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[gamerforever]

You cannot blame cerny, he is doing the best he can with the tools he has. MS just have more resources and better tools and its very clear now.

 

[Reindeer]

You cannot blame cerny, he is doing the best he can with the tools he has. MS just have more resources and better tools and its very clear now.

I think Cerny could have done better, but he was likely told to build a console for $399 and this is the best he could do.

 

[Desodeset]

I m praying they would say they have 4 gb ddr4 for os when talking about os in reveal .haha

Sony traditionally is using additional DDR memory. PS4 Pro has 1 GB DDR3 and total system memory is 9 gb BTW. Or they are gonna use their SSD solution for feeding the OS.

 

[Shmunter]

It streams faster but what would draw the high quality assets in the first place ? The thing has an inferior cpu, an inferior gpu and , up until further notice, slower ram to feed that gpu.

New assets? Streamed in?

I’ll explain best I can. You’re in a room, the whole room is either all in ram, even stuff you don’t see -or- the ram is dedicated to just what you see, you turn around and entire new 8 gig of assets is streamed in. PS5 room = 16gig of assets, XsX = 8gig of assets because it cannot bring 8 gig in time.

Watch Cerney presentation, they have a rudimentary example of this.

 

[CJY]

I think Cerny could have don't better, but he was likely told to build a console for $399 and this is the best he could do.

If he hit that target though, he will have done a good job. It would be an amazing system for $399.

Nothing should be proclaimed before we find out what the price is cos if price weren't an issue and it's all about power, one would just build a PC.

 

[xool]

What's the deal with XbX audio hardware - something about "Project Acoustics"

Project Acoustics' simulation captures these effects using a wave-based simulation. The acoustics are more predictable, accurate and seamless. Project Acoustics' key innovation is to couple real sound wave-based acoustic simulation with traditional sound design concepts. It translates simulation results into traditional audio DSP parameters for occlusion, portaling, and reverb.

(bolded) This sounds like they have an audio DSP - is this still AMD TruAudio ? or what ?

[edit] found this : Xbox Series X has custom audio hardware to offload audio processing from the CPU - not much more details though

I wonder if it's weaker than Sony's solution, like the SSD

 

[Mr Moose]

The DF video did a better job at selling the PS5 to me than the GDC video.
I'm looking forward to seeing what it can do. Same with the Series X, though I'm not an Xbox fan, it's a very nice machine.
These things are going to punch above their weight, the CPUs and SSDs alone are a huge improvement over this gens consoles.
And that audio thing... Gimme that ASMR.

 

[pasterpl]

Wow, ps5 mid gen refresh will be a beast. They will probably do what they did with the pro and double the gpu cu’s to retain backwards compatibility. We will probably be talking 20TF+ in 4 years time.

so ps5 hype train died and now we are starting ps5 pro one?

 

[M-V2]

From what I have gathered on Twitter & YouTube (Devs & digital foundry) the Teraflops aren't the measurement of the performance.

The conclusion I have reached, is that many of people here who are talking about tech they don't know what they are talking about.

 

[Reindeer]

If he hit that target though, he will have done a good job. It would be an amazing system for $399.

Nothing should be proclaimed before we find out what the price is cos if price weren't an issue and it's all about power, one would just build a PC.

I think for $399 (if it is that) this would be the best you can come up with and good value for money, I just think as tech expert and fanatic Cerny would definitely have liked to build a faster machine.

 

[Shio]

real world most games (especially 3rd party) will be using 9.2 tflops, rather than maxing out the boost clocks constantly. so you are looking more at a 31-32% difference in just gpu. Then you have to factor in the extra cpu clocks of the xsx and the 44% more ray tracing capabilities.

you are realistically looking at noticeable difference in resolution, frame rate, and ray tracing quality.

but the ps5 will load the game a fraction of a second faster...

