Support NeoGAF

[M1chl]

And so, I picked some random looser and went to post it into technical thread? Peak creativity.

 

[saintjules]

And so, I picked some random looser and went to post it into technical thread? Peak creativity.

The ignore button is there. I just used it.

 

[M1chl]

The ignore button is there. I just used it.

#brave

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

And so, I picked some random looser and went to post it into technical thread? Peak creativity.

Yeah I was thinking.. and who are these people? $600 doesn't seem that bad to me for either console considering what an PC equivalent would cost you.

 

[M1chl]

Yeah I was thinking.. and who are these people? $600 doesn't seem that bad to me for either console considering what an PC equivalent would cost you.

Obviously it would be better if they eat some part of the real price of the console, but I don't think that this is possible nowadays, market has changed.

 

[jimbojim]

For the amount of autistic screeching you lot do with your cries of "FUD", you sure like to spread it every chance you get.

I think maybe you should rewatch both demos

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Yes, and to really appreciate that you either need a kick-ass audio system in your home (TV speakers simply will not cut it), or extremely expensive headphones. Or at least really good headphones that'll probably set you back $150 - $200.

It's little things like that which'll probably make next-gen a bit more expensive than it'll appear on paper for people who want the ultimate experience (that isn't PC).

Decent headphones are much more likely than a great sound system in a properly insulated room.

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

I just hope the new Audeze’s Penrose (and Penrose X) are good enough to enjoy the new audio tech in both consoles, and PC

All headphones are great until you hear better ones. My advice is buy the best you can afford and don't listen to anything better.

Even years old Sony WH1000xm3 headphones have 3D audio with personal customization.

Also, you are talking from your ass or you are mixing high end music sound quality to what is good enough for gaming

There are good "cheap" headphones, it is not rocket Science. Only hifi fanatics want to think so to justify their over priced stuff.

If you would really know about audio tech, you would know that some headphones have higher, some have lower impedance so not all need to have headphone amplifier to run them properly.

Just by claiming that "there are no good 150$ headphones" you kind of tell that you have no idea, just some hifi-fanatic madman talk. (Games dont even need to have high end super realistic audiophile level quality like music fanatics Claim they need)

Even 20-30€ headphones can give really good 3D audio effects(tested it), they are kind of simple tech and have been manufactured for like 100 years by now, so tech have evolved even on cheap end.

I don't need noise cancel so I don't have those but that's pretty cool for the xm3. We are talking about increasing audio fidelity then you have to talk about equipment. Sure there are good 150$ headphones but like all things with price can come improvements and do. But not like other things audio quality hasn't really improved like video quality and others. So you can enjoy your audio purchase for much longer.
Impedance is only one part of volume. Along with an amps output power, impedanceand the headphone's sensitivity. Lots of good low impedance headphones require an amp. Yes cheap headphones can show you spacial audio, but like TVs things can be quite different from worst to best.

 

[saintjules]

Yeah I was thinking.. and who are these people? $600 doesn't seem that bad to me for either console considering what an PC equivalent would cost you.

$600 is definitely fair value imo when you look at the 6-7+ year lifespan Console output and what we're getting this Holiday from both Companies.

The people worried are either people that haven't prepared themselves well enough for a price that high or are ones who don't have an income to take that kind of a gamble on. I can understand that not everyone will be able to afford it though based on what's going on with the Pandemic for example.

I made the mistake of not being prepared for the PS2 and PS3 by not saving in advance. Then I ended up having to hunt them down for months post their launches once the money was there. With the PS4 and onward, I said to myself as soon as there's rumblings of new Consoles, save money. When I saw the specs, I just had to be prepared for whatever the cost may be since I'm planning to be an early adopter for both Consoles.

 

[mckmas8808]

Because it will be at least $500 and that is selling at a loss. X1S is not future proof. Just because Fortnite may always play on it doesn't mean the kid won't want to play other games that may be next gen only. So do I pay $200 for a console that has two years left in it or $300 for XSS that will last the whole generation? Easy XSS purchase.

Okay, but how will Lockhart be $300 if the XSX is $600?

 

[DavidGzz]

Okay, but how will Lockhart be $300 if the XSX is $600?

You keep moving the price around. You said $400, I said $500, and you went to $600. We can have this talk when prices are revealed. Either way XSS will be cheaper, I feel like you just want to be difficult on purpose.

 

[mckmas8808]

You keep moving the price around. You said $400, I said $500, and you went to $600. We can have this talk when prices are revealed. Either way XSS will be cheaper, I feel like you just want to be difficult on purpose.

No when I said $400, I was talking about Lockhart. Not XSX.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

I would love to see how this differs to the PS5.

