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[ashecitism]

It's been getting more and more tiresome seeing people describe Overwatch as a MOBA, or how Gigantic and Fortnite are competitors, or how Battleborn is ripping off Overwatch and etc, just because people look at the surface. And sure, on the surface they all have bad, bland titles and mostly colorful, cartoony art style, characters.

I've been guilty of using "hero shooter" in previous threads, and I get why it's a thing. I think it's an easy way of describing it (well, because they're hero-based), but it's also very flawed, because the games grouped into it are not that similar gameplay wise.

Also, people like to group MOBAs in this, just because they're from a different perspective compared to the isometric norm. And people like to label some as MOBAs, just because they have a big cast with their own abilities and art style similar to them.

So, this thread is to look at what titles are considered "hero shooter"/FPS MOBA and the difference between them.

First let's look at what a MOBA is in short:

Spoiler

A shitty genre name invented by Riot, that's what.

A competitive team game, usually 5v5 (Smite has a 3v3 mode). One map, two bases that needs to be destroyed. Several lanes (usually 3) connecting these bases with towers along them. Players play as heroes, which have their roles and abilities and ultimates and they level throughout the game and there are items which are used to build those heroes further. There are creeps or minions that go from one base to another, attacking the towers and the enemy on the way. Jungles which have neutral creeps and heroes can farm them. And more. Heroes with abilities alone don't make a MOBA. If that were the case class-based shooters and fighters could be classified as such. It's made of several parts then there's the ever-changing metagame due to the balancing.

So enter this new upcoming trend of hero shooter, or sometimes called FPS MOBA or MOBA shooters. It's like class-based shooters amped up to 11. The regular stock cast gets expanded, they actually get names and such, more characters for each class, hell, the lines between classes can be blurred. Then they get special abilities. Some can use leveling, items. Modes can be familiar to FPS fans or something closer to MOBAs with maps using lanes, creeps etc. From the listed below some are closer to TF2, some to MOBAs, some are straight up MOBAs, some are neither, but are grouped here.

Here's a post from a previous hero shooter thread, which I think does a good job explaining why this is a thing now:

I think it's to take the idea of having different classes, but blowing it up to the full potential, as TF2 was somewhat in the middle of of normal "fps with 4-5 classes" and "fps with more roles and with more differentiation".
It's about saying: Why only 9 characters? Why not 25, 30, 40? Why not have characters that play really different from all the others? Imagine have all in the same game melee characters, spy characters, support characters, pure shooter characters, ability based characters, etc.


Basically it isn't about making a MOBA in the shape of a FPS, but taking the lessons learned from mobas and applying them to new genres, like FPS. Because moba's huge success isn't casual, there are lessons to learn:

-It makes more sense to put more efforts in different characters with different play styles and only a handful of maps than in having only 4 typical classes (soldier, engineer, support, sniper!) and a lot of maps. In the end, more characters give more playtime more efficiently than having more maps.
-Having lots of players in a team makes you unimportant, and teamwork is almost impossible. And having too few will make some tactics impossible to execute. A good number for the game is 5vs5 to 7vs7. Enough to make possible characters synergies and do some flanking and other tactics, but no more.
-People aren't as stupid as some big game companies believe. They can deal with all you have to know in LoL or Dota2, which isn't little. Put some complexity in there in your game.
-There are more ways of playing a game than "single player", "coop", "pvp". You can mix AI and players in a game, for example.
-Death matters, and that can be worth it. The traditional FPS are played a bit like a headless chicken, running and gunning, dying, then respawning and starting all over again. But put a system where your death gives xp/money to the opponent, and suddenly there is an incredible tension while you play.


I can't be surprised so many companies are thinking in the same ideas, as I thought the same. A pair of years ago when I started getting pretty into Smite, and finally discovered what's so good about MOBAs, I started to think why some of these features couldn't be done in a genre that I like playing more... like fps.
They thought the same.

I think some could even argue fighters also had influence on this. A big, varied roster with more focus on the characters and balancing instead of maps.