You were so specific on the numbers up to the last point, it's actually more than twice as fast and not a fraction of a second faster

 

[Darius87]

Ok, you're going on ignore, because you clearly have too much time on your hands and are fucking up the thread. but I'll answer this one last time. All my info was sent to Mod of War and he was asked if I could post it, and I did. Getting "vetted" is the same bloody thing. I was a secondary contact who passed on info, and as such all of that was proven. If you want to "vet" me yourself, I've got more than enough shit out there, from games I've worked on, indie titles and the like. Hell, nvidia recently had their head of gaming technologies send me a damn 2080ti for my work on Q2RTX. So please, vet me yourself if you think I've made the whole thing up. But for now? Welcome to the club, enjoy the soup.

finnally don't needed to ask for 3rd time.
my bad i didn't know you're vetted, someone indicated that you're not, that means you're legit even if you're wrong

 

[SportsFan581]

Then why on Earth would Microsoft do that? There must be other benefits for them to use the "mix densities" RAM chips. It doesn't make any sense for them to go that route if it were to lower their effective bus to 192bits from 320bits.

 

[CJY]

I think for $399 (if it is that) this would be the best you can come up with and good value for money, I just think as tech expert and fanatic Cerny would definitely have liked to build a faster machine.

Thing is though, it is fast, it's super fast. Xbox went for power, PS5 went for speed. Higher clocks, faster SSD, more uniform RAM. Both system have pros and cons.

 

[Shio]

New assets? Streamed in?

I’ll explain best I can. You’re in a room, the whole room is either all in ram, even stuff you don’t see -or- the ram is dedicated to just what you see, you turn around and entire new 8 gig of assets is streamed in. PS5 room = 16gig of assets, XsX = 8gig of assets because it cannot bring 8 gig in time.

Watch Cerney presentation, they have a rudimentary example of this.

This is one of those instances i wish they had some kind of demo to show like this is what it looks like using 16GB assets in RAM and this is what we can achieve streaming them in as needed.

 

[Reindeer]

Cerny was also not enthusiastic about ray tracing, which probably means that Rogame is right about Series X having significant better ray tracing. The higher the CU count the better the ray tracing.

 

[Shmunter]

This is one of those instances i wish they had some kind of demo to show like this is what it looks like using 16GB assets in RAM and this is what we can achieve streaming them in as needed.

Considering this is the crowning jewel of the next gen, I’m certain showpieces will be showing up. More so by Sony

 

[Reindeer]

Thing is though, it is fast, it's super fast. Xbox went for power, PS5 went for speed. Higher clocks, faster SSD, more uniform RAM. Both system have pros and cons.

The pros of Series X far outweigh that of PS5 and there's no way about it. Being within 15-20% is still respectable for Sony, especially of they manage to be $100 cheaper. At $399 it would be very tempting for most consumers. The hardware doesn't excite me, but the price might.

 

[Smoke6]

I was there online for the moment, and the general reaction was one of me sat there with my hands on my face. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. It was a classic case of “shut up shut up what are you talking about man!”. It was just a colossal flop, and everybody was talking about it online for weeks afterwards.

It was one of the biggest fuck ups of a console launch I can remember. The PS5 one doesn’t even come close. That’s not to say that Sony haven’t handled this all badly every step of the way, they have. MS have been on total top form with everything so far, from media presence to even making jokes, it’s been perfect. But Sony have been utterly dreadful, which is a massive shame because they have a good product here.

Come E3 (time), all this two of spec will dispense. The games will do the talking.

Man I’m tired of hearing this narrative of MS being in top form because they decided to lay their cards out on the table while you were bored to give you something to talk and brag about for a little while!

that’s not how things work and at this moment in time a lot of us who really wanted to see SONY be Sony are disappointed and the wrong things as this has been Sony the WHOLE TIME!!!

now when games release, none of y’all will be singing these praises and tunes when you’re trying to understand when DF or someone says third party games just run better and out perform MS console as been stated several times that the small different in tflops won’t mean anything if it’s not put together to take advantage of that!

Sony basically made a console that frees up every bit of space to MAKE THE GAME and the odd stuff that’s takes up un needed space has its own space so we can get a total package without hearing about bottlenecks.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... Raytracing is the new bloom, the new env mapping. It will be used EVERYWHERE for reflections and no care given to either a) how they look or b) that it can be used for other things. You will see brick walls with it on, you will see totally matt things with it on. Its going to be crazy.

