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[TimFL]

I think you're missing the point.

Gamepass is good for developers and gamers. There's a lot of people who woukdnt of ever played Late Shift, or Letter Quest or even Sea of Thieves if it wasn't for Game Pass. That's more money all around for developers and Microsoft. Also cutting out retail gives Microsoft the ability to toss a bit more towards developers.

Think of it like Netflix. The original content gets people in and stay subscribed while all of the third party content is exposure.

Everybody wins.

I know but I can‘t shake off the feeling that they‘d have moved more units without Game Pass exposure day 1. I just would love to see the actual numbers, not to bash this game or other games, but to see how many people used game pass for this and didn‘t buy it after that (lost sale).

Can‘t argue that it‘s good for the obscure games like Late Shift, still a copy played on game pass for a few hours does not replace a unit sold.

 

[petrus91]

Ugh, if you want to apply that used game shenanigans, then you can apply it back to Sea of Thieves. Put used games on top of gamepass, and Sea of Thieves is most likely an empty wastedland, or sea.

But your logical is full of fallacy, reaching for the most absurd hypothetical situation.

No, obviously, because it's a singleplayer game, but Sony gave out hard 5 million in first month numbers. You picked the worst example to prove your point lol.

My post was there to show you that anything can be downsampled in every way. And your logic about 5 mln players=5 mln sales was actually good, let’s say, 15 years ago?
Time to update.

 

[Zaffo]

Are 8 million people playing God of War RIGHT NOW?

Keep you console warfare sense under controll buddy, you are comparing a online multiplayer game you get included into your subscription to a retail full price single player game, why dont we count how many people downloaded pokemon go too? since every number is the same number, no need for context.

 

[Nikana]

I know but I can‘t shake off the feeling that they‘d have moved more units without Game Pass exposure day 1. I just would love to see the actual numbers, not to bash this game or other games, but to see how many people used game pass for this and didn‘t buy it after that (lost sale).

Can‘t argue that it‘s good for the obscure games like Late Shift, still a copy played on game pass for a few hours does not replace a unit sold.

Again, it's not about replacing a copy sold. The amount of units sold isn't the only way to look at the success of a game in 2018.

You're thinking about this the wrong way since this isa new form of distribution for games. Buying a game and a company reporting how many copies sold has been the norm for years but that was before stuff like gamepass and PS Now and even digital distribution. It's an outdated metric that only tells a quarter of the story.

If you watch an extremely popular movie like Avengers on Netflix vs ownining it on a Blu Ray mean it's a lost sale? Not at all. The weight of it being indie or AAA doesnt matter.

There's a reason some games are debuting on gamepass even from third parties. If it was taking sales away they wouldn't be doing it.

Consumers who were going to buy Sea of theives likely still bought it on disc or digitally. Are there some people that probably tried it on gamepass that we're going to buy it but subscribed to gamepass instead? For sure. I am one of them.

But in my circle alone, I have three friends who weren't going to buy Sea of Thieves because of the bad press and not being sold on the trailers. But now we all hop in from time to time and check out the new content for a weekend.

That's 4 players now playing because of gamepass vs 1 (me) who would of bought it outright.

It's doing exactly what it's supposed to. Get more players in. And since it's a first party title, it puts more money into development for all first party titles.

Ashen will likely be another case. I had zero interest in it day 1. But since it's on game pass the dev will get some money from my subscription vs zero income they would have gotten.

 

[Son_of_Zardoz]

lol good job. Finally someone made an OT instead of complaining at me in every Sea of Thieves thread. I even told them that I can't complain in the OT like I can in the review thread.

Enjoy your thread.

Oh I'm sure you won't be able to resist for long--don't want to break your streak!

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Again, it's not about replacing a copy sold. The amount of units sold isn't the only way to look at the success of a game in 2018.

You're thinking about this the wrong way since this isa new form of distribution for games. Buying a game and a company reporting how many copies sold has been the norm for years but that was before stuff like gamepass and PS Now and even digital distribution. It's an outdated metric that only tells a quarter of the story.

