quickly buckled when the Haitian-American Coalition of Palm Beach County filed a lawsuit. The group even wanted an injunction and recall of existing copies, which did not happen. Still, the end result would have been better if developers at least modified the dialogue and cutscenes instead of just cutting chunks out sloppily.

 

[FF:Enhanced_Reality]

The PS2 was also notoriously difficult to program for, unlike the Dreamcast which was made to be easier and more straightforward, as a remedy for their previous Saturn console.

I don't agree with this statement. I think you're going over the top a bit with notoriously difficult part. Yes, it was a more difficult than programming for than the original PlayStation but much much less than say the Atari Jaguar or SEGA Saturn. It's a different way of thinking for sure, but when dev's got to grips with the tech, especially the super fast RAM in the GPU, it was a different story. The PS2 was a fill rate monster. The PS1 used Assembly or C to develop for and floating point operations had no hardware support.

PlayStation 2 was just a part of the next generation of technology. Once you had some experience and wrote some documentation for it, it was great. You were parallel programming, there was the move from C to C++ - code was very different but C++ introduced a lot of capabilities and new ways of thinking.

So whilst I agree that the Dreamcast was very simple to develop for - and it was one of the design philosophies of the system - the PS2 wasn't notoriously difficult to program for. If you said, PS3, I'd agree. It took tools like SPURS to drastically improve the user friendliness of programming for it.

 

[Lysandros]

I don't agree with this statement. I think you're going over the top a bit with notoriously difficult part. Yes, it was a more difficult than programming for than the original PlayStation but much much less than say the Atari Jaguar or SEGA Saturn. It's a different way of thinking for sure, but when dev's got to grips with the tech, especially the super fast RAM in the GPU, it was a different story. The PS2 was a fill rate monster. The PS1 used Assembly or C to develop for and floating point operations had no hardware support.

PlayStation 2 was just a part of the next generation of technology. Once you had some experience and wrote some documentation for it, it was great. You were parallel programming, there was the move from C to C++ - code was very different but C++ introduced a lot of capabilities and new ways of thinking.

So whilst I agree that the Dreamcast was very simple to develop for - and it was one of the design philosophies of the system - the PS2 wasn't notoriously difficult to program for. If you said, PS3, I'd agree. It took tools like SPURS to drastically improve the user friendliness of programming for it.

PS2 was a notoriously difficult system to program for in the sense of abundance developer comments sharing the same sentiments, that is not an exaggeration. That was all you will be hearing in the gaming magazines of the time. That was widely known, commented on and even complained about. I don't recall the exact specifics but one of them (might be someone from Polyphony Digital, not sure) later said something along the lines of "even though PS3 is quite difficult to program for, it's still a walk in the park compared to developing for PS2." It was without a doubt the most complicated system of that generation by a fair margin.