Now let's look at the upcoming titles. I try to go in the order of announcements:

Fortnite

Yes, this still exists. Been in closed alpha and NDAd for some time. This doesn't even fit here, but I see it pop up from time to time. It's a 3rd person co-op game where you defend bases against hordes of monsters and you can build stuff, fortify your bases. There are different type of characters. F2P?

Dirty Bomb

Gameplay wise this is what Splash Damage have been doing since Enemy Territory. A class-based team-based objective-based (main ones are multi-staged) FPS. You have mercenaries. There are 4 main classes and in them several different mercenaries with their own abilities (it's usually 2, no ultimates). Think of stuff like medpacks, grenades, turrets, AoE damage, nothing too flashy and out of the ordinary. In the main modes you have big maps, where as the attackers you have to go through several objectives in a linear fashion. Currently in open beta (at least I haven't seen them do a launch event or anythingin these last months after open beta started). F2P.

Gigantic

Motiga calls it a shooter MOBA. It's 3rd person. Haven't seen much of, it's also in closed beta and under NDA. The big thing seems to be having big guardians, which you charge up and when charged they go on the attack. Then you can kill the enemy's guardian. Also, no creeps and towers. F2P.

BattleCry

From what I saw it's 3rd person and melee focused. No idea about objectives or abilites. We might not even see it anymore, considering Zenimax said not long ago they're having concerns about it and are evaluating it. F2P?

BattleBorn

Battleborn is: FPS; hobby-grade coop campaign; genre-blend...nope can't do this

Anyways, the heroes have abilities (including one ultimate). It has several MP modes. One is regular control point, the other two has creeps. One of them has bases, which the teams need to destroy, the other has you guiding the creeps to a certain place and getting points for that.

Also, it's the only one out of these to have an SP/Co-op campaign. Nirolak doesn't seem to be convinced it's a proper story based campaign, just missions based on MP? I'm sure I saw a short co-op footage where they beat a boss, but I can't find that footage There was an online test under NDA. Launching next May. $60.

Overwatch

When it was announced and even after, it was not MOBAs people likened this to, but TF2. Just like that it has control point and payload game modes. And it also has a colorful cast, however it's much bigger and each character has their own abilities including one ultimate (which you need to charge up first). Had a closed beta. Launching next June. $40-$60 on PC, $60 on consoles.

LawBreakers

Haven't seen much, at PAX it was behind doors and under NDA. FPS. There are two factions, law and breakers. It's mostly focused on shooting, movement and verticality. you have a brute that can rocket jump, Kitsune who can grapple from one place to another etc The characters do have their own abilities, we just need to see more. Also, Cliffy doesn't like to think of them as heroes, but halfway through class-based characters and MOBA characters. The game mode they talked about has teams battling for one battery, which you have to take back to your base and charge it to 100%. F2P.

Paladins

Hi-Rez's next game after Smite (3rd person MOBA). First person. From what I saw rather projectile based shooting. Characters have abilities (no ultimates) and there's a card system, where after leveling up you can choose from different cards that give you different buffs. The current mode is you have to capture one point, which spawns a siege engine, which goes to the enemy base and starts attacking its gates. There are two gates and a vault which has to be destroyed. If the engine is destroyed it can be spawned in one of 3 points (that changes). There are also mounts, you can ride horses. Currently in closed (invite and paid) beta. F2P.

Paragon

3rd person MOBA. We saw some glimpse of gameplay. There's a card system, but we need to know more. Online tests will begin soon, in January. Then paid beta in spring, open beta in summer. F2P.


This turned out longer than planned. The thing is, just because they have several characters/heroes with their own abilities, doesn't mean the gameplay is similar and it also doesn't mean they're MOBAs.

So

Overwatch is not a MOBA. Having characters with abilities won't make it that. It's more TF2, even with the added abilities and ultimates. Gigantic and Fortnite aren't competitors, because the former is a 3rd person MOBA, the latter is a a co-op horde mode building game. Battleborn isn't ripping Overwatch off, because it has its own modes closer to a MOBA, while Overwatch's are closer to TF2.

