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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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that is where i got the idea that whenever x goes over 7.5 GB for games (with 2.5 reserved for OS), that the xsx memory speed would be below ps5. SonGoku SonGoku says it will still be higher. Idk enough to know for sure.
The OS wouldn’t use the 10 faster GBs of Ram. It would use the slower ram. The entire 10 is there for games and games alone.
 

Vaztu

Member
Soo.. am i going crazy? Putting aside the '...after a console shutdown' part of the xbox's multi-game resume....

...I was under the impression that Sony confirmed multi-game resume for PS5 before xbox announced theirs? Now though, I'm having trouble finding this info for myself.

No official details, but its not hard to implement it.

Two sources where you can speculate the tech is lined up for multi-game resume AND more.


 

Vaztu

Member
Ok guys. Seems to me now that someone needs at least two relevant PhD's to follow and contribute to this thread.
When do we expect the next official info droplet? In my estimation April is still a possibility and May is a certainty.

I think we will get some information on Tuesday. Simply based on the deduction that MS has something lined up for Monday. So, to reign in the parade and control it, Sony may release some info. If info from MS on Monday is bland/meaningless Sony might not do anything till 3rd or 4th week of April (based on Sony's 20 day approach of releasing info).
 

xool

Member
whoever81 whoever81

This month and it will be the teardown.

Mark Cerny my words.

They'd be STUPID not to do a console teardown/reveal mid COVID lockdown (assuming it doesn't turn really tragic in US like happened in northern Italy)

.. internet would go nuts. End of April - my guess

That said .. under new management
 
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Tripolygon

Banned
TSS is the hardware feature... did you even read the PDF you posted?
TSS is a shading technique, it is not new and Turing adds hardware that help accelerate TSS.
The hardware feature behind everything is sampler feedback, not TSS.
No, sampler feedback is again another software feature enabled by other hardware. Just like variable rate shading is a software feature but Turing and RDNA 2 have hardware to support them natively.

You two are talking in circles, essentially saying the same thing but saying the other person is wrong.
 
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Seemingly sounds like the workload is culled before it even gets that far. Wonder how many TERRORFLOPS it saves and ram bandwidth.

Primitive shaders will be a game changer in regards to the amount of objects in the viewpoint at any given second. Combined with procedural rendering, and we shouldn't have to worry about seeing 20 versions of the same rock on screen at once.
 
A lot of people still don’t understand the evolutionary differences of XSX and PS5.

Comparing kraken and BCPack is irrelevant because with Sony having removed all surrounding bottlenecks means that task performs 100 times faster and not just that task either but all of them.

XSX is still using the traditional method of loading a game, decompressing textures, everything before the game starts.

PS5 has flipped everything upside down and does everything in less than a second on the fly. You turn your character, it decompresses, it maps, it does everything required to generate the scene in under a second.

The fast travel is also quoted as being so fast due to this new practice that it feels unnatural and they’ve had to implement pauses.

These consoles may have similar hardware but they are operating very differently.
Yes. Just In Time Processing Cerny calls it.
GPU has less overhead to worry about and can focus on absolute highest quality detail without penalty.
 

psorcerer

Banned
It doesn't work like you're thinking. Don't forget Xbox has a new compression system specifically designed for gpu textures that compresses GPU textures down to 50%+ their original size. GPU textures are responsible for most of a game's size. In fact, the lion's share.

Xbox Series X also has a fully custom streaming system designed for the series x that makes irrelevant all this copy stuff you're referring to. Instead of loading entire textures into physical memory like the PS5 intends to do at high speeds, Xbox will simply do something potentially a lot better and may actually turn out to be even faster with additional benefits on top of that. It will only load the section of the texture that's actually visible in the scene. As Microsoft put it, usually the largest mip of a 4K texture is often 8MB and often more. But if they only need to 25% of the largest mip, that data that would be brought into RAM goes from a potential full 8MB or more down to just 2MB. Imagine all the physical RAM savings this can create across a game. Microsoft is flat out calling Sampler Feedback Streaming a game changer because it will add a multiplying effect to how physical memory is used, upwards of 2x-3x (and in some cases higher) they've stated. But the benefit doesn't stop there. If you are copying way less, much smaller pieces of texture data into physical RAM, it also means you are getting significantly more bang for your buck from your SSD performance, too. If you're copying much less data in general, that's a win, win. Devs usually want as much ram as possible so they don't need to do any copying at all. Series X appears to have a custom built feature that actually comes the closest to achieving this without a much larger jump in available system RAM.

