Apollo Helios
Member
512 bit is nigh impossible in GDDR6 age as it requires giant memory controllers right on the die, where space is prime estate (especially for console APUs). So nope, no bigger than 320 bit I think.
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Zero707
If I carry on trolling, report me.
Navi21 full chip is 56CU
If it's 80 CU design it's 512bit bus.
WhispersintheWind
Member
How many stream cores and Rops
Per Cu in RDNA2 ?
Per Cu in RDNA2 ?
Matreios Raven
Member
Or 512 GB/s?
Disco_
Member
The design is likely cheaper than traditional console design. Look at how much free space is in the thing. They spent less on designing components to fit together and saved again by having a simple cube shaped enclosure. That fan probably cost them a few nickels.
Nope 448 or 896gb/sec.
KURDISTAN YPG
Member
So 16g ram memory will hold back the 12 tf of xbox series x,
sorry fellas not tech guy
but does this mean they will use like 5g for Os?
sorry fellas not tech guy
but does this mean they will use like 5g for Os?
Shambala
Member
Posts like this right here
mitchman
Gold Member
Sony is using clang, as to many others, including my company. We still use VS for debugging, as does Sony.
I don't see how anyone could possibly be expecting the PS5 to be near as powerful as the Xbox Series X. Look at the size of the Series X, and still how compactly everything is packed inside.
Sony absolutely is not going to release a console that large. Japanese consoles always tend to be significantly smaller than amercian consoles. The PS5 will be smaller and less powerful.
I am not biased at all in saying that. I want the PS5 to be more powerful. I will be buying the PS5 at launch and not the series X, only because of Playstation VR2.
If Microsoft supports Oculus and/or Valve's VR headsets for the Series X, then I will consider going with Xbox, but as things stand, I will instead be getting the PS5. But there is just no chance the PS5 will be as large as the series x to be able to pack 50+ cus.
Sony absolutely is not going to release a console that large. Japanese consoles always tend to be significantly smaller than amercian consoles. The PS5 will be smaller and less powerful.
I am not biased at all in saying that. I want the PS5 to be more powerful. I will be buying the PS5 at launch and not the series X, only because of Playstation VR2.
If Microsoft supports Oculus and/or Valve's VR headsets for the Series X, then I will consider going with Xbox, but as things stand, I will instead be getting the PS5. But there is just no chance the PS5 will be as large as the series x to be able to pack 50+ cus.
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Exactly, the VS dev/debugging environment is actually pretty good. The rest of the tool chain is likely Clang based as we have seen that Sony has committed patches to Clang in the past for improved Jaguar and Zen(?) support.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
its only 10gb for vram. the rest is for os and 'system ram' like the ps3.
they say games can use up to 3.5 gb of this slower ram, but games need to be built around the fastest ram so technically only 10 gb of vram is available.
they better have some magic going on with the ssd otherwise ram is going to become a serious bottleneck next gen.
Null_Key
Neo Member
And you based this on "facts" ? Do you have anything to support your claim?
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Watching through this one right now. TBH I think I understand why they used Minecraft to show off the RT. Yeah, it might be a meme to us here, but it's just a lot easier for the average gamer outside of these kind of forums to visually understand and more immediately see the difference in real-time what RT is using a game like Minecraft.
You can be someone who's not very knowledgeable on graphics tech and watch the RT in Minecraft and immediately see the difference, like going from a game demo showcasing a jump from PS1 to PS2 in graphics fidelity. We keep talking about diminishing returns all the time and it's a very real thing, so it's actually kinda clever they used a game as visually simple as Minecraft to show off the RT since the average person can just notice it right out of the gate, and don't need a video zooming in pointing out the very specific parts or pixels of the frame showing off the effect.
Another obvious choice would've probably been a racing game, but from what I'm to understand RT doesn't actually bring that big of a visual boost to racing games because they already use other graphical effects that more or less do a great job simulating reflections on the cars as-is. The benefit of RT to those kind of games would be small vs. the processing power required to implement it. Can't remember where I read this from, but it was someone who seemed to know a lot about graphical programming techniques.
