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[MrCunningham]

Sega Rally 2 was such a disappointing port but,

Sega Rally 2 was one of the first games that I ever owned for my Dreamcast. The framerate was the biggest issue. I know that one of the devs posted on Twitter quite a while back; mentioning that the game was ported to PC first and then the PC version was ported to WindowsCE for the Dreamcast. Which is why it has performance issues.

I forgot what team ported the game, but they used Sega Rally as a guinea pig to test the efficiency of Windows CE on the Dreamcast.



WindowsCE in itself was a pretty novel idea overall, as it allowed for quick and easy Windows ports to the Dreamcast hardware. Also WindowsCE did serve as an alternative game development environment to Sega's own official development tools. The Tomb Raider games used Windows CE. So did Resident Evil 2 and 3. As well as games like Wild Metal, Railroad Tycoon 2, Armada, 4X4 Evolution, Urban Chaos, Kiss: Psycho Circus, Super Runabout and probably about 50 other Dreamcast games. You can tell if a game uses Windows CE from the opening copy-write screen. It will display a "powered by WindowsCE" logo for the games that are using it.

The downside to Windows CE is the extra overhead required by the Dreamcast to run the additional directX libraries in RAM. Which caused many games to be capped at 30fps.

 

[MrCunningham]

Well TBF, the people doing these hacks and mods today are leveraging modern programming techniques & understandings/concepts as well as matured dev community tools and a laxed environment that didn't exist back in 1999/2000 when the Dreamcast was a commercial product.

That all said, it is amazing to see these niche systems get their potential pushed by the homebrew scene and really show the full capabilities of the hardware. And, now that we know it exists in some form, I would definitely like to see a PS2 port of Shenmue leveraging all the advantages of that system to give folks a taste of what that would've been like at retail.

This homebrew GTAIII port is built from a reverse engineered decompilation of the GTA III PC source code: https://www.pcgamer.com/reverse-engineered-gta-iii-source-code-is-back-online/

The original PS2 version was built from the ground up for the PS2 hardware using Criterion's old Renderware engine. GTAIII was originally planned for the Dreamcast though, in its' earliest stages of development. The Renderware engine did support the Dreamcast. There were a few Renderware games released on the Dreamcast, like Trickstyle and Stunt GP.

Rockstar did release a port of GTA2 for the Dreamcast, as well as Wild Metal. Max Payne 1 was also planned for a Dreamcast port as well. But due to Sega discontinuing the Dreamcast early, the Dreamcast ports of GTAIII and Max Payne were cancelled. GTAIII was pushed over to the PS2 initially, but later ported to Windows and the Xbox OG.

Max Payne was always a PC game first and foremost. Rockstar did the ports themselves to the Xbox and PS2.

Rockstar also had an Austin Powers themed kart racer planned for the Dreamcast that was cancelled.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

you are a sad fanboi stuck in the past though

So basically the speech changed to "DC would never run that" to "move on, get over it" when proved wrong. Pathetic.

Well TBF, the people doing these hacks and mods today are leveraging modern programming techniques & understandings/concepts as well as matured dev community tools and a laxed environment that didn't exist back in 1999/2000 when the Dreamcast was a commercial product.

That all said, it is amazing to see these niche systems get their potential pushed by the homebrew scene and really show the full capabilities of the hardware. And, now that we know it exists in some form, I would definitely like to see a PS2 port of Shenmue leveraging all the advantages of that system to give folks a taste of what that would've been like at retail.

Shenmue PS2 port would be hella interesting!!!

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

This homebrew GTAIII port is built from a reverse engineered decompilation of the GTA III PC source code: https://www.pcgamer.com/reverse-engineered-gta-iii-source-code-is-back-online/

The original PS2 version was built from the ground up for the PS2 hardware using Criterion's old Renderware engine. GTAIII was originally planned for the Dreamcast though, in its' earliest stages of development. The Renderware engine did support the Dreamcast. There were a few Renderware games released on the Dreamcast, like Trickstyle and Stunt GP.

Rockstar did release a port of GTA2 for the Dreamcast, as well as Wild Metal. Max Payne 1 was also planned for a Dreamcast port as well. But due to Sega discontinuing the Dreamcast early, the Dreamcast ports of GTAIII and Max Payne were cancelled. GTAIII was pushed over to the PS2 initially, but later ported to Windows and the Xbox OG.

Max Payne was always a PC game first and foremost. Rockstar did the ports themselves to the Xbox and PS2.

Rockstar also had an Austin Powers themed kart racer planned for the Dreamcast that was cancelled.

Those assests are from actual game? It would have been waaaaay cool to.have that on DC. Probably would had added some sales to the console...

 

[diffusionx]

So basically the speech changed to "DC would never run that" to "move on, get over it" when proved wrong. Pathetic.