Paragon is a MOBA. Doesn't matter if 3rd person, that doesn't make it the same as Overwatch. It's in the same group as Smite. Gigantic with its thing could be put in the same group I guess.

Fortnite is its own thing. BattleCry might not even be a thing soon. Dirty Bomb is a military type class-based shooter with more characters per class. LawBreakers we need to see more, but it's class-based arena type shooter. Paladins ..they're making lots of changes and there's only 1 mode so far... some might put it in the TF2/Overwatch group or maybe in its own for now. Battleborn is: FPS; hobby-grade .... whatever.

edit: I didn't think anyone else would have the same idea today, so didn't search for a thread. Turns out Kalentan did have the same idea. Asked himn what to do, he said this is fine to stay as this has posts and considers this more detailed. Regardless I quote some of his OP here

Now what is a Hero Shooter?

A Hero Shooter in many ways is the child of Class based shooters and MOBAs. Rather than merely having general classes, these shooters have specific characters that usually have a specific weapon for that character. They also will have abilites and an ultimate, which is very similar to MOBA's. Like a MOBA it usually focuses on teamwork, however it still is a shooter and thus it has many shooter tropes.

Now what makes them different?

Well in Hero Shooters, typically there is no item building or leveling that goes on as the match progresses, rather your character will be the same at the start as at the end. Hero Shooters also typically have multiple game modes per map, whereas MOBA's typically have unique maps per game mode. There is also most likely no minions of any sort, nor any lanes for which characters are expected to go based on their roles. However like any class-based game, Heros do have roles they play, just not lanes on which to go to based on said role.

What are some upcoming games are Hero Shooters?
Overwatch
Paladins

What are some upcoming games are MOBAs?
Paragon

Unknown:
Battleborn
Gigantic

You're probably wondering why I put Battleborn and Giganitc into an unknown category. That is because they do have elements of MOBA's that aren't in Hero shooters but then also share elements of Hero-shooters that aren't in MOBAS.

Battleborn does have a game mode that is like the main game mode in League of Legends, Smite, Dota, and HoTS, but is actually PvE. (Another big difference in Battleborn is it's PvE stuff.)

Gigantic seems to have it's main mode as something similar to other established MOBAs in that you must destroy the enemies guardian. But it also has domination-like key points to capture and ends with a climatic battle in the center rather than fighting towards one base and taking out their guardian there. It also doesn't seem to have any lane-based gameplay that MOBA's do.

Thus these differences may make their games play far different to a MOBA and more like a Hero-shooter with objectives. (It's also muddled since they both don't feature just shooting characters but also ones that are dedicated to melee and such.)

Now it should be noted that there are games with hero-like elements but aren't either of these. Such recent games as:
Black Ops 3
Rainbow Six Siege

While both have characters that have something unique about them, in Black Ops 3 cases, the only difference between characters is their ultimate and in Rainbow Six Siege, characters due have some unqiue perks, abilties, and equipment. But the biggest difference is that in Hero Shooters, the characters feel distinct from one another. Wheras in Black Ops 3 and Rainbow Six Siege, while the characters may have some unique aspects, they still play in a very similar manner to one another.

 

[oc]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1134485

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1153061

 

[Skux]

Thanks for this thread. We're seeing a lot of hybridisation right now which is really exciting. MOBA elements are making their way into shooters, as well as the light-RPG concepts they bring.

Also, everything has fucking "cards" lol. They aren't even cards!

 

[ashecitism]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1134485

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1153061

The first one is not really relevant, because it doesn't go into the difference between them. The second one though...didn't think someone else would have the same idea today, so didn't search for a thread lol.

 

[Warxard]

This thread should be linked all the time when people throw around the moba word

 

[WaterAstro]

People actually mix up games as MOBA?

No base, no creep wave, not MOBA. Simple.