If you watch an extremely popular movie like Avengers on Netflix vs ownining it on a Blu Ray mean it's a lost sale? Not at all. The weight of it being indie or AAA doesnt matter.

There's a reason some games are debuting on gamepass even from third parties. If it was taking sales away they wouldn't be doing it.

Consumers who were going to buy Sea of theives likely still bought it on disc or digitally. Are there some people that probably tried it on gamepass that we're going to buy it but subscribed to gamepass instead? For sure. I am one of them.

But in my circle alone, I have three friends who weren't going to buy Sea of Thieves because of the bad press and not being sold on the trailers. But now we all hop in from time to time and check out the new content for a weekend.

That's 4 players now playing because of gamepass vs 1 (me) who would of bought it outright.

It's doing exactly what it's supposed to. Get more players in. And since it's a first party title, it puts more money into development for all first party titles.

Ashen will likely be another case. I had zero interest in it day 1. But since it's on game pass the dev will get some money from my subscription vs zero income they would have gotten.

Just imagine once they can figure out streaming and how many more millions will access games. Right now Microsoft is removing the $60 barrier and putting new titles on Game Pass for a low monthly fee, so is Electronic Arts with it's Origin Premiere, in the future we will see new titles on streaming services which will then remove some of the cost of purchasing hardware to play the games. However as mentioned Game Pass is actually helping sales which some of the people in this thread can't seem to wrap their heads around and think Game Pass is hurting actual sales.

 

[Horns]

I played it for the first time last night using the Game Pass. Not a bad game, but at first glance I didn't see the longevity in it. Will keep playing though.

 

[Revolutionary]

The Cursed Sails content should be available right away. The Cursed Sails mini-adventure/story only takes about two to three hours to complete, but you can take part in the Cursed Sails skeleton ship battles without even doing the story missions. And two days of game time is about 45 minutes of real time, if for some reason you did have to wait for something to drop. The only thing you need to wait for is if you would want to complete a specific skeleton ship battle at a specific location, but skeleton ship battles are taking place on the map 24/7 for the Cursed Sails event. It takes like 15-30 minutes just to complete one simple beginner mission with one of the factions, so there should be very little waiting around time in SoT.

Yeah, I guess I was waiting for that specific skeleton battle. There was a note at the outpost and it told me to go to a specific area, etc and I was under the impression that was the way to start the event proper.

SoT does have an old school open world Western RPG design, where the player has to figure stuff out on their own and there is no hand holding or waypoint to lead the player around, which I find refreshing in this day and age of dumbed down level design and hand holding.

Again, I've been playing the game since the Alpha (which had even less explanation/tutorials), so I know a thing or two about figuring things out for yourself lol. I just didn't feel like dealing with any bullshit last time I booted it up, I guess - the note telling me that the battle was a week away just took the wind out of my sails.
I still have another 5 day Game Pass thanks to Chips Ahoy so I'll probably give it another whirl in a week or so.

 

[LaughingStock]

I played it for while thanks to the gamepass trial. It was fun. Repetitive but fun. I would buy it. But not for full price.

 

[Calibos]

Keep you console warfare sense under controll buddy, you are comparing a online multiplayer game you get included into your subscription to a retail full price single player game, why dont we count how many people downloaded pokemon go too? since every number is the same number, no need for context.

Well at least you "GOT" the point buddy.

Bad comparison, but someone else said "played, not playing" in here before me. My point is that the metrics for games are always reported in different ways. 5 million people running around in your game at any point in time is pretty damn good, subscription or not, multiple accounts or not. When I see the same users in every positive xbox thread veil their fanboyism behind some sort of backhanded compliment or thoughtful criticism, I just think they should be called out more.

It's just, as I said, nice to see the game continuing to be played and tried by more people. It isn't perfect and far from complete, but if they can "No Man's Sky" this thing, 10 months from now it should be amazing. Reporting like this keeps all parties involved interested in some way.