It’s a PS5 with a 20% more powerful GPU, more memory bandwidth to support that GPU with enough throughput but a much slower disc speed.

One will run games at a higher resolution, one will have faster loading speeds.

 

[NullZ3r0]

The answer is yes.

Further explanation is as follows: there is enough power for both CPU and GPU to potentially run at their max clocks. In cases where they do not, it is more likely that the CPU will be throttled back and not the GPU because it's far more likely that the GPU will be the bottleneck and not the CPU.

This makes zero sense. PS5 clocks are variable for a reason. Both the CPU and GPU can't run at their max clocks. If they did, Sony wouldn't have listed the clocks as variable.

 

[NullZ3r0]

It’s a PS5 with a 20% more powerful GPU, more memory bandwidth to support that GPU with enough throughput but a much slower disc speed.

One will run games at a higher resolution, one will have faster loading speeds.

No it isn't.

 

[GHG]

#brave

#stunning

 

[M1chl]

#stunning

#courage

 

[psorcerer]

This makes zero sense. PS5 clocks are variable for a reason. Both the CPU and GPU can't run at their max clocks. If they did, Sony wouldn't have listed the clocks as variable.

That makes a lot of sense.
Both run at the max clocks and drop to lower ones when overused. I.e. uncapped frame-rates, uncapped cpu-spins.

 

[Insane Metal]

XSX has worse RT performance than Nvidia RT, it's not a tag problem. But whatever

It's not so much XSX has worse RT than nvidia, it's actually AMD's RT. Personally I never expected RDNA2 to even match Turing, let alone surpass. Maybe "big navi" does match it but then you have Ampere... so yeah...

 

[M1chl]

It's not so much XSX has worse RT than nvidia, it's actually AMD's RT. Personally I never expected RDNA2 to even match Turing, let alone surpass. Maybe "big navi" does match it but then you have Ampere... so yeah...

Some people are pretty dense...

 

[psorcerer]

On par with 2060. If you that consider as "nuts", then OK

I'm not sure how do you know that.
There's no comparison possible as no real numbers exist for NV hw.

 

[Knitted Knight]

Beast. Hopefully MS doesn't price themselves out with that $599 rumor. Kinda a bummer we'll have to wait for at least late 2022 with Hellblade 2 or Forza to really see this thing pump metal. Third parties are a lost cause. Battlefield 6 will show some of that power but they never get close enough to a first-party taking full advantage. Hardware team delivered. Phil is a disgrace however.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Anyone managed to find a stream for the GPU architecture presentations yet? I'm worried they'll all be on HC only and you need a membership to access stuff on their site apparently.

If the launch prices for the PS5 and the XB Series X will be $599, they are dead in the water until 12-18 months later when they have a substantial price drop. Face it. The only people who will go out and buy a $600 console(s) are gaming enthusiasts like all of us here on GAF. You average moms, dads, Joes, Grannies, Granpas are NOT going to say, "Jimmy wants a PS5/XSX for Christmas, so by gosh I'm going to spend $600 (for the console) + $60 for a game before taxes for him."

Not 100% sold on this. FWIW PS3 was $499 and $599 (scarcity of the $499 model "effectively" made the $599 model the default though) and still did pretty well during initial launch period. XBO was $499 and did pretty well for the first few months as well.

I think people underestimate how much hardcore/core gamers are willing to spend on next-gen systems in the launch period, recession or not. A lot of them WILL find the means to afford these systems even if it means eating ramen noodles for a month or two.

It’s a PS5 with a 20% more powerful GPU, more memory bandwidth to support that GPU with enough throughput but a much slower disc speed.

One will run games at a higher resolution, one will have faster loading speeds.

Not much slower disc speed, just slower SSD. Which it'd seem with SFS could be good enough to close up the gap in the SSD I/O paper specs considerably though I still would think PS5 has the advantage there (and probably easier to leverage one too; SFS will require some bit of learning to fully leverage I'd assume).

 

[Bigfroth]

Secret sauce incoming

 

[M1chl]

Secret sauce incoming

OT: I am suffering with hunger lately, this does not help at 1:30am : D

 

[TheTechnician]

sadly whole conference is streamed behind a paywall.. not shure if we even get youtube vids this time..

 

[saintjules]

sadly whole conference is streamed behind a paywall.. not shure if we even get youtube vids this time..

I'm sure there will be someone relaying the stream. I'll share a link if I see one go up.

Where did you see that info regarding paywall?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

sadly whole conference is streamed behind a paywall.. not shure if we even get youtube vids this time..

Yeah, that part sucks. I'm sure someone at DF (Leadbetter most likely) has a membership and will conveniently cover what's covered, maybe have some footage as well.

...Hopefully. That's probably our best hope for right now anyway xD.

