Support NeoGAF

[Rolling_Start]

Yep. I thought about it the second they announced SSDs.
The problem would be: no PC support. The assets will be highly hardware specific, multiplatform games will not do it...

That's a very good point. The PC and console versions of the game would have to operate differently. Perhaps this is already being worked on, what with Stadia and Xcloud being The Next Big Thing (supposedly).

Maybe MS are developing some kind of PC equivalent, where Windows and DX will allow a game to "install" itself, or at least access chunks of assets, in a format compatible with the Windows virtual memory system. Perhaps they could back port something from Scarlett to that Universal Windows Platform that they intermittently seem keen to push.

Yep. That.

AFAIR, Cerny said exactly the same.
File-based access scheme + low level Flash API.

Excellent! Both consoles using a similar "traditional + low level" arrangement increases the chances of third party games using the low level.

 

[Rolling_Start]

Would you care to elaborate? We've known about Radeon attaching NVMe flash drives to workstation GPUs for years.

 

[Breakfast at Noon]

Imagine the PS5 having no HDD and it is using a custom storage unit like the PSVITA

 

[mckmas8808]

This reads like a dream. I wish this is what Sony is doing.

 

[Rolling_Start]

This reads like a dream. I wish this is what Sony is doing.

It [next gen SSD integration] is quite possibly derived from AMDs work on Radeon with SSD - Sony and MS have access to AMD's core IP roadmap when they're planning ahead, and would have known about this from something like 2015. It could also be something that MS or Sony have rolled themselves and asked AMD to integrate in some way - they'll have been studying this for years.

Sony have an SSD line so they may be well placed to work with AMD on a level of integration that is unique to their partnership.

Sony and MS will probably want something a little more flexible than the current implementation in Vega, in that they may want to able to access from both CPU and GPU, and may want something that can more flexibly work as both extended "virtual memory" with low overhead access, and as a traditional SSD that's part of the filesystem, both at the same time.

There's a lot to the implementation in console that deals with how you integrate the drive into the "software stack" (as Cerny described it) and what kind of access you allow to the drive through the system's APIs. The developer facing side will be quite different from the Radeon SSG tools, and the hardware side is likely evolved even if Radeon SSG was the starting point.

 

[onQ123]

I think it's a continuation of what they have been doing for years now , they moved the memory onto the GPU , then they moved the CPU , GPU & memory together now they will be moving the storage with the CPU,GPU & memory.

 

[mckmas8808]

It [next gen SSD integration] is quite possibly derived from AMDs work on Radeon with SSD - Sony and MS have access to AMD's core IP roadmap when they're planning ahead, and would have known about this from something like 2015. It could also be something that MS or Sony have rolled themselves and asked AMD to integrate in some way - they'll have been studying this for years.

Sony have an SSD line so they may be well placed to work with AMD on a level of integration that is unique to their partnership.

Sony and MS will probably want something a little more flexible than the current implementation in Vega, in that they may want to able to access from both CPU and GPU, and may want something that can more flexibly work as both extended "virtual memory" with low overhead access, and as a traditional SSD that's part of the filesystem, both at the same time.

There's a lot to the implementation in console that deals with how you integrate the drive into the "software stack" (as Cerny described it) and what kind of access you allow to the drive through the system's APIs. The developer facing side will be quite different from the Radeon SSG tools, and the hardware side is likely evolved even if Radeon SSG was the starting point.

So if you are right, this will make whatever SSD option Sony comes up with clearly better than anything on the PC side right? Just purely due to the implementation of it within the software stack?

 

[Rolling_Start]

So if you are right, this will make whatever SSD option Sony comes up with clearly better than anything on the PC side right? Just purely due to the implementation of it within the software stack?

I image that whatever Sony does in terms of specialisation will give it an advantage in terms of not just traditional "load times" but also the speed and rate at which it can access chunks of data. To quote the Wired Article from earlier this year:

"At the moment, Sony won’t cop to exact details about the SSD—who makes it, whether it utilizes the new PCIe 4.0 standard—but Cerny claims that it has a raw bandwidth higher than any SSD available for PCs. That’s not all. “The raw read speed is important,“ Cerny says, “but so are the details of the I/O [input-output] mechanisms and the software stack that we put on top of them. I got a PlayStation 4 Pro and then I put in a SSD that cost as much as the PlayStation 4 Pro—it might be one-third faster." As opposed to 19 times faster for the next-gen console, judging from the fast-travel demo."