 

[TimFL]

Again, it's not about replacing a copy sold. The amount of units sold isn't the only way to look at the success of a game in 2018.

You're thinking about this the wrong way since this isa new form of distribution for games. Buying a game and a company reporting how many copies sold has been the norm for years but that was before stuff like gamepass and PS Now and even digital distribution. It's an outdated metric that only tells a quarter of the story.

If you watch an extremely popular movie like Avengers on Netflix vs ownining it on a Blu Ray mean it's a lost sale? Not at all. The weight of it being indie or AAA doesnt matter.

There's a reason some games are debuting on gamepass even from third parties. If it was taking sales away they wouldn't be doing it.

Consumers who were going to buy Sea of theives likely still bought it on disc or digitally. Are there some people that probably tried it on gamepass that we're going to buy it but subscribed to gamepass instead? For sure. I am one of them.

But in my circle alone, I have three friends who weren't going to buy Sea of Thieves because of the bad press and not being sold on the trailers. But now we all hop in from time to time and check out the new content for a weekend.

That's 4 players now playing because of gamepass vs 1 (me) who would of bought it outright.

It's doing exactly what it's supposed to. Get more players in. And since it's a first party title, it puts more money into development for all first party titles.

Ashen will likely be another case. I had zero interest in it day 1. But since it's on game pass the dev will get some money from my subscription vs zero income they would have gotten.

That‘s cool and all and I value your opinion + you are correct but it still doesn‘t change the fact that I am very curious about knowing how many copies were not sold due to GP. Doesn‘t matter if metrics changed, I would love to know how many players just dipped their toes in and then never again due to GP (not talking people who play via GP but the people who only tried it once and then never again).

 

[Nikana]

That‘s cool and all and I value your opinion + you are correct but it still doesn‘t change the fact that I am very curious about knowing how many copies were not sold due to GP. Doesn‘t matter if metrics changed, I would love to know how many players just dipped their toes in and then never again due to GP (not talking people who play via GP but the people who only tried it once and then never again).

I'm not trying to come across as in I'm right and you're wrong, so I apologise if it came across that way.

I guess what I don't understand is how knowing those numbers would actually solve any theory?

What would that tell you? Let's do the worst case scenario in terms of split. 4.5 million users on sea of Thieves used game pass. So what? It doesn't tell you about the success or failure in anyway because we don't know how many people are hanging onto the gamepass because of sea of theives.

So what does knowing that gamepass "took away" 4.5 million copies sold tell us? Absolutely nothing.

 

[Son_of_Zardoz]

I played it for the first time last night using the Game Pass. Not a bad game, but at first glance I didn't see the longevity in it. Will keep playing though.

Yeah, it will really depend on how you play, or better yet who you play with. I haven't had the chance to play nearly as much as I would like (that goes for all gaming, not just SoT, because of needing to work at home in the evenings here recently) but I have had a blast playing it with my sons. I don't really have the urge to play it solo though as so much for me is the social aspect. I could easily see it being a tough sell for those who would be more interested in playing by themselves. Hopefully the content keeps coming.

 

[Horns]

Yeah, it will really depend on how you play, or better yet who you play with. I haven't had the chance to play nearly as much as I would like (that goes for all gaming, not just SoT, because of needing to work at home in the evenings here recently) but I have had a blast playing it with my sons. I don't really have the urge to play it solo though as so much for me is the social aspect. I could easily see it being a tough sell for those who would be more interested in playing by themselves. Hopefully the content keeps coming.

I'm playing solo so that make sense. Given that I am playing it a while after release most of my friends have moved on to other games.

 

[Havoc2049]

I'm playing solo so that make sense. Given that I am playing it a while after release most of my friends have moved on to other games.

It can be a fun challenge sailing solo sometimes. I went after the 20 treasure chests on board at one time achievement solo on purpose, just for the challenge. Talk about your head being on a swivel and being extremely cautious when you get near the 20 mark! Trying to defeat a Skeleton Fort solo is a fun challenge as well.

