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[Tommy Fisher]

So presumably these tweaks and customization's are mainly to get the best out of the SSD? I'm also now thinking this has to be custom HBM but I worry about the cost of this and then the final console price.

2 more months....

BOM ~ $600
Retail Price = $500
Loss - $100
Sounds like a safe bet

Is at all reasonable to expect 3D stacked chips?

reasonable

 

[TLZ]

Is at all reasonable to expect 3D stacked chips?

Thanks for making me hungry at 12am

 

[TeamGhobad]

BOM ~ $600
Retail Price = $500
Loss - $100
Sounds like a safe bet

for ps5. MS will break even.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

BOM ~ $600
Retail Price = $500
Loss - $100
Sounds like a safe bet


reasonable

I agree it is a safe bet but it really doesn't jive with Jim Ryan's comments in his last interview. It screamed of selling PS5 faster than PS4 and that just won't be possible at that high a price. The hardcore 2-3 million will pay almost any price but then what about after that? The remaining market is very much price first.

 

[megreotsugua]

reasonable

1GB ram stacked on top of APU acting as L4 cache at 1.3TB/s + 16GB/24GB GDDR6. Am I getting somewhere or am I getting nowhere?

(I'm using the supposed MS Arcturus "leak" as reference.)

 

[megreotsugua]

reasonable

Is it fair to hope for an AI chip?

 

[Ar¢tos]

But the bar is already too high for the Solid State Drive as some of us are hoping for ReRAM-based SSD. (Not saying it's their fault.)

To be fair though, I'd still be happy for a Nand Flash SSD. It's just that I fail to see how Sony can pull an advantage using nand chips. MS can source from the many Nand Flash SSD vendors (hardware and software) for that enterprise ultra-fast SSD to match whatever Sony is putting out. Unless they're unwilling to match Sony's Nand SSD.

But you can have the same chips with different performances depending on other factors. (normal pcie4 controller vs custom controller, read optimized fw vs general performance fw, etc).

 

[TeamGhobad]

Is at all reasonable to expect 3D stacked chips?

possible. ps5 does not use "standard" gddr6 setup thats almost 100% certain. if it they would have said it by now.

 

[megreotsugua]

But you can have the same chips with different performances depending on other factors. (normal pcie4 controller vs custom controller, read optimized fw vs general performance fw, etc).

I get that. But I think that other SSD vendors that are already decades in the business must have a stack of patents that can cater to a read-centric need too. Whatever software stack and I/O optimization that Sony have invented could be matched by MS if MS is willing to collaborate or outsource software solutions (assuming MS doesn't have one).

Sony could really have invented a very fast controller and read optimized I/O I have no doubt about that, but I doubt that that kind of technique and technology is exclusive to Sony. Surely other companies especializing in memory storage solutions have an equivalent solution. They can cook one for MS if Ms is willing to.

 

[Racer!]

I agree it is a safe bet but it really doesn't jive with Jim Ryan's comments in his last interview. It screamed of selling PS5 faster than PS4 and that just won't be possible at that high a price. The hardcore 2-3 million will pay almost any price but then what about after that? The remaining market is very much price first.

Hardcore market worldwide is much much larger than 2-3 million....more like x10 that.

Then they got 5nm euv in about a year, with 1.8x density....and other options.

They wont be selling PS5`s at a faster rate than PS4 if its not a proper jump in performance.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Hardcore market worldwide is much much larger than 2-3 million....more like x10 that.

Then they got 5nm euv in about a year, with 1.8x density....and other options.

They wont be selling PS5`s at a faster rate than PS4 if its not a proper jump in performance.

In total sure, but I should have been more clear. The 2-3 million is just for PS5 in the first 3-6 months. If this gen is anything to go by then price cuts and console revisions will be at a minimum.

I've said before that pricing the console lower or lower than expected but then keeping it at that price for years instead of coming in higher and then doing regular price cuts is the better way of doing it.

Sony are clearly going to do the above model again going by their globalisation and streamlining changes Jim Ryan talked about in his Gamesindustry interview.

