PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
Ore that great line "It eats monsters for breakfest"
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Microsoft told digital foundry that the Series X is their mid-gen refresh (DF direct Weekly #116)
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
That was because of scarcity tho. I hope Sony breaks their "it's gotta be $500 or less sweetspot" and give us something at $600 for a mid gen refresh. Doubt that'll happen tho.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Trolling, yes. There are over the top fantards in all camps.
FUD campaigns that kept moving to the next thing, then the next thing, then the next thing? Nah. Even DF partook in the FUD early on. And they are actively trying to do it right now, by saying "they hope a PS5 Pro does not exist, that it will hinder the base model." Which last gen showed that was not the case.
Pure clownery.
We are not talking about fanatics and trolling, we are talking about well organized FUD campaigns. Something that history has shown to be a constant.
Digital Foundry is really showing their true colors lately I love it.
Dick Jones
Banned
Xbox's marketing had them reveal the mid-gen refresh around 8 months before they announced their next gen console. Aaron you fucking did it again.
GHG
Gold Member
I bought a PS4 pro last gen, I'd buy a PS5 pro this gen. This is one of my main hobbies, in the grand scheme of things it's not that expensive and I want the best where possible. The original PS5 can be sold, no problem, they've held their value relatively well. I just purchased some lowering springs that cost far more than any mid generation console update would, it's not that deep.
You're attempting to make out that multiple SKU's become a problem as far as mid generation console upgrades are concerned. The evidence we have doesn't align with that notion. I don't remember any developers stating there were developmental problems with the PS4 Pro or One X last gen. What we have seen though is them voicing concerns and also stating when there have been problems with the Series S/X situation.
Not for the platform that is the topic of discussion here. Microsoft just announced they will no longer be supporting the Xbox One generation as far as games are concerned, and I don't know if you've noticed, but 3rd party developers have long since abandoned the Xbox One as well.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Almost like a Sega move with the 32X and Saturn. Though Saturn was just stealth dropped.Xbox's marketing had them reveal the mid-gen refresh around 8 months before they announced their next gen console. Aaron you fucking did it again.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Not about just deep, it's the age old adage of the reason someone buys a console is that they don't have to worry about upgrades etc for as long as the generation lasts, it's the reason why the hardware split was 80 - 20 last gen despite the mid gens coming out just 3 years after the initial console launches. You bought them, that's great, I am not questioning your interest in the hobby at all.
We also didn't see a prolonged cross gen period where developers are also supporting PS4/XBO along with the new gens. PS5 Pro in '24 will likely mean we'll still be seeing cross-gen PS4 games till then as well.
"Long since abandoned" is a bit of a stretch, Alien: Dark Descent came out today and it has an XBO version. the next Yakuza will also be coming out on XBO. There's too many for me to list individually but you get the idea.
And even if a few developers like Capcom don't release base XBO games anymore, they're still supporting base PS4, another last-gen console.
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I agree.
I think bottom line is since Sony can actually sell hardware at a decent clip, they may have more incentive to do a pro console vs MS. From a business sense, MS doesnt. Too many ppl get hung up on the power narrative.
XSX stock issues
introduce a 3rd sku and add to stock issues
MS have alot going on with Xbox consoles. Meanwhile Sony made 2 consoles the exact same except for a disc drive. To me it just seems easier for Sony to introduce another sku vs MS.
Exactly.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Couple that with Sony dropping to one SKU this holiday with the detachable disk drive console than bring out the Pro and back to only 2 SKUs
Jigsaah
Gold Member
I think at the very least Xbox needs to find a way to address the difference in 3rd party performance between themselves and Sony. I don't know why games seem to perform better on average on PS5, maybe a better SSD or an option for a better SSD?
Or maybe it's a software issue? I dunno, but while that may not warrant an entirely new mid gen refresh, it's a problem they should still address.
Or maybe it's a software issue? I dunno, but while that may not warrant an entirely new mid gen refresh, it's a problem they should still address.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Perfectly said. Which sounds like a sound strategy. Not sure what MS is doing here thinking that this was a good idea.
Is it DX12 related?
hinch7
Member
Define plenty? Only desperate people buy from scalpers and those may be in the thousands. This was at a time when the pandemic was in full swing (with lockdowns), with chip shortages and scarcity being a thing; it was the perfect storm for scalpers.
Besides that we've seen historically that the PS3 sold like crap at $600. And its very unlikely we're not going to see the price point again. Unless they want to see their consoles sitting on shelves collecting dust. Just like GPU market is right now and how AMD and Nvidia are learning there's only so much you can price something until consumers say no.
