ZeroTheShadow
Member
You guys care too much about shit that doesn't matter.
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Tekken |OT2| Pulse of the Regionally Discriminated Knuckleheads
- Thread starter AAK
- Start date
- Status
Ugggghh... I wish I didn't see that. The more I see stuff like this, the more negative I turn towards this game.
It's like bullshit piling on top of bullshit piling on top of more bullshit to make a shit yard full of bullshit in an endless cycle.
It's hard to hold onto a positive outlook when you keep seeing stuff like this.
I play Tekken 7 in the arcade and I think I love it and then I see streams and realize I haven't yet had to deal with crap like customization items. This is the first game I've had to deal with where the pre-release is full of both hype and anti-hype on so many levels and it's gonna help make me bipolar.
Literally on the verge of quitting this franchise and not caring anymore.
Have fun with Tekken 9 where 90% of the female roster is under 18 years old and each character represents a different stage of teenage hormonal activity.
Accepted things won't change much but still want to.
Tekken customs got you covered if you want to make a monster.
What if maybe they were clean non-crazy stuffs? Nah. Get that fish
We could be anime with childish kids who are supposed to be over 20.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Good thing I don't care much about the age diversity of girls in my modern japanese video games marketed with a japanese audience in mind.
"This sword is totally attached to my hip. You see my butt crevice but don't see the sword attached to my hip? How blind are you?"
Good thing Namco reps have self-admittedly said that Japan represents 5-10% of their worldwide market share for Tekken.
smh to infinity
Just the item you could ignore but the sameness is still there with the bodies. Heard one time that if you can't tell who is who clearly by silhouette(not stance and especially getup especially especially when you got a game with customs)then something needs to change.
Exactly.
I'm just gonna post one of my good gifs so I don't drown myself in negativity. lol.
This same gif with each character having one of those clown customizations would totally ruin everything. I don't know how the devs don't visibly see these flaws in their own game.
I used to like both pretty much equally for their own merits. Soul Calibur gives you more freedom, but every piece of equipment is generic, and they don't always look like they fit the character's body properly. Whereas Tekken (we'll say 6 at the time) had fewer options, and you couldn't make brand new characters. But everything was tailored to each character on an individual level. Partially in that everything fit, and partially in that the clothes were mostly things that you could actually imagine the characters wearing. Or at the least, they fit with their 'theme'. They weren't generic.
Now Tekken seems to have the worst of both worlds. I'm still not in favor of bringing completely custom-made characters to Tekken, but I really do want to see the character-tailored stuff return, even if most of it is ripped straight from Tekken 6. I realize now that part of the reason I liked Tekken 6's customization so much is because you could recreate some character's Tekken 4 costumes with it. Lei's brown jacket, Jin's hoodie (or a jacket similar to it), Kazuya's dress attire, Paul's long hair biker look, and a lot of others. Why did those disappear in Tag 2?
Yeah after Tekken 6 things went to shit.
Still pissed that Feng's red getup is like 2 sizes too big for him in TTT2.
Soul Calibur maybe generic but the effort people have put into them and all those characters they made from shows/anime/movies/comics etc is impressive.
FormallyFamicom
Member
Technical constraints. Four characters on screen greatly limited the costume variety. T7 might still be lacking in the variety, but they're still adding stuff.
Right, right, I suppose I knew about that. Then the better question is, why are they bringing back the schlock from Tekken Tag 2 rather than the actual good customs from 6?
Some Finnish Tekken. Paltry entry count (no Killerdoll, no Oulu guys) but there are some good players here:
http://www.twitch.tv/ptprautanyrkki
Offlines that is.
http://www.twitch.tv/ptprautanyrkki
Offlines that is.
SquirrelSoup
Member
It is. On the one hand, you and AAK are making claims that variety could be better and offer good examples of how that could be achieved. Cool. I agree.
But on the other there's taking a dump on the characters that are there with exaggerated claims like 'the whole female cast of Tekken is the same stereotype', 'Namco ONLY makes otaku pandering garbage', 'the new character designs are (objectively) bad' and 'a large majority chunk of the female cast is homogenous'. That's nonsense, and i don't agree with it.
I also think making such exaggerated claims is unproductive if you want anyone to take anything else you say seriously. And personally, i want people to take those suggestions about MMA women you and AAK are making seriously. Hence me calling out the exaggerated stuff that is doing more harm than good, in my view.