I don't honestly know what they mean in the bolded part, but on PC IO rate seems to be dependent upon the ssd controller, so I'm guessing they've done some work there (they have their own SSD line now, though I can't easily see anything about their controllers and don't know if that's even related). As for the software stack, that sounds like a combination of one or more of:

- APIs (probably both storage and graphics)
- filesystem (maybe tweaking allocation unit size?)
- drivers (how the CPU, GPU and storage communicate and coordinate)
- storage firmware (very low level stuff on how the ssd controller operates, assuming it has a typical controller)

A big part of making this work (whatever it is) probably includes exposing the right capabilities to developers through a simple but robust set of APIs. For example, allowing the developer to chose which data they copy to main memory, vs which they read direct from flash, vs which they pull from flash and then cache in main memory if it's not already there (as with PRTs). And stuff like that.

I mean, I'm speculating well beyond any real knowledge I have, but these are the things going through my mind. There are more exotic possibilities, but as psorcerer points out some of these might have further complications.

In terms of the PC, I think even the above would make it possible for the PS5 to have some advantages over a PC that loads and runs games as they all do right now. One thing in the PCs favour however is that - especialy at the high end - it can use large amounts of vram and potentially huge amounts of main ram to cache data.

I dunno how it's going to turn out. But it's certainly an interesting time to be drunkenly armchair quarterbacking hardware designs.

 

[Kenpachii]

PS5 will not have any advantages over the PC simple for the fact that the box is going to have static hardware that will sit at low/mid end when it launches. The SSD and Memory performance isn't going to migrate the gpu and cpu bottleneck which is the main factor for performance. Specially GPU is going to be the absolute bottleneck in those systems if they target high resolutions.

People are delusional if they think they will opt for any exotic storage space. it makes absolute zero sense. Because of the following reasons.

1) People can't buy USB harddrives if htey chose for nvme. or even replace it themselves. Which makes normal SSD form factor far more interesting.
2) Sony has to provide a large chunk of it in order for future games to not bottleneck on low amounts of space which will make it even more expensive
3) Money better spend on other things or even to reduce the sale price to be more competitive.
4) Loading times can be reduced without the need of faster harddrives a normal ssd will be far enough for next gen.
5) It could make sense to have it for large textures like 4-8k resolutions, but the GPU will already be choking to death next gen straight out of the gate, so i wonder if even a steady 4k resolution is ever going to happen.
6) Exotic hardware will most likely be ignored by most devs anyway at this point in time with everything being multiports. Stuff will simple be ignored and slammed on it and call it a day. So either sony will have to provide a team to port content towards there console with the speed in mind, but even then games won't be builded around it besides there first party solution.

But do they really need it for there first party solution after all those negatives it brings with it? highly doubtful.

There memory solution will already cost them enough and microsoft isn't going to let them walk away with a cheaper price this gen.

Just slam in a sata 3 SSD which is leagues above they have right now which makes perfect sense.

I just think that people are so hyperfocused on the SSD department because honestly everything else is just not much interesting on those boxes. It's going to be a boring gen either way.

 

[onQ123]

PS5 will not have any advantages over the PC simple for the fact that the box is going to have static hardware that will sit at low/mid end when it launches. The SSD and Memory performance isn't going to migrate the gpu and cpu bottleneck which is the main factor for performance. Specially GPU is going to be the absolute bottleneck in those systems if they target high resolutions.

People are delusional if they think they will opt for any exotic storage space. it makes absolute zero sense. Because of the following reasons.

1) People can't buy USB harddrives if htey chose for nvme. or even replace it themselves. Which makes normal SSD form factor far more interesting.
2) Sony has to provide a large chunk of it in order for future games to not bottleneck on low amounts of space which will make it even more expensive
3) Money better spend on other things or even to reduce the sale price to be more competitive.
4) Loading times can be reduced without the need of faster harddrives a normal ssd will be far enough for next gen.
5) It could make sense to have it for large textures like 4-8k resolutions, but the GPU will already be choking to death next gen straight out of the gate, so i wonder if even a steady 4k resolution is ever going to happen.
6) Exotic hardware will most likely be ignored by most devs anyway at this point in time with everything being multiports. Stuff will simple be ignored and slammed on it and call it a day. So either sony will have to provide a team to port content towards there console with the speed in mind, but even then games won't be builded around it besides there first party solution.

But do they really need it for there first party solution after all those negatives it brings with it? highly doubtful.