 

[TheTechnician]

I'm sure there will be someone relaying the stream. I'll share a link if I see one go up.

Okay thx

Where did you see that info regarding paywall?

on their website:

Hot Chips

A Symposium on High Performance Chips

www.hotchips.org

below the tickets price and registration paragraph it is writen:

All tutorials, keynotes, and sessions will be broadcast in a live video stream that all registered conference attendees will be able to access with a password protected login. This password will be emailed to you before the start of the conference

 

[Ascend]

I'm sure the likes of Anandtech will write a good article about it.

 

[Spokker]

Was there this much confusion over which console was more powerful when the PS4 and Xbox One launched? I remember before launch the PS4 was considered more powerful and that the Xbox One was underpowered and focused too much on media player and Kinect crap, which is why I chose the PS4 after being an Xbox 360 guy the previous generation (only got a PS3 during Black Friday 2011).

It seems to me that the Xbox Series X is slated to be more powerful than the PS5, but I guess we won't really know until Digital Foundry has analyzed a bunch of multi-platform games and compared resolution, performance and overall image quality.

This generation has followed the same general trend in terms of graphical quality and performance: Xbox One -> PS4 -> PS4 Pro -> Xbox One X

The above is not controversial, but PS5 vs. Xbox Series X really is.

 

[Dodkrake]

More processing at lower temps. Win- win

Not necessarily. More CUs also means higher temps, hence the lower clocks when compared other RDNA2 cards with lower CU counts.

 

[Journey]

Okay thx



on their website:

Hot Chips

A Symposium on High Performance Chips

www.hotchips.org

below the tickets price and registration paragraph it is writen:

I was going to ask what time it starts to watch it.... oh well, I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow for Anandtech or DF write-ups.

 

[Trueblakjedi]

Well at least on the audio we know PS5's Tempest Engine is a reworked CU so roughly 285 GFLOPs raw performance there and able to take up to 20 GB/s of system bandwidth

OTOH Series X's audio solution being equivalent to One X CPU would put it at around 148 GFLOPs if this chart is to be believed. That's raw numbers, anyway. They say it's actually greater though, so it would be at least 150 GFLOPs of audio performance here, and then you also need to take architectural gains into account. I don't know the IPC gains Zen 2 has over Jaguar, but assuming it's same as RDNA1 over GCN, that'd be a 50% IPC gain, so it would be equivalent to 222 - 225 GFLOPs of the One X CPU for their audio solution (on the low end, it could be more than that in actuality).

So not quite as capable as Sony's but not far off, either. They're within great range of one another and that's just off of what I could analyze very quickly.

I think the PS5 audio solution is 100GFLOP not 200+.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Well:

X1X was 499USD, if I am not mistaken, this probably going to more demanding for your wallet.

To be fair the APU could go from $125 to $175 and MS could eat the extra $50 if they wanted to. I'm guessing $500.

 

[TLZ]

So more likely the SX is at $599, and that's why they have the SS for that likely $299 entry point to lessen the blow.

 

[onQ123]

Less than 2X the triangles of Xbox One X so I'm guessing it has the same amount of Geometry Units as Xbox One X but benefit from the higher clock rate , 116Gpix/s show that they went from 32 ROPS to 64 ROPS with the higher clock rate.

 

[onQ123]

It’s a PS5 with a 20% more powerful GPU, more memory bandwidth to support that GPU with enough throughput but a much slower disc speed.

One will run games at a higher resolution, one will have faster loading speeds.

Actually no PS5 will have better triangle & pixel fill rate than Xbox Series X so it's not 20% more powerful GPU.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Was there this much confusion over which console was more powerful when the PS4 and Xbox One launched? I remember before launch the PS4 was considered more powerful and that the Xbox One was underpowered and focused too much on media player and Kinect crap, which is why I chose the PS4 after being an Xbox 360 guy the previous generation (only got a PS3 during Black Friday 2011).

It seems to me that the Xbox Series X is slated to be more powerful than the PS5, but I guess we won't really know until Digital Foundry has analyzed a bunch of multi-platform games and compared resolution, performance and overall image quality.

This generation has followed the same general trend in terms of graphical quality and performance: Xbox One -> PS4 -> PS4 Pro -> Xbox One X

The above is not controversial, but PS5 vs. Xbox Series X really is.

Series X is more powerful. It's not really debatable. How that affects performance is debatable, but not that it had more raw performance.

 

[Insane Metal]

Dude RDNA2 is insanely efficient, which is very impressive coming from AMD.

XSX GPU with 52CUs @ 1.825Mhz is 130~140W. Guess the whole console is around 180~200W.

 

[Psyrgery ES]

According to him both consoles are bandwidth starved, not even touching into XSX slower 338Gb/s Ram

I say he doesn't know shit

One is less starved than the other though.