It's kind of like if Nintendo decided to show off ray-tracing with a game like Super Mario Odyssey; I could see the effect being immediately noticeable to the average person and relatively easy to implement without too much optimizing required for framerate performance, similar to the Minecraft demo. Because both that and SMO are visually "simple" game, on a technical level. OTOH, something like the Gears 5 RT they showed off today (granted not optimized, but still) or if Sony decided to show off early RT implementation with, say, GOW4...I think it would be harder to immediately notice the difference because those games already have a lot more going on visually in the technical side, and the viewer would need to be more knowledgeable of what things to spot when looking in order to pick up on the RT effect.
That's kind of the feeling I got watching the Halo:Infinite E3 trailer; was really hard for me to notice the RT without tech videos specifically isolating out the minute instances. But it's not a constant rule on that note, either: the Project Mara teaser, when they get to the living room and hallway shot I can immediately tell RT is being utilized there and it's a game with much more visual complexity than a Minecraft, and I think even the average person would be able to pick up the RT use there as well without it needing to be specifically pointed out to them.
So it kind of really comes down to how it's implemented and optimized in the demonstrations. That said yeah, I understand now why MS chose to use Minecraft to show it off in this instance.
It will hold back lazy developers who want to brute everything through instead of learning intricacies of system in certain setups like RAM config and bandwidth. I'm actually interested in how devs will learn to adjust with the memory setup; I can see smarter devs (or those with more generous publishers) utilizing some nice tricks to make full use of the memory setup as we know of it now.
The 1st-party teams will certainly learn to do this, and maybe also find some clever uses of programming dynamically across the two different memory bandwidths and the virtual cache of the SSD. Maybe it might even be possible to adjust between the SMT/non-SMT modes dynamically through game code when performance instances might favor a higher clock vs. more threads but jumping between the two as needed (this depends on just how much freedom the OS gives to devs for doing this, and they wouldn't be able to do anything that would negatively affect OS stability or operation).
TBH I'm actually pretty excited to see how this stuff can be exploited down the line, gives me some tinges of the old days like SNES/Genesis, Saturn, N64, PS3 etc. where "odd quirks" in the system design forced devs (usually 1st party) to get creative with hardware resources. One thing for sure is that there is definitely a lot of customization going into XSX, much to the message of folks who kept insisting they were simply going to brute force their way to a next-gen console.
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wowbaggerBR
Member
Apollo Helios
Member
Why the hell not? It can have exactly the same APU minus MS solutions and call it a day. But it's Sony we're talking about, PS4 and PS4 Pro had enhancements and secret sauce not found anywhere else and some even found themselves on the next batch of PC parts..... so?
Hawking Radiation
Member
I remember that gif that BG's posted a good couple of pages back where he says the gif represents his vision of Sony and the PS5.
In light of this steady release of info by Microsoft (and Sony's radio silence), that gif makes me now believe Sony is going to wait until near E3 to take all of the spotlight by not only revealing the console and all its features but the new games and services as well.
MS will have gone up against a full PS5 blowout.
This is the Gif I'm talking about.
In light of this steady release of info by Microsoft (and Sony's radio silence), that gif makes me now believe Sony is going to wait until near E3 to take all of the spotlight by not only revealing the console and all its features but the new games and services as well.
MS will have gone up against a full PS5 blowout.
This is the Gif I'm talking about.
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saintjules
Member
Hawking Radiation
Member
A friend still has one. Disgusting looking thing and that damn font. It still irks me how Sony managed to botch the original PS3 in design.
Shambala
Member
Another Japanese culture expert here folks
travisktl
Member
Same reason that Nvidia used Quake 2 to show off ray tracing for PC. Taking an older game and adding ray tracing completely transforms it, opposed to a newer game that already looks great, and it's not as instantly noticeable in some cases.
Apollo Helios
Member
That depends on the customer and their target.
AMD
5700 architecture
also these cards were on first 7nm node while next gen APUs will use 7nm enhanced, apparently it means some parts 7nm EUV some parts 7NP
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Not really; he's probably saying what quite a few others are thinking and these kind of things are screened and rehearsed/questions planned ahead of time. So he wasn't asking anything that wasn't already approved of to be asked.