 

[ashecitism]

Don't want Kalentan's effort go to waste, so might ask for a merge. He was first.

People actually mix up games as MOBA?

No base, no creep wave, not MOBA. Simple.

As I say in the OP, recently Overwatch.

 

[Vex_]

I dont know what analysis team told these publishers this was the next big thing, but they are in for a rude awakening (at least on consoles).

No one is going to stick around for long on these "hero shooters". Especially since the market is already flooded with them now before one even launches (on consoles). Now they have to try to dodge each others releases to not get people confused over BattleWatch and FortBorne.

Spoiler

On the other hand, I could be wrong and Overwatch becomes the next break away success like cod4 was to consoles.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

I think this thread's needed and appreciate it. I still see people mentioning Nosgoth as a MOBA and I can never tell if they're just ignorant about the game itself, or the MOBA genre as a whole.

 

[Onivulk]

Hopefully the tight competition brings us some high quality games. Currently, Overwatch and Paragon have my attention.

 

[ashecitism]

Kalentan said he's okay with this staying.

I dont know what analysis team told these publishers this was the next big thing, but they are in for a rude awakening (at least on consoles).

No one is going to stick around for long on these "hero shooters". Especially since the market is already flooded with them now before one even launches (on consoles). Now they have to try to dodge each others releases to not get people confused over BattleWatch and FortBorne.

Spoiler

On the other hand, I could be wrong and Overwatch becomes the next break away success like cod4 was to consoles.

I mean the reason I made this thread is to not lump these together. Overwatch is basically TF2 on roids. Can't see why there wouldn't be an audience for that.

I think this thread's needed and appreciate it. I still see people mentioning Nosgoth as a MOBA and I can never tell if they're just ignorant about the game itself, or the MOBA genre as a whole.

Wow, that's still a thing? Haven't kept up with it at all. Saw one stream where someone asked if it's a MOBA and devs said it's rather TF2.

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

Fortnite was envisioned as a minecraft competitor. It's really not like the rest which really are similar enough that they're probably fighting for the same players.

 

[ashecitism]

Fortnite was envisioned as a minecraft competitor. It's really not like the rest which really are similar enough that they're probably fighting for the same players.

Yeah, I saw it mentioned from to time when it came to this topic. People probably saw the art style and that it's a shooter and thought it's similar.

 

[Croatoan]

Paragon is a moba, I mean it says so on the game's site FFS. It also has fully 3d aiming like gears of war (unlike smite) and melee only characters. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand...Moba is game type with some fairly rigid rules. Anything else, is not a moba.

 

[MutFox]

Really enjoying Dirty Bomb at the moment.
Though it does have a few issues

It needs to have matchmaking for casual games.
Also, it has very big issue with hackers. (Though most FPS games suffer from this)

 

[Mikey Jr.]

Yeah, all this shit just blends together for me tbh.

Thats why that Paragon announcement was such a non-starter for me. "Yay, another one of these things!"

It can be a moba, sroba, goba, I don't give a shit.

 

[ashecitism]

Paragon is a moba, I mean it says so on the game's site FFS. It also has fully 3d aiming like gears of war (unlike smite) and melee only characters. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand...Moba is game type with some fairly rigid rules. Anything else, is not a moba.

Haven't even thought about the aiming difference. Regardless I would still put them in the same category.

And yes, Epic has been very open that it's a MOBA.Not MOBA shooter, hero shooter etc... but MOBA.

 

[Kosma]

Overwatch isnt a moba

Its a class based shooter

Maybe Im just not getting the thread

 

[Abinash117]

Some of these class-based "hero shooters" where like some of the class-based shooting games before free-form loadout based games (were there is no classes) became popular .

 

[ashecitism]

Overwatch isnt a moba, dunno why you add it here

Its a class based shooter

Did you read the OP? I start with how I'm tired of people calling it MOBA or FPS MOBA. This thread is about clearing up which is which. People have been lumping these together even though outside of heroes they're not that similar.