 

[TimFL]

I'm not trying to come across as in I'm right and you're wrong, so I apologise if it came across that way.

I guess what I don't understand is how knowing those numbers would actually solve any theory?

What would that tell you? Let's do the worst case scenario in terms of split. 4.5 million users on sea of Thieves used game pass. So what? It doesn't tell you about the success or failure in anyway because we don't know how many people are hanging onto the gamepass because of sea of theives.

So what does knowing that gamepass "took away" 4.5 million copies sold tell us? Absolutely nothing.

It tells me that people would rather use a sub to play a game than outright owning it. The very thing most people on GAF fear because it‘s one step towards the non-ownership of games society everyone dreads.

Ontop of that I will still never shake the feeling that it‘s lost revenue for e.g. SP games. You keep talking about MS first party titles and that‘s cool I guess, but imagine launching your new title as a 3rd party on XGP to lackluster sales cause everyone hops on to try it in XGP? MS surely can‘t compensate you good enough to warrant the lost sale. What do they pay you by? Hours played? Downloads initiated? How long does it take to recoup development costs. Would love to be a fly on the wall of GP license agreement meetings.

 

[onlyoneno1]

The math is simple. Two platforms, game pass, multiple accounts per Xbox - all add up to a lot of players who launched the game and said "meh". MS loves those metrics like "players" or "skeletons killed" for a reason.

Would you rather MS quotes resolution?

 

[Nikana]

It tells me that people would rather use a sub to play a game than outright owning it. The very thing most people on GAF fear because it‘s one step towards the non-ownership of games society everyone dreads.

Ontop of that I will still never shake the feeling that it‘s lost revenue for e.g. SP games. You keep talking about MS first party titles and that‘s cool I guess, but imagine launching your new title as a 3rd party on XGP to lackluster sales cause everyone hops on to try it in XGP? MS surely can‘t compensate you good enough to warrant the lost sale. What do they pay you by? Hours played? Downloads initiated? How long does it take to recoup development costs. Would love to be a fly on the wall of GP license agreement meetings.

The FUD of digital games including sub based is exactly that, FUD. NeoGaf lives in a vacuum that doesn't represent the core and even aversgr gamer.

What I never understood about the argument that the digital/subscription futute is so bad is that nobody bats an eye when people either rent or buy used games. Especially rent.

Why do consumers choose these methods that are actually not good for gaming companies because they see less revenue, because it allows them to play more games for less money. Exactly what gamepass is trying to do.

Yet the dight tooth and nail that it's awful for them as a consumer because they don't don't *own* the game they plan on renting or trading in.

I'm not sure how else to put how gamepass isn't bad for first or third party developers.

I totally get how at first glance it can be a bad thing because why pay $20 for this game when I can hop onto gamepass for $10 and play it? 20> $10, it has to be bad.

Again, you're looking at it in a vacuum. The average gamer doesn't represent that majority of users and generation of revenue.

It's impossible to say exactly how revnue is split but it's fair to assume that a developer is paid when their game is in gamepass to begin with, and whenever it's downloaded. Time played doesn't make a lot of sense for the medium that's at stake. But it's also fair to assume a developers cut is much less than what it would be if they were to just sell a copy outright.

But there's also a key factor that you're forgetting which is people who have gamepass actually buy more games because they get to play the full experience and get a discount if they decide they want to keep it. It's the Amazon model which I think everybody can say I'd working.

Give people a large benefit for a price that engages them more. Amazon isn't even about selling the cheapest products. Their business plan is about selling the MOST items possible. They want you to buy a prime membership so you get everything through them. And it's proven that people with a prime membership buy more items, the same way people with movie pass see more movies and with gamepass they play more games.

if you have 30 people play Ashen, which is debuting on gamepass, and they make 75 cents per download, and 4 of them are converted to a sale, vs 2 outright sales. The revenue is higher for developer.

Even though those 26 other people hopped in and either finished the game on gamepass or either bounced off entirely, they developer still made 75 cents off of a consumer that might of never gave them a nickle.