LostDonkey
Member
That sounds like a huge ballache.
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How big of a game changer would it be if Sony is using a large amount of ReRAM as the PS5 SSD?
That sounds like a huge ballache.
ManaByte
Member
Not much of an option as there are external SSDs but they still don’t provide the same performance as a NVMe SSD. And they’re expensive.
Shangounchained
Banned
So i have a hunch sony will blow us out with the ps5's memory announcement just like they did with the 8gb gddr5 on ps4, reason why?
All consoles from the past had a 16x memory increase generation to generation and as we all know memory is too expensive this days and impossible to do the 16x jump over again from 8gb to 128gb,
But since sony delivered 8gb on ps4 theyll want to suprise us all and deliver 128gb on ps5 using a trick.
The trick is called "reram" so what if sony is planning to go with 128gb of reram plus a 16gb vram solution and since reram is just as fast as ddr4 they could actually claim they did the impossible jump and delivered it to us.... would be the perfect ps5 presentation! ....
Heres my source...
All consoles from the past had a 16x memory increase generation to generation and as we all know memory is too expensive this days and impossible to do the 16x jump over again from 8gb to 128gb,
But since sony delivered 8gb on ps4 theyll want to suprise us all and deliver 128gb on ps5 using a trick.
The trick is called "reram" so what if sony is planning to go with 128gb of reram plus a 16gb vram solution and since reram is just as fast as ddr4 they could actually claim they did the impossible jump and delivered it to us.... would be the perfect ps5 presentation! ....
Heres my source...
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How big of a game changer would it be if Sony is using a large amount of ReRAM as the PS5 SSD?
If the storage is this fast how will it change game development? it would blur the line between storage & main memory so full games could live inside of the main memory , You would have RAM that holds data even when you turn your console off or if there is a power outage , you could jump...
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
There's less than 0% chance of this happening. Come on man. lol
a multicultural team of v
Member
Why stop at 128 gigs, throw a fuckin' terabyte in there. It's your fantasy, go wild man!
Shangounchained
Banned
Reram is happening!
Shangounchained
Banned
Sony did talk about produxing reram chips in 2020 and they did say the ps5s proprietary ssd is faster than any on the market, plus what better way to start than on ps5 just kike they did bluray on ps3, 8gb gddr5 on ps4 and cell, sony like to surprise and do the impossible!
Nero_PR
Banned
Time to stack all my pen drives on boost mode!Remember those?
Makoto-Yuki
Gold Member
128gb RAM lmfao. no. do you have an idea how much that cost? if i wanted to put 128GB in my PC it'd cost about £900.
it will be somewhere between 16-32GB.
if anything it will be the SSD that is only 128GB capacity. are people really thinking we'll be getting a 1 or 2TB SSD?
it will be somewhere between 16-32GB.
if anything it will be the SSD that is only 128GB capacity. are people really thinking we'll be getting a 1 or 2TB SSD?
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Shangounchained
Banned
Yes the vram on ps5 is the usual is 16-24gb but the reram is 128gb,
Shangounchained
Banned
Read the whole post i said vram is 16gb and reram ssd is 128gb reram is like intel optane it sits between the hdd or ssd and dram and on this case the 128gb reram could sit directly om the ps5s gpu next to the vram!128gb RAM lmfao. no.
it will be somewhere between 16-32GB.
if anything it will be the SSD that is only 128GB capacity. are people really thinking we'll be getting a 1 or 2TB SSD?
Makoto-Yuki
Gold Member
do you actually know what you're talking about?
the RAM will be 16-32GB for both CPU/gpu. it is possible that the system will be able to use the SSD as virtual memory but it will be significantly slower than the RAM. for example, RAM can go up to about 25GB/s. the best SSD today can only do 6GB/s. using the SSD would be a huge bottleneck.
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Dee Dah Dave
Member
We are getting into the realm of "but but teh esram and move engines!" with all this Sony SSD and RAM talk.