So to reiterate an example you just gave about game sizes being smaller on PS5, that may not be the case at all. Then again, if devs want, due to all the extra RAM they may end up saving due to Sampler Feedback Streaming, they may opt to use even higher quality textures on series x, possibly producing higher quality textures than what may be possible on the PS5 side of things, if only cause they know they can get away with only loading in 25% of the texture.

And just to confirm, though Sampler Feedback may be a supported RDNA2 and even Nvidia Turing feature, Sampler Feedback Streaming isn't actually a standard RDNA2 feature that will automatically be found in all RDNA2 GPUs. That along with all the parts of Xbox Velocity Architecture are custom to Xbox Series X. Sony has a beast of an SSD, but it looks to me like Sony's solution is more based on the raw speed of that SSD whereas Microsoft has taken numerous steps to try and change the way the work is actually carried out. Sampler Feedback Streaming looks more revolutionary than just a plain faster SSD. Basically both Sony and Microsoft have approached the goal in two different ways.



Stanard is a Graphics Optimization R&D & Engine Architect at Microsoft.





SFS is a software. The hardware support is standard for RDNA2.
I.e. PS5 will have all the same features if they bother to write a software for it.
But overall they will rely on game developers to use their own methods for texture streaming, that are more game-specific. And not "one size fits all" MSFT approach. As usual.
 
That's good question why MS need VRS in first place if there's GE in RDNA2? maybe GE is just for sony because MS would be talked about GE long ago if they would have it. but i don't really know just guesing.

Little Joe: The PS5 is amazing
Little Dictator: Whatever, mate, but it does not have VRS.

So, yes. There is a real chance that what you are pointing out is the case.

It is the same BS that MS is pushing with the "Virtual Memory". Pure marketing.

They are even claiming a sort of patent on VRS to make it even more confuse and exclusive.

:messenger_tears_of_joy:👇

JT6u4l7.jpg
 
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kensama

Member
Little Joe: The PS5 is amazing
Little Dictator: Whatever, mate, but it does not have VRS.

So, yes. There is a real chance that what you are pointing out is the case.

It is the same BS that MS is pushing with the "Virtual Memory". Pure marketing.

They are even claiming a sort of patent on VRS to make it even more confuse and exclusive.

:messenger_tears_of_joy:👇

JT6u4l7.jpg


That's weird cause how MS can patent a technology like VRS that was not created by them?
We are agree that it comes from NVIDIA for RTX card no?
 

mitchman

Gold Member
Any suggestions for HQ/Lossless audio connection for headphones in consoles, is the quality of wireless headsets like WH-1000XM3 up to par
You won't find wireless lossless headphones, but there are a few support high def codecs, of which the XM3 is likely the best one with noise cancellation. aptX-HD and such, look for support for those.
Do hdmi eArc amps exist or just usb?
Yes, many support it and have received it via firmware upgrades the last few months. It does not require full HDMI 2.1. I use it for some devices from my TV to my receiver.
 

FranXico

Member
Little Joe: The PS5 is amazing
Little Dictator: Whatever, mate, but it does not have VRS.

So, yes. There is a real chance that what you are pointing out is the case.

It is the same BS that MS is pushing with the "Virtual Memory". Pure marketing.

They are even claiming a sort of patent on VRS to make it even more confuse and exclusive.

:messenger_tears_of_joy:👇

JT6u4l7.jpg
"Our form of VRS". Strange to refer to a form of something that is supposedly exclusive to them.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
It doesn't work like you're thinking. Don't forget Xbox has a new compression system specifically designed for gpu textures that compresses GPU textures down to 50%+ their original size. GPU textures are responsible for most of a game's size. In fact, the lion's share.

Xbox Series X also has a fully custom streaming system designed for the series x that makes irrelevant all this copy stuff you're referring to. Instead of loading entire textures into physical memory like the PS5 intends to do at high speeds, Xbox will simply do something potentially a lot better and may actually turn out to be even faster with additional benefits on top of that. It will only load the section of the texture that's actually visible in the scene. As Microsoft put it, usually the largest mip of a 4K texture is often 8MB and often more. But if they only need to 25% of the largest mip, that data that would be brought into RAM goes from a potential full 8MB or more down to just 2MB. Imagine all the physical RAM savings this can create across a game. Microsoft is flat out calling Sampler Feedback Streaming a game changer because it will add a multiplying effect to how physical memory is used, upwards of 2x-3x (and in some cases higher) they've stated. But the benefit doesn't stop there. If you are copying way less, much smaller pieces of texture data into physical RAM, it also means you are getting significantly more bang for your buck from your SSD performance, too. If you're copying much less data in general, that's a win, win. Devs usually want as much ram as possible so they don't need to do any copying at all. Series X appears to have a custom built feature that actually comes the closest to achieving this without a much larger jump in available system RAM.

