Gamernyc78
Banned
Let's not forget the stats tht say most pc rigs/gamers arent running shit at 4k, thts a small pc gaming demographic. But you know in here everyone has an Uber powerful pc rig.
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pawel86ck
Banned
More power efficient compared to first gen navi, that's exactly what I wanted to hearNext-gen here we come.
AMD To Introduce 2nd Generation rDNA Based Navi GPU Powered Radeon RX Lineup at CES 2020 With Ray Tracing & More
AMD's next-generation rDNA powered Navi GPUs for the Radeon RX lineup will apparently make the first appearance at CES 2020.wccftech.com
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Gamernyc78
Banned
Burnt tht a console coming over a year later, a little after mid Gen and priced higher was more powerful? Are you serious. No I know you don't believe tht. Sony did exactly what thy wanted to do and tht was having the better priced and stronger console in the beginning. Microsoft was burnt tht Sony pulled the rokey doke on them with the better memory right before release of the og consoles thus dominating most of the gen. X was just Microsoft trying to get back into the game a little too late. Sony has always guarded their specs like thy did last Gen and caught microsoft with their pants down so now micro is trying to play tht game while Sony continues to play it.
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pawel86ck
Banned
Not how it works....yet it worked exactly like that when PS4 has launched, because like I have said my GTX 680 was soon VRAM limited.
No current game can use more than 8GB VRAM? So look here, and remember that's still 1440p.
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magnumpy
Member
Not sure why you keep pushing a pro-PC rhetoric in a console-related thread.
Anyway... I suggest to revisit Assassin's Creed Black Flag (2013) vs Assassin's Creed Unity (2014). Maybe then you'll understand why the console dev baseline is a thing.
Yes, you can run Assassin's Creed Black Flag at 4k 60 fps with 16x Anisotropic Filtering (because that's all that matters, right?) and it still won't look nearly as good as Assassin's Creed Unity.
It wasn't always like that though. Games like Far Cry 1 and Crysis 1 weren't tied by console restrictions. I guess you have Star Citizen these days, but that's it. Everything else is a spruced up console port.
umm, that's not true. maybe if your vision is limited by a particular console ecosystem then that is all you can see, so for all you know that is everything that exists. however video games existed long before consoles existed and they will outlive consoles
demigod
Member
That’s a shame.
Xbox Series X exec reveals TRUTH about Microsoft's backwards compatibility plans
Microsoft Game Studios head, Matt Booty, says that the Xbox family of devices won't get left behind next generationwww.t3.com
Not surprised, Halo infinite does not even look next gen.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That’s a shame.
Xbox Series X exec reveals TRUTH about Microsoft's backwards compatibility plans
Microsoft Game Studios head, Matt Booty, says that the Xbox family of devices won't get left behind next generation
No, those games potential will just be held back due to the 1.31TF anchor.
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TLZ
Banned
This v
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A lot of people don't like nor want to bother gaming on PC. It's a convenience thing.
Negotiator
Member
Magnavox Odyssey (1972) vs IBM PC (1981)umm, that's not true. maybe if your vision is limited by a particular console ecosystem then that is all you can see, so for all you know that is everything that exists. however video games existed long before consoles existed and they will outlive consoles
Come again?
VFXVeteran
Banned
If these guys talk about PC and do comparisons, I'm going to speak up. Period.
Anyway... I suggest to revisit Assassin's Creed Black Flag (2013) vs Assassin's Creed Unity (2014). Maybe then you'll understand why the console dev baseline is a thing.
Yes, you can run Assassin's Creed Black Flag at 4k 60 fps with 16x Anisotropic Filtering (because that's all that matters, right?) and it still won't look nearly as good as Assassin's Creed Unity.
You don't know if AC was built on console first. Where is your proof?
It may have been like that a few gens ago, but that's not what's being done now. I have a few folks over at iD Software. They definitely develop on PC first. CDProject RED does the same thing. You know it's the case by deduction if you see higher res textures for the PC. No one is going to draw and paint 1k texture maps and then redraw them again to make 4k maps. That's ridiculous. You create the assets big and you port down.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I never said it wasn't. I meant to say a studio HAS 76G of memory to work with -- whether it's split or not -- if they wanted to with my particular PC. Devkits have way more resources than what the console will have when released. That's the nature of the beast. My example was theoretical. Not factual. If I was going to design a game specific to my PC hardware, I would have 64G of RAM for the CPU and I would load my textures and run my shaders on the GPU.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
CDProject changed their entire renderer due to consoles.
They may build their games on PC, but they don’t outspec their engines to be incapable on consoles like they would if they developed for the top end kit.
Consoles will always be the baseline for mainstream gaming with the PC. Sadly, 1.31 will be MS’s first party baseline anchor, at least early on.
Destiny could have been so much bigger as example, if it didn’t have a last gen anchor, something they admitted.
They may build their games on PC, but they don’t outspec their engines to be incapable on consoles like they would if they developed for the top end kit.
Consoles will always be the baseline for mainstream gaming with the PC. Sadly, 1.31 will be MS’s first party baseline anchor, at least early on.