Shenmue PS2 port would be hella interesting!!!

you can go back and see my early posts in this thread that I said the Dreamcast actually was powerful at launch and not the beneficiary of no competition. But at some point this thread did become a bunch of nerds stuck in the past trying to fight for the DC vs. the PS2 and re-litigate something that was decided over 20 years ago. So yes, move on, get over it. It's like boomers arguing over stones vs. beatles, nobody cares anymore.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

was the dreamcast actually powerful at launch ? or the beneficiary of no competition ?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Sega Rally 2 was one of the first games that I ever owned for my Dreamcast. The framerate was the biggest issue. I know that one of the devs posted on Twitter quite a while back; mentioning that the game was ported to PC first and then the PC version was ported to WindowsCE for the Dreamcast. Which is why it has performance issues.

I forgot what team ported the game, but they used Sega Rally as a guinea pig to test the efficiency of Windows CE on the Dreamcast.



WindowsCE in itself was a pretty novel idea overall, as it allowed for quick and easy Windows ports to the Dreamcast hardware. Also WindowsCE did serve as an alternative game development environment to Sega's own official development tools. The Tomb Raider games used Windows CE. So did Resident Evil 2 and 3. As well as games like Wild Metal, Railroad Tycoon 2, Armada, 4X4 Evolution, Urban Chaos, Kiss: Psycho Circus, Super Runabout and probably about 50 other Dreamcast games. You can tell if a game uses Windows CE from the opening copy-write screen. It will display a "powered by WindowsCE" logo for the games that are using it.

The downside to Windows CE is the extra overhead required by the Dreamcast to run the additional directX libraries in RAM. Which caused many games to be capped at 30fps.

From what I understand, Windows CE also fell out of favor because SEGA's own development tools were simply so much better.

Which made sense; after the debacle of early Saturn development, SEGA got teams like AM2 to clean things up with rapid SGL iterations, and that probably helped foster a culture of providing better development tools early on and to as many 3P partners as possible.

 

[MrCunningham]

Those assests are from actual game? It would have been waaaaay cool to.have that on DC. Probably would had added some sales to the console...

Those are the models from the cancelled Dreamcast game, yeah. The game was called Austin Powers: Mojo Rally. This image was taken from an issue from the Official Dreamcast Magazine. Rockstar did have the Austin Powers license.

From what I understand, Windows CE also fell out of favor because SEGA's own development tools were simply so much better.

Windows CE had a benefit of using Windows as the development environment. It was mostly used to port PC games from Windows to the Dreamcast, with a few exceptions. It was also apparently ideal for smaller scale games. But again, really came at the cost of system performance. I think the WindowsCE development tools were made available online earlier this year. Really also seems like Microsoft was using WindowsCE as a test for their Xbox console.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

you can go back and see my early posts in this thread that I said the Dreamcast actually was powerful at launch and not the beneficiary of no competition. But at some point this thread did become a bunch of nerds stuck in the past trying to fight for the DC vs. the PS2 and re-litigate something that was decided over 20 years ago. So yes, move on, get over it. It's like boomers arguing over stones vs. beatles, nobody cares anymore.

So if you were agree in the first place, why now argue over something you and everyone here knows it´s true (DC was powerful at launch, PS2 won and stomped DC and every other competition to this day....unless the Nintendo Switch...)? In this very thread some actual nerds discredited the DC, the facts prove them wrong and its right to point that. End.

was the dreamcast actually powerful at launch ? or the beneficiary of no competition ?

Come on, you know you love that question!

Those are the models from the cancelled Dreamcast game, yeah. The game was called Austin Powers: Mojo Rally. This image was taken from an issue from the Official Dreamcast Magazine. Rockstar did have the Austin Powers license.

Windows CE had a benefit of using Windows as the development environment. It was mostly used to port PC games from Windows to the Dreamcast, with a few exceptions. It was also apparently ideal for smaller scale games. But again, really came at the cost of system performance. I think the WindowsCE development tools were made available online earlier this year. Really also seems like Microsoft was using WindowsCE as a test for their Xbox console.

I would kill to play as Mine Me!!!

And OG Xbox using Win CE makes lotta sense. In several ways the first Xbox felt like the DC spiritual successor.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

So basically DC during this 2024, 23 years after it´s demise, is getting Doom 64 with Vertex Lighting and Normal Maps (something not even the HD remaster for modern console does), this unbelievable GTA 3 port and what´s basically a live action adaptation of one of its best games ever, Sonic Adventure 2, in form of the third Sonic movie, which is also breaking the box office. Not bad for a failure of a console! "Get over it, folks"

 

[MrCunningham]

And OG Xbox using Win CE makes lotta sense. In several ways the first Xbox felt like the DC spiritual successor.

WindowsCE was a stripped down version of Windows that was designed to operate in 'low powered' hardware and embedded devices from back in the day. Like pocket organisers, pocket PC's, set-top boxes and stuff like that. In the Dreamcasts case, WindowsCE loads directly from the GD-ROM disc to the systems memory, and contains various DirectX API's used to run modified WindowsCE games on the Dreamcast. It was a fascinating idea for the time.