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Jigsaah
Gold Member
I have no idea. I try to avoid blaming it on the existence and subsequent requirement to develop for the S, but I can't really count it out.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
An SKU that is too small in base gets neglected. That was what happened to the WiiU. And since we have proof that Series S as it is is already causing porting issues, adding another one to the ecosystem without increasing the install base would decrease appeal further. I mean, if Xbox insist they can do whatever they want, but it is their own funeral.
Rykan
Member
It doesn't matter how much a “hypothetical PS5 pro” would compare because that is not why people play on a PC instead of a console. People play on PC because a PC is far more versatile. It can be customized and upgraded at will, It's a more social experience, and it can be used for tasks besides games. It also gives access to a wide variety of games and genres that are not available on consoles.
There is no PC gamer that is looking at a PS5 Pro and be like “okay NOW is the time to swap to a console” instead of a regular PS5 or XSX. A console's specs isn't what is keeping PC gamers playing on PC. A person that wasn't persuaded by a regular PS5 isn't going to be persuaded by a PS5 pro.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
"Rising tide lifts all boats"
The man told us. Devs told us, it's not just about a TF number.
Nydius
Member
Man I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed this.
I don't really care about the whole mid-gen refresh debate because I bought a Series X hoping to avoid such a thing but in the DF video I absolutely agree with Richard that the price point of the 1TB XSS simply makes no sense. Not when the current one is regularly on sale for $250, sometimes less. Or could be found factory refurbished for around $230-$250, or second-hand used for $200-$225. One could buy a current white 512 XSS on sale (or refurb, or used) and buy the 512GB expansion card (either brand), and pay less than they're asking for the 1TB black model refresh.
Feels like they would have done better to drop the 1TB model into the $299 price point and phase out the old 512GB ones, using holiday sales to empty retailer stock of that model. But who knows what the hell goes through their heads over in the marketing department in Redmond...
Knightime_X
Member
Imagine if Sony panicked and acted on this while MS was just trolling.
Sony invests a large sum for a pro version, a few years later Xbox announced Series X-2 that's deliberately stronger than ps5 pro .
Sony can't just jump ships nilly willy that fast and bust out ps6.
Not without heavy consequences.
Sony invests a large sum for a pro version, a few years later Xbox announced Series X-2 that's deliberately stronger than ps5 pro .
Sony can't just jump ships nilly willy that fast and bust out ps6.
Not without heavy consequences.
Helghan
Member
Release next gen consoles in 3 years, 1 year before Sony does to get a head start. Since Sony decided to do a mid gen refresh they might not release at the same time.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
A few years later (after 2024) would be around the time a PS6 lands tho.
PeteBull
Member
Actual midgen upgrades will be priced 600 to 800$, soonest holidays 2024 or in 2025, so ofc by then those 600 bucks will be worth as much as 400$ back in 2013 tho.
Still many of us, enthusiasts will gladly buy it.
How powerful console is/gonna be isnt currently bottlenecked by its price but by its powerlimit, aka u need them to be at least 2x more powerful from base consoles( so ps5/xsx, lol at xss) and still keep that 220-250W tdp to be contain in console factor boxes w/o getting too hot/too loud.
For comparision ps5 has official tdp of 350W but DF measured how much power it takes running miles morales(so launch crossgen game), and it was already over 200W(206W iirc).
Thats why u hear date of holidays of 2024 or 2025 sometime, thats simply earliest tsmc can provide console manufactures with mature enough 3nm node, so it can be used for making console APU's.
Remember thats not just gpu powerdraw but everything so cpu/vram,ssd and even fans/vapour chamber aka cooling system, and u can compare it to current amd's offering, their bext, rx 7900xtx card is easily 2x powerful from xsx/ps5 but it alone has 355tdp(and die size of 529 square mm, in comparision xsx 360/ps5 308 .
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-6700-xt.c3695 here quick but very good avg game performance of gpu's comparision, 6700xt is better/faster in every possible way from what consoles got and top amd card is at 228% of its performance currently.
Hence again, we need that 3nm node and amd's rdna4 gpu architecture, powerdraw will be much lower/chip size much smaller, and rt performance will probably be on similar lvl or even better vs that previously mentioned top amd card.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
So that means XSX2 and PS6 out by 2028-2029? Really?
These mid gen upgrades keep not making sense, e-peen and desire to have new toys are not enough reasons (not logically no).