All IMO of course.

 

[onQ123]

Sorry is this 16 bit?

Nope! they will both be closer to 30TF fp16

 

[ANIMAL1975]

So far @VFXVeteran is the only legit, verified/vetted insider I've seen so far. I think the rest of the so-called "insiders" are just fakes, looking for attention and a whole lot of hopeful people keep falling for it.

If my memory doesn't fail on me, this happened because of a tech discussion with N Negotiator and others, where he was constantly bragging to be a programmer, later clarifying that works on a company doing stuff for the military, but with background in the industry (so, something like Klee). Then people started to call him out because of tech mambo jambo he didn't know, or wasn't up to date, and begun to doubt the truth of his professional claims. To my understanding, that was what he asked (or was asked by a mod, because there was warning for derailing the thread) to be vetted for, not for insider informations that he shared, or was claiming to have.

Like we often say in Portugal, "se a minha avó tivesse rodas, seria um camião"

"If my grandmother had wheels, she would be a truck"

Se a ferradura desse sorte o burro não puxava carroças...

The kind of Memory and tech behind Solid State Drive definitely are the most mysterious things about PS5 that Sony puts a super special emphasis on them unlike the GPU and CPU which basically are the same as SeX. Be ready for some huge meltdowns.

What about ram Tommy... not meltdown material winkemogi

?!?
The version I know is :
"se a minha avó tivesse rodas, seria uma trotinete"

Maybe grandmas are bigger in your area.

Já dizia aquele velho ditado: a pressa é inimiga da perfeição... haste is the enemy of perfection.

 

[Rossco EZ]

The kind of Memory and tech behind Solid State Drive definitely are the most mysterious things about PS5 that Sony puts a super special emphasis on them unlike the GPU and CPU which basically are the same as SeX. Be ready for some huge meltdowns.

could you say anything more on the cooling solution the ps5 will use? anything at all?

 

[TeamGhobad]

IGN thinks its 600dollars

 

[DJ12]

possible. ps5 does not use "standard" gddr6 setup thats almost 100% certain. if it they would have said it by now.

So they have given vague details about certain elements of the console tech and you would've expected a reveal about the memory?

Nope, there will be a reveal were we learn the intricacies of the console and that will be that. None of this twice over soft reveal and Twitter shills Microsoft are currently favouring.

 

[TeamGhobad]

So they have given vague details about certain elements of the console tech and you would've expected a reveal about the memory?

Nope, there will be a reveal were we learn the intricacies of the console and that will be that. None of this twice over soft reveal and Twitter shills Microsoft are currently favouring.

they already revealed zen 2 cpu 8 cores and AMD Navi Gpu in that article with cerny. i think even SSD.

Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStation

Don't expect it anytime in 2019, but the next PlayStation console is well on its way—and it's packing ray-tracing support and a loadtime-killing solid-state hard drive.

www.wired.com

 

[onQ123]

It doesn't go that far but there will be some noticeable tweaks/customizations by the platform holder.

512-bit? or is it the amount that's special?

 

[Ar¢tos]

I get that. But I think that other SSD vendors that are already decades in the business must have a stack of patents that can cater to a read-centric need too. Whatever software stack and I/O optimization that Sony have invented could be matched by MS if MS is willing to collaborate or outsource software solutions (assuming MS doesn't have one).

Sony could really have invented a very fast controller and read optimized I/O I have no doubt about that, but I doubt that that kind of technique and technology is exclusive to Sony. Surely other companies especializing in memory storage solutions have an equivalent solution. They can cook one for MS if Ms is willing to.

Yes, of course. I wasn't even thinking about ms/Sony, just a general approach.
There are already read(-ish) optimized file systems for pc, but since most gaming happens on windows people don't even realize it, windows kinda forces NTFS. But when you deal with Linux/FreeBSD you realize that there are a lot of possible file systems (some dead but still usable , some experimental) , each with its positives and negatives.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

IGN thinks its 600dollars

Hmmm......All I will say is I very much doubt their $600 guess. What are the current best deals/bundle prices available for One X in America?