To look at it another way; whenever Sony's ready to finally give a deep dive on specs MS will be ready to move on to talking about the games more in-depth. And then there's still Lockhart, whatever that is. I think MS wants as much time as possible to talk games in particular, and probably services (Gamepass, Xcloud) as well. Sony wants to do things differently, but both approaches are fine.
Why does it have to be one of those?.
Wouldn't a 256bit bus with 16gbps GDDR6 be 512GB/s?
Hawking Radiation
Member
Nuh uh.
Sony's Playstation division has had a massive revamp in culture during the PS3 life cycle when they did post mortems on the console which included Mark Cerny. Developers became the main source feedback for how future consoles were going to be designed. This is why you have an easy to develop for PS4 and something they are going to improve on going into PS5.
Sony has noted the complaints about the noise and heat regarding PS4 and they've promised a 'premium' console. There's also reports their cooling solution is much more expensive for PS5.
With both next gen consoles putting out so much power, the last thing either company will do is design a box that has thermal limitations which would impact noise and heat massively. Xbox Series X is a beautiful function over form box and i expect Sony will adopt the same stance. It is no longer small vs big consoles. Its 'how can we design a box that can keep these components cool and quiet during operation to an acceptable level'. When you have these constraints, size and compactness takes the back seat.
Consoles are going premium and with premium devices you expect excellent performance.
I will bet money that PS5 final design will be function over form. Thermal efficiency over design flair.
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Apollo Helios
Member
If it were MS would asked for it to be edited out. It is a guess on his part anyway for a rough estimate, not important.
Hawking Radiation
Member
What happens at 22.22 in the video?
Sorry i'm at work at the moment and can't watch the video.
travisktl
Member
Agreed. Osiris mentioned the latest PS5 dev kits being taller, which helped make them cool and whisper quiet. Sounds to me like they might be taking a few cues from the Series X design.
saintjules
Member
Yeah for the sake of the X, I hope it's not just having a big D and not knowing what to do with it. I'm ready to see what games they have coming up. Literally that and price. I'm thankful to have the funds for both Consoles at launch. Can't miss anything that way.
splattered
Member
What 22:22 moment? I didnt catch anything ?
Koopatrol
Member
People say that Sony is investing more in cooling than what they usually do. Form factor could just be one of the reasons why Sony would invest more in cooling. Of course, other possibilities could be 2 GHz clock and the fact that Sony's consoles have historically been noisy.
Matreios Raven
Member
Getting a PS5 and now I’m considering getting an XSX later as well. With potentially 2 monster sized consoles, I’ll need to find a place in my room to stack them.
Hawking Radiation
Member
That is my expectation for the final design of PS5. Something that is double the height of PS4 Pro but with a smaller footprint than that console. I'm thinking of around half the height of Series X but with a slightly wider footprint.
We are NOT getting a PS4 slim or PS4 original type of design for PS5. There will be no possible way such a confined space will be enough to run this system at an acceptable level without sounding like a 747 taking off.
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Moridianae
Member
I admit, I've seen that 13-13.3 number show up a few times in "leaks", not just Tommy Fisher.
I figured he was bogus, but I have to digress on that. Nobody accurately gets the XsX specifications to a T ages ago and it's just a "lucky guess" come the reveal if you ask me.
I feel he faked that picture to throw off the folks who might've been closing in on the leaker.
One thing is for sure--XSX is a ridiculously powerful console, far more than any of us thought possible. I've no doubt that Sony won't be very far behind, if any considering Osiris pegs 12.4 and Tommy pegged 13.2 or .3
I figured he was bogus, but I have to digress on that. Nobody accurately gets the XsX specifications to a T ages ago and it's just a "lucky guess" come the reveal if you ask me.
I feel he faked that picture to throw off the folks who might've been closing in on the leaker.
One thing is for sure--XSX is a ridiculously powerful console, far more than any of us thought possible. I've no doubt that Sony won't be very far behind, if any considering Osiris pegs 12.4 and Tommy pegged 13.2 or .3
Apollo Helios
Member
512GB/s with 16Gbps GDDR6 modules at 256bit bus Wow! It can really be that config. Look
Although the table is for premium 18Gbps modules, for cheaper 16Gbps modules PS5 can indeed might give 512GB/s with 256bit bus. I don't know what Max capacity can be though! MS's 16GB might be inherent to this table, and going bigger might have required going wider on the bus too, and DF video clearly states they've hit a signaling wall within the constrains on their target spec and they had to go mixed capacity and in between bus width.