And what exactly would be a problem if Microsoft had Series X Pro? Devs would need to still target Series S as a baseline. Then you have Series X with 1440p and then Series X Pro with native 4K (for example). So I struggle to see a problem here.
PeteBull
Member
We can quickly compare it to last gen, ps4pr0 launched holidays 2016, xbox one x holidays 2017, and we still got both ps5/xsx holidays 2020 so 4 years for sony and 3 years for ms after their midgen upgrade.
There is no way if ps6/xbox next come in 2028-2030 those companies leave their most hardcore/enthusiasts/devoted fanbase with machines from 2020 till then
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Zathalus
Member
It's not really much of a issue, as they keep going back and forth. Diablo 4, Dead Space, and Witcher 3 for example runs slightly better on the Series X. RE4, Hogwarts, and Jedi Survivor are better on PS5. If we make a list going back to launch I wouldn't be surprised if it was a near even 50/50 split.
The differences are almost always so slight that no one outside of DF/NX/VGtech will notice.
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scarlet0pimp
Member
i would like to see consoles drop the generation model, and move to something like the iphone type model, where new hardware is released maybe evert couple of years, steadily improving. Software stays the same but as hardware ages it simply stops getting new software updates and games are made to target certain software levels.
The 1 Tb Series S should drop in to the price of the 512Gb model and the 512Gb should drop by £50.
I'm sure if a PS5 pro is in the works then Microsoft will respond with a more powerful model. My only question is how much more powerful can a console be if it is still targeting around £450. Xbox has some wiggle room to release a more powerful box with out much effort i think. If they simply upgrade the RAM setup so all the Chips are 2 Gb that would give it 20Gb RAM with nice bandwidth and then increase the clock speeds of the GPU and CPU buy a couple of hundred Mhz each, probably wouldn't even have to redesign the case and they would have a decent upgrade, for not much investment. Not going to be double to power but it would certainly enable them to boost frame rates and resolutions.
Playstation 5 Pro not sure what they would do there simply increasing clock speeds might be difficult as they are running at high speeds anyway more RAM is easy enough but they would probably need to add more compute units to the GPU which would be more expensive in R&D and physical costs.
The 1 Tb Series S should drop in to the price of the 512Gb model and the 512Gb should drop by £50.
I'm sure if a PS5 pro is in the works then Microsoft will respond with a more powerful model. My only question is how much more powerful can a console be if it is still targeting around £450. Xbox has some wiggle room to release a more powerful box with out much effort i think. If they simply upgrade the RAM setup so all the Chips are 2 Gb that would give it 20Gb RAM with nice bandwidth and then increase the clock speeds of the GPU and CPU buy a couple of hundred Mhz each, probably wouldn't even have to redesign the case and they would have a decent upgrade, for not much investment. Not going to be double to power but it would certainly enable them to boost frame rates and resolutions.
Playstation 5 Pro not sure what they would do there simply increasing clock speeds might be difficult as they are running at high speeds anyway more RAM is easy enough but they would probably need to add more compute units to the GPU which would be more expensive in R&D and physical costs.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Worst of PC and worst of consoles… But I guess that seeing phones going up and up in price and performance now improving only by 10-15% years over year is exciting? Cross generation forever…
Did the console generations model hurt you
?Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Fair, but that was Sony’s point. Pure TFLOPS difference is misleading. They seem to have made the right bet as they have very high volumes and are not losing a lot on each unit sold if anything at all.
FrankWza
Member
It's enough to establish that people are willing to spend more in the console space. And the PS3 is a long time ago now and it had similar competition +beat to market and price. If they make it powerful enough it will sell at least as much, percentage-wise, as the PS4 pro and there'd be no Pro console to compete with it. And If they did something like full BC it would be a nice thing to market and set them up going forward.
They also raised prices in some territories and it didn't appear to hurt sales. VR2 already pushed that price point as well. I'd buy one.
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It's fine for DF to say that, but Series X and PS5 were clearly the "next generation" consoles at the time . The S was clearly the value option from the start. If Sony releases a PS5 Pro /mid gen refresh Microsoft will have to release an XPro. They are probably hoping Sony does not launch PS5Pro any time soon, cause developing and launching mid gen refreshes that aren't just die shrinks is an expensive thing to do. And Xbox has too many SKUs for Devs to manage as it is.
This is an advantage for Sony. With a mid-get refresh, PS5 becomes their base console and the Pro is their enthusiast console. This model worked great for PS4 and PS4Pro.