The Xbox doesn't really run WindowsCE. It has its own custom OS that has elements of the Windows NT kernel, but games do use the "Direct" runtimes in a similar fashion to WindowsCE powered Dreamcast games. The Dreamcast runs a DirectX 5 equivalent (I think), while the Xbox uses DirextX 8.1. The PowerPC GPU does support DirectX, and there was even a desktop version of the GPU released called the Neon 250.

It's like Microsoft was using the Dreamcast to test how their Direct API's would function on a game console. I think they tried to convince Sega to include internal storage in the Dreamcast that would contain WindowsCE built into the unit. I think Sega declined that for cost reasons.

 

[MrCunningham]

I would kill to play as Mine Me!!!

There was never any screenshots or footage released of Austin Powers Mojo Racer. I know, it is really just another Kart Racer, but it would have been an Austin Powers kart racer made by Rockstar. The only images that ever appeared from the game are the character models. The big headed character models looked great. Like Frau Farbissina for example. It was oddly exclusively in development for the Dreamcast. I think it was suppose to have an online element as well.

​

 

[Alexios]

This might be interesting to see. The character model was cool at least. I don't imagine it was much more developed than something like that Dreamcast Castlevania demo, still cool.

 

[Alexios]

​

Doom 64 for Dreamcast (updated 2025-01-04)​

The ultimate and probably final update to Doom 64 for Dreamcast.

UNCAPPED FRAME RATE, variable with correct physics. 60 FPS in the majority of the game with full lights and normal mapping.

VMU SAVING IS NOW SUPPORTED. It all happens in the intermission screen after password/the 'Password' menu. I have only been able to test this with OEM Sega VMU.

Rumble/Vibration/Purupuru Pack is also now supported. Go to Options, Movement, and select Rumble: On. I have only been able to test this with a RetroFighters StrikerDC wireless pad.

Keyboard and mouse are also supported. I don't have much to comment on that, I got this from a pull request.

Custom Knee Deep In The Dead content with Dreamcast-exclusive enhancements. Maps by z0k (with mods by Mittens). Music by Andrew Hulshult.

Commercial redistribution is not allowed. It is illegal and also against the terms of use for the provided community content. You know I'm talking about you. You are a parasite, absolute trash.

Anyway, speaking of the lights and normal mapping mentioned a few lines above...

There is full world and weapon real-time normal mapping with dynamic lighting, with world geometry tessellation (bUt DoT3 BuMp MaPpInG oN tHe DrEaMcAsT iS iMpoSsIbLe?!?! because...)

Lots of work went into this and I hope you all enjoy it.

Edit: I dunno why this tweet won't embed, another new Dreamcast port, Celeste Classic! A Flock of Meese's work is as impressive as GTAIII, a full fledged Minecraft derivative that will clone 1.7.3 then evolve into his own new game. It currently uses half the DC ram to leave room for the rest features!
​

 

[nkarafo]

So basically DC during this 2024, 23 years after it´s demise, is getting Doom 64 with Vertex Lighting and Normal Maps (something not even the HD remaster for modern console does)

Yeah, i'm sure the remaster doesn't do that because modern hardware isn't as capable or as awesome as the Dreamcast.... Right guyz?

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Yeah, i'm sure the remaster doesn't do that because modern hardware isn't as capable or as awesome as the Dreamcast.... Right guyz?

No, and please dont act like a middle aged 12 yr old boi, im just pointing that DC was actually very powerful at launch, to the point is still getting amazing stuff that pushes further its hardware, 23 years later. Im not saying something as stupid as "its more powerful than modern consoles". But of course this upgraded Doom 64 port, GTA 3, and also games released on its actual lifecycle like DOA2, the Shenmue's, Sonic Adventure 2, Le Mans, F355. Etc proves by far DC was an actual and proper 6th gen system, and not an "upgraded PS1/N64" like some "people" claims on this very thread and across NeoGaf and YouTube. Why its so hard to understand?

 

[nkarafo]

im just pointing that DC was actually very powerful at launch, to the point is still getting amazing stuff that pushes further its hardware, 23 years later. Im not saying something as stupid as "its more powerful than modern consoles". But of course this upgraded Doom 64 port, GTA 3, and also games released on its actual lifecycle like DOA2, the Shenmue's, Sonic Adventure 2, Le Mans, F355. Etc proves by far DC was an actual and proper 6th gen system, and not an "upgraded PS1/N64" like some "people" claims on this very thread and across NeoGaf and YouTube. Why its so hard to understand?

Since the lack of these effects on the modern remaster are a design choice, saying "something not even the HD remaster for modern console does" prove nothing about the power of the DC and serves no purpose other than trying to be hyperbolic for the sake of it. You could left that out.