But give it time, and people will wise up to it being just another *thing*. Give it chance, and developers will start using it in more subtle ways (not just shoving reflections down your throat). Once its used more subtle, you will see performance increase, as well as visuals look better.

Its a new toy, and sadly, when we get new toys, we play with them. A LOT. But we get bored eventually.

 

[MiloPing]

From what I have gathered on Twitter & YouTube (Devs & digital foundry) the Teraflops aren't the measurement of the performance.

The conclusion I have reached, is that many of people here who are talking about tech they don't know what they are they talking about.

So many tech expert here in gaf

 

[pasterpl]

I wonder if moneyhatting wars will be more prominent this gen. E.g Sony throwing money at 3rd party devs to exploit their system as priority etc.

If a game is designed around streaming in assets at 8gig/sec, Then XsX would need to make do with half the quality of said assets, or half framerate, etc.

DF must be licking their chops at the prospects, I wouldn’t blame them.

not necessarily , devs can use some of the this gen tricks (duplicated assets) so xbsex games might be bigger in size, bu xbsex has enough bandwidth to cope. And don’t forget the vrs that ms mentioned.

 

[xool]

New assets? Streamed in?

I’ll explain best I can. You’re in a room, the whole room is either all in ram, even stuff you don’t see -or- the ram is dedicated to just what you see, you turn around and entire new 8 gig of assets is streamed in. PS5 room = 16gig of assets, XsX = 8gig of assets because it cannot bring 8 gig in time.

Watch Cerney presentation, they have a rudimentary example of this.

This is a hell on earth outcome .. PS5 exclusive would have "slow turning" because it takes 1-2 seconds to load the scene behind you .. no one it their right mind thinks this is a good outcome.

The best example is "spiderman can swing 2x as fast on PS5 than Xbox" because streaming is 2x as fast .. that works.

 

[Shio]

Cerny was also not enthusiastic about ray tracing, which probably means that Rogame is right about Series X having significant better ray tracing. The higher the CU count the better the ray tracing.

I am suprised at what sony has shown, it was said they were in development earlier and further along and thus should have had more to show. I have no doubt from the number the Xbox Series X is the more powerful, but what will be interesting is how the devs are able to use the hardware, a game able to take advantage of 90% of a PS5 would look superior to a game taking advantage of 75% of an Xbox Series X. The hardware is there as shown but it's the APIs and software which will dictate how much of that can be used effectively and until we see the games it's all up in the air. Xbox Series X at least have shown that Minecraft RT demo so we know it can only get better from there but PS5 have shown nothing other than an interest such as the developers of Gran Turismo. I suspect we will all be eager to see the first third party game ship on the new consoles, and also alot of pressure on that third party. Maybe some money exchanging hands to ensure that the third party game comes across favourable as alot of peoples decisions will be based on that outcome.

 

[CJY]

The pros of Series X far outweigh that of PS5 and there's no way about it. Being within 15-20% is still respectable for Sony, especially of they manage to be $100 cheaper. At $399 it would be very tempting for most consumers.

I don't agree with you in saying the XSX overall is 10-15% "better" or "faster" than PS5. The SSD is 100% faster in PS5 but it doesn't matter because... reasons?

 

[saintjules]

Mark Cerny finalizing PS5 specs

 

[Shmunter]

This is a hell on earth outcome .. PS5 exclusive would have "slow turning" because it takes 1-2 seconds to load the scene behind you .. no one it their right mind thinks this is a good outcome.

The best example is "spiderman can swing 2x as fast on PS5 than Xbox" because streaming is 2x as fast .. that works.

I think you get it. Just think of all the other possibilities now.

 

[Reindeer]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... Raytracing is the new bloom, the new env mapping. It will be used EVERYWHERE for reflections and no care given to either a) how they look or b) that it can be used for other things. You will see brick walls with it on, you will see totally matt things with it on. Its going to be crazy.

But give it time, and people will wise up to it being just another *thing*. Give it chance, and developers will start using it in more subtle ways (not just shoving reflections down your throat). Once its used more subtle, you will see performance increase, as well as visuals look better.

Its a new toy, and sadly, when we get new toys, we play with them. A LOT. But we get bored eventually.

