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[Clear]

The narrative also works against the roguelite design with the reset in the middle and there are other lacing elements (itemization, small variety in rooms, upgrade caps, etc.) that made for a weaker roguelite and showed some of the budgetary/time constraints to get the product out the door. Some of that can come down to a matter of preference and design decisions around the difficulty curve. It's certainly not a bad game and not a bad first effort for the genre, but it's easy to see why some can be critical of the roguelite implementations. It was also a little content poor at launch. Hats off for the post-launch support, but $70 is a lot more expensive than most other roguelites. I don't really blame Housemarque for that decision though.

I guess the difference is I didn't come in with a lot of baggage as to what a constitutes "a good rogue-lite". I literally could not have given less of a fuck about the points you mention because I was judging it in the context of the game as an experience in itself.

To be honest, even after loving Returnal I've never had the slightest inclination to seek out and play other Rogue-lites. I get the concept of it as structural device, but I don't find it a particularly appealing "hook" in itself. Its a framework or structural convention that can be applied lightly or in an all-encompassing way. What appealed to me was the execution of the combat-loop/traversal/etc, the audio-visual design, and it having a narrative that resonated with me to the extent I was thinking about it days later.

The point I'm getting at, is without the framing of expectations for a game in that genre, its "rogue-liteyness" is irrelevant beyond the way it reinforces the themes of the story.

 

[coachmcguirk91]

Make a normal tps instead of a roguelite, returnal was a great tps but kinda of a shit roguelite.

Nobody else has developed a AAA roguelite like Returnal. I agree, Returnal would be better if it had more gameplay variety, like most roguelites do, but Housemarque has an amazing foundation to build off of.

And Saros not being a roguelite would just water down the experience, imo. No other game plays or feels like Returnal, even if it didn't nail the gameplay mechanics that warrant high replayability. Hopefully with a bigger budget and more time it will be amazing

 

[GymWolf]

I think it's a little arrogant to start making a bullet point list of what a whole genre/subgenre like roguelite should be like, or trying to tell others they liked a game just because they don't know how a good roguelite should work. It's just your own, very specific and narrow preference, while the games come in all shapes and sizes.

For me a lot of driving force came from the world and intrigue, wanting to know more about what's going on. I didn't need to sustain myself with some counter getting a permanent +1 to it or morsels of powerups.

The sense of progression for me came from getting more confident in navigating biomes and getting better at the game in general, and so being learn more about the mystery. On my first runs, I couldn't do anything about Phrike and the boss felt intimidating. Some hours later, I was 360 noscoping zero damage dunking on Phrike with spawn weapon without a sweat. Is that not a sense of progression as well, even if it can't be tied to a numeric power value on an UI?

I've played all kinds of roguelikes, and even the original Nethacks and Adoms back in the day, and I can enjoy Returnal as well as I can enjoy Rogue Legacy or Dead Cells, and they're all still good roguelikes to me for different reasons. I'm not saying this to convince you otherwise, because it doesn't really matter to me that much what you think about it, I'm just providing another point of view.

I get what you say, but isn't the bolded what you do in basically any game? better understanding of the maps, how to navigate, being better at aiming and dodgying, learning boss patterns etc.?!

Roguelites also offer other stuff that returnal doesn't fully take advantage, it is kinda light in content, it doens't have a robust progression between runs, there isn't a lot of synergies (or at least not nearly enough) and many systems are not so well balanced so it is almost better to ignore them in most of the cases.

They could do much better than this and maybe they are gonna do it with Soros.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

70M is a stupidly large amount of money for a potential roguelite. Basically no 3rd party publisher would ever sign on it - so if this is one, it's only happening because it's a 1st party.

It’s small for AAA standards

I think pidgeon holing it into the category of a rogue lite does it a bit of a disservice.

Sure it’s a risk. But the success of returnal was already evident.

 

[N0S]

Cant wait to play as Cuckman

 

[bender]

I guess the difference is I didn't come in with a lot of baggage as to what a constitutes "a good rogue-lite". I literally could not have given less of a fuck about the points you mention because I was judging it in the context of the game as an experience in itself.

To be honest, even after loving Returnal I've never had the slightest inclination to seek out and play other Rogue-lites. I get the concept of it as structural device, but I don't find it a particularly appealing "hook" in itself. Its a framework or structural convention that can be applied lightly or in an all-encompassing way. What appealed to me was the execution of the combat-loop/traversal/etc, the audio-visual design, and it having a narrative that resonated with me to the extent I was thinking about it days later.

The point I'm getting at, is without the framing of expectations for a game in that genre, its "rogue-liteyness" is irrelevant beyond the way it reinforces the themes of the story.

I don't much care for the genre either, save for Spelunky, but when your title is in a popular and crowded genre, comparisons are natural. People love the Binding of Isaac because of the weapon/item synergies that have the chance of making you an overpowered God, entirely hopeless, and everything in-between. I don't think Returnal wanted to go that route because they wanted everything to be viable as well as focusing on player skill rather than RNG. At least that makes since in my head based on their previous titles. I can understand the decision but it does make every run feel kind of "samey". And you don't even need to be well versed in the genre to see something like the limited number of rooms used in their procedural generation as you quickly see all there is to see after only a few runs.

 

[Puscifer]

Housemarque coming after Insomniac for dat Most 1P Releases In A Gen crown .

Visual style for Saros looks sick, I'm interested in hearing more about the game mechanics and story.

Basically Returnal meets Hades from the few details they mentioned. You'll be getting stronger to help your runs!

 

[Shubh_C63]

I just hope they don't go all EPIC scale on this.
They have been able to put gameplay always at the centre of their games and should keep supporting that philosophy.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Still, their best game, Resogun, was done when they were independant and still AA.

AAA means catering to a wider audience (modern or not), supervised by a committee with all those industry ready checkboxes that make western games boring.

 

[nial]

Still, their best game, Resogun, was done when they were independant and still AA.

Not independently funded, though.

 

[Clear]

I don't much care for the genre either, save for Spelunky, but when your title is in a popular and crowded genre, comparisons are natural. People love the Binding of Isaac because of the weapon/item synergies that have the chance of making you an overpowered God, entirely hopeless, and everything in-between. I don't think Returnal wanted to go that route because they wanted everything to be viable as well as focusing on player skill rather than RNG. At least that makes since in my head based on their previous titles. I can understand the decision but it does make every run feel kind of "samey". And you don't even need to be well versed in the genre to see something like the limited number of rooms used in their procedural generation as you quickly see all there is to see after only a few runs.

Your criticism is totally valid, but as I say, its really dependent upon your mindset coming in.

Honestly the repetition felt like a positive as it allowed me to learn the game on a "per-room" basis, while simultaneously growing in confidence at reading enemy "tells", what weapons were most useful against them etc. For me, it offered a pleasing balance between randomness and structure. Which I needed because that game kicked my arse so hard while I was learning it!

 

[nial]

AAA means catering to a wider audience (modern or not), supervised by a committee with all those industry ready checkboxes that make western games boring.

Wrong thread?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

With 2?

Yep.

 

[dgrdsv]

Make a normal tps instead of a roguelite, returnal was a great tps but kinda of a shit roguelite.

Yep. If it's another "rogue like/lite" - and it certainly sounds a lot like Returnal's formula to me - then I'll just skip it this time.