 

[Kosma]

Clearly not, I was watchinh football as well sorry

Ill just shut up now

 

[Croatoan]

Haven't even thought about the aiming difference. Regardless I would still put them in the same category.

And yes, Epic has been very open that it's a MOBA.Not MOBA shooter, hero shooter etc... but MOBA.

Its a moba that is a shooter though. MOBA isn't defined by perspective or control type. It is defined by lanes, creeps and towers/bases.. If you are missing any of those then you are not a moba, you are an arena game (Overwatch).

 

[VincentMatts]

If i dont really play MOBAs, which is the one i should play?

 

[SpokkX]

So.. What is a DOTA?

This whole genre feels like it is not for us older gamers, i cringe just watching the "cool" heroes

 

[Abinash117]

So.. What is a DOTA?

This whole genre feels like it is not for us older gamers, i cringe just watching the "cool" heroes

A MOBA I would guess.

Some of these hero shooters are just today's lobby-based small scale shooters with very defined classes in arena like maps.

 

[injurai]

Overwatch still feels closer to a team fortress style game to me.

Paragon looks neat though.

 

[randomlee26]

I'm an old man gamer. I tried that DC MOBA and stopped after less than a half-hour and went back to Marvel Heroes (yes, I'm aware there's no similarity!). Their PvP hasn't really gained traction, and that's supposedly MOBA-esque.

Ugh. Give me a single-player FPS and call it a day

 

[ashecitism]

So.. What is a DOTA?

This whole genre feels like it is not for us older gamers, i cringe just watching the "cool" heroes

Dota is the original MOBA, at least DotA All-Stars is. Lots of heroes, one map, two bases, 3 lanes. Creeps, jungle, neutral creeps etc VB wrote an article about the genre's history: http://venturebeat.com/2014/09/01/the-history-of-mobas-from-mod-to-sensation/

Overwatch still feels closer to a team fortress style game to me.

That's what I'm saying too. Is it not clear?

 

[GuitarAtomik]

So.. What is a DOTA?

This whole genre feels like it is not for us older gamers, i cringe just watching the "cool" heroes

MOBAs? It's funny you say that considering DOTA has been around since like 2003-ish.

 

[Principate]

So.. What is a DOTA?

This whole genre feels like it is not for us older gamers, i cringe just watching the "cool" heroes

Dude it started off as a WC3 mod, so it's actually fairly old. (not the new boom started by LoL but the genre itself).

 

[SpokkX]

MOBAs? It's funny you say that considering DOTA has been around since like 2003-ish.

Oh really? Im a mostly console gamer (except Civ) and these mobas popped up in this forum more recently. Surely the free to play model and youtube idol streaming them is from the last 5 years at least?

 

[Mman235]

Was "Hero Shooter" a term before this thread?: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=184076549#post184076549

Because I found it interesting that they outright used that term at the PSX presentation when as far as I can tell it was only used in that thread before.

 

[HariKari]

Dirty Bomb is great, really underrated. Not surprising given the history of the devs.

 

[Pachimari]

I'm looking forward to almost all of these bar Gigantic and Paladins. And I'm playing Fortnite and it's really nice but definitely not a MOBA. I had also been wondering why some people put all of these in the MOBA category. Good we have this thread to explain it to the masses.

 

[Salex_]

I don't think people are reading the OP...? That's the only explanation for some of these responses. The intent is just a few lines in, it's even in bold.

So, this thread is to look at what titles are considered "hero shooter"/FPS MOBA and the difference between them.

And just below that he gives a detailed description of each game.

Anyways, I'm excited to try all of these FPS/TPS MOBAs and hero shooters. Fighting games has been my favorite and most played genre since 2009 (started playing competitively with Tekken 6, watched Tekken 5 DR/T6 arcade while waiting for T6 to come to consoles). I picked up LoL about 3 years ago and really liked how learning a new champion felt similar to learning a new character in a fighting game.

I think Paragon will probably end up being my favorite MOBA because it looks like it controls like a traditional 3rd person game.