 

[TeamGhobad]

Hmmm......All I will say is I very much doubt their $600 guess. What are the current best deals/bundle prices available for One X in the America?

gamestop has them on sale now for 3700kr from 5200kr in sweden, i bought one earlier this week for 1800kr cause i had bonus points. 10kr = 1dollar

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

gamestop has them on sale now for 3700kr from 5200kr in sweden, i bought one earlier this week for 1800kr cause i had bonus points. 10kr = 1dollar

Yeah the same in the UK. £279 (from £449) for the Jedi: Fallen Order deluxe bundle plus Tekken 7 and Project cars 2 for example. Take off the 20% VAT and that would be ~$290.

 

[B_Boss]

i never seen anyone play in their living room on a tv with headphones.

Uhh...I do and have 99% of the time lol. What I mean is via the headphone jack on the controller.

 

[Ultradsa]

they already revealed zen 2 cpu 8 cores and AMD Navi Gpu in that article with cerny. i think even SSD.

Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStation

Don't expect it anytime in 2019, but the next PlayStation console is well on its way—and it's packing ray-tracing support and a loadtime-killing solid-state hard drive.

www.wired.com

That same Article also states that the gold standard will be Headphones because of the 3d Audio hardware.

 

[megreotsugua]

Yes, of course. I wasn't even thinking about ms/Sony, just a general approach.
There are already read(-ish) optimized file systems for pc, but since most gaming happens on windows people don't even realize it, windows kinda forces NTFS. But when you deal with Linux/FreeBSD you realize that there are a lot of possible file systems (some dead but still usable , some experimental) , each with its positives and negatives.

Therefore, Sony's and MS's Nand Flash SSD solution shouldn't be that far away in performance unless MS is unwilling to match Sony's. MS can also optimize their SSD, but if not, they can always get help from third-party SSD companies.

or . . . . .

 

[TeamGhobad]

That same Article also states that the gold standard will be Headphones because of the 3d Audio hardware.

Therefore, Sony's and MS's Nand Flash SSD solution shouldn't be that far away in performance unless MS is unwilling to match Sony's. MS can also optimize their SSD, but if not, they can always get help from third-party SSD companies.

or . . . . .

to me it sounds like sony is doing something very custom with their ssd and ms is just using an off the shelf device.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Therefore, Sony's and MS's Nand Flash SSD solution shouldn't be that far away in performance unless MS is unwilling to match Sony's. MS can also optimize their SSD, but if not, they can always get help from third-party SSD companies.

or . . . . .

We've seen how different companies prioritize different things. Sony is the one promoting no loadings, so the pressure is on them for fast speed, MS might be OK with stock speed (that is already a massive upgrade over HDDs) and be prioritizing other things. We can't know until specs are out.

 

[DJ12]

they already revealed zen 2 cpu 8 cores and AMD Navi Gpu in that article with cerny. i think even SSD.

Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStation

Don't expect it anytime in 2019, but the next PlayStation console is well on its way—and it's packing ray-tracing support and a loadtime-killing solid-state hard drive.

www.wired.com

So some vague details then as I said....

 

[TeamGhobad]

So some vague details then as I said....

not vague only thing missing is RAM setup

 

[xool]

PS5 chip being retested most likely they are doing the 2.1GHz tests

Why you think that?

XSX 52CUs (3328 SP) at 1.8GHz, I can see that happening, but 2.1GHz?

DemonCleaner chart shows 2.1GHz OC on first gen Navi will result in 100w penalty compared to 1.8GHz. I'm not saying sony cant surprise people with 400 TDP monster, but with current knowledge 2.1GHz is pretty much unrealistic scenario.

afaik 5700s are first gen 7nm, TSMC's N7P is supposed to give +7% (clocks) at the same power (+10% for N7+ (mobile?)) - which gets it a lot nearer to 2.1GHz (but not quite) from the 1.9GHz the chip mostly ran at ..