Nero_PR
Banned
There is a high chance of being 16, but I think 24 is the way to go if Sony wants the base PS5 model to be relevant during the whole generation.
CyberPanda
Banned
Let people have dreams!128gb RAM lmfao. no. do you have an idea how much that cost? if i wanted to put 128GB in my PC it'd cost about £900.
it will be somewhere between 16-32GB.
if anything it will be the SSD that is only 128GB capacity. are people really thinking we'll be getting a 1 or 2TB SSD?
Shangounchained
Banned
Read the whole post before reacting reram is a memory type that sits between ssd or hdd and vram and sony is making it out for 2020
Makoto-Yuki
Gold Member
i did read the whole post before reacting.Read the whole post before reacting reram is a memory type that sits between ssd or hdd and vram and sony is making it out for 2020
Shangounchained
Banned
Then u didnt understand it
Makoto-Yuki
Gold Member
oh i quite understand how computers work
Shangounchained
Banned
How ironic then u must like reading my ram posts!
CyberPanda
Banned
Yea, you seem very knowledgeable!oh i quite understand how computers work
Shangounchained
Banned
Well then so whats the fuss about, what are u not getting here? Reram is a storage class ram, it sits between the hdd and dram, i didnt say its graphics vram!oh i quite understand how computers work
CameFromNearFuture
Banned
The VTXWHATEVER PC fanboy says that his "source" confirmed that ps5/SX gpu Will be like 1080/1080ti. Thats what he's cheering.
What a fucking fraud. The Guy got verified account not as an insider but he's allowed by the mods to post as If he was one without any, any warning message.
Just because he used to be a progammer, suddenly he can openly says he has an uncle on Company y and a friend on Studio x then he can post whatever he wants like he has access to (biased) secret infos that supoort his agenda ?
Come on now. Who he is ? A mod ?
What a fucking fraud. The Guy got verified account not as an insider but he's allowed by the mods to post as If he was one without any, any warning message.
Just because he used to be a progammer, suddenly he can openly says he has an uncle on Company y and a friend on Studio x then he can post whatever he wants like he has access to (biased) secret infos that supoort his agenda ?
Come on now. Who he is ? A mod ?
Shangounchained
Banned
Well some people just come online to piss people off and post shit u know everybody comes with his own agenda its the "www"
CameFromNearFuture
Banned
Yeah, your right.
I Just want to make sure Im not doing anything else other than demanding equality
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
SSDS are not stacked RAM; they use a different type of memory technology, Not-And (NAND) gate, which is a non-volatile (i.e the data isn't lost when power is turned off) memory. It lacks the bit/byte-addressable write operation functionality of true DRAM (and also of its sister technology, NOR flash), because data has to be erased in blocks, even if only a tiny bit of data within a block is actually what's being altered.
It has completely different memory management systems compared to RAM like DDR4 and GDDR6, and trades in overall performance (has much higher latencies, much lower speeds and much less bandwidth, as well as much less endurance on write operations) for long-term storage of data.
NAND is also designed primarily with sequential data access in mind, which is why most of the popular variants use serial interfaces. Whereas conventional RAM like DDR, GDDR, HBM etc. also excel at true random access. So, calling an SSD "RAM" like it is just another form of DDR is incorrect; it functions very differently and the memory controllers for NAND function very differently than those for "L5" cache memories like DDR and GDDR (I call them L5 because some systems have actual L4 caches, which are usually off-chip and measure in MBs, usually some kind of variant of SRAM like PSRAM; others may use NVDIMM and newer more experimental systems are utilizing STT-MRAM chips for L4 caches).
....as for PS5 and (non-embedded) ReRAM...
It's actually somewhat possible it can happen. I mentioned before but let's do it again: Intel sells DC Persistent Memory (DRAM-style implementation) Optane memory to server markets at 128GB for about $842 (low end) to $893 (high end). Per GB breaks down to $6.58 - $6.97. If we liken the pricing model to, say, modern GPUs, we can assume that Intel sells to server markets for 2.5x increase over the actual BOM. So the potential actual production costs per GB of DC PCM is more like $2.63 - $2.77.