Well sweet, if you are amending your position to 'Several female characters exhibit the behaviour of a teenage child, in my view. I don't like it, and wish it was less so.' i have no truck with it. Though i don't hold it myself.
i LOVE SCs customization system. You could make some fantastic customs with it after practicing for a while. It also lets me play 18yo waifu characters with any moveset without the roster offending burly-guy-only people~ =P
A lot could be improved for it too though. It could do with some kinda preview on the character select screen, so you can revert the opp back to the default model BEFORE the match starts. That would weed out a lot of trolling. (Would be good for Tekken too!) Also there's too many shitty useless accessories compared to swell items like the roman armor. And you should be able to choose whether your outfit degrades in a fight or not.
You keep claiming our comments about the female cast being homogenous is exaggerated and that we have no support despite me making 2 images clearly saying otherwise.
And then you deny that image claiming the swimsuit models are different ones pasted on which is also bogus:
I don't know what else to say to you regarding this. I'll just end it again with the main message I've been saying all this time, the female cast in Tekken is homogeneous and needs more variety.
Were a lot of fun matches here, thanks for sharing.
And then you deny that image claiming the swimsuit models are different ones pasted on which is also bogus:
I don't know what else to say to you regarding this. I'll just end it again with the main message I've been saying all this time, the female cast in Tekken is homogeneous and needs more variety.
Were a lot of fun matches here, thanks for sharing.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Finally some decent proof. Thank you. I was wrong on this front. You were right.
Well, you have now finally proven decently that some of the characters have the same build. Sweet. Yes, it would be cool if there was more variety on this front. I've been agreeing with this from the beginning, if you haven't noticed.
But as i have been saying from the start, you should be saying 'I feel too many of these characters have the same build and i don't like it. I wish this different.' then. This is a reasonable statement.
Instead you say 'Namco has gone into the deep end into this one niche of a cast of character, blatantly catering only to otaku's' or 'The whole female cast in the Tekken series is the same stereotype' or even 'everything in T7 is a copy and paste from TTT2/T6 just at a higher polygon count'. These conclusions do not follow from your evidence. They are fantastical and far-fetched, and they obscure the (good! ) suggestions you are making. I say your statements are exaggerated because they are.
I guess i'm -advising- you to tone down the negativity and hyperbole if you want people to listen to you. ( And also to try to avoid presenting your opinions as facts.)
Why is that statement mutually exclusive to my other comment about Namco's pandering Otaku designs? The reason i'm saying that is BECAUSE the female cast is homogenized with that stereotype. It's that Namco philosophy which manifested into what you see with those images. I want new designs that aren't the same cute super-model lady. But hey at least you agree on that front now.
As for the rest of your post about my comments on the state of Tekken 7. If you want to take me completely literally then I never have said that it's a straight up copy and paste of TTT2/T6. What I have been saying is that with the amount T7 copy and pasted form the previous iteration it's not worthy of a Tekken sequel. And don't pretend I'm not the only one that's out there with this concern. And if you have been following my posts throughout this thread I've always given my evidence about how much of T7 is borrowed from TTT2/T6 to an extend beyond any other brand new entry to this series. The magnitude of recycling Tekken 7 is doing can be measured, and if you want to take that metric as an opinion then that's your choice but the fact remains.
NinthPixel
Member
The examples above are just the reality of polygons and the current state of 3d graphics. The uniformity of character models is to allow an easier workflow to share assets. Otherwise you practically have to start from scratch to create each customization.
The sword being outside the body is to account for clothing. It can really only be in one location on a character, so you choose the higher probability of it being floaty or being stuck inside them.
One could call it laziness to not go that extra mile to make things work better. However, I have definitely silenced my own anger towards the customization system after spending much time with 3d tools like Blender. I personally would not mind having no customizations in Tekken, but I am sure others would disagree.
The sword being outside the body is to account for clothing. It can really only be in one location on a character, so you choose the higher probability of it being floaty or being stuck inside them.
One could call it laziness to not go that extra mile to make things work better. However, I have definitely silenced my own anger towards the customization system after spending much time with 3d tools like Blender. I personally would not mind having no customizations in Tekken, but I am sure others would disagree.
