THE:MILKMAN
Member
Ooh, insider drama. Someone get on the blower to Harry Hill as there is about to be a fight.
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Rumor: PS5 Pro Codenamed "Trinity" targeting Late 2024 (some alleged specs leaked)
- Thread starter MisterXDTV
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Ooh, insider drama. Someone get on the blower to Harry Hill as there is about to be a fight.
Bry0
Member
Wel of course, a gpu doesn’t have to worry about the same thermal and power constraints, one of those gpus alone is using more power than an entire ps5 SOC
Loxus
Member
Take a look at the 7900XTX die shot above.
This labels each GPU unit appropriately.
Notice each Shader Engine has an even amount of WGP.
8WGP pre Shader Engine on the 7900XTX.
66CUs / 33WGP is not possible.
72CUs / 36WGP is the next step up from 60CUs / 30WGP if using 3 Shader Engines.
Disabling 12CU/6WGP is a huge waste of die space.
The only way I can see PS5 Pro having 60CUs active, is if Sony keep the chips that have no less than 36 good CUs for the PS5.
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Physiognomonics
Member
Based on Kepler hints the PS5 will very likely be very similar to the soon to be released RX 7800 with 1 SE disabled making it 60/60 CUs (well actually 60/80).
What's very interesting is the 7800 is a RDNA3 GPU (using 5nm) with 4 Shader Arrays (but Sony will have to deactivate one SE for yields) with a game clock of 2.6ghz (so about 20 tflops with 3 SEs) and that can be clocked up to 2.8ghz. But I don't think Sony will clock it that high, I think they won't go over 2.6ghz.
Its memory is 18gpb/s GDDR6 (with a 256bit bus) so the same PS5 Pro is rumored to have. The only thing I wonder is about Infinity cache.
EDIT: I did a few mistake as the 7800 is already the 60 CUs variant (with supposedly 1 SE deactivated).
www.techpowerup.com
What's very interesting is the 7800 is a RDNA3 GPU (using 5nm) with 4 Shader Arrays (but Sony will have to deactivate one SE for yields) with a game clock of 2.6ghz (so about 20 tflops with 3 SEs) and that can be clocked up to 2.8ghz. But I don't think Sony will clock it that high, I think they won't go over 2.6ghz.
Its memory is 18gpb/s GDDR6 (with a 256bit bus) so the same PS5 Pro is rumored to have. The only thing I wonder is about Infinity cache.
EDIT: I did a few mistake as the 7800 is already the 60 CUs variant (
AMD Radeon RX 7800 XT Specs
AMD Navi 32, 2430 MHz, 3840 Cores, 240 TMUs, 96 ROPs, 16384 MB GDDR6, 2438 MHz, 256 bit
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TheRedRiders
Member
Beat me to it, Keplar is suggesting the Pro will be in the region of a 7800 in terms of raster performance.Based on Kepler hints the PS5 will very likely be very similar to the soon to be released RX 7800 with 1 SE disabled making it 60/60 CUs (well actually 60/80).
What's very interesting is the 7800 is a RDNA3 GPU (using 5nm) with 4 Shader Arrays (but Sony will have to deactivate one SE for yields) with a game clock of 2.6ghz (so about 20 tflops with 3 SEs) and that can be clocked up to 2.8ghz. But I don't think Sony will clock it that high, I think they won't go over 2.6ghz.
Its memory is 18gpb/s GDDR6 (with a 256bit bus) so the same PS5 Pro is rumored to have. The only thing I wonder is about Infinity cache.
AMD Radeon RX 7800 XT Specs
AMD Navi 32, 2430 MHz, 3840 Cores, 240 TMUs, 96 ROPs, 16384 MB GDDR6, 2438 MHz, 256 bit
EDIT : Also important to note that it'll be RDNA 3.5 which it self is plucking features from RDNA 4, and Keplar also mentioned that the Pro will pluck RT features from RDNA 4. Once again, Cerny going for a heavily customised chip.
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Kenpachii
Member
they will just drop a 3,5 chip in there or even rdna4. Have double the performance over the base ps5, and work with fsr3.