However, since these are enterprise big data and server markets, they may actually pay a larger premium for the components, so let's reduce the per GB MSRP by 3x. That would potentially leave production costs per GB to $2.19 - $2.31. And let's assume ReRAM, being a comparable technology with somewhat better performance, has a max 5% additional cost to that. So that would leave per GB cost of ReRAM production for a company like Sony (who likely wouldn't need to license out an IP since IIRC they already make some ReRAM of their own) to around $2.29 - $2.42.
$2.29 to $2.42, for one GB of ReRAM. Now let's say Sony has a BOM per PS5 set to $600 (and they're planning to sell at $499). 64GB of ReRAM would only cost them about $146.56 - $154.88 to implement. Comparatively that's not TOO much more than they're looking to pay for, say, 24GB of GDDR6, and would still leave them with between $445.12 and $453.44 to cover the rest of the system components and production costs. That's likely more than plenty.
And I'm simply being conservative with the cost per GB to manufacture; at the quantities Sony would produce ReRAM for, and the fact they could likely handle most of the production themselves and won't need to license out an IP, they could probably see closer to a reduction on MSRP by 3.5x in terms of actual per GB production costs. That would see actual per GB production costs down to $1.97 - $2.08. (factoring in a 5% additional cost vs. Intel's tech). So in such a case, 64GB of ReRAM would cost them about $126.08 to $133.12 which in turn would leave them with even more of the BOM for other components, maybe even a bit more ReRAM if they felt like it.
Anyone still saying ReRAM for PS5 is virtually impossible (or even something analogous to it for XSEX; MS still hasn't revealed all the specs yet) isn't seeing the forest from the trees. It's a real possibility, and would offer a hefty bump in overall system performance while also offering something that is not present on the PC side at this moment and likely won't be until after these systems launch. For reference, the only similar offering in the consumer PC space is Intel's slower storage-style Optane memory that's closer to NAND than DRAM in terms of performance, but still notably faster than NAND. It's offered in 32GB and 64GB capacities but has only seen "very soft" uptake from PC consumers, mainly because of the fact there aren't any games or multimedia software designed with its use in mind, leaving it appealing mainly only for content creators.
Don't be surprised if you see a ReRAM implementation in PS5 around reveal time and/or MS mentions something like it present in the XSEX (possibly in partnership with Intel). I think the problem some are having in comprehending this being a possibility is that they're thinking of ReRAM like another take on conventional RAM. No, that's not quite what ReRAM is. It doesn't compare whatsoever with HBM, GDDR6 or even upcoming DDR5 in terms of speed and latency, which is why it's viewed more as "hovering" closer to a cold storage solution but still "hot" enough in performance to line up with older volatile memories like DDR4. Of course, it has the permanent storage capabilities of a SSD or HDD, just with much better endurance levels, read, and write capabilies than the NAND in general SSDs.
If you don't view it as an "L5" cache similar to what GDDR6 will be in the upcoming systems (I'm assuming they'll have some off-chip L4 cache in MBs; if not then the GDDR6/DDR4 etc. you can just say are the L4 cache), but as an "L6 cache" sitting between the GDDR6 and NAND-based SSD (which would be the "L7" or cold-storage cache level), then that helps a lot in seeing its role in the system architecture. And again, we're just talking non-embedded ReRAM in this (embedded ReRAM is something of a different topic).