If all we ever were exposed to was TTT2, then we'd understand... but Tekken 6 and VF5 existed where they did indeed create each customization for each character from scratch. Hence why the massive disappointment from everyone regarding Namco's decision to go with the customization system currently implemented.
And at this point, I think the majority would love to see it go in it's curent state.
SquirrelSoup
Member
They are not mutually exclusive at all, come on. But one statement is reasonable and defendable, while the other is aggressive, judgemental and goes much beyond what your evidence supports.
As an example:
Statement #1: "I don't like Lucky Chloe's design. I feel Namco is pandering to otaku too much with this design. "
Aside from using blanket terms like 'pandering' and 'otaku' which you'll find very hard to substantiate, this is reasonable.
Statement #2: "Lucky Chloe's design is putrid! Namco does nothing but pander to otaku with all their designs these days!"
Aside from still using those blanket terms, this statement is also very, very broad and judgemental. Using objective terms like 'putrid' may piss people off and proving an objective term when it is about -taste- is nearly impossible. Proving Namco does NOTHING BUT pander to otaku will be very hard too. Even one counterexample will shoot you down.
You use a lot of type #2 statements, and you don't back them up. It is pissing me off.
Like here.
And the constant negativity is grating too. It has gone way, way beyond constructive criticism to the point where it is starting to sour ANY discussion about T7. Why the hate crusade? Do you want people to dislike Tekken? Do you want to put new people off? I'll say you're kinda making me regret joining this community thread, even with finding a bunch of fun EU guys to play against. Congratulations?
It's sad too, because a lot of your posts are completely reasonable and well-argued. Like the one i quote above. Why let yourself be drawn into the negative hyperbole?
SquirrelSoup
Member
You know, maybe i should just say STOP FUCKING BITCHING ALL THE TIME, AAK.
It's clear. Concise. Makes me feel better too. =P
(No hard feelings, AAK. )
Edit: Oops, dp.
It's clear. Concise. Makes me feel better too. =P
(No hard feelings, AAK. )
Edit: Oops, dp.
This. 3D Modeling/Sculpting/Rigging/Texturing/Animating is hard/time consuming. And just imagine, if if I have to change every body type from each template, I have to retopo, fix the rigs and textures all over again. And that eats time and budget.
And with this, I have much more appreciation of Tag 2. Although the art direction could be argued here and there, I could see the effort. Almost all of the models have different body types and for a 59 char roster, thats tears, sweat and blood.
You take two statements that have the exact same meaning except one might be politically correct. I never once claimed "putrid" to be an objective term. Saying something "is putrid" is always an opinion, you're the one claiming i'm trying to state that as a fact. And I've already stated the reasons behind LC 100's of times how in the context of Tekken she really doesn't belong. Katarina is another design I'm 100% against, but it's still character grounded within the boundaries of a fighting game which is a far cry of LC. LC is the equivalent of watching something like Attack on Titan and see some furry idol love tap Mikasa to death. For something you cherish it's not a pill you willingly swallow and brings the negative emotions out.
Sure I agree that if you look at that one post in a vacuum outside of all the complementary posts I've made it's hyperbolic. But after that, when you pose the question of why I'm doing this... it's kinda the same reason you're here isn't it? We're all passionate about videogames, and I'd hate to see this deisgn mentality transfer to other games so I am making my voice loud and clear. If MGSV was just a repaint of MGS4 with no innovation (or MGS4 going from MGS3, etc.) I would have been just as vocal. As consumers you have certain expectations. And I'm in the unlucky boat where there are only 3 franchises left alive which cater to someone like myself that enjoys 3D figthing games (2 of them from Namco). Hence Tekken 7 to me is the one title that was supposed to propel the genre up into the next generation like they did for the 2 preceding generations. It's really hard to see that when it's just another incremental step rather than a generational leap we all expected.
And you also mis-understand. I'm not hating on the game itself, I'm hating on the design decision Namco's having. I kinda don't have a lot of choices on what to play when it comes to 3D fighting games... so I'm still gonna end up buying Tekken 7. I'm not trying to nor need to do anything to make people not play Tekken, that's all in Namco's court. I've spent years trying to get my community to play this series so I have a fairly good idea that a bunch of forum posts isn't going to affect anyone getting into the series. I'm presenting my observations of what Namco's showing us. If you feel the comments I'm making are hyperbole then I welcome you to counter them and present what you feel makes T7 sufficient as a sequel and where I'm wrong. I've tried to give suggestions on what can change, and I've explicitly mentioned the things that Namco shouldn't be recycling... what more can I do to make things more "constructive". And no, there's no hard feelings, the longer our conversations, the more I get to lay out my concerns, & the greater the chance someone that can make a difference might hear.
