VFXVeteran
Banned
Fine.
So now you have to agree,
More TF != can't play the game. Neither does SSD I/O < 7Gb/s != can't play the game the way it was meant to be played.
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Fine.
So now you have to agree,
More TF != can't play the game. Neither does SSD I/O < 7Gb/s != can't play the game the way it was meant to be played.
VFXVeteran
Banned
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WhispersintheWind
Member
I think we have a better chance of nicely and peacefully asking Covid-19 to leave the earth and never to return. But you know that’s mho...
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Lunatic_Gamer
Member
Thank you, Project xCloud Founding Members!
A message of thanks from Phil Spencer, Head of Xbox
On behalf of Team Xbox, I want to personally thank you for being a Project xCloud Founding Member. Your feedback during the Project xCloud Preview has made cloud gaming better for everyone. To show our gratitude, we’ve put together this short video message just for you.We recorded it from our homes, so I hope you will excuse our grainy cameras and shaky hands as we share our heartfelt thank you.
Got this on my email today. The video ain’t listed on YouTube.
A message of thanks from Phil Spencer, Head of Xbox
On behalf of Team Xbox, I want to personally thank you for being a Project xCloud Founding Member. Your feedback during the Project xCloud Preview has made cloud gaming better for everyone. To show our gratitude, we’ve put together this short video message just for you.We recorded it from our homes, so I hope you will excuse our grainy cameras and shaky hands as we share our heartfelt thank you.
Got this on my email today. The video ain’t listed on YouTube.
MasterCornholio
Member
kyliethicc
Member
You're more rude and condescending than I am. That's for sure.
My comments you quoted were talking about how the limitations of an I/O syetem affects game design. And how therefore, the different systems will get/not get games, and how it affects the baseline of tech the multi-platform games are built around.
If a game is designed around being able to move 9 GB/s of data into memory in 1 second on PS5, and a PC version of the game can only deliver a baseline of say 2 GB/s, then that would affect the game's design.
RTX IO is still dependent on the user's SSD. If a user has a slower SATA SSD or even a HDD, RTX IO will not fix that fundamental hold up. Nor will a PCIe Gen 3x4 M.2 SSD at say 3.5 GB/S. A developer who built their game's streaming tech around being able to load 8-9 GB/s will not be able to easily or ever port that game to a slower I/O setup.
This is obvious stuff you're well aware of. This is why I know you're trolling.
Here's what you quoted:
"No PC is not even close to the PS5 I/O. Most PCs use SATA SSDs at less than 1 GB/s. And lots of other PCs use HDDs.
The PC market will never be unified enough to require as minimum spec a PCIe Gen4x4 SSD at 5 or 6 GB/S raw read.
Until then, no PS5+PC (or +Xbox) game can actually take full advantage of the PS5 I/O."
This is about what games on PS5 can be built to take full advantage of the PS5 I/O speeds. A fixed closed architecture.
The PC market relies on variable specs. Min specs, recommended specs. It widens the volume of customers.
PC games will not be able to require a PCIe Gen4x4 M.2 SSD anytime soon. Therefore if the min required spec for a drive is a SATA SSD at say 500 MB/s read speeds, that sets the baseline for how the game can be designed for the PC market.
Unless a PC game can be require to have a 5-6 GB/s PCIe Gen4x4 SSD, then the baseline I/O spec the game is built around will be below the PS5's SSD. Slower. This affects how the game is made.
Therefore if Guerrilla Games were to reboot SOCOM for PS5 but also for PC, they would need to consider how many, how wide of an audience on PC they would like to target. Most PC users do not have fast NVMe SSDs.
So unless the game is being designed exclusively for the PS5, and its I/O, the game designers will need to account for lower speed I/O of lower end PC users they would like to sell the game to and/or also the Xbox and Switch.
Again, you know this. You're pretending to not understand the context of what I was saying. Good try troll.
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Shmunter
Member
Wouldn’t have it any other way. Cut backs need to be made when there is less to go around.
Mahavastu
Member
He was "predicting" so many dates until now, one has to be correct, just by chance
kyliethicc
Member
Wrong. Not symmetrical or equivalent on how they affect game design. Facts.