Bus width 256-bit < 320-bit < 384-bit
Max Capacity 16GB < ??? < 24GB
Apollo Helios
Member
Hinted at the release like six months later. Like is keyword as he was just guessing and it is a figure of speech.
512GB/s with 16Gbps GDDR6 modules at 256bit bus Wow! It can really be that config. Look
Although the table is for premium 18Gbps modules, for cheaper 16Gbps modules PS5 can indeed might give 512GB/s with 256bit bus. I don't know what Max capacity can be though! MS's 16GB might be inherent to this table, and going bigger might have required going wider on the bus too, and DF video clearly states they've hit a signaling wall within the constrains on their target spec and they had to go mixed capacity and in between bus width.
Bus width 256-bit < 320-bit < 384-bit
Max Capacity 16GB < ??? < 24GB
Microsoft could have easily gone with 20GB by just using the higher density modules only. Which would be 20GB on 320bit.
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longdi
Banned
Yea i found it strange DF allowed that statement to pass through their video.
Paid shills confirmed!
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Big ups going with both; eventually I'll be picking up both myself but will probably just scout for one early on because I gotta upgrade my PC later this year too.
Watching more of that vid I had another thought pop up: is it perhaps possible games might be able to use both the internal SSD and external custom SSD simultaneously? They both provide the same speed and performance, I'm wondering if there's enough hardware decompression on the APU to load and run from both simultaneously because that would be pretty cool if possible.
I think, because the custom SSD would be optional, devs wouldn't be able to program specifically with it in mind, but the OS could utilize it as free additional performance for games. If prices ever get cheap enough maybe it might be possible for very small custom drives (say 32GB, 64GB etc.) to be made and basically ship games on those or include them with physical retail games, so specific games could be programmed with using both drives simultaneously in mind.
Guess you could picture it conceptually like the N64's Expansion Pak or the Saturn's memory expansion cart slot, even if it's non-volatile NAND memory instead of RAM like it was in those cases. Damn, the more I think about it the more intrigued I am with what could be exploited programming-wise on the system down the line, and it's got me very interested to see what neat features Sony will put into PS5 that are anything like this.
It's as close as we'll get to the really nifty exotic features of older systems, so I'll take it!
The guy in the vid said it's crazy MS's revealing specs six or so months ahead of launch. Guess some people could try interpreting it as a slip, but I think it's one of those things MS's aware someone would eventually bring up and wouldn't have kept it in if they didn't want it there, essentially.
Meaning they aren't flustered with answering people curious about that.
EDIT: Oh he said six months didn't he? Oh wow, that could be a whoopsie indeed. He said "like" there, but dat six months doe xD...
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Gamerguy84
Member
Two series x in SLI in your entertainment center. I wonder how many more TF the cloud will add... /jk
Apollo Helios
Member
This is what I would call a shot across the bow with a silver bullet.
We have our smoking gun ladies and gents.
Is the metaphors enough? Lol
Is this the first time this gen Sony uses the term "the world's fastest console"?
kyliethicc
Member
16 GB GDDR6 & 512 GB/s. 16 Gbps w/ 256 bit bus = 512 GB/s bandwidth
kyliethicc
Member
18 Gbps + 256 bit bus = 576 GB/s
16 Gbps + 256 bit bus = 512 GB/s
14 Gbps + 256 bit bus = 448 GB/s
kyliethicc
Member
Fastest load times ? fastest vs most powerful.... interesting the way Microsoft and Sony phrase things
longdi
Banned
Sony will probably use the 3rd choice. 448gbs it is. Doubt they are courageous enough to run ram speeds that high in sff case
That's the reason Ms engineers went split 320bit memory. It is less elegant and as gtx970 showed, split is shit. But i guess they can scale things up in a future pro model with that sweet 320bit bus. Two steps ahead thinking
Sony is just contended to hit the 399 sweet spot for the masses
What's Xsx split ram speeds running at btw?
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