SquirrelSoup
Member
They don't though. It's the difference between someone stating (for example)
#1 What AAK says in this one post is hyperbole, i don't agree with it.
and
#2 AAK has never said anything worthwile! All his posts are blatant nonsense, not a single grain of truth in there! If Namco listens to anything he says they will lose half their sales!
It's not about political correctness. It's about some statement inviting discourse and being defendable by a reasonable person, and the other being dismissive rampant negativity that can never lead to anything good. Perhaps the poster of the second statement does have his heart in the same place, but we will never know.
I guess I am misunderstanding. I am sorry.
No offense, but please consider just for a moment that with the tone you're setting, is it perhaps too easy a mistake to make?
They might. I am trying to sell people around me on T7. Namco isn't fecking making it easy with no console game, but i'm trying. T7 -does- do some things well to let me make that sell. imo it is not ugly compared it's contemporaries (could be better on some fronts), some decisions are making it easier for new people to get in (like combo scaling making short ones more viable and perhaps the changes to stepping and a smaller cast).
However.. This is completely anecdotal, right, and a couple months ago but.. One of my friends bounced 'So i hear T7 is garbage' at me. I'm like 'where did you get that idea? ' It was some fairly vapid gaming side thread on gaf. One you posted some negative rant disparaging T7 in.
I don't know if he read your post. Maybe not.
But jeez, nowadays people are much too happy to propagate ideas, especially negative ones. On the other side of the world some FGC pals could be echoing your ideas at eachother, and whoops, there goes another group of friends sticking with SF5 instead. Because it's easy.
I'm not sure but i -think- "I'd like to see a character like Natsuo from Teppu in T7!" would get parroted less than simple, nice and easy statements like "Namco is doing everything wrong with T7 characters! Their stupidity knows no bounds! "
People are too ready to hate. Maybe don't give them too much ammo?
Staying even slightly positive is hard. I'm sure finding it fecking hard for T7. But how could i get even one person to give something a spin if i'm all down on it myself?
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Edit: Damn, this got esoteric. And preachy. Apologies for that. It's starting to smell like a good time to duck out of this debate.
I can definitely agree that the tone is pretty aggressive. So yes, taking a step back that can discredit the argument I'm to make and it's something to fix.
BUT about getting your friends interested in Tekken 7, all I have to say about that, is that it's extremely unlikely to ever work. You're right where Tekken is doing gameplay adjustments to make the game more inviting... but IMO that's almost never going to help get people into the game. What the changes may help is in retaining the people that are already playing the game that could potentially quit sometime later due to the complexity. But for someone completely foreign to the series to take an honest look the game has to look compelling in some way to them. And if Tekken 6 did not look compelling enough for them to jump in I'm not sure Tekken 7 might offer other than being the only new 3D fighting game on next gen consoles.
So in the end, all this bitching I'm doing is hopefully for Namco to take awareness and shake things up and present something brand new that these outsiders can potentially connect to.
BUT about getting your friends interested in Tekken 7, all I have to say about that, is that it's extremely unlikely to ever work. You're right where Tekken is doing gameplay adjustments to make the game more inviting... but IMO that's almost never going to help get people into the game. What the changes may help is in retaining the people that are already playing the game that could potentially quit sometime later due to the complexity. But for someone completely foreign to the series to take an honest look the game has to look compelling in some way to them. And if Tekken 6 did not look compelling enough for them to jump in I'm not sure Tekken 7 might offer other than being the only new 3D fighting game on next gen consoles.
So in the end, all this bitching I'm doing is hopefully for Namco to take awareness and shake things up and present something brand new that these outsiders can potentially connect to.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Yeah, maybe. I didn't know them back then, or when TTT2 hit.
But having someone there to explain a game's systems and stuff and giving you a leg up so you don't get mauled for your first 100 matches in ranked can make for a much better experience than you'd otherwise have.
I've sold some people on anime games before, and those devs are NOT friendly to the EU region.