So to reiterate an example you just gave about game sizes being smaller on PS5, that may not be the case at all. Then again, if devs want, due to all the extra RAM they may end up saving due to Sampler Feedback Streaming, they may opt to use even higher quality textures on series x, possibly producing higher quality textures than what may be possible on the PS5 side of things, if only cause they know they can get away with only loading in 25% of the texture.

And just to confirm, though Sampler Feedback may be a supported RDNA2 and even Nvidia Turing feature, Sampler Feedback Streaming isn't actually a standard RDNA2 feature that will automatically be found in all RDNA2 GPUs. That along with all the parts of Xbox Velocity Architecture are custom to Xbox Series X. Sony has a beast of an SSD, but it looks to me like Sony's solution is more based on the raw speed of that SSD whereas Microsoft has taken numerous steps to try and change the way the work is actually carried out. Sampler Feedback Streaming looks more revolutionary than just a plain faster SSD. Basically both Sony and Microsoft have approached the goal in two different ways.



Stanard is a Graphics Optimization R&D & Engine Architect at Microsoft.





Well, you know that 22GB/s is 75% out of 5.5GB/s? So the the gap remains the same. With 8-9GB/s being average on PS5, and 4.8GB/s being average on XSX if we take them as they are presented in the PR talk, waiting to see those in action to know who's more accurate. If you're using a game that's optimized for PS5 you have 3 choices:

-Have lesser quality duplicates to load before loading the higher quality (pop-ins)=might affect game size or performance.
-Preload more data on CPU/GPU to compensate for less speed=might affect performance.
-Have it as it is and enjoy black or empty spaces when you turn in a rapid speed.
 
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That's weird cause how MS can patent a technology like VRS that was not created by them?
We are agree that it comes from NVIDIA for RTX card no?
"Our form of VRS". Strange to refer to a form of something that is supposedly exclusive to them.

What I have read here is that the patent refers to their own VRS sofware implementation. I dont know.

What I am certain is that it is written to confuse little Joes. "Patent" sounds exclusive!
 
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Well, you know that 22GB/s is 75% out of 5.5GB/s? So the the gap remains the same. With 8-9GB/s being average on PS5, and 4.8GB/s being average on XSX if we take them as they are presented in the PR talk, waiting to see those on action to know who's more accurate. If you're using a game that's optimized for PS5 you have 3 choices:

-Have lesser quality duplicates to load before loading the higher quality (pop-ins)=might effect game size or performance.
-Preload more data on CPU/GPU to compensate for less speed=might effect performance.
-Have it as it is and enjoy black or empty spaces when you turn in a rapid speed.

Comparing LOD in the 3 or 4 frames following a quick turn will be the new grass counting. Can't wait. :messenger_tears_of_joy: Of course, if a dev uses a lower quality texture and reconstructs to a higher quality in real time, that muddies the waters.
 

Kenpachii

Member
I know that we shouldn’t compare pc to consoles, but still, this is some interesting analysis.


More memory gets used if its available so his whole rtss read outs are kinda useless to see what a game really needs.

Also the games he picks aren't heavy on memory so that's also a thing he doesn't really take into account.

Anyway comparing this for next generation doesn't work because it could very well be that next generation SSD usage will up the memory needed on PC space drastically. I could see 64gb be the standard next generation with 128gb being the higher end. But it could also mean we will see barely any movement on it. It all depends what devs will do.
 
More memory gets used if its available so his whole rtss read outs are kinda useless to see what a game really needs.

Also the games he picks aren't heavy on memory so that's also a thing he doesn't really take into account.

Anyway comparing this for next generation doesn't work because it could very well be that next generation SSD usage will up the memory needed on PC space drastically. I could see 64gb be the standard next generation with 128gb being the higher end. But it could also mean we will see barely any movement on it. It all depends what devs will do.
Nah.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
pretty much astro in a nutshell barely decent quality cans sold as premium top tier audio. I hate them as much as i hate beats audio.

You seem like you've tried many headsets. Did you try the PS Platinum headset? How about WH-1000XM3? Do you suggest something better? I'm more aiming for the new WH-1000XM4 when it comes out, or buy WH-1000XM3 in a good deal (was about to get it with Xperia 1 bundle before I heard of the announcement of new Xperia 1ii).
 
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Not only little joe but all people

New patents that alter specific details of existing ideas are ordinary to say the least. How many patents are there for a game controller? You could say how did they patent controller X when controller Y was already patented, etc. People don't really care, tbh. I assume MS's VRS implementation is different than Nvidia's in ways that were distinct enough for the patent.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
MS patenting VRS is like me trying to patent my dick to fool women into thinking I've got the only penis on the planet.