There memory solution will already cost them enough and microsoft isn't going to let them walk away with a cheaper price this gen.

Just slam in a sata 3 SSD which is leagues above they have right now which makes perfect sense.

I just think that people are so hyperfocused on the SSD department because honestly everything else is just not much interesting on those boxes. It's going to be a boring gen either way.

So after reading everything that has been said about the SSD in the PS5 you still think it's just a Sata 3 SSD?

How? lol

 

[DeepEnigma]

I think it's a continuation of what they have been doing for years now , they moved the memory onto the GPU , then they moved the CPU , GPU & memory together now they will be moving the storage with the CPU,GPU & memory.

This is what I think as well.

 

[Rolling_Start]

PS5 will not have any advantages over the PC simple for the fact that the box is going to have static hardware that will sit at low/mid end when it launches. The SSD and Memory performance isn't going to migrate the gpu and cpu bottleneck which is the main factor for performance. Specially GPU is going to be the absolute bottleneck in those systems if they target high resolutions.

People are delusional if they think they will opt for any exotic storage space. it makes absolute zero sense. Because of the following reasons.

1) People can't buy USB harddrives if htey chose for nvme. or even replace it themselves. Which makes normal SSD form factor far more interesting.
2) Sony has to provide a large chunk of it in order for future games to not bottleneck on low amounts of space which will make it even more expensive
3) Money better spend on other things or even to reduce the sale price to be more competitive.
4) Loading times can be reduced without the need of faster harddrives a normal ssd will be far enough for next gen.
5) It could make sense to have it for large textures like 4-8k resolutions, but the GPU will already be choking to death next gen straight out of the gate, so i wonder if even a steady 4k resolution is ever going to happen.
6) Exotic hardware will most likely be ignored by most devs anyway at this point in time with everything being multiports. Stuff will simple be ignored and slammed on it and call it a day. So either sony will have to provide a team to port content towards there console with the speed in mind, but even then games won't be builded around it besides there first party solution.

But do they really need it for there first party solution after all those negatives it brings with it? highly doubtful.

There memory solution will already cost them enough and microsoft isn't going to let them walk away with a cheaper price this gen.

Just slam in a sata 3 SSD which is leagues above they have right now which makes perfect sense.

I just think that people are so hyperfocused on the SSD department because honestly everything else is just not much interesting on those boxes. It's going to be a boring gen either way.

You're underthinking this.

Bottlenecks can move around a system depending upon what you load. One bottleneck can be how fast you access data in mass storage (both in terms of bandwidth and in terms of the number of individual accesses you can facilitate within a given space of time). It's one of the reasons that SSD reviews test bandwidth and IOPS.

If if you can access mass storage fast enough, with enough accesses per second, it can potentially free up large amounts of dram that would otherwise have to be used to pre-emptively load assets.

Another way of looking at it is that for a given amount of dram, you can effectively utilise assets of a higher quality with fewer pop-ins or stalls.

If they can gain an advantage in these areas at design time, with low hardware costs, MS and Sony would be stupid not to try and go beyond the typical PC use case of an SSD.

 

[Shangounchained]

This reads like a dream. I wish this is what Sony is doing.

It's exactly what we're getting because it's amd and tbeyve done it before and they are the onez responsible for nextgen consoles so in short well get 24-32 GB of gddr6 maximum of GPU ram and ssd proprietary virtual ram.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's exactly what we're getting because it's amd and tbeyve done it before and they are the onez responsible for nextgen consoles so in short well get 24-32 GB of gddr6 maximum of GPU ram and ssd proprietary virtual ram.

No way we get 32 GBs of RAM. Maybe 20GBs if we are lucky.

 

[Shangounchained]

No way we get 32 GBs of RAM. Maybe 20GBs if we are lucky.

I think they'll go overboard and give us 24-32 same way they surprised us with 8gb last gen and 12gb on Xbox one X ram has started to become cheaper and the real reason well get more than 16 or 20 is because ram is the most important thing in gaming and graphics it's the only thing that'll really show a new gen of visuals

 

[Shadowstar39]

This is all going over my head. I'll say this. Thank God SSD will be the default. Some of these load times were getting crazy already. PS5 with a standard HDD would have been a complete disaster.

You all thing ssd will be better? Games are coming on 80+gb disc's a small ssd will hold like 5 games or drive console prices through the roof. I hope there is normal HD storage too, as I have 4tb in my ps4 and I still have to delete games. I can't imagine be stuck with a 500gb ssd and no reasonably priced expansion. Ssd is just too costly.