As for the slower Ram, I really don't know. According to MS, they offered a slower bandwith with unified ram to developers or the solution they currently have, and developers opted for the higher bandwith. Also, other users there in Beyon3D agreed with that guy, and in terms of techy stuff I trust people there more than in your average videogame forums.

 

[rob305]

The main question is : Can it run Resident Evil VIII at 4k?

If Sony doesnt moneyhat it first

 

[GamerEDM]

so where are people watching this hot chips event? i cant find it anywhere

 

[Lone Wolf]

so where are people watching this hot chips event? i cant find it anywhere

You have to pay to watch it. I don’t think streaming is allowed.

 

[ZehDon]

Dude RDNA2 is insanely efficient, which is very impressive coming from AMD.

XSX GPU with 52CUs @ 1.825Mhz is 130~140W. Guess the whole console is around 180~200W.

Pretty insane, when you look at the output the machine is capable of.

 

[Deto]

One is less starved than the other though.

As for the slower Ram, I really don't know. According to MS, they offered a slower bandwith with unified ram to developers or the solution they currently have, and developers opted for the higher bandwith. Also, other users there in Beyon3D agreed with that guy, and in terms of techy stuff I trust people there more than in your average videogame forums.

This is what MS said.

For me, the original idea was 20GB of RAM, all 320bits 560GB/s. RAM price went up, they had to cut to keep the BOM below 600USD.
The operating system is in the slowest pool, and every time the pool is accessed the general bandwidth drops well below the PS5's 448GB / s.

That a long time ago I said, recent rumors of the price of the SX staying at 600USD only reinforced my theory.

Just like I think Sony wanted more than 448GB / s of bandwidth, and had to keep it at 448GB / s because the price of RAM went up.
The difference is that Sony's original idea allowed cost cutting to be more flexible and efficient than cost cutting by MS, which had to do this workaround.

 

[Dolomite]

But if it cost $400, why not just buy them an X1S for Fortnite? Or allow them to keep their X1S and save on not getting a new console.

Because people want new products, especially around the holidays. Folks happily stand outside of Apple stores to buy the new iPhone but can't tell you what it does differently. To some folks 2 lenses on a camera is more than enough, for some folks a next gen console that doesn't do 4k is fine. Some folks will happily buy the iPhone with 3 lenses because they enjoy the tech, some gamers want an XSX for the same

 

[Kagey K]

Was there this much confusion over which console was more powerful when the PS4 and Xbox One launched? I remember before launch the PS4 was considered more powerful and that the Xbox One was underpowered and focused too much on media player and Kinect crap, which is why I chose the PS4 after being an Xbox 360 guy the previous generation (only got a PS3 during Black Friday 2011).

It seems to me that the Xbox Series X is slated to be more powerful than the PS5, but I guess we won't really know until Digital Foundry has analyzed a bunch of multi-platform games and compared resolution, performance and overall image quality.

This generation has followed the same general trend in terms of graphical quality and performance: Xbox One -> PS4 -> PS4 Pro -> Xbox One X

The above is not controversial, but PS5 vs. Xbox Series X really is.

Its really not, the Series X is more powerful. Anyone that tries to dispute that is being dishonest.

 

[Journey]

This is what MS said.

For me, the original idea was 20GB of RAM, all 320bits 560GB/s. RAM price went up, they had to cut to keep the BOM below 600USD.
The operating system is in the slowest pool, and every time the pool is accessed the general bandwidth drops well below the PS5's 448GB / s.

That a long time ago I said, recent rumors of the price of the SX staying at 600USD only reinforced my theory.

To understand it better, see XSX memory bandwidth explained in 3 tweets

 

[Psyrgery ES]

This is what MS said.

For me, the original idea was 20GB of RAM, all 320bits 560GB/s. RAM price went up, they had to cut to keep the BOM below 600USD.
The operating system is in the slowest pool, and every time the pool is accessed the general bandwidth drops well below the PS5's 448GB / s.

That a long time ago I said, recent rumors of the price of the SX staying at 600USD only reinforced my theory.

Guess we will know soon enough.

I would not be too worried about the RAM setup though. The GTX970 (Faux 4gb ram Card) had a similar setup (3'5gb fast ram vs slowass 0'5gb that would bring the performance to a halt when it was reached) and many times users forced the card to use the whole memory without the games stuttering.

It was when users went nuts and crancked the settings of the games up to eleven (4k, ultra settings, uncompressed textures) in a way that the gpu ended up shitting itself and the performance went to shit.

In reality we wont really see what happens when the games hit that limit because developers will develop games in a "split-memory" friendly environment which will monitor the ram usage at all times.