FS3.0 will result in games moving from 30 fps to 60 fps and work around cpu limitations, 2x performance increase and rt increase can be used for higher resolution or better settings.
FS3.0 will result in games moving from 30 fps to 60 fps and work around cpu limitations, 2x performance increase and rt increase can be used for higher resolution or better settings.
TheRedRiders
Member
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
But the rx7800 xt supposedly is going to have 60 CU,so basically that half of that block diagram with with 20 total CUs like the Pro if real,for desktop I don't see why AMD couldn't add 2 more CU in each shader engine to 66.
Take a look at the 7900XTX die shot above.
This labels each GPU unit appropriately.
Notice each Shader Engine has an even amount of WGP.
8WGP pre Shader Engine on the 7900XTX.
66CUs / 33WGP is not possible.
72CUs / 36WGP is the next step up from 60CUs / 30WGP if using 3 Shader Engines.
Disabling 12CU/6WGP is a huge waste of die space.
The only way I can see PS5 Pro having 60CUs active, is if Sony keep the chips that have no less than 36 good CUs for the PS5.
I can understand if that's going to be impossible on the PRO because of the extras cache that is going to be in the CPU. The rumored GCD for 7800xt is supposedly 200mm and 346 total with the MCDs.
Loxus
Member
I still think you don't understand how important die space is.Based on Kepler hints the PS5 will very likely be very similar to the soon to be released RX 7800 with 1 SE disabled making it 60/60 CUs (well actually 60/80).
What's very interesting is the 7800 is a RDNA3 GPU (using 5nm) with 4 Shader Arrays (but Sony will have to deactivate one SE for yields) with a game clock of 2.6ghz (so about 20 tflops with 3 SEs) and that can be clocked up to 2.8ghz. But I don't think Sony will clock it that high, I think they won't go over 2.6ghz.
Its memory is 18gpb/s GDDR6 (with a 256bit bus) so the same PS5 Pro is rumored to have. The only thing I wonder is about Infinity cache.
AMD Radeon RX 7800 XT Specs
AMD Navi 32, 2430 MHz, 3840 Cores, 240 TMUs, 96 ROPs, 16384 MB GDDR6, 2438 MHz, 256 bit
Disabling an entire shader engine in a console is madness.
Also, the 7800 only has 3 Shader Engines.
AMD's RDNA 3 Graphics
Navi32
- gfx1101 (Wheat Nas)
- Chiplet - 1x GCD + 4x MCD (0-hi)
- 30 WGP (60 legacy CUs, 7680 ALUs)
- 3 Shader Engines / 6 Shader Arrays
- Infinity Cache 64MB (0-hi)
- 256-bit GDDR6
- GCD on TSMC N5, ~200 mm²
- MCD on TSMC N6, ~37.5 mm²
7800 = 60CU
7700 XT = 54CUs, 6CUs disabled
7700 = 48CUs, 12CUs disabled
This is the reason why compute units are disabled.
Tools may unlock disabled compute units of AMD ‘Fiji’, other GPUs
Modern graphics processing units are extremely complex devices, which are exceptionally hard to manufacture. Because some of their execution units are defective, they are usually disabled during testing and packaging process. However, in many cases GPU developers also disable fully-functional units just to get a GPU configured for a particular graphics card.
I think you are partly correct about disabling an entire shader engine though, but for PS5 instead.
I kinda like the idea of Sony making one chip for both PS5 and PS5 Pro.
bender
What time is it?
Loxus
Member
First of all, CUs must be paired which makes a WGP.
Added one more WGP to a Shader Engine would leave a blank space where another WGP would be.
It would not make sense to have a blank space when you can just at another WGP. Your wasting die space leaving it blank.
Physiognomonics
Member
I understand about deactivating stuff for yields. But Kepler is really hinting that it's going to be similar to the 7800 with 60 CUs. And he clearly stated SEs needed to be symmetrical which is really specific.
Loxus
Member
He's correct, both PS5 Pro and 7800 have 60 CUs but PS5 Pro would have 54 active like the 7700 XT.
54 CUs follow Sony consoles. 18+18+18.
Aiming for 60CUs would be wasting money on wafers.