 

[ashecitism]

To be fair I put that bold line in 20 minutes ago. I was hoping it came across even without that. Then again a lot of times people don't read the OP

Was "Hero Shooter" a term before this thread?: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=184076549#post184076549

Because I found it interesting that they outright used that term at the PSX presentation when as far as I can tell it was only used in that thread before.

I saw people using it before. Before that it was MOBA shooter or FPS MOBA. But I don't know exactly when "hero shooter" popped up.

 

[Clydebink]

Super Monday Night Combat (Supercross) is very much a MOBA.
Monday Night Combat, not so much.

 

[Pyros_Eien]

Oh really? Im a mostly console gamer (except Civ) and these mobas popped up in this forum more recently. Surely the free to play model and youtube idol streaming them is from the last 5 years at least?

Dota is originally a Warcraft 3 mod(and there's also the origins of that from a Starcraft mod but let's ignore that). Eventually at some point, some people who were working on the mod left to make Riot and League of Legends, who coined the term MOBA for the genre, since obviously "dota-like" doesn't sound very good when you're competing with the game. Then Valve sometimes later decided to make Dota2, which is just a port of the old Dota game to Source with fancy new graphics.

So the MOBA term is younger than DotA, which didn't have a genre name before, it was just DotA. Action RTS might have been used but it's like whatever.

F2P model and all that came after LoL came, so yeah it's also more recent than DotA itself.

 

[injurai]

That's what I'm saying too. Is it not clear?

I didn't see that, but I thought it should be contributed.

 

[texhnolyze]

People actually mix up games as MOBA?

No base, no creep wave, not MOBA. Simple.

Yes, these two are the determinant of MOBA.

 

[ashecitism]

Super Monday Night Combat (Supercross) is very much a MOBA.
Monday Night Combat, not so much.

Yeah, people always bring them up. Not familiar with them, decided to focus on upcoming or recent games.

 

[Clydebink]

Yeah, people always bring them up. Not familiar with them, decided to focus on upcoming or recent games.

Being a fan of it soon after in launched in April of 2012, it was frustrating to be between folks who saw it as a Team Fortress 2 clone and those who claimed it wasn't a MOBA because it was a third-person grappler. So many players were unfamiliar with MOBA mechanics (or refused to learn) that the developer felt the need to water down the benefits of leveling in a new (yet old) mode called "Turbocross". Matches of Supercross were some of the best and worst multiplayer matches in any game I've played. Teammate throwing themselves at the opposing team would start tirades in chat about how they need to quit the game or wait in the base, those matches were emotional and cruel. Playing with and against players that farmed the creeps defensively until having a slight edge for a good push was absurdly satisfying. I've been mourning the popularity-failure of Super Monday Night Combat for years, so it's nice to see some other developers try. Being ahead of the times can be punishing.

 

[ashecitism]

Saw someone say Splatoon is a MOBA. Lol

 

[ashecitism]

Paladins won MMORPG.com's "Most Anticipated MOBA for 2016" award with Overwatch being the runner up. Hilarious.

 

[Ardenyal]

Reminds me of the time when every game out there tried to kill World of Warcraft. So many bombas.

 

[KarmaCow]

Saw someone say Splatoon is a MOBA. Lol

Reminds me of that poster who said Papers, Please was a roguelike.

 

[Cels]

i prefer the term beginning with ASS and ending with GOTS over MOBA

 

[J-Tier]

Where does Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare 2 fall?

 

[Abinash117]

Paladins won MMORPG.com's "Most Anticipated MOBA for 2016" award with Overwatch being the runner up. Hilarious.

MMORPG.com has a liberal view of the word MMO, I think. I would think it would be the same for MOBA

 

[ashecitism]

Where does Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare 2 fall?

Not really familiar with that franchise, but when people talked about the first they mentioned TF2. Does the sequel have towers, creeps and such or it's just players only? If so, then it's probably in the TF2, Overwatch, Paladins group. What are the modes?