Don't know, RT makes games like Metro Exodus so much better. Path Tracing absolutely transforms games and gives generational leaps when it comes to lighting, so I'm all for Ray Tracing.

 

[Smoke6]

Prediction: Sony has games lined up exclusive at launch and launch window while MS plays on backwards compatibility for the next 2 years and nothing impressive for a $500 console while Sony can sling PS5’s off the shelf because they have the software readily available for it and during the whole time y’all will be waiting for exclusives from MS!

so no matter how you shake it, Sony is in the best spot right now despite how you’re taking the news of this without even seeing it in action!

 

[Gavin Stevens]

not necessar, devs can use some of the this gen tricks (duplicated assets) so xbsex games might be bigger in size, bu xbsex has enough bandwidth to cope. And don’t forget the vrs that ms mentioned.

Assets were duplicated on disk for this generation because of mechanical seek times. There's no reason any more to do that, and file sizes are not dictated for either machine?

Don't know, RT makes games like Metro Exodus so much better. Path Tracing absolutely transforms games and gives generational leaps when it comes to lighting, so I'm all for Ray Tracing.

When used well, RT is beautiful and works wonders. But like all rendering technology, be it something like ray tracing lighting, shadows, reflections, even a models texture quality or mesh tris density.... The point will always be that you don't notice it. The dream is that you look at things and process it naturally, not that it stands out. It has to look convincing enough that it all blends together.

And sadly, while the Metro devs did a beautiful job of bringing RT to their world... Other devs may not be of the same calibre.

 

[xool]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... Raytracing is the new bloom, the new env mapping. It will be used EVERYWHERE for reflections and no care given to either a) how they look or b) that it can be used for other things. You will see brick walls with it on, you will see totally matt things with it on. Its going to be crazy.

But give it time, and people will wise up to it being just another *thing*. Give it chance, and developers will start using it in more subtle ways (not just shoving reflections down your throat). Once its used more subtle, you will see performance increase, as well as visuals look better.

Its a new toy, and sadly, when we get new toys, we play with them. A LOT. But we get bored eventually.

I've said it before .. Raytracing is going to be the new "HD generation" (360 era) with most games having little or no raytracing because the needed power just isn't there. We'll get it full fat next gen PS6.

 

[Fulcizombie]

New assets? Streamed in?

I’ll explain best I can. You’re in a room, the whole room is either all in ram, even stuff you don’t see -or- the ram is dedicated to just what you see, you turn around and entire new 8 gig of assets is streamed in. PS5 room = 16gig of assets, XsX = 8gig of assets because it cannot bring 8 gig in time.

Watch Cerney presentation, they have a rudimentary example of this.

First of all people should really stop with the watch Cerny stuff, it is annoying esp. after his extremely lacklustre presentation that has people questioning even the simplest things like BC.. Secondly going by your logic the gpu, cpu, Ram e.t.c are secondary stuff, slap an ultra fast ssd and you can have high quality assets filling up the screen. Again I can’t wait for the DF comparison videos to see all the multi games running at double the frame rate or with double the quality of assets on the ps5.
Also what is going to be drawing, creating, powering all these ultra quality assets before the SSD streams them on screen ?

 

[FranXico]

And also I think Sony is going to announce the BC for ps1 - ps3 at later date.

You bet that at the very least, they will do something about it when they see the (lack of) pre-orders.

 

[Fulcizombie]

Prediction: Sony has games lined up exclusive at launch and launch window while MS plays on backwards compatibility for the next 2 years and nothing impressive for a $500 console while Sony can sling PS5’s off the shelf because they have the software readily available for it and during the whole time y’all will be waiting for exclusives from MS!

so no matter how you shake it, Sony is in the best spot right now despite how you’re taking the news of this without even seeing it in action!

Prediction, based on every playstation launch thus far, you will be proven wrong.

 

[CJY]

Variable, dynamic resolutions are become standard this gen and by next gen it will absolutely be the de facto standard across all games and engines. I can't see how the extra GPU power in the XSX will have a tangible impact on games' presentation, particularly at 4K resolutions. 15%-20% can easily be gained through optimisation which comes at the tail end of the development cycle. The way I see it, MS built a powerful PC that doesn't run Windows, but still an amazing piece of hardware for $499, but far less desireable at $599. PS5 is amazing if priced at $399 and less if it were $499.