Sony would get more PS5 Pros with 54CUs active pre wafer than with 60CUs active.
You have to remember Sony will be producing millions of PS5 Pro chips.
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So its skipping the most important improvements which were sorely needed for the rt bump and ml...damn this is looking like an underwhelming upgrade.
TheRedRiders
Member
Luckily it seems like the Pro is plucking the RT cores from RDNA 4 anyway so I'm not complaining.
Wait i thought ps5 pro was rdna3.5 hence it skipping the rt cores etc, cerny better pull off some efficiency magic otherwise yeah this thing will make the ps4 pro look like a real upgrade in comparison.
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Are you referring to dedicated hardware like Nvidia or Intel? Because the could run ML data on the shader like the PS5,as for ray tracing,it could be the RDNA2 version or the same as that Mark Cerny patent.
Physiognomonics
Member
No. Here he defines RDNA 3.5. Elsewhere his implying about PS5 Pro being RDNA 3.5 + RT from RDNA 4.
Physiognomonics
Member
On paper it looks that way. But remember that PS5, being a puny 2070 on paper, can perform like a 3060, 3070 (or 2080 super) in some games when optimized. It's going to be the same for PS5 Pro and with much better RT.
Imagine what Insomniac are going to do with that new RT hardware. Even now their implementation of reflections on PS5 are better than on PC (at least in Ratchet). In the end it's about software and insomniac are currently the king in that area. I am also impatient to see Guerrilla upcoming games with hopefully RT this time on Pro.
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Yes its clear that dedicated hardware is the way forward and despite amd desperately trying to wriggle away from it, the fact is to be competitive with its competitors they have to adopt it aswell hence rdna4 roadmap. Running it on the shader and cus alone is a halfmeasure and the cause of amds embarassing performances in rt and ml workloads.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Aren't we also about to hit the physical limits on that? I remember hearing years ago that electrons jumping the lanes was becoming a real issue at these small production nodes. Maybe not already at 4-5nm though.
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Zathalus
Member
The PS5 is not equal to a 2070. It's quite a bit faster then that, 2070 is roughly 8.5 TFLOPs at regular clocks. The PS5 sits between a 2070 Super and a 2080, closer to a 2080 actually. It also has the advantage of being able to address more VRAM then those cards. The closest PC GPU is actually the 6650XT.
The RT reflections in Ratchet are clearly an outlier, no other RT game has this behaviour.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
So do we think we can get to 18TF? I think that would be great for RDNA 3 TF right?
Zathalus
Member
54 CU clocked at 2610Mhz. So a 17% clock speed bump, which should be doable.
Physiognomonics
Member
Yep that should be reasonnably doable. That's the game clock of the upcoming 7800 that will supposedly be very similar to PS5 Pro chip (3 SEs, 5nm, RDNA3). And dynamic clocks should allow this even more.
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RaySoft
Member
Don't forget that the PS5 has 40 CU's but 4 disabled for yields, so probably the same here.. 56-58 active CU's out of 60.
Loxus
Member
Shager Engines has to be symmetrical according to Kepler.
So it's 54CUs active, 6CUs disabled for yields.
One WGP (2CUs) disabled per Shader Engine and there are three Shader Engines in total.
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Codeblew
Member
PS5 has shown that TF isn't the end all be all of performance. It compares equally or better to its 2TF greater competitor. Cerny knows how to build an efficient system with fewer performance stalling bottlenecks. I am interested to see how they improve the pro to further reduce any bottlenecks they have found in the base model.
Physiognomonics
Member
Doesn't symmetrical means grouped by 2? Or he actually meant identical.
Loxus
Member
Symmetrical Shader Engines.
So all Shader Engines need to have the same amount of WGP enabled.
Edit:
There are only 3 configurations that are possible based on RDNA 3 GPU layout.
For yields.
72CUs total - 60CUs active / 12 disabled.
60CUs total - 54CUs active / 6CUs disabled.
Without yield concerns / getting less chips per wafer
60CUs total / 60CUs active.
If the Mods can do it.
This above should be a poll.
How many CUs total and active do you think the PS5 Pro will have?