Also, it's DOOM 64. Its a N64 game. I'm sure the DC can handle it with enough head room for extra fancy stuff. I don't think it's at the same level as GTA3 when it comes to impressive ports. It's an amazing game and a great port, i'm glad it exists and i really want to play it. But i wouldn't parade it as something to prove how powerful the DC is.

 

[Alexios]

It's worth pointing out the extras in the Doom 64 port because it makes it unique among all the official console versions so it's worth playing even if you don't actually care to see cool Dreamcast tech stuff. And it's a lot more than "just" an N64 game (that already had performance issues on that, not that Dreamcast wasn't also "accused" of being part of the PS1 gen power wise, with official ports like Re-Volt ridiculed as the supposedly best Dreamcast can ever do with an erratic framerate in a PlayStation port by folks you've furiously reacted to with likes to all the bs they post yourself anyway, lol) given what it took to include them (ie the geometry tessellation for lighting to look right doesn't affect it visually beyond that but does push a ton more polys). Also because of the use of bump mapping, constantly cited as impossible on DC, as its dev noted. It's not that hard to get

Gotta love some of the comments even on the VGE video (also some misinformation in that vid). Oh, it only runs on Dreamcast modded with double ram, oh, it's a downgade because it's based on the PC version (ignoring all the ways that's an upgrade in), oh, of course it works since it started life on DC but Vice City and San Andreas totally wouldn't (when Rockstar devs have already said Vice City was essentially the exact same thing, all over again) etc., hah. A lot like some frothing haters here, that then blame said frothing on those "fanboys" because being adults is too much to ask of some​

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Now VICE CITY running on DC!!!

 

[Alan Wake]

Now VICE CITY running on DC!!!

RDR2 incoming!

 

[Esppiral]

Alpha port version of an unfinished decompiled project, made with homebrew tools running on hardware from 1998, yes it was powerful at launch.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Alpha port version of an unfinished decompiled project, made with homebrew tools running on hardware from 1998, yes it was powerful at launch.

What it is! FACTS OVER FICTION.

Where are all the "experts" from this thread, this foum and YouTube who wrote a lot of "tech data" to support their statement that DC wouldnt run it by any chance?

Wasn´t DC just an N64 on steoroids? I don´t get it!

 

[Hawk The Slayer]

Never owned one but I'll say it was from what I remember since they seem to have PS2 level quality games or almost at that level before the PS2 was released

 

[Randall365]

Just a pity that when the competition did arrive, it kicked it to death.

 

[Drell]

What it is! FACTS OVER FICTION.

Where are all the "experts" from this thread, this foum and YouTube who wrote a lot of "tech data" to support their statement that DC wouldnt run it by any chance?

Wasn´t DC just an N64 on steoroids? I don´t get it!

B-But with VUs optimization I'm sure you can do better than a RTX 5080 please trust me!!!!!

 

[Fat Frog]

 

[Sky-X]

For a system released in 1998, yes it definitely was powerful at the time, regardless of competition status. The hardware itself was advanced. Though yeah, I don't think it was (the biggest technological leap) or anything like that, that is definitely a huge exaggeration.

 

[kevboard]

For a system released in 1998, yes it definitely was powerful at the time, regardless of competition status. The hardware itself was advanced. Though yeah, I don't think it was (the biggest technological leap) or anything like that, that is definitely a huge exaggeration.

I mean, this 1998 console can play GTA3 at close to PS2 quality.
seems like a pretty big leap over the PS1 at the very least.

the issue with talking about tech leaps back then is that the early 3D era was pretty tumultuous.
3DO, Jaguar, Saturn, PS1... they were all a very "hacky" kinda way to do 3D.

only the N64 really felt like a proper 3D console as it didn't suffer from all the texture and vertex weirdness of the others. it had proper perspective correct textures, didn't have to snap vertices to pixels because it actually supported floating point calculations, had build in AA and had texture filtering.

so from Saturn and PS1 to N64 there was also a small jump

the steps from something like the 3DO all the way to the Dreamcast feels more gradual due to that.
the 3DO was super primitive, the Saturn could actually do decent 3D, the PS1 could do 3D a bit better than that, the N64 then had an actual proper GPU for 3D graphics, and the Dreamcast had a proper 3D GPU that was capable enough to run arcade level graphics

 

[Sky-X]

I mean, this 1998 console can play GTA3 at close to PS2 quality.
seems like a pretty big leap over the PS1 at the very least.

the issue with talking about tech leaps back then is that the early 3D era was pretty tumultuous.
3DO, Jaguar, Saturn, PS1... they were all a very "hacky" kinda way to do 3D.

only the N64 really felt like a proper 3D console as it didn't suffer from all the texture and vertex weirdness of the others. it had proper perspective correct textures, didn't have to snap vertices to pixels because it actually supported floating point calculations, had build in AA and had texture filtering.

so from Saturn and PS1 to N64 there was also a small jump

the steps from something like the 3DO all the way to the Dreamcast feels more gradual due to that.
the 3DO was super primitive, the Saturn could actually do decent 3D, the PS1 could do 3D a bit better than that, the N64 then had an actual proper GPU for 3D graphics, and the Dreamcast had a proper 3D GPU that was capable enough to run arcade level graphics

It was a big leap and a fantastic machine and I can't fault it for anything, but it wasn't the biggest leap.