Destiny could have been so much bigger as example, if it didn’t have a last gen anchor, something they admitted.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Not how it works....yet it worked exactly like that when PS4 has launched, because like I have said my GTX 680 was soon VRAM limited.
No current game can use more than 8GB VRAM? So look here, and remember that's still 1440p.
LOL! I have that game. That 10G is virtual RAM. You don't have that on-board, so you have no idea how much is really being used, That doesn't even make sense. Your OS needs to still have a pointer to the desktop image so unless you show me a mapped memory page where the GPU is using all of it's available memory for the application, let me know.
My point being that effective usable RAM on PC is smaller than on console (for the same physical size). Memory is mapped differently.
FrostyJ93
Member
That’s a shame.
Xbox Series X exec reveals TRUTH about Microsoft's backwards compatibility plans
Microsoft Game Studios head, Matt Booty, says that the Xbox family of devices won't get left behind next generation
I mean duh. Xbox isnt a locked down exclusives box anymore.
I don't get why people cannot accept this. Xbox ain't changing back.
VFXVeteran
Banned
We really need to establish baseline here. If I'm developing a game, I'm going to create assets that dwarf the console. I just proved that logic by deduction on higher res textures that are never seen on console in most multiplat games. I can also turn down everything else easily. You don't see the entire scene in UE4 where you can see what parameter's limits are, whether there are lights that are invisible or turned off, adjusting the shadow maps resolution, etc.. for the consoles. That's how it's done. It's then compiled out for the particular console. It is NOT designed for the very minimum and then they add shit to the scene. That would require relighting, adding more FX, etc.. Most of the additions are going to be sliders that can be done easily. The limit on those sliders aren't going to be spec'd out for consoles. Otherwise, you get a PC game that looks identical to the console.
VFXVeteran
Banned
OK. That's still making what point? PC CAN have way more RAM typically than consoles. That's my point. I have 64G. Memory being mapped differently is fine. It's still going have more usable than the console.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Sigh
bitbydeath
Member
You don’t even need an article to see it. PS4 games are largely 1080P by default. That sets the baseline.
pawel86ck
Banned
And these games also dont use 10GB as indicated ? If measured VRAM is always a lie, so how exactly you have measured VRAM on 8GB card?
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Now for a modern console it's enough to mmap ssd pages directly into gpu memory and your PC is fucked. Dunno if it will be used on PS5 but if it will they can actually mmap the whole ssd into a 64bit address space.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Guys listen, don't get frustrated with Respawn just because your experience is not what you want. The JFO game is incredible and on my machine, it looks like it was meant to look with everything at EPIC settings. Yes, it needs some help with judder. It's no different than W3 when it came out. Give the devs some time. Just know that you will have to wait for next-gen consoles to see the game as you really want to see it. You got another year left. Hold on...
bitbydeath
Member
That’s not what the article was about.
This is stating that Xbox One S will remain as the baseline for Xbox exclusives next-gen and for the foreseeable future.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I don't have 8G, I have 11G. You can use EVGA or whatever graphics utility you have while in the game. I used the actual OpenGL API call when I conducted my test because I wrote the renderer in OpenGL.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Yup. But guess what? I can mmap the entire game into a RAMdisk. Which is faster? SSD or RAM itself?
VFXVeteran
Banned
Resolution doesn't set the baseline. Assets set the baseline. Resolution can be changed without any other tweaks.
Still it's 2 copy operations for any access.
On console: zero copy.
I.e. you're eating your RAM bandwidth and CPU interrupts.
But probably you can dedicate 2 cores to mem copy. But guess what: if DX12 or Vilkan is not smart enough to do it for you: still fucked...
bitbydeath
Member
GPU power sets the baseline and reaching 1080P is a baseline of that power. They can’t just simply up it to 4K minus the assets as it still takes power to do so.
Negotiator
Member
I guess Sony/Bluepoint were lying to us when they said they had to recreate assets (textures, polygons etc.) from scratch for the SotC remake. They already had PS4-quality assets since the PS2 era, it was all a lie.
*sigh*
*sigh*
VFXVeteran
Banned
We are talking about loading a scene into current memory. You are too concerned with CPU/Memory when the real slowdown is in the shaders on the GPU. And no, you have no access to how you are going to control memory managment in a runtime compiled shader setting. The light loop will be your limitation.
He's confusing the art pipeline with the game asset pipeline. Obviously the art pipeline should have as little aliasing as possible, which means very high-res sampling (for sampled assets).
Obviously you do have full control. You can even feed command buffer pieces on console.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I get that but you still don't understand me.
Take this scenario:
Art Director: Let's make some drawings of how JFO will look. Scenary, monsters, environment changes, elements, etc..
Artists: Draw concept artwork (btw, I get the artbook on Tuesday)
Texture artists: Start drawing textures based on what's been approved (create very high res textures for longevitity in being able to scale them down with a simple tool for consoles).
Modeler: Creates the uvs, models, etc.. (here you could target a low end console to make up your polygon budget)
Environment artists: Load up Maya or 3DS Max and start creating terrain, foilage, and placing the models within the graphics renderer
FX artists: Create FX using houdini or whatever, etc..