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Shangounchained
Banned
Nice breakdown explanation, i just simply have a big hunch that sony or ms have an itching to mention "128gb ram!" Something tells me n its y theyr both quiet on memory! Im guessing 112 gb reram + 16gb vram for a total of 128gb and theyll solder it directly to the gpu same as the radeon ssg card
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pc...radeon-pro-ssg-pairs-vega-with-2tb-of-memory/
Whats even more weird the radeon ssg card has 12.4 teraflops same as the series x and ps5 roumors! At this point after seeing hellblade 2 and the 12 teraflop series x anything is possible! Im calling it both consoles will use it and would be 600-700$.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Overall I think ReRAM could be a real possibility, but any more than 64GB will depend on how low they can get the per GB cost, and both Sony and Microsoft have pathways to accomplish this, more or less.
But I don't think either are going to be selling at $700 or even $600. $500 will most likely be the ceiling for MSRP on either system, but the BOM could be closer to $600 or, getting crazy, even slightly beyond that (say $625 or so).
Shangounchained
Banned
I think they wont care about pricing this time around, i think they are both tired of this "iphones are 1000$" amd consoles are below 500" i think they are tired of that crap and arent ready to suffer because of a cultural created ceiling! They want the profits just as phone companies and since microsoft is selling series x on contract instalments then im really sure both sony and ms have talked about it and will be 600-700
Nero_PR
Banned
Both Microsoft and Sony will sell the consoles at a loss, I guess $499 for the console + a game and 1 year of signature to Live or Plus should be under their sales forecast. At max a $599 price. But this is just me making predictions from my ass.
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Trimesh
Banned
One thing that's really confusing me about this is that AFAIK the largest commercially available RERAM product at present is 8Mbit - or 1M byte - and that was only released earlier this year. Even talking about 32GB of this stuff seems fanciful because it would require the size of the devices to be scaled up by a factor of many thousands.
Nero_PR
Banned
This could have the opposite effect for the general consumer. Phones get a "pass" because they are considered a necessity/utility product, so making contracts are not far fetched and keeps the market warm and ever-growing, in other words, it generates interest. I don't see the lowest common denominator consumer wanting to get stuck to a contract with a product that is mostly seen as leisure/entertainment expense. I could be wrong, maybe this could work in the US, Europe, and some other places. But what about other markets in general?
Shangounchained
Banned
16gb 12 teraflops gpu is the performance of a radeon ssg which sales for 7000$ and a quadro 5000 so theres a slim chance this consoles arent 700 dollars, just hellblades tech breackfown says it all!
nemiroff
Gold Member
I don't think comparing a videogame console with a phone will do them any favors. A phone is arguably the most important device in most people's lives.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Problem there though is that MS's subsidization plan is limited in terms of reach, and who'll be able to apply. You also have to "trade upwards", meaning you don't actually start with XSEX but something like a One X or One S instead, and can then "trade up" about 12 or so months later.
Most people with iPhones do NOT actually buy them outright; they couldn't afford them otherwise. So instead the subscription plan with their carrier bakes in the cost of the phone with the subscription. Carrier networks and subscriptions for smartphones is an industry-wide, globally-implemented system with standardized protocols. The gaming industry doesn't have anything approaching near that scale, not yet anyway.
MS and Sony would rather people spend the extra $100 they could tack onto the MSRP, for online subscriptions, software, peripherals etc, where their profit margins are higher (in some cases, MUCH higher. Peripherals, for example, and digital purchases being another). That's the main reason I don't see them retailing their systems higher than $499.99. However, I can see the BOM (Build of Materials) pushing anywhere from $500 to $625.
Yeah, that's the most likely scenario. I don't see a $599 MSRP happening though; neither system is using particularly super-new, super-proprietary or super high-cost tech in their builds. The most (relatively) exotic tech either might end up using is integrated ReRAM/Optane PCM-style memory as a cache between GDDR6 and the SSD.