I was there too, long before it was released, I have a different feeling and memory about this than many people. To me, the 5th generation was a way bigger jump in technology than the 6th generation. On the MegaDrive I was only playing 2D action games, platformers, and some sports games. The 5th generation came and even though it was early, primitive 3D graphics, it was something we've never imagined possible, there was a very large paradigm shift, the whole concept of video games, what a video game can be, was reinvented. We got introduced to stories, to cut-scenes, to storytelling ideas, to worlds, we've never thought possible.

The 6th generation was a big jump but to me, it felt a realization of what developers were trying to achieve in the first place, it was an evolution, but it wasn't as revolutionary as playing a 3D game for the first time. I say this and the 6th generation is probably my favorite of all time, we had 4 incredible consoles and each one had its own unique games and experiences, that was never repeated.

The 7th generation was also a bigger technological leap in my opinion, the first time I saw Gears of War running on an Xbox 360 on an HD Samsung TV, it was mind-blowing, never thought I would see a video game with such LoD, MGS4 also impressed me very much, it felt like we are truly near Cinema level. That was a crazy jump in every way possible.

After that, yeah, way less impressive for sure.

 

[nkarafo]

the steps from something like the 3DO all the way to the Dreamcast feels more gradual due to that.
the 3DO was super primitive, the Saturn could actually do decent 3D, the PS1 could do 3D a bit better than that, the N64 then had an actual proper GPU for 3D graphics, and the Dreamcast had a proper 3D GPU that was capable enough to run arcade level graphics

The gap between The N64 and Dreamcast was quite bigger than the gap between the 3DO and N64. In late 1998 the DC was a proper generational leap while the 3DO and N64 are both 5th gen consoles, one early and the other late.

But in the same way the 3DO was an early 5th gen console, the Dreamcast was an early 6th gen console. And in the same way the PS1 and later on the N64 surpassed the 3DO, so did the PS2, Gamecube and XBOX surpassed the DC.

Those gaps within the same generation were smaller and they added up as newer consoles got released within them. And yeah the gap between the DC and XBOX seems big, just like the gap between the 3DO and N64. But still smaller than the full generational N64/DC gap.

What did the 6th gen brought to the table then? More polygons (character models had tens of thousand of polygons instead of hundreds), higher standard resolution (480p instead of 240p), higher resolution textures with proper perspective correction and higher frame rates. The DC did do all that but because it was such an early 6th gen console, it also had way too many late 5th gen games in it's library (at higher resolutions/frame rates but still not proper "next-gen" games).

the Dreamcast had a proper 3D GPU that was capable enough to run arcade level graphics

True, the Dreamcast (and the 6th gen in general) was the generation where consoles and arcades got parity. But that's not only because the consoles were better, it was also because the arcades got worse. There was never a Model 4 to surpass the DC (and other 6th gen consoles) in the arcades, instead they went with the Naomi, which is basically the same hardware. The Hikaru was slightly better but still, not the big gap the "Model" series had compared to home consoles. Even the Naomi 2 wasn't that huge of a gap IMO and something like the GameCube can easily match it.

Basically they ditched the expensive, custom made hardware for state of the art graphics and went with cheaper, retail level hardware. Which is one of the reasons arcades slowly declined and died. Because why would i want to go to the arcades and waste my coins when i can enjoy almost as fancy looking games in my own home?

 

[kevboard]

It was a big leap and a fantastic machine and I can't fault it for anything, but it wasn't the biggest leap.

I was there too, long before it was released, I have a different feeling and memory about this than many people. To me, the 5th generation was a way bigger jump in technology than the 6th generation. On the MegaDrive I was only playing 2D action games, platformers, and some sports games. The 5th generation came and even though it was early, primitive 3D graphics, it was something we've never imagined possible, there was a very large paradigm shift, the whole concept of video games, what a video game can be, was reinvented. We got introduced to stories, to cut-scenes, to storytelling ideas, to worlds, we've never thought possible.

The 6th generation was a big jump but to me, it felt a realization of what developers were trying to achieve in the first place, it was an evolution, but it wasn't as revolutionary as playing a 3D game for the first time. I say this and the 6th generation is probably my favorite of all time, we had 4 incredible consoles and each one had its own unique games and experiences, that was never repeated.