 

[Reindeer]

I don't agree with you in saying the XSX overall is 10-15% "better" or "faster" than PS5. The SSD is 100% in PS5 but it doesn't matter because... reasons?

I didn't say 10-15% difference, I said 15-20%. SSD in no way will make up the difference in CPU and GPU power. PS5 SSD no matter how fast it is is too slow to be used as virtual ram, something people think where it will make up the difference. We already see how faster SSDs over slower ones improve when on PCs when it comes to workload. Also, PS5 at base clocks is probably 20-25% slower than Series X, so it will likely help little bit to make that difference a bit smaller, but not by much. The SSD is mainly there to reduce load times and make things like fast travel better in games.

 

[-kb-]

Cerny was also not enthusiastic about ray tracing, which probably means that Rogame is right about Series X having significant better ray tracing. The higher the CU count the better the ray tracing.

Raytracing like most things in the GPU is tied not just to CU count but also the clock speed, the difference in raytracing performance will be similar to that of the difference in the TFLOPs. So the XSX raytracing will be ~10-20% faster if its the same between the two.

 

[saintjules]

 

[CJY]

I didn't say 10-15% difference, I said 15-20%. SSD in no way will make up the difference in CPU and GPU power. PS5 SSD no matter how fast it is is too slow to be used as virtual ram, something people think where it will make up the difference. We already see how little faster SSDs over slower ones improve when on PCs when it comes to workload. Also, PS5 at base clocks is probably 20-25% slower than Series X, so it will likely help little bit to make that difference a bit smaller, but not by much. The SSD is mainly there to reduce load times and make things like fast travel better in games.

OK 15-20%. Difference how? and so fucking what? You could be paying 15-20% more too.

Xbox are literally the only ones who came out and said their SSD can be used as virtual RAM, why don't you have anything to say about that?

Fact is, they can both be used as virtual RAM. Evan mechanical HDs can be used as Virtual RAM, so to say PS5 can't is just fucking stupid.

You've been making stupid, dumb assumptions for a while now and your bias is clear. I reckon you should take a break, because it's getting old fast.

 

[gamerforever]

MS cut out tens of millions of costs from not having to design the console. That box would not have required much costs on design. I am thinking that the Series X may even cost less than PS5. I suspect Sony want to price their console at £500, but will wait for MS and will match it.

 

[Spreewaldgurke]

Sorry but I'm worse, and my family too, so I'll make a general answer. If you can do me a favor, if someone asks something that is answered in this answer, please answer me with a link to this answer. If the answer is not answered I will answer as I can.

Go for it.

(start response 7:05 am)

Maybe my translations are not always correct, but when have I said what I highlight in bold?

One thing is the theoretical number and another thing is the difference, in practice, between the systems. The numbers are very good for Marketing. And yes, it is true, the specifications are what they are (although I do not agree that RAM plays in favor of XsX, rather the opposite). But at the Hardware level, in practice, it is the generation that has the least difference between one and the other. And what MC did yesterday didn't seem to imply that. That was my analysis. Regarding your question, there is a lot of custom hardware that compensates for the small difference. And above all (by historical analysis) games. That's what history is about. If people want to continue buying a system for its "power" it is in its right, but in my modest opinion it is a mistake. It was in the past and it is even more so now. The system should be purchased based on the games you want to play. The difference in quality between the multis will be negligible (or should be in practice), I would even dare to say that in practice we will see more multis from XsX weighing down PS5 than vice versa.

Of course, DF will never have problems finding differences. They live on that.

On the other hand, there are things that have not been said or have not been explored (by both sides).

Regarding the gif (which surely more than one will ask me) the pact with the devil were two factors. SSD first. I think you still have no idea what an SSD that loads 2GB in 0.27s means. Not only useful for load times, but for many more things. Sony's breakthrough in VR in terms of photorealism and immersion. There are more things that I can not comment on, but basically it really depends on the developers.