Tech Artist: write the shaders for all the materials. Include shaders that can be dialed in or out. R&D new techniques that could be incorporated later (hello next-gen or PC)
etc.. etc..
Create a scene with all assets in tow. Downscale as needed and compile to target platform. Run the scene and troubleshoot.
VFXVeteran
Banned
You are twisting my words. Of course they had to remake everything. But you don't see that happening now do you? Did Jedi Fallen Order need to be updated for the PC? How about RDR2? Was that not on the PC and they redid it in less than 6months? Do you think Death Stranding needs to redo all of it's assets and just set dials which will take them 6 months? Is Cyberpunk going to be designed around a low end base console? They already announced PC support so what does that mean when you are developing in tandem like most 3rd part games? Which hardware should be the standard by which you can get all implementations compiled and released at the same time? Why does the PC have enhancements done on Day 1 of release?
VFXVeteran
Banned
Where do you work dude? What company? And what is your title? PM me.
VFXVeteran
Banned
After it's compiled? Really? Why would you want to? What would you be optimizing? What shader? What would be slow? Give me some examples of optimizing memory/shader code that doesn't compile effectively to where you are losing ms.
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Yes pre-compiled.
It's good for synchronization for example to make sure that your asset is not used before the placement.
A lot of frame pacing problems are alleviated by a proper sync. In fact I would say that at least half of the current rt graphics problems are because of a bad sync. Other half is: occupation/register usage.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I was talking about post compile.
I can believe the synchronization issue. Consoles have these issues too.
I still stand behind that all the GPUs are shader limited. I can make a complex shader like real approximation of SSS that would tank any graphics board if I allow the object to occupy the entire screen. You can only optimize your algorithm to a point. Afterwards, you are at the mercy of the implementation. This is what a lot of gamers don't understand about these graphics engines and FPS.
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Pre-compiled = post compile time.
Making a complex shader is a no brainier.
But making something linearized which is still a good approximation is an art.
Essentially non-linear things are non-scalable (latency limited) and non-scalable algorithms are done. Dead end. Moore's law is finished.
VFXVeteran
Banned
What do you mean? You lost me.
An art that's slowly fading away. Good approximations only go but so far. Cube maps = garbage for reflections. SSR = works only for camera in-view scenes. How are you going to implement off screen reflections without ray-tracing? Static light probes = complete inaccurate light leaking (i.e. indoors lighting). Area light BSDF how with approximation? How about more than 1 shadow-casting light? I've been waiting for decades for this. Still hasn't been handled.
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magnumpy
Member
Magnavox Odyssey (1972) vs IBM PC (1981)
Come again?
no problem. pong came out in 1958. tennis for two came out on an DuMont Lab Oscilloscope, predating any console or pc.
care to dig your grave any deeper?
Negotiator
Member
And games came out in 5000 BC in Ancient Mesopotamia.
See? I can play this silly game too, it's not that hard. Care to dig your grave any deeper? Assuming you can go deeper than that...
Just accept the fact that consoles exist long before PCs came out and move on.
I don't really care what you're waiting for.
Scalable non-linear algorithms are not gonna happen. Unless some new computing engines are produced (quantim computers?)
I.e. either you're very slow and accurate, or fast and real-time. Nothing changed. It even becomes worse and worse.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Fixed.
OK. I never said the contrary.
You can call your optimization an "art" all day long, but the proof is in the pudding. Currently, RT games have a long way to go with hardware to get a "better" approximation that can be scalable and look good. We obviously hit a limit with the linear scalable approximations we have now which is why RTX is being introduced.. We can revisit in another decade..
Hawking Radiation
Member
Anything new or interesting regarding the next gen consoles?
Did MS hint anythign at recent X019? Is there new developments on PS5 that have recently been revealed?
Any new insider talk?
ANything
ANYTHING !!!!????!??!?!?!
Did MS hint anythign at recent X019? Is there new developments on PS5 that have recently been revealed?
Any new insider talk?
ANything
ANYTHING !!!!????!??!?!?!
demigod
Member
Nah, this thread has turned to PC vs Console.
Lunatic_Gamer
Member
Um. Sounds promising I guess. Hopefully it won’t be the SJW fest that Odyssey was.
Talking about divisions doesn’t matter to MS like it would Sony. MS views Xbox as a long term investment in branding and living room access. Sony is more motivated by immediate profit. Sony won’t go all out next gen l. They will probably do what they did this gen. Release a strong console without losing money and focus on having strong exclusives.
regardless it will always be MS for access to capital.
nowhat
Member
I mean, that's cool and all - what that has got to do with next gen hardware?
(same goes for you PC guys, get a room)
Audiophile
Gold Member
I hope GTA VI is next-gen only, it'd be horrible to have it held back by those Jaguar CPUs and bog-standard HDDs. If it's cross gen, the fundamentals of the game design and the world simulation will be limited by a crappy netbook CPU and ~50MB/s read speeds with shitty latency and parallelism. It will be more of the same but better looking, I really want to see a truly next gen world that comes alive.
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