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Crispy Gamer
Member
Thats interesting
his take(Kepler) on Arden was also interesting he thinks because of the unconventional setup of 14 WGP 2SE it's being bottlenecked and not performing as it should
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Loxus
Member
I agree, to many CUs for the ROPs, Primitive Unit, etc. to utilize.Thats interesting
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
But I am guessing....
18-24 TF's
20gb Ram
4ghz 8 core/16 threads CPU
1-1.5 TB storage
7750ish XT GPU
$549
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
That's pretty much a new gen system. I'm still in the camp this will be another PS4 Pro but with added diminishing returns.
16GB slightly faster GDDR6 and possibly? a little more DDR4 to free up game RAM
Slightly faster 8c CPU (~upto 3.8Ghz)
GPU best case ~16-18 RDNA 2 equivalent TF or 60-80% above PS5 spec. I'm not convinced they can even hit 2x TF (i.e. 20 TF) within the TDP constraints of a console SoC even at 5nm (120W? 140W? more or less?).
2x SSD so 1.65TB.
If they can include a number of RDNA 3/4 stuff and much stronger RT then it can still be a decent upgrade but the headline numbers might be pretty disappointing. Until/unless new and more solid leaks indicate otherwise.
aliadiere25
Member
Unless it's a decent upgrade, I'll probably stick with my PS5.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I don’t blame anyone for sticking with the regular sku as likely 80-90% of consumers will do
StereoVsn
Gold Member
I mean, that's the expectation out of Sony I would guess. PS4 Pro / Xbone X were about 20% of sales.
PS5/XSX are better designed, IMO, vs PS4/Xbone so could be even less then the 20%.
TheRedRiders
Member
I think it's difficult comparing the PS5 Pro to the PS4 Pro in terms of sales potential.
The gaming climate has changed so much since 2016, a lot more of the gaming user base are after bleeding edge visuals and we can give a lot of thanks to Nvidia for that who pretty much kickstarted the "RTX" train.
A Pro console which can offer more consistent 60 FPS experiences, as well as enhanced ray-tracing on Sony's already blockbuster first party titles will be a big deal in my opinion.
The gaming climate has changed so much since 2016, a lot more of the gaming user base are after bleeding edge visuals and we can give a lot of thanks to Nvidia for that who pretty much kickstarted the "RTX" train.
A Pro console which can offer more consistent 60 FPS experiences, as well as enhanced ray-tracing on Sony's already blockbuster first party titles will be a big deal in my opinion.
Makes you wonder what the narrative would be if it looked like MS was doing a Pro console.
"Its gonna be more work for developers!!"
Some ppl are really in their feelings about a PS5 Pro.
Perrott
Member
The Series S and X approach results indeed in more work for the developers, since Microsoft introduced an incredibly weak baseline for multiplatform game development in this generation of consoles. Had the Series X and PS5 been the baseline for this gen, developers would have had it much easier, since the two of them are very similar in terms of hardware.Makes you wonder what the narrative would be if it looked like MS was doing a Pro console.
"Its gonna be more work for developers!!"
Some ppl are really in their feelings about a PS5 Pro.
So unlike the Series S, enhanced mid-gen refreshes don't represent anywhere as much work since the games planned around the limitations of much weaker hardware actually run well on any enhanced console by default.
That's the difference.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
It still needs a tf increase over ps5. And I hope it's 18tf minimum.
I ended up buying a second ps5 today because I got it for 350 pounds with discount in the UK. Prices are crazy. They deffo clearing stock out.
If this is good enough I'll trade one of my ps5s in towards it
StereoVsn
Gold Member
The issue with Xbox Series is the S. Games are basically made for PS5/XSX and then are downscaled to Series S. That box has less VRAM vs XSX (not to mention graphical processing power). Hence the issue we see that some of the developers are having. Throw in feature parity rule and it gets worth.Makes you wonder what the narrative would be if it looked like MS was doing a Pro console.
"Its gonna be more work for developers!!"
Some ppl are really in their feelings about a PS5 Pro.
In case of PS5 Pro and XSX Pro, they would need to essentially bump up features on res/frame rate and as we have seen with PS4 Pro and Xbone X, that doesnt seem as challenging in general.