Which, if my calculations are at least somewhat on the money, wouldn't actually be that expensive for them to implement at a decent capacity (64GB, maybe even up to 96GB) on a $500 - $600 BOM, just depends on how low they can get the per GB cost for the ReRAM/Optane style memory form (preferably to near $1.50 - $1.80 per GB)
Shangounchained
Banned
I dont believe that a 1000$ phone and even now 1500$ phone is a necessity, amd secondly necessities are cheaper than leisure goods, 300$ smartphone is more than enough you can email use all the apps phone people add more memory if its android, im using a motorolla g5 i bought it for 70$ and its more than enough,
its fraud how iphones get away with 1000$ phones especially when something like a console with 12 teraflops is suggested to cost less its a joke!
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
No no, that's embedded ReRAM you're looking at. I made the same mistake about a month or two ago before looking into it more. That's when I came across companies like Crossbar Inc., who have non-embedded ReRAM in GB capacities. This is info on their storage-style ReRAM T-Series for example.
There're obviously differences between embedded and non-embedded ReRAM, therefore when discussing ReRAM here we're mainly talking about off-chip, non-embedded type like the linked T-Series.
Nero_PR
Banned
You are totally right about prices, I feel bad for people that change phones annually, even though the changes can get really subtle from model to model of the series and brands. The problem here lies in Trend. Market Trend/Tendency is what led the phone market to be what it is today, and after that, there is hardly any turn back chance. I've been using my Xperia XZ Premium for two years now and it has been working flawlessly. Yeah, I may have paid $800 back then, but I'm sure that it will get a lot more mileage with me.
I can see the console market wanting to get out of their own trend of "$400/$500 or Blow!". If they can start a new trend, in a few years from here we will be dealing with better consoles in general, but we can expect tiers from $600 to $1000 or even more. At the end of the day, it is all a case of supply and demand.
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nemiroff
Gold Member
That's not how the psychology works here as far as I see it. A phone IS the most important device in people's lives, thus the priority of how people is willing to sink more money into it is often pushed to and over the top. MOREOVER, a phone is also a very strong and important status symbol which shouldn't be underestimated. And not to mention you also need a fairly new or "good" TV to get the best out of a new console which will add to the factors when estimating willingness to invest more in a console.
Although I agree that the psychological $500 wall is out of date in many ways, changing the "culture" is probably going to be a lot harder than you think.
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Shangounchained
Banned
They sell millions of iphones every year despite having high prices and nothing technically really advanced since the iphone 5, its fraud they come up saying we removed the button and head phone jack, then the whole mob goes yaaaaaay! Its sick n stupid,
Consoles otherwise have to be designed with alot of investments and next generations always have to show that fresh power and graphical gap they have to push everything they can to satisfy gamers and fans, everybody wants a playstation or a xbox but nobody wants to pay for it! This silly culture should end! People cant be buying 1000$ phones, 500$ shoes and riot when a ps5 is 700$ otherwise they shpuld stop making new consoles and call it a day cause as much as i wish a ps5 to be 100$ it just isnt fare!
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Shangounchained
Banned
Not really what to u mean by priority people have 3 phones sometimes just to show off i have a 70$ phone and dont feel i need a 1000$ phone because its a priority, i mean who says that! Theres plenty of phones at 300$ if somebody needed a phone so bad hell get those ones, anybody paying 1000$ for a phone is looking for luxury,
I have a illegal friend working and earning 40£ a day on a carwash and he has a iphone x i asked why and he said because its iphone and i have to show off, so dont tell me the necessity stuff ive been there and it isnt!
Trimesh
Banned
I know about Crossbar - they have been claiming this stuff is going to revolutionize storage for at least 5 years. But I can't see any actual parts. If you go to Samsung and say you want a 1TB flash device then you can quickly find a part number (like "KLUGGAR1FA-B2C1") - which represents an actual physical part you can buy from distributors. Sure, they are a fabless company, but that wouldn't stop them from going to a foundry and having the parts made if they they a real manufacturable design.
So the unavoidable conclusion is that they don't and are currently in the process of either looking for someone with very deep pockets to pay for getting it to the point where it can be made or the whole thing is just based on the hope of getting someone to do a buyout to get the IP (probably this, since it's a VC funded company and they typically want a quick exit).