(end response 11:13 am) that is the seriousness of the situation

Do you think that a 1st party developer for XSX who can optimize a game just for this console will use all the raw power of XBX to surpass the faster SSD advantage of PS5?
And is the faster SSD really the reason where a developer can create things not possible on the SSD from XSX?
Like complete freedom in level creating.
Hope you feel better soon. Greetings from Germany

 

[01011001]

From what I have gathered on Twitter & YouTube (Devs & digital foundry) the Teraflops aren't the measurement of the performance.

they are if you compare identical architectures

they are a very good indication.

 

[Mod of War]

so why sending infos to mods everytime rather to get vetted? is that much of a difference? others got banned for pretending to be insiders with theyr infos, i'm just curious why not you?

Knock off your backseat moderating, right now.

Everyone else, push the limits and thread and account bans will be issued instantly.

Act like we're playing.

 

[Smoke6]

Prediction, based on every playstation launch thus far, you will be proven wrong.

Bookmark this!!!

there hasn’t been a generation where a new console didn’t have exclusive launch titles to showcase there games!

dunno what you’re smoking dude but damn it’s not the good shit! I’m in it for the games and Sony has that in spades and we’re getting for now the best of both worlds with back compatible games and mainly the ones that are just about to release and the new slew of exclusive games at launch!

so for all of us who wants to wait and see what differences it will make for those latest released games or the ones were are currently playing that needs help, this is very good if it works!

but please be open minded, this warrior loyalty shit is old man, and Sony ecosystem is just much more polished and profound!

 

[Reindeer]

Raytracing like most things in the GPU is tied not just to CU count but also the clock speed, the difference in raytracing performance will be similar to that of the difference in the TFLOPs. So the XSX raytracing will be ~10-20% faster if its the same between the two.

If the AMD solution is similar to Nvidia then you would mainly be limited by how many of these ray tracing cores you can fit on a chip, so bigger CU count is the most important factor. We should find out about RDNA2 implementation when AMD gives us more info. For now all I saw was Microsoft bragging about ray tracing while Cerny just brushed it aside.

 

[Dodkrake]

As said yesterday, and it looks like I may be right, the "secret sauce" is the customization gone into the chips, with whole co-processors designed to eliminated bottlenecking.

 

[Fake]

I find curious Cerny don't mention any measure to reduce input lag or he mention?

Because Sony Bravia are the worst in that departament. They seen don't care about that. Or at least make a special Bravia TV for PS5 with that in mind.

 

[geordiemp]

New assets? Streamed in?

I’ll explain best I can. You’re in a room, the whole room is either all in ram, even stuff you don’t see -or- the ram is dedicated to just what you see, you turn around and entire new 8 gig of assets is streamed in. PS5 room = 16gig of assets, XsX = 8gig of assets because it cannot bring 8 gig in time.

Watch Cerney presentation, they have a rudimentary example of this.

Yeah I get it the issue is will 3rd party devs other than Sony studios use it ? Unless of course its almost good enough on SX then yes they will.

 

[pawel86ck]

Just watched Good Old Gamer's video and he pretty said the obvious, that you cannot store any serious game data in SSD because of how slow it is compared to GDDR6. SSD is mainly there to eliminate load times and make certain less demanding data accessible faster.

SDD doesn't need to be as fast as RAM in order to make a huge difference, because it can still stream drastically more data compared to HDD. According to MS pysical memory will be used 2-3x efficiently now, and it's probably even bigger win on PS5 (4.8 GB streaming speed on XSX vs 8.5 GB on PS5)

Developers are very excited

 

[twerkitout]

It's interesting to look at the different design decisions both Sony and MS made. It's clear that Sony had different 'hardpoints' that they had to meet in their design.
I think Sony had an upper limit of $399 for price (Sony wants to move players to PS5 'at a Scale and Pace That We've Never Delivered on Before') and I think they wanted a similar shape/size to the PS4Pro (or an evolution from that design).

MS clearly wanted to the 'Most Powerful' console and their hardpoint was solely an upper limit of price at $499.

There are two very clear value propositions:
Sony - We provide the best cost/benefit
MS - We have the most powerful/fastest console.

I'd be very surprised if the Sony PS5 is offered anywhere above $399. If MS is willing to eat more of a loss, they could make this gen very interesting but I don't expect them to.