 

[sendit]

So after reading everything that has been said about the SSD in the PS5 you still think it's just a Sata 3 SSD?

How? lol

PS5 will most likely have a SSD that interfaces with the MB via PCI Express (NVMe M.2). This has been available for PC for quite some time now.

 

[Shangounchained]

You all thing ssd will be better? Games are coming on 80+gb disc's a small ssd will hold like 5 games or drive console prices through the roof. I hope there is normal HD storage too, as I have 4tb in my ps4 and I still have to delete games. I can't imagine be stuck with a 500gb ssd and no reasonably priced expansion. Ssd is just too costly.

I don't think the ssd will be storage I'm starting to think it'll be more of ram maybe 128gb ssd ram and a 4tb HDD or a 1tb ssd removable storage, and if the rumoured catridges are true then it's proprietary and upgradable

 

[onQ123]

PS5 will most likely have a SSD that interfaces with the MB via PCI Express (NVMe M.2). This has been available for PC for quite some time now.

He /She said sata 3 SSD which is under a GBP/s we already know that PS5 SSD is faster than SATA3 SSDs

 

[onQ123]

I don't think the ssd will be storage I'm starting to think it'll be more of ram maybe 128gb ssd ram and a 4tb HDD or a 1tb ssd removable storage, and if the rumoured catridges are true then it's proprietary and upgradable

Cartridge rumor has been debunked

 

[Shangounchained]

I think they'll go overboard and give us 24-32 same way they surprised us with 8gb last gen and 12gb on Xbox one X ram has started to become cheaper and the real reason well get more than 16 or 20 is because ram is the most important thing in gaming and graphics it's the only thing that'll really show a new gen of visuals

It's gonna be 24-32 plus ssd vram cause where supposed to get 128gb of ram naturally but that's impossible maybe!

 

[onQ123]

 

[demigod]

O onQ123 , we know you're Cerny.

 

[onQ123]

O onQ123 , we know you're Cerny.

Actually I'm Krazy Ken they locked me in the tower but I escaped

 

[onQ123]

Next mind bending prediction: You will be able to play PS5 games on your PS4 , Xbox One , Xbox Scarlet , PC , Mac , Android phone & iPhone even if you don't own a PS5.

 

[mckmas8808]

Next mind bending prediction: You will be able to play PS5 games on your PS4 , Xbox One , Xbox Scarlet , PC , Mac , Android phone & iPhone even if you don't own a PS5.

Now that's just insane.

 

[onQ123]

Now that's just insane.

Think shareplay on roids being able to pass the controller to anyone who can click on the link.



Sony would pretty much have you dealing their drugs .


Having the games on a SSD means that people can jump right into these shared games.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Wait a minute...that's PCIe 5.0? That's nice and all, but you can basically double the lane rate for 8chip and 16chip to reach the same numbers on PCIe 4.0, which is what I'm assuming PS5 (and Scarlet) will be using.

 

[mckmas8808]

Think shareplay on roids being able to pass the controller to anyone who can click on the link.



Sony would pretty much have you dealing their drugs .


Having the games on a SSD means that people can jump right into these shared games.

OH!!! That way. Yeah that should happen next-gen. I thought you meant Sony would sell them the games directly.

 

[onQ123]

OH!!! That way. Yeah that should happen next-gen. I thought you meant Sony would sell them the games directly.

In the end it might end up that way but not while all the processing is being done on the server side.

That would be nice to have a universal compiler that would make the game playable on many devices once you buy it.

 

[PharaoTutAnchAmun]

Next mind bending prediction: You will be able to play PS5 games on your PS4 , Xbox One , Xbox Scarlet , PC , Mac , Android phone & iPhone even if you don't own a PS5.

1. Noppe that would be MS, you know..."the Cloud". I see all Xbox "exclusive" games on Playstation and all other devices than the oposite. So i see the oposite: all the "exclusive" Xbox and Xbox Scarlett games on the PS5

 

[onQ123]

Now that's just insane.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

Next mind bending prediction: You will be able to play PS5 games on your PS4 , Xbox One , Xbox Scarlet , PC , Mac , Android phone & iPhone even if you don't own a PS5.

What does the show have to do with this?

 

[onQ123]

What does the show have to do with this?

Spoiler: Joking

Or am I

 

[mckmas8808]

I still don't get how this is possible?