Xbox's baseline still has to be Series S, which has like triple as many consoles in customer homes as the X. If they release X Pro you now have your customer base split 3 ways and devs instructed to develop for things to work on the S, which is already hamstringing them. I don't see how that model is supportable.
This is an advantage for Sony. With a mid-get refresh, PS5 becomes their base console and the Pro is their enthusiast console. This model worked great for PS4 and PS4Pro.
Xbox's baseline still has to be Series S, which has like triple as many consoles in customer homes as the X. If they release X Pro you now have your customer base split 3 ways and devs instructed to develop for things to work on the S, which is already hamstringing them. I don't see how that model is supportable.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That seems like that could end in disaster for MS though. They'll be asking their customers to spend ANOTHER $500 on a new device, when it's hard enough to spend that same money on the XSX.
Bernardougf
Member
And so it should.. 800-1000 dollar powerhouse for the niche .. its time !The takes ITT where people think a PS5 Pro will come in at anything less than $800 when modern Sony is hawking $200 controllers is adorable.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The PS5 Pro can't be a dollar over $550. If it is, it would need to come with 2 additional years of PS+ Premium or something.
Jigsaah
Gold Member
Well there is that leak...that might suggest Sony is doing something like that.
Bernardougf
Member
Its a niche product ... they judt released a console priced VR and an 200 dollar controller... dont think that IF they choose to release a pro console will be 500 dollar cheap ... but lets see
Helghan
Member
What do you mean? Aren't we going to spend $500 on the next-generation of consoles?
The entirety of that video made me realized why I stopped paying too much attention to DF.
Averse to a PS5 Pro releasing? Really? For reasons of........not hindering the standard console?
I'm sorry, did I wake up to an alternate reality where the PS5 Pro and whatever the hell the Xbox mid gen refresh was named didn't exist?
And this is AFTER they were talking about how XSX is the mid-gen refresh all along, and also the fact that MS released TWO DIFFERING consoles of TWO DIFFERENT capabilities AT THE SAME TIME!
What in the living hell are they even on about? You're saying its a bad thing to have a mid-gen console refresh, while simultaneously being completely fine that XBOX has TWO differing consoles at launch?
Absurdity, and a justification for my avoidance of watching DF content in recent years.
Averse to a PS5 Pro releasing? Really? For reasons of........not hindering the standard console?
I'm sorry, did I wake up to an alternate reality where the PS5 Pro and whatever the hell the Xbox mid gen refresh was named didn't exist?
And this is AFTER they were talking about how XSX is the mid-gen refresh all along, and also the fact that MS released TWO DIFFERING consoles of TWO DIFFERENT capabilities AT THE SAME TIME!
What in the living hell are they even on about? You're saying its a bad thing to have a mid-gen console refresh, while simultaneously being completely fine that XBOX has TWO differing consoles at launch?
Absurdity, and a justification for my avoidance of watching DF content in recent years.
Of all the takes you could have made, claiming Sony would release a $800 consoles is one of the silliest take to have taken.The takes ITT where people think a PS5 Pro will come in at anything less than $800 when modern Sony is hawking $200 controllers is adorable.
Torrent of Pork
Banned
The first platform holder to embrace $70 games, the people to charge $10 next gen patches, the company that increased its hardware price in all the markets it had no competition in, and the company that charges $200 for a controller with a weaker better life than the one there comes in the box................
That's the company you think is going to release a 4k/60 box for less than $250 over the box they're selling hand over fist?
You went from $800 to ~$250 as your goal post and now it makes zero sense.
No, Sony won't sell it below $250, and hell no they won't sell you a console at $800 dollars.
If Sony wanted to sell us a $800 console they would have done it already if they didn't already had a bad freaking taste in their mouth for selling the original PS3 for $499 at the height of their arrogance.
That being said, I can see a Pro PS5 being sold for $400 - $500 (which I doubt, but possible). But if you think they would price themselves ABOVE an entire PSVR2 set for $549, you're just kind of pushing the boundaries of what im able to believe.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Their true colors get revealed more and more. They couldn't even keep the script straight in the same show.
Don't worry, they'll sing praises if they get first look at the XSX-X.
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hinch7
Member
Its why I don't bother taking their 'takes'.
Better stick to objective data from them than clickbait. That and they're not as impartial as they like to make themselves out to be.
Nydius
Member
I’ll still watch their technical breakdowns but take opinion comments within them with several grains of salt.
I feel like DF’s decline really accelerated when they decided to become a weekly show because now they have to find ways to fill the time, and that often devolves into clickbait and bad hot takes for “engagement“. Rather wish they had just stuck to just technical videos.
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