 

[onQ123]

Why you think that?


afaik 5700s are first gen 7nm, TSMC's N7P is supposed to give +7% (clocks) at the same power (+10% for N7+ (mobile?)) - which gets it a lot nearer to 2.1GHz (but not quite) from the 1.9GHz the chip mostly ran at ..

Because of things I read over the last year that match up

 

[Racer!]

In total sure, but I should have been more clear. The 2-3 million is just for PS5 in the first 3-6 months. If this gen is anything to go by then price cuts and console revisions will be at a minimum.

I've said before that pricing the console lower or lower than expected but then keeping it at that price for years instead of coming in higher and then doing regular price cuts is the better way of doing it.

Sony are clearly going to do the above model again going by their globalisation and streamlining changes Jim Ryan talked about in his Gamesindustry interview.

All IMO of course.

So youre saying a 399$ 8TF console would sell faster than PS4 and last a long time at a "high price", when lets say Microsoft launches 12TF at 499$? And you believe thats the direction Sony is going to take?

Or did you mean Sony should sell a 13TF machine, take 100$ loss and sell at 449$/499$? Or maybe even 200$ loss and sell at 399$?

 

[Kdad]

Thanks for making me hungry at 12am

And for the Xbox fans....

 

[StrongGuy]

I think MS lost the most important generation (This gen).
I expect PS5 to be noticeably stronger than the XseX, but even if PS5 were slightly weaker, I'd still go with PS5 due to backwards compatibility.

 

[megreotsugua]

to me it sounds like sony is doing something very custom with their ssd and ms is just using an off the shelf device.

We've seen how different companies prioritize different things. Sony is the one promoting no loadings, so the pressure is on them for fast speed, MS might be OK with stock speed (that is already a massive upgrade over HDDs) and be prioritizing other things. We can't know until specs are out.

Therefore, my suggestion that MS might be unwilling to match Sony's solution might be true. I would say bad move on MS part if Sony's SSD is indeed highly optimized and MS is off-the-shelf part.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Therefore, my suggestion that MS might be unwilling to match Sony's solution might be true. I would say bad move on MS part if Sony's SSD is indeed highly optimized and MS is off-the-shelf part.

Why? I think 5gb/s is way more than enough and Sony is just wasting resources trying to go higher than that. Players don't mind very short loading times, no need to chase zero loadings.

 

[megreotsugua]

Why? I think 5gb/s is way more than enough and Sony is just wasting resources trying to go higher than that. Players don't mind very short loading times, no need to chase zero loadings.

It's about that touted Sony SSD advantage. Unless it doesn't exist, then MS shot themselves on the foot by not optimizing their SSD too.

Or maybe Sony's solution really is one of a kind. MS might be customized too but not up to the degree of Sony's.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

So youre saying a 399$ 8TF console would sell faster than PS4 and last a long time at a "high price", when lets say Microsoft launches 12TF at 499$? And you believe thats the direction Sony is going to take?

Or did you mean Sony should sell a 13TF machine, take 100$ loss and sell at 449$/499$? Or maybe even 200$ loss and sell at 399$?

I didn't mention anything about 8TF!? but I would err toward lower price ($399/$449) with a loss and then keep the price high for years like they have done with PS4. All this based on what they did with PS4 and what the likes of Jim Ryan has been saying. Keeping as many of their PS+ subs is their main goal and to do that they have to convince the vast majority of more casual gamers (who play one/two games) to buy a PS5 ASAP. They won't at $500/£500.

I have to say as well that I do believe there is a lot of exaggeration of the BOM of various parts. I remember when we found out about PS4's 8GB GDDR5 and everyone was like $200 just for the RAM! Then $399 was announced.....

You'll probably keel over laughing if I gave my estimated cost to MS/Sony for 16GB of GDDR6!

 

[StrongGuy]

Why? I think 5gb/s is way more than enough and Sony is just wasting resources trying to go higher than that. Players don't mind very short loading times, no need to chase zero loadings.