The 7th generation was also a bigger technological leap in my opinion, the first time I saw Gears of War running on an Xbox 360 on an HD Samsung TV, it was mind-blowing, never thought I would see a video game with such LoD, MGS4 also impressed me very much, it felt like we are truly near Cinema level. That was a crazy jump in every way possible.

After that, yeah, way less impressive for sure.

of course no generational jump will ever compare to the jump from gen4 to gen5.

but I think the jump from gen5 to gen6 feels slightly less substantial due to the gradual steps I described.
it seemed like each gen5 console that released gradually inched closer to gen6 as they went.
this was due to the fact that 3D hardware took multiple big steps on a yearly basis back then.

so if a console launched a year after another, the hardware would be noticeably more capable and more "modern" from today's perspective.

the N64 is almost an in-between step between the PS1 and Gen6 for example, probably due to the fact it launched in 96 instead of 95. that single year difference resulted in a noticeable step towards GPU features that would become the norm in gen6.

 

[kevboard]

The gap between The N64 and Dreamcast was quite bigger than the gap between the 3DO and N64. In late 1998 it was a proper generational leap while the 3DO and N64 are both 5th gen consoles, one early and the other late.

But in the same way the 3DO was an early 5th gen console, the Dreamcast was an early 6th gen console. And just like how the PS1 and later on the N64 surpassed the 3DO despite being all 5th gen consoles, so did the PS2 Gamecube and XBOX surpassed the DC.

Those gaps within the same generation were smaller and they added up as newer consoles got released within them. And yeah the gap between the DC and XBOX seems big, just like the gap between the 3DO and N64. But still smaller then the generational N64/DC gap.

What did the 6th gen brought to the table then? More polygons (character models had tens of thousand of polygons instead of hundreds), higher standard resolution (480p instead of 240p), higher resolution textures with proper perspective correction and higher frame rates. The DC did do all that but because it was such an early 6th gen console, it also had way too many late 5th gen games in it's library (at higher resolutions/frame rates but still not proper "next-gen" games).

I don't think the gap between the N64 and the Dreamcast is all that big.

a fully utilised N64 is capable of some truly amazing stuff.
the issue both consoles however had is that their lack of third party support meant that neither of them was ever fully pushed to their limits.

it's only now with homebrew games and ports that we see the true capabilities of both I think.
with the GTA3 port and N64 fan games like Return to Yoshi's Island showcasing the true power of these macines.
with GTA3 showing that the Dreamcast was more competitive performance wise with the PS2 than most would have thought, and with Return to Yoshi's Island showing that with proper optimisation, N64 games could be mistaken for early Dreamcast titles.

 

[nkarafo]

I don't think the gap between the N64 and the Dreamcast is all that big.

a fully utilised N64 is capable of some truly amazing stuff.
the issue both consoles however had is that their lack of third larty support meant that neither of them was ever fully pushed to their limits.

it's only now with homebrew games and ports that we see the true capabilities of both I think.
with the GTA3 port and N64 fan games like Return to Yoshi's Island showcasing the true power of these macines.
with GTA3 showing that the Dreamcast was more competitive performance wise with the PS2 than most would have thought, and with Return to Yoshi's Island showing that with proper optimisation, N64 games could be mistaken for early Dreamcast titles.

Yes the N64 has a lot of untapped potential, more so than the DC or any other console. The DC was much easier to develop for, the N64 was one of the hardest because of various bottlenecks that got in the way of using the hardware efficiently. But the truth is, we never got Return of Yoshi's Island back in 1998. The best we got was Banjo-Kazooie and WDC/Stunt Race 64 (i'm picking these games as the best balance of good graphics and good frame rate at the same time). And these games were not at the same level as something like Soul Calibur or Shenmue on DC. There's a clear generation gap between those games.

Now, if more games on the N64 were like Return of Yoshi's Island, you would be right. And yes, technically at least it proves the N64 could be an in-between gen 5 and 6. But there weren't any such games and we also couldn't know either.

I also disagree how GTA3 proves the DC is competitive to the PS2. For me it always was. It was always a proper 6th gen console, only slightly less powerful than the later ones, which is fine. I didn't need GTA3 to prove that to me, there are plenty of official released DC games that do so.

 

[kevboard]

Yes the N64 has a lot of untapped potential, more so than the DC or any other console. The DC was much easier to develop for, the N64 was one of the hardest because of various bottlenecks that got in the way of using the hardware efficiently. But the truth is, we never got Return of Yoshi's Island back in 1998. The best we got was Banjo-Kazooie and WDC/Stunt Race 64 (i'm picking these games as the best balance of good graphics and good frame rate at the same time). And these games were not at the same level as something like Soul Calibur or Shenmue on DC. There's a clear generation gap between those games.

Now, if more games on the N64 were like Return of Yoshi's Island, you would be right. And yes, technically at least it proves the N64 could be an in-between gen 5 and 6. But there weren't any such games and we also couldn't know either.