"My patented form of Penis empowers me to efficiently utilize the full power my cock. Rather than wasting precious strokes thrusting in and out, my penis vibrates and expands once inside a female vagina. This allows for greater framerates and resolution than the PS5 which is using a narrow and fast pencil of a penis."
 
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draliko

Member
You seem like you've tried many headsets. Did you try the PS Platinum headset? How about WH-1000XM3? Do you suggest something better? I'm more aiming for the new WH-1000XM4 when it comes out, or buy WH-1000XM3 in a good deal (was about to get them with Xperia 1 before I heard the announcement of new Xperia 1ii).
I did try a few, more cans than headsets actually, because it's really hard to find a good headset for consoles, on pc you go with an antlion mod mic and the best headphones you can afford eventually pairing them with a good dac/amp or decent sound card. I'll sincerely wait to see if they support aptxhd or similar and what kind of virtual surround headphones will be present on next gen, not worth investing now IMHO. Platinum were nice, nothing exceptional but better than most other headsets.

And if you have time to spare go over to head-fi.org as suggested, probably one of the best places around for this stuff, but be warned you're entering a dangerous territory, a costly hobby :) (I already spend all my money on mtbs can't afford another luxurious hobby😂)
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
microsoft is not at all serene despite the 12tf.

''I personally think we have...'' that means they're still not sure.


“I Think We Have the Better Console”

Translation: We don't know.

“We’re not worried about the power narrative,” says Microsoft’s Bill Stillwell.

Translation: We are worried.

“I think what you saw [with the PS5 reveal] was the unfortunate by-product of a GDC talk being turned into a marketing event,” said Stillwell.

Translation: It's beating our misleading marketing.

“I loved Sony’s talk, I think they’ve got some cool tech. I personally think we have a better console, we’re not worried about the power narrative.”

Translation: I hate Sony, I think they've got a shit console. But I personally know jack shit if our 12TF console is better, and I'm worried about losing the power narrative.

Translation machine used:

81sBnNDU-fL._AC_SL1500_.jpg
 
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CrysisFreak

Banned
After discovering the "Moore's Law Is Dead" YouTube channel and I watched his vids on PS5 and Series X and they're quite informative.
Underlining that the PS5 SSD is not just about loading, it's actually not about loading at all, there is no loading, it's about other things and it will in fact help rendering (I sure hope so).
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
I did try a few, more cans than headsets actually, because it's really hard to find a good headset for consoles, on pc you go with an antlion mod mic and the best headphones you can afford eventually pairing them with a good dac/amp or decent sound card. I'll sincerely wait to see if they support aptxhd or similar and what kind of virtual surround headphones will be present on next gen, not worth investing now IMHO. Platinum were nice, nothing exceptional but better than most other headsets.

And if you have time to spare go over to head-fi.org as suggested, probably one of the best places around for this stuff, but be warned you're entering a dangerous territory, a costly hobby :) (I already spend all my money on mtbs can't afford another luxurious hobby😂)

Thanks a lot, mate! I better wait indeed, and the "PS Platinum" was a bait to test if you're an extremist audiophile or someone I can relate to :lollipop_tears_of_joy: So seems like you can survive with lesser quality headsets:messenger_winking_tongue:(y) I'll continue using Astro A40 (shit bass, good sound quality overall) with the mixer (unless it's ditched then I'll probably use it for PC or just see if DualSense can provide enough quality without the mixer).

Appreciate your input!
 

sircaw

Banned
After discovering the "Moore's Law Is Dead" YouTube channel and I watched his vids on PS5 and Series X and they're quite informative.
Underlining that the PS5 SSD is not just about loading, it's actually not about loading at all, there is no loading, it's about other things and it will in fact help rendering (I sure hope so).

He does state that this all could be incredible or it could all be bullshit until we see it in action.

I have read alot of stuff and watched alot videos from these tech people talking about their insiders and some third party game developers they have spoken to.

Even reading these forums and listening to the technical people here my expectations are huge/high, i just hope ps5 delivers on what it looks like will be truly revolutionary.

I do believe in Mark Cerny vision just hope i am grounding myself at the same time.
 

ethomaz

Banned
See I knew that's what he meant, but people took it to be confirmation of VRS.


VRS can be done in primitive shaders (Geometry Engine).
In fact looking at AMD patent it can be used in any step of the pipeline after the first frame was done (it needs render one frame because the Shader Rate is defined at Rasterizarion step to be used in the subsequents frames render).
 
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