And what about recording/editing/storing media?

 

[SmokSmog]

PS5 chip being retested most likely they are doing the 2.1GHz tests

going from 13.31 to 13.97 TF


(Edit: I must have been sleepy last night because I typed 'most likely' then came back & edited it into 'must likely' lol)

2.1GHZ? WTF You have no clue, 2.1Ghz is long past efficiency clocks. RX 5700XT is consuming 250-300W at 2.1ghz and have only 40cus

 

[Racer!]

I didn't mention anything about 8TF!? but I would err toward lower price ($399/$449) with a loss and then keep the price high for years like they have done with PS4. All this based on what they did with PS4 and what the likes of Jim Ryan has been saying. Keeping has many of their PS+ subs is their main goal and to do that they have to convince the vast majority of more casual gamers (who play one/two games) need to buy a PS5 ASAP. They won't at $500/£500.

I have to say as well that I do believe there is a lot of exaggeration of the BOM of various parts. I remember when we found out about PS4's 8GB GDDR5 and everyone was like $200 just for the RAM! Then $399 was announced.....

You'll probably keel over laughing if I gave my estimated cost to MS/Sony for 16GB of GDDR6!

With a 399$ there would be sacrifices, like 8TF and such...or they would have to take a larger hit....or as you say the BOM is an exaggeriation.

I am one of the few that thinks that even 599$ is not too high. This has been taken as gospel, but its just really a wrong extrapolation of what happened with PS3. PS3 was more expensive with less performance than the competition, thats not going to fly in any situation or at any price point.

With the right performance, it would sell like hotcakes even @599$. Granted, that price would have to be lowered in about a year or two, but thats totally doable with 5nm/3nm coming up.

 

[onQ123]

Why? I think 5gb/s is way more than enough and Sony is just wasting resources trying to go higher than that. Players don't mind very short loading times, no need to chase zero loadings.

It isn't only about loading times some data is streamed in real-time so a 60fps game would only get 83MB per frame out of a 5GB/s SSD

 

[onQ123]

2.1GHZ? WTF You have no clue, 2.1Ghz is long past efficiency clocks. RX 5700XT is consuming 250-300W at 2.1ghz and have only 40cus

We will see

 

[Aceofspades]

Why? I think 5gb/s is way more than enough and Sony is just wasting resources trying to go higher than that. Players don't mind very short loading times, no need to chase zero loadings.

Never say never to faster data in technology....NEVER

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

With a 399$ there would be sacrifices, like 8TF and such...or they would have to take a larger hit....or as you say the BOM is an exaggeriation.

I am one of the few that thinks that even 599$ is not too high. This has been taken as gospel, but its just really a wrong extrapolation of what happened with PS3. PS3 was more expensive with less performance than the competition, thats not going to fly in any situation or at any price point.

With the right performance, it would sell like hotcakes even @599$. Granted, that price would have to be lowered in about a year or two, but thats totally doable with 5nm/3nm coming up.

Now we just wait and see which way it goes. Exciting either way!

 

[SmokSmog]

Reasonable
Xbox Series X
60CUs 1575MHZ 12TF


Sony Stupid unreal

48CUs 2.1GHZ 12.9TF

 

[Racer!]

Now we just wait and see which way it goes. Exciting either way!

Most certainly! I really like your avatar btw. Best console ever!

 

[megreotsugua]

Just to be clear guys, I'm just trying to push my ReRAM agenda. I'm not undermining the performance of the PS5's possibly faster ssd.

 

[SmokSmog]

Max 1800MHZ for both consoles. Realistic 1600MHZ

XBOX Series X 1575mhz 60CUs 12TF with optional 1750MHz 13.4TF last minute upclock.


Playstation 5 unknown number of CUs 1500-1800mhz range.

 

[Mass Shift]

Are you for real? People can't accept 12 and you're going for 14?

Not hating, just things are getting out of hand with these numbers and we never get any concrete info. Its so wishy washy.

I know they just keep pushing it higher and higher.