Lethal01
Member
Absolutely, a lot of people just know they will feel the impacts of a worse SSD more than lower resolution or worse shadows.
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xGreir
Member
Exactly, and I don't know how this is even a discussion.
The average consumer may lack the experience to notice some more pixels/better shadows/their assholes reflected on something, but what they will notice for sure are longer loading screens, the loading screens indeed, the pop-in, the distance of vision, object quantity, etc, and those are mainly possible thanks to a higher bandwidth, and faster SSD speed to stream them all, aside CPU/GPU.
At this point, this is quite basic, and the main selling resource of the new generation, so... It is a pure lack of information, or it is just straightforward damage control.
devilNprada
Member
Dude he's trying to get the thread locked. I believe because people in this thread don't see him as the genus insider he seems to always claim he is...
VFXVeteran
Banned
Let's get this straight. The consoles will be bottlenecked by what they can render. Period. There is no infinite visuals here. You can't throw movie quality assets in a game with PBR shaders and expect to get a good running game. For every single extra triangle introduced into the graphics pipeline, the GPU has to render it's pixels with shaders that have become extremely complex. Many of you talk like all of this data goes into a vaccum after it's streamed into the GPU's VRAM and outputted to the TV with 0 processing. You continuously avoid the cold hard fact that the GPU is the bottleneck in these consoles.
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I go away for a few hours and check on this thread and lately its been nothing but...
MasterCornholio
Member
Faithless83
Banned
It was explained time and time again. We don't need to fill the ram entirely with a scene as before due to the I/O speed. This by itself will save a lot of resources. Hence the ram sizes not being 32GB for consoles and what will push everything forward. It's not that the render is infinite, is that it will be a lot better used this time around.
ArcaneNLSC
Member
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
MasterCornholio
Member
VFXVeteran
Banned
I don't care if you fill the RAM. How are you going to process all the geometry? How are you going to run ambient occlusion at a good FPS? How are you going to run the light loop with so many triangles and compute it's shaded color?
xGreir
Member
.... God.
I've read so many... Silly things in this very thread lately, that it doesn't even surprise me anymore.
It is like the whole discussion around which console will be "holding back" this Gen.
You know what? No one can be sure, because it is up to the developers. Even then, if you want to be really pragmatic, it is not that complicated:
-Third parties will be holded back by the Xbox ecosystem in general, not only because the XboxS, buuuuut not by a lot (they were not going to squeeze the consoles too much to begin with either way)
Why? Some mismatching btw GPUs is not that relevant (maybe with XS, but I would appreciate if developers forget about it quickly, we can't know yet), but half the SSD speed just can't be replaced.
You can lower textures, erase RayTracing, cut resolution in half, but there must be something to be cut first. If u can't stream it quick enough to lower all its assets, you just.... Cut it from all the versions.
-First and second parties are going to hold back the Xbox brand only, but that was just to be expected with the only 1 hardware piece approach from Sony, and the whole "Xbox ecosystem" created by Microsoft, pushing developers to make their games for at least, 2 consoles, and the whole PC community, and that, versus just 1 console approach, is going to be noticeable
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jasondefaoite
Member
You are dreaming. Let it go. There is no more expensive DE model. The optical drive model isn't the cheaper SKU no matter how much you want it to be.
thebigmanjosh
Member
This thread has been a dumpster fire for almost a year.
It’s not the thread we want, but it’s the one we need.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
I hate checking this thread, cause I gotta catch up literally 20 plus pages, just to get caught up. Now it seems like SSD is back to being the GPU and CPU? I guess actual FUD gets thrown around more by the people that accuse other people of spreading it. Who would've guessed?
Quick question, how fast was the read speeds on ratchet and clank? How fast were they in UE5 demo? If you don't know even an approximate, it's impossible to say what's possible or not.
Also I'm pretty sure consoles aren't 32gb of ram, not because SSD, but because of pricing. You wouldn't want to get taxed for double the ram. I'm interested to see the ps5 pricing in comparison to what MS has. It would also explain why so many fanboys are back to the SSD>>GPU antics. Can't wait for them to release to put and end to everyone spreading
FUD
Quick question, how fast was the read speeds on ratchet and clank? How fast were they in UE5 demo? If you don't know even an approximate, it's impossible to say what's possible or not.