But having someone there to explain a game's systems and stuff and giving you a leg up so you don't get mauled for your first 100 matches in ranked can make for a much better experience than you'd otherwise have.
I've sold some people on anime games before, and those devs are NOT friendly to the EU region.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
So which was the better update? DR or BR?
Played more Tekken 7 today. My excitement is dying. :/
At least they had a Pokken machine there and I got to play that. You can just mash buttons and cool stuff happens.
Also interesting how there's no other Tekken 7 machines there like I thought there would be. Guess they had the entire qualifier tournament on two arcade cabs?
lol, I'm not amending my position. I've been saying that since the beginning of this discussion.
Read my very first response to you in this discussion.
At least they had a Pokken machine there and I got to play that. You can just mash buttons and cool stuff happens.
Also interesting how there's no other Tekken 7 machines there like I thought there would be. Guess they had the entire qualifier tournament on two arcade cabs?
lol, I'm not amending my position. I've been saying that since the beginning of this discussion.
Read my very first response to you in this discussion.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Dude, what? Those two statements are not the same. Maybe my quote is what you MEAN but it's not what you say. AND you tell me to read for the second time. I. Read. Your. Posts. Might try doing me the same courtesy some time.
But cool if that's your viewpoint then. It's pretty damn different from what you said at the start, maybe try saying what you mean next time. Tired of debating though, certainly if you're just going to continue telling me to read when that is not the issue at hand.
You keep telling me that I am calling the entire female roster entirely the same, that I have a problem with all of these characters, that I have a hate crusade against them, that I labeled them all Schoolgirls #1-#5. I didn't do any of these things, and have constantly had to repeat the same point to prove otherwise.
See below.
Edit: Again, no hard feelings Squirrel. I'm just tired and maybe taking this discussion too seriously when I don't need to be. Just annoyed with a lot of things with Tekken 7 right now.
TTT2 Unlimited
But based on those two... DR by far.
BR introduced Lars and Alisa... *barf*
MikeBreezy92
Member
DR was the best update period.
New Stages, Balance, Customization items: BR did better
Gameplay enhancements, new Characters, new character tools: DR did better
But man oh man did BR have a fantastic CGI opening. DR was pretty tame in comparison...
Gameplay enhancements, new Characters, new character tools: DR did better
But man oh man did BR have a fantastic CGI opening. DR was pretty tame in comparison...
But it was the last time we saw Lili/Asuka as fighters rather than each others masochistic love interests
Cosmic Forge
Member
MikeBreezy92
Member
SquirrelSoup
Member
No hard feelings, indeed. I know I labeled them, since it seemed an easy shorthand. My mistake. Hate crusade was probably too strong a word, but there sure was a bunch of dislike coming out of some of your posts. I guess it's for -certain aspects- of those characters and not them as a whole. I'm not persecuting you or anything, honest! I'll also try to stop ribbing on you after this. But:
So, we're talking about T7 exclusively, right? TTT2 has many characters that make the idea of a majority being like that a misnomer. I'd mention Kunimitsu, Jun, Zafina, Nina, Anna, Michelle, Jaycee, Angel. There's a lot.
So, talking about T7, i'll pick two of the characters you mentioned and get into specifics: Asuka and Josie.
I agree they share some similarities. Both young, pretty and as AAK has shown, body types are pretty similar. There are also a lot of differences. Josie -does- have some different proportions, a smaller head and longer limbs and neck (It's that Mari Shimazaki design). Also different facial features. A different voice, and they speak a different language. Different skin tone. A whole different outfit. Different fighting style and stance and such. Different demeanour. Pretty obvious that's a whole lot of differences.
How would one get up to 60-80% the same? That's (much) more the same than different. The same in many respects? They're the same in a few, sure. Homogenous? Maybe in part i guess.. ? They're both young, pretty females.. ? That seems an extremely broad brush to paint with.
Personally i'd say they are much more different than the same though. I'd say no one would confuse them with another, even for a short time. I'd say those claims are exaggerated. (Have been saying too. What am i up to now, four essays? My post history is gonna look weird <.< )
There's the 'childish behaviour' thing, sure. Talking exclusively about T7, how has Asuka shown any childish behaviour? Do we even know anything about that? I understand you feel she has before. Perhaps it will not be so bad this time? Characters have changed (see Paul for example).