I also disagree how GTA3 proves the DC is competitive to the PS2. For me it always was. It was always a proper 6th gen console, only slightly less powerful than the later ones, which is fine. I didn't need GTA3 to prove that to me, there are plenty of official released DC games that do so.

the issue was that most DC games were arcade ports or very arcade style games.
there was never a game of fhe scale of GTA3 on it, which is what I mean when I say it proofs that it could have kept up with the PS2.

it is one thing to run good looking fighting games or good looking stylised games like JSR. it's another to have a (then) complex open world game with NPCs, dynamic weather, dynamic traffic and car physics.

so to me GTA3 is the final proof. if GTA3 runs, most games would work on it

 

[Sky-X]

of course no generational jump will ever compare to the jump from gen4 to gen5.

but I think the jump from gen5 to gen6 feels slightly less substantial due to the gradual steps I described.
it seemed like each gen5 console that released gradually inched closer to gen6 as they went.
this was due to the fact that 3D hardware took multiple big steps on a yearly basis back then.

so if a console launched a year after another, the hardware would be noticeably more capable and more "modern" from today's perspective.

the N64 is almost an in-between step between the PS1 and Gen6 for example, probably due to the fact it launched in 96 instead of 95. that single year difference resulted in a noticeable step towards GPU features that would become the norm in gen6.

Yeah the N64 despite its limitations, was the beast of that generation and its clear that Nintendo wanted to wait until the 3D tech became ready, they were definitely very ambitious with the hardware (and the software). Its best looking games are not that far from some early Dreamcast games.

with GTA3 showing that the Dreamcast was more competitive performance wise with the PS2 than most would have thought, and with Return to Yoshi's Island showing that with proper optimisation, N64 games could be mistaken for early Dreamcast titles.

Dreamcast was a victim of false advertising from the competitor, I really believed at the time that it was nowhere close to PS2 in terms of polygons and then, I was very surprised when I saw Code Veronica on the PS2 for the first time because I thought it was slightly worse than the Dreamcast version. PS2 was stronger of course, but not as much as they wanted us to believe.

 

[nkarafo]

so to me GTA3 is the final proof. if GTA3 runs, most games would work on it

Would they though? I mean, GTA3 isn't even close to be the best looking open world game on PS2. It was an early PS2 game even. Games like San Andreas or other later open world games do a lot more. Are you sure the DC would handle those just because it handles GTA3? Because to me it looks like GTA3 pushes the DC's limits, or so i was told.

Yeah the N64 despite its limitations, was the beast of that generation and its clear that Nintendo wanted to wait until the 3D tech became ready, they were definitely very ambitious with the hardware (and the software). Its best looking games are not that far from some early Dreamcast games.

I'm a huge fan of the N64's library but really, what N64 game comes even remotely close (visually) to early DC games like Soul Calibur? Or Sonic adventure? Or Jet Set Radio?

The reason you may think this is the case is because DC's library got a ton of 5th gen games. Such as Shadowman, Hydro thunder, Soul Reaver, MK4, Episode 1 Racing, Rush 2048 and a ton of others that looked very similar to the original versions at slightly higher resolution and frame rates.

 

[Sky-X]

I'm a huge fan of the N64's library but really, what N64 game comes even remotely close (visually) to early DC games like Soul Calibur? Or Sonic adventure? Or Jet Set Radio?

The reason you may think this is the case is because DC's library got a ton of 5th gen games. Such as Shadowman, Hydro thunder, Soul Reaver, MK4, Episode 1 Racing, Rush 2048 and a ton of others that looked very similar to the original versions at slightly higher resolution and frame rates.

Conker maybe?

That is why I said "some early games, definitely not Sonic Adventure or SoulCalibur. But yeah, you could be right.

Overall it is true that DC was the weakest 6th gen system but it looked just fine even after the release of the PS2. People may look back at games like MGS2 and FFX but those were the exception not the rule, the majority of early PS2 games were really Dreamcast level visually with worse image quality that bothered me even at the time. Hardware was complicated and developers couldn't take full advantage of it until much later. My first experience with DC was actually after owning a PS2 early on and I didn't think Code Veronica or Shenmue were any less than what I was playing on PS2, they were similar to other PS2 games that were released in 2001/2002. Though later on PS2 was utilized fully and received games that I think were beyond what a Dreamcast can do (such as FF12, GTA San Andreas, Silent Hill 3 and others).

 

[SkylineRKR]

The thing with these homebrew projects is that they can do much more than 25 years ago. Doom Resurrection absolutely smokes the 32x retail version. GTA 3 was a 2001 PS2 game. It isn't even close to the most impressive PS2 games.

PS2 generally had worse IQ, and bad aliasing. But it did toy with more complicated textures.