Also I'm pretty sure consoles aren't 32gb of ram, not because SSD, but because of pricing. You wouldn't want to get taxed for double the ram. I'm interested to see the ps5 pricing in comparison to what MS has. It would also explain why so many fanboys are back to the SSD>>GPU antics. Can't wait for them to release to put and end to everyone spreading
FUD
Faithless83
Banned
Isn't that part of the point of rendering only what you can see?
HAL-01
Member
What are your thoughts on Unreal 5? I was under the impression that's what they promised in the demo
Faithless83
Banned
Didn't we have this conversation somewhere else?
Anyway, we have the numbers already is that so hard to understand? 5GB/s of compressed data. Use it as a base.
VFXVeteran
Banned
It's what you can see that's the issue. Scene complexity. For example, in FS2020. The PS5 I/O is only going to help with streaming in data so that you don't get hitching every few seconds of flying. That's great! But if my GPU can't render all the ambient occlusion from all those trees, and you have to cut them out from the rendering pipeline so that the GPU doesn't get bogged down, what's the point?
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
So they are maxing it out? No room for improvement at all? That doesn't sound promising for ps5 to be maxed out before it even releases.Didn't we have this conversation somewhere else?
Anyway, we have the numbers already is that so hard to understand? 5GB/s of compressed data. Use it as a base.
So let me ask you again, since it shouldn't be so hard to understand. What are the actual read speeds for the two examples I quoted you from? Do you know the actual numbers are? Or will you try and weasel your way out again? If you are, cool. Just don't try and undermine my or others intelligence if you have no clue what the actual read speeds
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VFXVeteran
Banned
The geometry in that demo was highly tessellated. Great! But there were several instances of the same geometry too. Not so great! The lighting and shading was OK. Not top notch and not large in scope (you could even see the latency with their lumen GI tech) And still the demo could only muster 1440p @ 30FPS. Excellent fast I/O system for streaming in highly detailed assets, BUT bottleneck starved GPU leads to limits in rendering.
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ArcaneNLSC
Member
Faithless83
Banned
Yeah the flying scenario is the only one that we should think SSD will help the rendering. You do know that we can't fly in 80% of games, right? There are a lot of other uses out there and in all of them my logic applies. So yeah, different implementations for different cases as we see in the industry since forever. You of all people should know this, being working on VFX and all.
And I won't even mention the jump this will bring to VR in the future.
3liteDragon
Member
Other than the few key points discussed at the Road to PS5 GDC talk, we don't even have a die shot of the PS5 APU and we don't have ALL the details about the architecture. Until we do, we really don't know where the actual bottleneck is, out of everything that's been revealed for PS5 so far, the only POTENTIAL bottleneck I see is the memory bandwidth (448 GB/s). Until we get all the details, all we can do for now is speculate on the GPU's capabilities.
So it's disingenuous to go around and say shit like this without knowing everything about the hardware and all it's features and then somehow not expect to get any pushback on what you said.
bitbydeath
Member
LOL. Is that who you’re arguing with? You should just put him on ignore. He only pretends to be dumb to get a rise out of people and you’re taking the bait.
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Faithless83
Banned
God you're dense.
It's speed is 5GB/s compressed data. Why would speed be a problem to be maxed out again?
The implementation varies on what data was compressed and could reach 20GB/s in "best case scenario".
So yeah, at least 5gb/s of compressed data. Do you know anything that is developed using this speed in GPU format?
No, because the examples you mentioned are industry firsts. We'll have more games developed around this tech soon, no need to fret. Was this clarification enough? If not, watch the Road to PS5 video.
devilNprada
Member
Yeah but only 2% of the population care about VR!
You know the old argument "If I don't care about it nobody does!"
Faithless83
Banned
Thanks for the warning, I'm fully aware of the type.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
You need high bandwidth for true 4K and raytracing. Even the 2080 Ti can be bandwidth starved in today's games. Imagine not having dedicated raytracing cores like tensor cores, and having less bandwidth, trying to achieve the same. No amount of SSD can change this, as you need to render that data.