Even if it won't be, is how Asuka acted in the past -really- that much the same as how one of the others has? Say Lili. Isn't their demeanour supposed to be opposite to eachother? I understand you don't like their rivalry but that's neither here nor there.
And how has Josie shown childish behaviour? Yes, she cries after winning. So do many grown men after winning in the UFC. (This well-known guy did.) Fighting can be an emotional business. Crying is not childish in itself. She hasn't shown much else that's so childish, has she? And none of the other characters you mentioned do the crying thing either, not much straight overlap there. Does she really act the same as Asuka?
I just don't see the mentioned characters being -that much- the same. Haven't seen much conclusive to support that view either. Broad generalizations don't really do the job. It would have to be specifics. i understand i'm asking too much here, don't really expect a huge retort or anything at all. But I hope i at least tried to outline decently how your statements raise questions with me. I'd best leave it at this.
---
As an aside, anecdotal stuff. You know how folks in TTT2 try to make their two characters look the same to confuse you? That's occasionally worked on me. Lee, the Laws, Hwoarang, Lars, Jin, Anna and Nina with eachother, rarely some of the more burly fighters with eachother. It's worked. Just for a second maybe, but i've been confused.
It's never worked for Lili/Alisa teams though. Or Lili/Asuka or Xiaoyu. Their stances and walks and moves are too distinct. And Alisa has thrusters coming out of her. =P I feel they're very easy to distinguish even when someone is actively working to obscure it. Has your experience been the opposite?
Also, man, Dakkuu is the best. His other pictures are so swell too.
Good games GrayFoxPL. I was a little more "daring" with Jin/Lee today, but going for max damage combos with them is pretty damn hard! >_<
Your Miguel got me good. I should finally look up his frame data.
Also, I hate playing during the day. I'm never able to finish a session without getting interrupted... Sorry for disappearing.
Your Miguel got me good. I should finally look up his frame data.
Also, I hate playing during the day. I'm never able to finish a session without getting interrupted... Sorry for disappearing.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Good games, I got mauled. Couldn't read you until I picked Mig/Jin. Never played that team, but works.
SquirrelSoup, your argument could have a case of any flavor of characters. If a Tekken game only had a male cast of Marduk, Jack, King, Miguel, Jinpachi, Gun-Jack, Gigas, Ancient Ogre, and Armor King you can make the case that all of those characters aren't homogeneous because of the fact that each character has their own voice, martial art, skin color, demeanor, etc. But you're missing the point that they're still the same archetype of "bigs" that is indeed homogeneous for a fighting game while also being a "broad brush". Thankfully that's not the case since there are other archetypes among males like the regulars in Jin/Hwoarang/etc. or the fatties like Ganryu/Bob or the super old dudes like Wang/Sebastian. Unfortunately, that's the reality of the female cast in Tekken. Yes, Josie and Asuka are different in those fine details but they're still the super-model bodied fan-service teenaged chick which is the point being made.
Also, about Josie crying, this is completely off topic but there's a clear difference to me in that Anderson De Silva crying clip compared to Josie. De Sliva clearly raised his hands in triumph before breaking down obviously showing he's happy. You really can't tell that from the way Namco handled Josie's winpose. She doesn't preceed the tears with some sort of triumphant pose making it look like more like she's sad she won because she didn't deserve it or something. If it was animated like the De Sliva one, that would be a lot more appropriate.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Sure, you could. If you are claiming, let's pick two you named, Jack and Gun-Jack are as different from eachother as Asuka and Josie, i would have to disagree vigorously.
I'm not gonna defend my viewpoints further, i did that plenty enough. Apparently my arguments can't convince you to not lump the whole female cast together. That's okay. Yours don't convince me they're as homogenous as you claim either.
Okay. Well, it's clear to me that that kinda thing is what they were going for with Josie. Emotional fighter breaking down after a fight instead of random vapid childish behaviour, as Sayah seemed to take it as.
If I was trying to convince you I'd do it through a PM. The whole point of a discussion on a public forum is to present each other's views in the open, that's all.
And about the childish comment... Josie cries before the fight as well in one of her intro's. That is something that makes her look more childish than the winpose you're referring to.
And about the childish comment... Josie cries before the fight as well in one of her intro's. That is something that makes her look more childish than the winpose you're referring to.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Claudio mid tier according to Knee. Hmmm can we get the old b+1 back then?
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