 

[DeepEnigma]

I still don't get how this is possible?

Money, that's how. Nothing stops Nintendo, Sony, or MS from developing on other platforms, other than themselves.

Diamond Dynasty has been rapidly growing every year, it would make sense to chase that FUT/MUD multi-plat revenue.

 

[mckmas8808]

Money, that's how. Nothing stops Nintendo, Sony, or MS from developing on other platforms, other than themselves.

Diamond Dynasty has been rapidly growing every year, it would make sense to chase that FUT/MUD multi-plat revenue.

So you're saying MLB is giving Sony millions of dollars per year to develop games on Nintendo and MS consoles?

 

[DeepEnigma]

So you're saying MLB is giving Sony millions of dollars per year to develop games on Nintendo and MS consoles?

No, what I am saying is, they probably worked out a deal to go multi-plat, and Sony saw the revenue opportunity with DD with that as well.

Remember, MLB has/had(?) their own in-house game with RBI Baseball that was multi-plat, so the "force them to go multi-plat" is not a sound theory some are trying to say.

They probably will not make RBI Baseball anymore (2021 on), other than mobile (maybe). Sony is in the driver seat with this gem of a sports sim in comparison to what else is out there... crickets.

 

[onQ123]

I still don't get how this is possible?

Theoretically PS4 , Xbox One & Switch games should already be hardware independent because of HSA

 

[onQ123]

No, what I am saying is, they probably worked out a deal to go multi-plat, and Sony saw the revenue opportunity with DD with that as well.

Remember, MLB has/had(?) their own in-house game with RBI Baseball that was multi-plat, so the "force them to go multi-plat" is not a sound theory some are trying to say.

They probably will not make RBI Baseball anymore (2021 on), other than mobile (maybe). Sony is in the driver seat with this gem of a sports sim in comparison to what else is out there... crickets.

https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/product/predator-hunting-grounds/home

 

[mckmas8808]

https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/product/predator-hunting-grounds/home

Is that the game that was just shown at State of Play yesterday?

 

[Panaphonics]

They will not. Sony is almost going bankrupt. Why should they invest so much money,

 

[Panaphonics]

Sony is in the driver seat with this gem of a sports sim in comparison to what else is out there... crickets.

What the fuck? No one outside of the US gives a shit about baseball. Did you ever hear about FIFA? Or PES? Or madden? Or NBA? lol WTF

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

What the fuck? No one outside of the US gives a shit about baseball. Did you ever hear about FIFA? Or PES? Or madden? Or NBA? lol WTF

Baseball's pretty popular in parts of the Caribbean, and Japan. Your thoughts on baseball are a lot of the world's thoughts on American football :S

 

[DeepEnigma]

What the fuck? No one outside of the US gives a shit about baseball. Did you ever hear about FIFA? Or PES? Or madden? Or NBA? lol WTF

Japan, Taiwan, China, Caribbean, Central and South America, US and Canada, etc..

Baseball in Taiwan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Chinese Professional Baseball League - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Baseball in Japan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Caribbean Series - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Baseball at the Central American and Caribbean Games - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even in Australia and other parts of the world.

History of baseball outside the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Shall I go on?

 

[Insane Metal]

O onQ123 you might be on to something here.

 

[Kenpachii]

So after reading everything that has been said about the SSD in the PS5 you still think it's just a Sata 3 SSD?

How? lol

I base my sata 3 ssd on that demo they showcased. It showcased a increase that directly correlates towards sata 3 ssd's.

if they push a higher or faster ssd in there, that benchmark they showcased was a piss poor one. not my fault.

 

[CAB_Life]

I presumed Sony was hinting at an M2? Maybe a NVMe M2 if we’re lucky? That would seem the likeliest solution (cost, speed, size, profile is perfect for consoles).

 

[LostDonkey]

How is this going to effect external HDDs for games.

If these systems are built with high speed internal ssds in mind especially tied directly to the performance of games, will it be detrimental to the overall experience to connect an external. Or are we going to end up with overpriced proprietary storage ala Vita.

Big questions for me that I never thought about until recently.

 

[ManaByte]

How is this going to effect external HDDs for games.

If these systems are built with high speed internal ssds in mind especially tied directly to the performance of games, will it be detrimental to the overall experience to connect an external. Or are we going to end up with overpriced proprietary storage ala Vita.

Big questions for me that I never thought about until recently.

Use an external for storage and copy the games over when needed.