I'm dense, but you think a car that can go 190mph, can only travel at 190mph? Well... Can't really argue with someone who doesn't understand how it works to begin with....God you're dense.
It's speed is 5GB/s compressed data. Why would speed be a problem to be maxed out again?
The implementation varies on what data was compressed and could reach 20GB/s in "best case scenario".
So yeah, at least 5gb/s of compressed data. Do you know anything that is developed using this speed in GPU format?
No, because the examples you mentioned are industry firsts. We'll have more games developed around this tech soon, no need to fret. Was this clarification enough? If not, watch the Road to PS5 video.
So you are saying ratchet and clank demo maxed out the i/o speed? It seems like you are implying that, but you won't answer it directly. I've seen the video, but you haven't answered that question. I'm really curious if you'll keep weaseling out, over and over. If you can't answer for the third time, don't even bother replying. I'm all for discussions.
devilNprada
Member
Why would it go slower? Serious question I dunno.
Faithless83
Banned
You are comparing a car to an SSD.
Let me try one last time to put into terms you'll understand.
This gen, HDD was maxed out from the get-go, right? It made developers use it to the max and duplicating assets in the disk was a part of trying to improve it. Developers will work around limitations to a point.
PS5 SSD is also maxed out day one, doesn't mean devs won't explore the best ways to use it.
That said, I won't reply to your ssd questions again. It got old in the Mustard Race thread already. The information is out there, seek it yourself instead of pointing fingers and calling FUD if you don't understand how it works.
MasterCornholio
Member
Maybe he's making a reference to rumors of the SSD overheating and throttling?
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Max speed =/= actual speed. Never said it was slower, but more so asking if that was max speed.
You are comparing a car to an SSD.
Let me try one last time to put into terms you'll understand.
This gen, HDD was maxed out from the get-go, right? It made developers use it to the max and duplicating assets in the disk was a part of trying to improve it. Developers will work around limitations to a point.
PS5 SSD is also maxed out day one, doesn't mean devs won't explore the best ways to use it.
That said, I won't reply to your ssd questions again. It got old in the Mustard Race thread already. The information is out there, seek it yourself instead of pointing fingers and calling FUD if you don't understand how it works.
Can you show me the Carfax of actual speeds? I haven't seen a write up or confirmation yet. Care to provide one?
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HAL-01
Member
fuck, hes right
Insomniac please slow your game down please we can't have it go that fast this early in the gen what will they say
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Nah. I'm not doubting the speeds at all. Just haven't been on the forums much over the past 4 days. I must have missed any write up that people are saying. I'm just asking for a link, cause I'm not seeing anything on page 1 or 2 of general gaming. And must have missed it in this thread. I'll concede if wrong (although I never claimed otherwise, just a curious bystanderd)
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
Slightly related to your topic, RedGamingTech in his PS5 exclusive leak info mentioned that the PS5's SSD has the ability to be updated with newer and updated compression algorithms. This is similar to how the PS4's HDMI could be updated and allowing support for HDR years after the consoles launch.You are comparing a car to an SSD.
Let me try one last time to put into terms you'll understand.
This gen, HDD was maxed out from the get-go, right? It made developers use it to the max and duplicating assets in the disk was a part of trying to improve it. Developers will work around limitations to a point.
PS5 SSD is also maxed out day one, doesn't mean devs won't explore the best ways to use it.
That said, I won't reply to your ssd questions again. It got old in the Mustard Race thread already. The information is out there, seek it yourself instead of pointing fingers and calling FUD if you don't understand how it works.
With that being said, I imagine the PS5's compressed data speeds could be even greater, maybe from 9-10 GB/s to something like 12-13 GB/s and I'm being conservative with those figures. I am very certain the speed will increase though, otherwise Cerny would not have bothered to even add such a feature.
DeeDogg_
Banned
Please do Sony’s job for them since they’re complacent as hell
Faithless83
Banned
Timestamped:
Done 8GB/s minimum and up to 20GB/s.
Now enlighten us on why is this data so important to you again and what's your point?
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