But DC was a very solid choice in 1999 and 2000. It did have the best console ports of cross gen games. You could play stuff like Spider Man, Soul Reaver, THPS, V8 at far better performance and IQ than on PS1. And those were pretty much using the PS1 as baseline (same animations and gameplay). If they went the extra mile you got leaps like Hydro Thunder, NBA Showtime and Rayman 2. Those versions absolutely crushed the PS1 and N64.

However, during the late 90's and early 2ks technology saw rapid advancements. A 2001 Xbox looks worlds different from a 1998 DC, despite DC being powerful when it launched. Even PS2 from early 2000 could already do much more trickery as evident in Zone of the Enders 2, MGS2 etc.

 

[nkarafo]

Overall it is true that DC was the weakest 6th gen system but it looked just fine even after the release of the PS2. People may look back at games like MGS2 and FFX but those were the exception not the rule, the majority of early PS2 games were really Dreamcast level visually with worse image quality that bothered me even at the time. Hardware was complicated and developers couldn't take full advantage of it until much later. My first experience with DC was actually after owning a PS2 early on and I didn't think Code Veronica or Shenmue were any less than what I was playing on PS2, they were similar to other PS2 games that were released in 2001/2002. Though later on PS2 was utilized fully and received games that I think were beyond what a Dreamcast can do (such as FF12, GTA San Andreas, Silent Hill 3 and others).

I think the PS2 had enough early games that showed some advantages over the DC. The first games i got were Silent Hill 2 and DMC. DMC was fine, probably doable on the DC without much sacrifice but SH2 was something else. The real time soft shadows was a first, pretty sure there wasn't such a thing anywhere else, not even on PCs or arcades at the time. Even the mighty DOOM 3, a few years later, still had hard stencil shadows. The complex fog effects were also an impressive sight. I don't think there's any DC game, early or late, that did something equivalent.

The thing with these homebrew projects is that they can do much more than 25 years ago. Doom Resurrection absolutely smokes the 32x retail version.

This is true. I see some people here claiming that being a homebrew drags it back. So it should be even more impressive how GTA3 turned up. But that's not the case. It may be homebrew but it also uses all the accumulating knowledge and improved software tools of several decades later. For that reason, modern homebrew ends up being an advantage, not disadvantage. You are bound to see more impressive things, graphically, not less. There are other examples as well, you already mentioned DOOM 32X but there's also Return to Yoshi's Island on the N64, which pretty much trumps every other N64 game ever released, technically, to the point where it looks like it doesn't belong there.

 

[Ozzie666]

It's good to know the Dreamcast is still thinking in 2025 on NGAF.

Seeing Soul Calibur coming off of the PS1 and Saturn games was something else. to me N64 had it's own unique look that softened the transition a bit. Conker's was an amazing game. By the time of it's release PS1 was starting to be fully tapped out.

The architecture of the Dreamcast was much easier for developers then the PS2, at least in the first few years. I do wonder how far it could have been pushed just like the 32X.

Return to Yoshi Island, how have I never heard of this before. That is dam impressive.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

I don't care what anyone says, Ferrari F355 Challenge looked fantastic in the year 2000, and it still looks amazing today. It showed me that Dreamcast still had untapped power that would, ultimately, never be used, as PlayStation 2 hype overwhelmed everything so quickly. It's quite shocking to contemplate that DC was only on the shelves in the States for 18 months before being retired.

I'm quite impressed to see Grand Theft Auto 3 and Vice City on Dreamcast, but I'm not at all surprised that the system could handle those games.

 

[Gamer79]

I stood in line and got my dreamcast at launch on 9/9/1999. It was a mind blowing experience going from n64/psx to Dreamcast. It was way ahead of it's time.

Hell the first Saints Row looked miles better than GTA at the time.

 

[No BBC=Anger]

There was a bunch of titles planned for DC that went straight to other consoles so it's another indicator on how the DC would have performed. At least there was a few shoot em ups, visual novels and other strange titles up to 2007 with official support.

 

[Lysandros]

Conker maybe?

That is why I said "some early games, definitely not Sonic Adventure or SoulCalibur. But yeah, you could be right.

Overall it is true that DC was the weakest 6th gen system but it looked just fine even after the release of the PS2. People may look back at games like MGS2 and FFX but those were the exception not the rule, the majority of early PS2 games were really Dreamcast level visually with worse image quality that bothered me even at the time. Hardware was complicated and developers couldn't take full advantage of it until much later. My first experience with DC was actually after owning a PS2 early on and I didn't think Code Veronica or Shenmue were any less than what I was playing on PS2, they were similar to other PS2 games that were released in 2001/2002. Though later on PS2 was utilized fully and received games that I think were beyond what a Dreamcast can do (such as FF12, GTA San Andreas, Silent Hill 3 and others).

Games like Tekken Tag, MGS 2, DMC 1, Gran Turismo 3, FF X etc. are not "much later" though are they? Those were about one year after the machine's launch.That's quite a hefty amount of exceptions i would say...